New poll shows strong anti-Arab sentiment among Israeli Jews

[Dogmaphobe]

Except that they are not antisemitic canards. They occur all the time in these discussions and they effectively shut down discussion from one of issues to one of name calling.

"Jews can do no wrong" and "Jews won't permit criticism of Israel" ARE anti-semitic canards. Modern variations on Jewish superiority/choseness. Comparing Jews to those who unreasonably hate them and to those who accomplished the Shoah is also an anti-semitic canard.

And these call-outs should not shut down the discussion. On the contrary the INTENT of me bringing it up is to discuss the anti-semitism that is so prevalent in these discussions and which underlies the entire conflict. (Like we are doing right now). IF it shuts down the conversation it is because most people are perfectly comfortable in their anti-semitism and do not want to examine it.

If you want to discuss actual issues, why didn't you start a thread on actual issues? There are PLENTY to discuss. Instead you started a thread about a poll which was deliberately invented to draw a parallel between Jewish "racism" and European anti-semitism and the Shoah in order to make Jews look bad. Or to normalize anti-semitism.

Can you find any threads or posts from Team Israel criticizing anything Israel does? If you can't, then the impression Israel can do no wrong in the eyes of it's supporters is hardly a canard is it?

I have certainly seen posts which reasonably criticize Israel's policies from Team Israel. I also have seen posts which explain why they don't criticize Israel for something Team Palestine thinks they should criticize Israel for. I have also spent more than a dozen years on a board where the level of conversation was much higher and where there was significant criticism of specific policies, so I am aware that Team Israel is perfectly capable of it. But again, as I said, we spend so much time here explaining that Jews right to life is actually protected in international law we don't have much time leftover for real discussions. But just for fun, I'll start a thread.

The funny thing is -- none of us have ever actually seen any discussion where calling out antisemites has shut down a discussion.

Quite the contrary, in fact.

 

[Coyote]

What if that marginalized community is Arab citizens of Israel? Do they have a voice to be listened to?

Yes! Absolutely! But then let's talk about the marginalized Arab community in Israel in proper context and let's NOT talk about how Jews are racist on par with European anti-semitism and the Shoah.

Is that antisemitic?

The former is not. The latter is.

I go by Natan Sharansky's three D process, myself -- demonization, double standards and delegitimization.

By studying the many thousands of postings that make up the body of work, the answers come back yes, yes and yes.

Yes. You do. I see it in your thousands of rabidly antimuslim posts all the time. Is bigotry against Palestinians or Arab Israeli’s acceptable in your book, or should it be denounced in the same way all bigotry should be...or are your standards different depending on the perpetrator and the target?

I fully realize you are referring to me and my postings in your coy double speaking way. I challenge you to provide a link where Ihave done so.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

What if that marginalized community is Arab citizens of Israel? Do they have a voice to be listened to?

Yes! Absolutely! But then let's talk about the marginalized Arab community in Israel in proper context and let's NOT talk about how Jews are racist on par with European anti-semitism and the Shoah.

Is that antisemitic?

The former is not. The latter is.

I go by Natan Sharansky's three D process, myself -- demonization, double standards and delegitimization.

By studying the many thousands of postings that make up the body of work, the answers come back yes, yes and yes.

Yes. You do. I see it in your thousands of rabidly antimuslim posts all the time. Is bigotry against Palestinians or Arab Israeli’s acceptable in your book, or should it be denounced in the same way all bigotry should be...or are your standards different depending on the perpetrator and the target?

I fully realize you are referring to me and my postings in your coy double speaking way. I challenge you to provide a link where Ihave done so.

First of all, thank you for the 6 funnies in one day. Much appreciated.

My attitude towards Islam is not the subject of this thread, but yes -- I oppose this political philosophy because it opposes every value I hold dear.

Why should I respect a political philosophy where the originator of such encouraged his followers to rape and in no uncertain terms?

 

[Indeependent]

What have I said that is antisemitic?

The OP seeks to compare the rampant, virulent, unreasonable, unsupportable hatred of Jews simply for being Jews in a place without conflict to simple discrimination of other which also happens to take place in the context of an on-going violent conflict. It seeks to minimize the experience of the Jewish people as being nothing more than regular run-of-the-mill "othering" such as is experienced by all people, all over the world.

You claim the trope which says that "Jews can do no wrong." And you claimed the trope that calling out anti-semitism is specifically to "shut down criticism of Israel". Those are all anti-semitic canards.

Except that they are not antisemitic canards. They occur all the time in these discussions and they effectively shut down discussion from one of issues to one of name calling.

What is antisemitic about calling out discrimination, bias, or injustice in a culture? Why is it acceptable to discuss that when it comes to race issues in America (I have been on a lot of those diacussions too) but becomes antisemitism when directed at Israel? That is not a canard. It is a reality in these conversations.

Can you find any threads or posts from Team Israel criticizing anything Israel does? If you can't, then the impression Israel can do no wrong in the eyes of it's supporters is hardly a canard is it?

You are naive beyond belief.
Being explicitly Jewish greatly increases one’s odds of being attacked by an Arab wielding a weapon.
The less Jewish Jews in Israel don’t want to be thought of as Jews but as humans.

 

[Coyote]

Except that they are not antisemitic canards. They occur all the time in these discussions and they effectively shut down discussion from one of issues to one of name calling.

"Jews can do no wrong" and "Jews won't permit criticism of Israel" ARE anti-semitic canards. Modern variations on Jewish superiority/choseness. Comparing Jews to those who unreasonably hate them and to those who accomplished the Shoah is also an anti-semitic canard.

My comments refer to what is said, here, not out in the larger world and referring to Israel, and opinions there and not Jews generically. Where has Team Israel criticized Israel’s actions or policies towards Arabs? There is an automatic defense every bit as strong and predictable as the rhetoric of those who hate Israel. And how do you effectively end a discussion? Call people anti Semitic.

If it is a canard, why does it happen HERE Shusha? Why are certain things out of bounds when it comes talking about Israel but not with any other country? We can talk about racism in the US, Anti-Semitism among the Palestinians but we can’t talk about bigotry among Israeli Jews? Bigotry is by definition an unreasonable hatred and no culture or group is free of that.

And these call-outs should not shut down the discussion. On the contrary the INTENT of me bringing it up is to discuss the anti-semitism that is so prevalent in these discussions and which underlies the entire conflict. (Like we are doing right now). IF it shuts down the conversation it is because most people are perfectly comfortable in their anti-semitism and do not want to examine it.

Or it’s because people who are looking for a good discussion are sick and tired of having every argument distorted into antisemitism and being dogpiled by Team Israel, or conversely dogpiled by Holocaust deniers. By your logic if I called you a racist and you objected that would be because you are comfortable in your racism and do not want to examine it?

Channel 10 noted that one of the main topics in the CNN survey concerned the Holocaust, saying that it’s generally assumed that studying the genocide of European Jewry makes a person aware of consequences of racism and are less likely to be anti-Semitism. So in its poll, the TV station said it wanted to learn “what do the Jews, who demand world remember the Holocaust, know about the annihilation of other peoples?”

The results showed that an overwhelming majority of Israeli Jews — between 70-80% — said they knew “very little” or “nothing at all” about the Armenian, Cambodian or Rwandan genocides.

Don’t you think there is a valid point there? Genocide is genocide...and even though the scale is smaller, it is every bit as devastating to those who went through it. No one people has ownership.

If you want to discuss actual issues, why didn't you start a thread on actual issues? There are PLENTY to discuss. Instead you started a thread about a poll which was deliberately invented to draw a parallel between Jewish "racism" and European anti-semitism and the Shoah in order to make Jews look bad. Or to normalize anti-semitism.

Can you find any threads or posts from Team Israel criticizing anything Israel does? If you can't, then the impression Israel can do no wrong in the eyes of it's supporters is hardly a canard is it?

I have certainly seen posts which reasonably criticize Israel's policies from Team Israel. I also have seen posts which explain why they don't criticize Israel for something Team Palestine thinks they should criticize Israel for. I have also spent more than a dozen years on a board where the level of conversation was much higher and where there was significant criticism of specific policies, so I am aware that Team Israel is perfectly capable of it. But again, as I said, we spend so much time here explaining that Jews right to life is actually protected in international law we don't have much time leftover for real discussions. But just for fun, I'll start a thread.

[/quote]

Where have you seen it here? Link?

And Team Israel has plenty of time for endless threads and posts demonizing Palestinians at a level on par with Team Pali’s demonizing of Israel, surely some real discussion can be squeezed in?[/quote][/quote]

 

[flacaltenn]

With all due respect, Flac, you demonstrated nothing in your first post, since you cannot demonstrate any biased questioning or evaluation of data you haven't seen, nor analyzed. Moreover, your grasp of statistics is severely lacking. (Re-)Coding an answer to a question in such a way that the whole spectrum of the irritation is summed up doesn't preclude analyzing the levels of irritation separately, even in case that wasn't detailed in a newspaper article.

Beg to differ.. In fact -- you're wrong. The ASSERTIONS made in that article illustrate EXACTLY the shoddy mathematical tactics of "Lying with Statistics". Starting with the TITLE of this thread. I showed that MAJOR conclusions REACHED by whomever penned that article don't BEGIN to show "STRONG anti-Arab sentiment among Israeli Jews". Also showed some entirely NON-RIGOROUS statistical statements that NEVER would have the left of head of anyone with science/math background in understanding statistics and their misapplication and abuse. Like ANY form of mathematics, statistics is rigorous language, and phrasing and logical conclusions can only come from well designed questions and data handling.

My entire career is HEAVILY dependent on statistics and drawing inferences and conclusions from data. So stuff your assessment up your ass.

How you "sum up the spectrum" as you put it, is VERY important to HONESTLY presenting conclusions. And I showed an example of setting up the "range" (not spectrum) of the measurement to be taken with 4 levels of "distress" about Arabs. If you wanted to tout a STRONG bias towards Arabs HONESTLY -- you would either

1) Quote the ENTIRE results of the measurement by range class
2) Quote the HIGHER results of the measurement by range class.
3) Just come out and SPECIFY what the HIGHEST DEGREE of bias was measured at.

NONE of that is presented to support the "STRONG bias" title. Instead they integrated ALL votes of range classes that lie ABOVE "no bias at all".. That's dishonest and fails to support the HYSTERIA of the title and conclusions.

 

[flacaltenn]

What the....?

Did anyone this side of insanity claim the poll demonstrated "foaming at the mouth hatred" in Isralis?

Did anyone this side of insanity claim Israelis are worse than the French?

Did anyone this side of insanity claim Israelis are worse than the Americans? Or anyone else?

Because nothing in the article summation of the poll actually supports their premise of STRONG anti-Arab bias among Israeli Jews. And the fact that Jews of deeper faith in Israel had higher scores is devious and deceptive because I showed they represent only 20% of Israeli Jews. Doesn't stand on its own to divide by orthodoxy when the othodoxy is not a MAJORITY (or even a large segment) of Israelis.

The questions are "soft ball" compared to more rigorous scientific polling of Arabs in the Mid East. Asking "How distressed you are about hearing Farsi in public or your kid dating an Arab" dances around the MAIN question of "how do you (Israelis) feel about Arabs?

Pew went right for the measurement.. See page 28 of this PDF for HOW the results SHOULD be presented...
Question to about 20 Arab countries --- 1000 respondents per country. Range includes 5 responses.

Question is --- What is your opinion of Jews? Tracks over several years. In ALL of Israels neighboring countries the prevalent answer was the HIGHEST BIAS answer of "VERY UNFAVORABLE" tracking at 85% to 98% over those several years.

THAT is not "beating around the statistical bush".... That's how you do it..

http://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/pdf/268.pdf

 

[flacaltenn]

Interestingly, in that Pew poll, for Arab CITIZENS of Israel -- the negative opinion of Jews weighed in at about only 35%... THAT also is more significant than any of the questions asked in the poll from the OP...

 

[flacaltenn]

Turns out -- folks who LIVE THE STRUGGLE of bias, racism in their daily lives have a much CLEARER and well discussed viewpoint of these problems ...

Yes. If a marginalized community calls you out, rather than assuming some nefarious dealing on their part, you might want to step back, take a deep breath and hear them.

What if that marginalized community is Arab citizens of Israel? Do they have a voice to be listened to?

Is that antisemitic?

See my last post about Arab citizens of Israel and their opinion of Jews. I'm listening to THEM and the Palestinians. Palestinians generally have NO DESIRE to become citizens of Israel under it's jurisdiction and their opinions of Jews matches the general surrounding Arab population..

Only 35% of Arab citizens of Israel have a "negative opinion" about Jews.
There's a solid data point for ya..

 

[flacaltenn]

What if that marginalized community is Arab citizens of Israel? Do they have a voice to be listened to?

Yes! Absolutely! But then let's talk about the marginalized Arab community in Israel in proper context and let's NOT talk about how Jews are racist on par with European anti-semitism and the Shoah.

Is that antisemitic?

The former is not. The latter is.

I go by Natan Sharansky's three D process, myself -- demonization, double standards and delegitimization.

By studying the many thousands of postings that make up the body of work, the answers come back yes, yes and yes.

Yes. You do. I see it in your thousands of rabidly antimuslim posts all the time. Is bigotry against Palestinians or Arab Israeli’s acceptable in your book, or should it be denounced in the same way all bigotry should be...or are your standards different depending on the perpetrator and the target?

I fully realize you are referring to me and my postings in your coy double speaking way. I challenge you to provide a link where Ihave done so.

Why THIS bigotry and bias issue? Do you have a magic solution for ANY cases of bigotry and bias in ANY corner of the world? Please share..

IMO -- best you can hope for is that folks with no substantial "skin in game" don't get obsessed and pick a side -- thus MAGNIFYING the problem, rather than solving it. The problem solution lies with the affected parties. Not with the coliseum audience.

 

[flacaltenn]

Seventy-four percent of respondents said they get at least a little disturbed by hearing conversation in Arabic in public.

"a little disturbed"??? "disturbed to some degree"?? These are not foaming at the mouth hatred of any one. And you would get HIGHER numbers in Paris from Parisians who hear folks not speaking French. And they would be GREATLY disturbed. Or in America those numbers about "befriending an Arab" would probably be similar --- wouldn't they?

'''''''

The more specific poll asked the follow up question: "What do you feel when you hear conversation in Arabic in public?" and the responses were largely some take on "fear". In the context of the conflict, specifically in the context of the intifadas in Israel, that fear response makes sense. Is it discriminatory? Sure.

But its also really, really hard not to think about the little baby boy struggling to survive today within that context. And Jews all over the world had public menorah lightings this past week for Hanukkah. Every Jew and every community had to think about having the courage to be publicly Jewish.

Especially in Pittsburgh this year.. But that's a more than yearly event around the world in general.

 

[Shusha]

Where has Team Israel criticized Israel’s actions or policies towards Arabs?

Well, let's start off by saying CLEARLY that Israel has no actions and policies towards Arabs. Clear? Say again for emphasis: Israel. has. no. policy. against. Arabs.

And please be aware you have totally, if inadvertently, hit the nail on the head here. Arabs (and Muslims) DO HAVE A CLEAR POLICY ABOUT JEWS. It exists in Gaza. It exists in Israel. It exists in the "West Bank". It exists in America. It exists in France. It exists in Australia. It exists in Canada. It most certainly exists on this board. It exists everywhere.

Israel, in STARK contrast, has distinct policies towards Arab citizens of Israel, towards Arab residents of Israel, towards Arab terrorists and resistance fighters, towards those unlawfully attempting to cross de facto borders, towards those committing violence, towards Arab (and Muslim) allies.

 

[Shusha]

If it is a canard, why does it happen HERE Shusha? Why are certain things out of bounds when it comes talking about Israel but not with any other country?

Um. It happens here because this is a festering cauldron of anti-semtism?!

Nothing is out of bounds for discussion. I'm just labelling it for what it is. If you choose not to engage because I've called you out on your anti-semitism (general you here, not specifc you) who is shutting down the conversation? Hint: its you.

 

[Shusha]

Bigotry is by definition an unreasonable hatred and no culture or group is free of that.

So let me ask you a question. Do you think that the Jewish people have been subjected to an unusual, unique, or particularly special bigotry in scope, length and pervasiveness?

 

[Shusha]

Genocide is genocide...and even though the scale is smaller, it is every bit as devastating to those who went through it. No one people has ownership.

Genocide is always horrific and abhorrent. Always. Without exception. And obviously emotionally scarring to those who survived it.

BUT, as horrific as those genocides were (Rwanda, Armenia, Cambodia) each was a response to a very specific set of circumstances and limited in scope, time and impact. NO ONE is hunting Cambodians in America and in France and in Australia. NO ONE is suggesting Cambodia is not a legitimate State. NO ONE is suggesting Cambodians unfairly control the media, or are responsible for all the world's wars or hold the majority of the world's wealth. NO ONE is suggesting that Cambodians are not REALLY Cambodians, but just fakes. NO ONE suggests Cambodians should go back to the killing fields. NO ONE questions Cambodians protection in international law to LIFE. And last I checked, Cambodians around the world don't worry about stepping outside their homes wearing symbols of their Cambodian-ness for fear of physical violence against them.

I'm not saying this to minimize the pain and horror and loss of the people of Rwanda and Armenia and Cambodia. Not at ALL. But the Jewish genocide is different. Its on-going. Its world wide. Its pervasive and toxic and transferrable across all cultures and through all time in a way that is just not true of any other genocide.

 

[Mindful]

Genocide is genocide...and even though the scale is smaller, it is every bit as devastating to those who went through it. No one people has ownership.

Genocide is always horrific and abhorrent. Always. Without exception. And obviously emotionally scarring to those who survived it.

BUT, as horrific as those genocides were (Rwanda, Armenia, Cambodia) each was a response to a very specific set of circumstances and limited in scope, time and impact. NO ONE is hunting Cambodians in America and in France and in Australia. NO ONE is suggesting Cambodia is not a legitimate State. NO ONE is suggesting Cambodians unfairly control the media, or are responsible for all the world's wars or hold the majority of the world's wealth. NO ONE is suggesting that Cambodians are not REALLY Cambodians, but just fakes. NO ONE suggests Cambodians should go back to the killing fields. NO ONE questions Cambodians protection in international law to LIFE. And last I checked, Cambodians around the world don't worry about stepping outside their homes wearing symbols of their Cambodian-ness for fear of physical violence against them.

I'm not saying this to minimize the pain and horror and loss of the people of Rwanda and Armenia and Cambodia. Not at ALL. But the Jewish genocide is different. Its on-going. Its world wide. Its pervasive and toxic and transferrable across all cultures and through all time in a way that is just not true of any other genocide.

There's a world wide deadly obsession with Israel.

No doubt about it.

 

[Olde Europe]

So stuff your assessment up your ass.

Thanks.

__________________________________________________

This is the major finding of the OP's article:

Over half of respondents said they agreed to some extent with the statement: “Most Jews are better than most non-Jews because they were born Jews.” Another 17% said they thought statement was not “totally true,” while 20% rejected it completely. Among the 52% who said the statement was “totally true” or “pretty true,” 66% identified as ultra-Orthodox, 45% identified as religious Zionists and 13% as identified as traditionally observant. In stark contrast, only 7.1% of Israelis who identified as secular said they supported the statement.​

It's a clear expression of Jewish supremacy, and it's shown to be most prevalent in orthodox and Zionist groups. Much of the debate on here added further evidence to that finding. That the Times of Israel chose not to include a complete, detailed tabulation of the poll is unfortunate, but it's not in and of itself demonstrating the poll is invalid. Assumptions to the contrary are patently ridiculous.

This is not - NOT - a case of "Look at them Jews! What are they thinking?" Rather, it's a finding repeated over and over again - arguably the human birth defect, a habitual, primordial, and impossible-to-eradicate preference of the in-group over anyone Other. Otherwise worth noting is that answers to any such questions are subject to changes due to the more or less wide-spread public rejection of expression of supremacy, and thus answers to the same or similar questions by different societies, or by even different groups within the same society, may differ mostly on account of being not perfectly forthright. The finding, unsurprising as it is, stands, and no amount of "Look at them Arabs/French/Germans/Americans/etc! What are they thinking?" will detract from it. Rather, as stated before, it's an unwitting confirmation of the finding.

That sentiment, that birth defect, is in and of itself problematic. It is becoming more problematic the less we are aware of it, and the more it is allowed to influence policy-making, especially in combination. The poll (and all similar polls in other societies) should be lauded for shining a light on this state of affairs, on what and who we are, the good, the bad, and the ugly. Alas...

 

[rylah]

So stuff your assessment up your ass.

Thanks.

__________________________________________________

This is the major finding of the OP's article:

Over half of respondents said they agreed to some extent with the statement: “Most Jews are better than most non-Jews because they were born Jews.” Another 17% said they thought statement was not “totally true,” while 20% rejected it completely. Among the 52% who said the statement was “totally true” or “pretty true,” 66% identified as ultra-Orthodox, 45% identified as religious Zionists and 13% as identified as traditionally observant. In stark contrast, only 7.1% of Israelis who identified as secular said they supported the statement.​

It's a clear expression of Jewish supremacy, and it's shown to be most prevalent in orthodox and Zionist groups. Much of the debate on here added further evidence to that finding. That the Times of Israel chose not to include a complete, detailed tabulation of the poll is unfortunate, but it's not in and of itself demonstrating the poll is invalid. Assumptions to the contrary are patently ridiculous.

This is not - NOT - a case of "Look at them Jews! What are they thinking?" Rather, it's a finding repeated over and over again - arguably the human birth defect, a habitual, primordial, and impossible-to-eradicate preference of the in-group over anyone Other. Otherwise worth noting is that answers to any such questions are subject to changes due to the more or less wide-spread public rejection of expression of supremacy, and thus answers to the same or similar questions by different societies, or by even different groups within the same society, may differ mostly on account of being not perfectly forthright. The finding, unsurprising as it is, stands, and no amount of "Look at them Arabs/French/Germans/Americans/etc! What are they thinking?" will detract from it. Rather, as stated before, it's an unwitting confirmation of the finding.

That sentiment, that birth defect, is in and of itself problematic. It is becoming more problematic the less we are aware of it, and the more it is allowed to influence policy-making, especially in combination. The poll (and all similar polls in other societies) should be lauded for shining a light on this state of affairs, on what and who we are, the good, the bad, and the ugly. Alas...

The only major finding of the OP, is that Jewish acceptance of the other is totally disproportionate to the hate they've received throughout history.

 

[Mindful]

^Look at them Arabs/French/Germans/Americans/etc^

Just look. A lot of them are Jews too. Would you believe!

And were, during Third Reich Times, till Hitler took their citizenship away from them. Just because they were Jews.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

So stuff your assessment up your ass.

Thanks.

__________________________________________________

This is the major finding of the OP's article:

Over half of respondents said they agreed to some extent with the statement: “Most Jews are better than most non-Jews because they were born Jews.” Another 17% said they thought statement was not “totally true,” while 20% rejected it completely. Among the 52% who said the statement was “totally true” or “pretty true,” 66% identified as ultra-Orthodox, 45% identified as religious Zionists and 13% as identified as traditionally observant. In stark contrast, only 7.1% of Israelis who identified as secular said they supported the statement.​

It's a clear expression of Jewish supremacy, and it's shown to be most prevalent in orthodox and Zionist groups. Much of the debate on here added further evidence to that finding. That the Times of Israel chose not to include a complete, detailed tabulation of the poll is unfortunate, but it's not in and of itself demonstrating the poll is invalid. Assumptions to the contrary are patently ridiculous.

This is not - NOT - a case of "Look at them Jews! What are they thinking?" Rather, it's a finding repeated over and over again - arguably the human birth defect, a habitual, primordial, and impossible-to-eradicate preference of the in-group over anyone Other. Otherwise worth noting is that answers to any such questions are subject to changes due to the more or less wide-spread public rejection of expression of supremacy, and thus answers to the same or similar questions by different societies, or by even different groups within the same society, may differ mostly on account of being not perfectly forthright. The finding, unsurprising as it is, stands, and no amount of "Look at them Arabs/French/Germans/Americans/etc! What are they thinking?" will detract from it. Rather, as stated before, it's an unwitting confirmation of the finding.

That sentiment, that birth defect, is in and of itself problematic. It is becoming more problematic the less we are aware of it, and the more it is allowed to influence policy-making, especially in combination. The poll (and all similar polls in other societies) should be lauded for shining a light on this state of affairs, on what and who we are, the good, the bad, and the ugly. Alas...

You talk about "rejection of supremacy" while offering your full and complete support to those who follow a very doctrine of supremacy as they persecute a small minority.

You offer many flowery words while being a most salient example of this "human birth defect" you mention.

If the poll shows anything, it shows that Jewish people are remarkably free from this supposed defect, even to the degree of their tolerance for those such as you actively persecuting them. You and the other antisemites here single them out in ways you single out NO other group in the world.