New poll shows strong anti-Arab sentiment among Israeli Jews

[Mindful]

Out of 9 million or less, what does Israel do with the 3.8 billion we give them a year?

You ask as if that were a secret. It's overwhelmingly an export subsidy for American, mass-murderous war-making toys.

Too much subjective rhetoric there.

 

[Mindful]

Very interesting article, the poll was done to parallel another poll done on anti-semitism in Europe. Interestingly, but not unsurprising (as it is similar in many societies) the more secular, the more tolerant.

New poll shows strong anti-Arab sentiment among Israeli Jews

Channel 10 said they commission the poll from the IDI to “examine how racism, which underpins anti-Semitism, is being expressed by the Jewish Israeli public.

Th TV station said it recycled some of the questions asked in the CNN poll to uncover the Jewish attitudes of living with “the other.”

Channel 10 noted that one of the main topics in the CNN survey concerned the Holocaust, saying that it’s generally assumed that studying the genocide of European Jewry makes a person aware of consequences of racism and are less likely to be anti-Semitism. So in its poll, the TV station said it wanted to learn “what do the Jews, who demand world remember the Holocaust, know about the annihilation of other peoples?”

The results showed that an overwhelming majority of Israeli Jews — between 70-80% — said they knew “very little” or “nothing at all” about the Armenian, Cambodian or Rwandan genocides.

My 1st reaction to this Jerusalem Post poll was "they should know better than to present statistics that don't explain the significance". My 2nd reaction was -- "well their audience is LARGELY Israeli who KNOW the context of those numbers"..

On my "favorites" book shelf behind me is small paperback that was assigned to me in a Statistics class. It's called "How to LIE with Statistics". Only book I've ever read cover to cover three times. Because it outlines how you can paint a rembrandt or a warhol from the same painting pallet of raw numbers.

Here's the problem...

See the 2 darkest slices of Jews in Israel by "orthodoxy"?? That 22% is your "ultra orthodox". The 78% is the REST of Israeli Jewish population. Keep in mind that 13% of the CITIZENS of Israel are Muslim. And about 8% (IIRC) are various Christian denominations. So those 2 NON-JEWISH factions are ALMOST as large as the "ultra-orthodox" Jewish faction. Furthermore, 33% of ALL the ultra orthodox live in Jerusalem, where the Post is based.

So grouping the results in this poll by orthodoxy are NOT percentage of Israelis who harbor ANY bias towards Arabs. To get to THAT conclusion, you'd have to "normalize" the results as given to the SIZE of those religious denominations in Israel..

For instance, from your article --

“Most Jews are better than most non-Jews because they were born Jews.”

Among the 52% who said the statement was “totally true” or “pretty true,” 66% identified as ultra-Orthodox, 45% identified as religious Zionists and 13% as identified as traditionally observant. In stark contrast, only 7.1% of Israelis who identified as secular said they supported the statement.

This is a very confusing and scientifically sloppy statement. Because the percentages given add to 131%. So there's something "not kosher" with that statement. Largely it's because it's not a strict classification by RELIGIOUS affiliation. They mixed religious affiliation with "Zionist zeal". And there are plenty of "near secular Jews" with Zionist tendencies.

But even after tossing out the class that doesn't match the others (Zionism) -- That 66% of ultra orthodox being only 20% (or so) of the Israeli population represents only 13% of all Israeli Jews. That's a different story entirely -- aint it?

That's not even about Arab bias actually. It's just a statement about the cultural comparisons of the better life that exists in a relatively free and tolerant Israel -- versus the general Arab state of affairs in the Mid East. Israel is a place where you can have a Gay parade and not be mowed down in the streets. Or HAVE "the other" represented in your Congress.


Then there's a bunch of "weak" statements that appear to be racist indictments.

Seventy-four percent of respondents said they get at least a little disturbed by hearing conversation in Arabic in public.

Another 88% of respondents said they would be disturbed to some degree if their son were to befriend an Arab girl. The number climbed to 90% when respondents were asked about their daughter befriending an Arab boy.

"a little disturbed"??? "disturbed to some degree"?? These are not foaming at the mouth hatred of any one. And you would get HIGHER numbers in Paris from Parisians who hear folks not speaking French. And they would be GREATLY disturbed. Or in America those numbers about "befriending an Arab" would probably be similar --- wouldn't they?

That's because polls are only as good as the questions they ask. And the RESULTS are generally culled to "write a predefined story"... For instance -- that question about your kid "befriending an Arab" COULD HAVE BEEN asked by asking ---

If you're son was to befriend an Arab girl -- would you be ____ ???

1) Not disturbed at all
2) A little disturbed
3) Moderately disturbed
4) Greatly disturbed.

Right from the book on "how to lie with statistics" -- this is an example of only presenting a highly biased "cut-off" point for the analysis. By just excluding the folks on the measurement scale who are "not disturbed at all", you've biased the analysis. It doesn't really measure much at all. Does it? It bundles everyone with even a TWINGE of bias with folks who have serious Arab bias issues.

Using those 4 answer choices I gave, and making the cut-off point at "Moderately Disturbed or greater" -- would have represented a MUCH BETTER and mathematically sound measure of Israeli bias against Arabs. MAYBE they polled BOTH ways. And when they did not get the story they wanted. They backed off to asking ONLY if they would be " a little disturbed" or MORE. I'm a little disturbed when my daughter dates a raging snowflake. No Actually -- I'm "greatly disturbed"..

Sorry for the lecture. But the public is preyed on constantly with statistics and polls. And it angers me when the analysis they WRITE is not true to the data or maliciously manipulated. THINK when they toss the basket of numbers at you. Just don't resort to conclusions without at least asking some questions of how the "results" are presented.

And ESPECIALLY -- question the questions. Because the way they are phrased are OFTEN USED to ACHIEVE some preconceived notion for a story line.

Thanks for the breakdown and analysis, that is helpful, certainly more so than aything else that was contributed! I do think though, based not on just this but on other polls and articles from Israeli sources, not Palestinian, that Israel has problems with anti-Arab discrimination and bigotry and it seems taboo to talk about without ending up under a shit pile of antisemite accusations on rhe one the one hand and gleeful trolling from the resident antisemites on the other.

Is Israel a better place place to live than surrouding countries? Absolutely. So is the US, but that doesnt mean we dont have signicant problens with equality, justice, and bigotry to address. And we do...vociferously...we dont shut it down. We talk about the antisemitisme that is endemic among Muslims but talking about discrimination and bigotry from Israel's Jewish population is taboo. We all humans first and foremost and a suspect attitude Otherness is hardwired in our species and especially conservative cultures which covers many muslim cultures and the more conservative Jewish and Christian sects.

Israel does have a problem with inequality and discrimmination. But we are not allowed to talk about it.

Of course you are:

1.8 million Israelis, 842,000 of them children, under poverty line — report

Oh right...we can talk abiut as long as it doesnt involve specific demographic groups.

Youand those who share your ethic hatred have been talking about it with complete freedom here.




Once again, when a large majority harbors genocidal attitudes towards a small minority,it is an incredibly hateful act to claim it is the minority at fault when only a fraction of them hold prejudicial view in return and don't even come CLOSE to the same level of hatred.

The Arabs who call themselves Palestinians for the purpose of propaganda elected those who promise the genocide of Jews in their very charter, yet you and the other antisemies here look right past that in order to focus your hatred on Jews.


onl

.

These discussions here are dishonest, because Israel is treated differently than other nations.

If any other country had acted in the same way as it did with the Gaza aid flotilla--for example, Britain in stopping an IRA-supporting convoy from reaching Northern Ireland--the condemnation and attention would not be at the same level.

 

[Lipush]

Very interesting article, the poll was done to parallel another poll done on anti-semitism in Europe. Interestingly, but not unsurprising (as it is similar in many societies) the more secular, the more tolerant.

New poll shows strong anti-Arab sentiment among Israeli Jews

Channel 10 said they commission the poll from the IDI to “examine how racism, which underpins anti-Semitism, is being expressed by the Jewish Israeli public.

Th TV station said it recycled some of the questions asked in the CNN poll to uncover the Jewish attitudes of living with “the other.”

Channel 10 noted that one of the main topics in the CNN survey concerned the Holocaust, saying that it’s generally assumed that studying the genocide of European Jewry makes a person aware of consequences of racism and are less likely to be anti-Semitism. So in its poll, the TV station said it wanted to learn “what do the Jews, who demand world remember the Holocaust, know about the annihilation of other peoples?”

The results showed that an overwhelming majority of Israeli Jews — between 70-80% — said they knew “very little” or “nothing at all” about the Armenian, Cambodian or Rwandan genocides.

The final sentence shows that we're in need of better education, and hopefully that will change.

The other part of the paragraph doesn't surprise me. Jews and Arabs don't like each other, mostly. Wow. shock.

 

[Lipush]

Very interesting article, the poll was done to parallel another poll done on anti-semitism in Europe. Interestingly, but not unsurprising (as it is similar in many societies) the more secular, the more tolerant.

New poll shows strong anti-Arab sentiment among Israeli Jews

Channel 10 said they commission the poll from the IDI to “examine how racism, which underpins anti-Semitism, is being expressed by the Jewish Israeli public.

Th TV station said it recycled some of the questions asked in the CNN poll to uncover the Jewish attitudes of living with “the other.”

Channel 10 noted that one of the main topics in the CNN survey concerned the Holocaust, saying that it’s generally assumed that studying the genocide of European Jewry makes a person aware of consequences of racism and are less likely to be anti-Semitism. So in its poll, the TV station said it wanted to learn “what do the Jews, who demand world remember the Holocaust, know about the annihilation of other peoples?”

The results showed that an overwhelming majority of Israeli Jews — between 70-80% — said they knew “very little” or “nothing at all” about the Armenian, Cambodian or Rwandan genocides.

I thought that was pretty much known and accepted? Remember Bibi warning that Arabs were daring to vote.

That's highly inaccurate. Bibi didn't "warn" anybody. He called for his own voters to come to put their voice in because the left was rising in polls, that's all.

As much as I dislike the guy, I dislike disinformation even more.

 

[flacaltenn]

And we do...vociferously...we dont shut it down.

You have MAJOR Israeli media taking the "reconciliation" side with Arabs. Are you not aware of this? Ha'aretz. Tikkun, and to some extent the J - Post and several Israeli television channels present "fair and balanced" discussion of Arab-Jew tensions daily. And for the most part do a better job it than we do here in America.

You have 11 to 13% Arab citizenship with adequate representation in the Knesset for balanced discussion in that high govt body. And the 20% of the "ultra-orthodox" that this poll maligns is also the breeding ground for that TINY sect of "Naturei Karta" Jews that don't even RECOGNIZE the Jewish state on religious grounds in Israel or the rest of the world.

Ain't "shut down" in Israel to any great degree. Freedom and liberty of opinion and speech is more alive in Israel than it is in America..

 

[flacaltenn]

Very interesting article, the poll was done to parallel another poll done on anti-semitism in Europe. Interestingly, but not unsurprising (as it is similar in many societies) the more secular, the more tolerant.

New poll shows strong anti-Arab sentiment among Israeli Jews

Channel 10 said they commission the poll from the IDI to “examine how racism, which underpins anti-Semitism, is being expressed by the Jewish Israeli public.

Th TV station said it recycled some of the questions asked in the CNN poll to uncover the Jewish attitudes of living with “the other.”

Channel 10 noted that one of the main topics in the CNN survey concerned the Holocaust, saying that it’s generally assumed that studying the genocide of European Jewry makes a person aware of consequences of racism and are less likely to be anti-Semitism. So in its poll, the TV station said it wanted to learn “what do the Jews, who demand world remember the Holocaust, know about the annihilation of other peoples?”

The results showed that an overwhelming majority of Israeli Jews — between 70-80% — said they knew “very little” or “nothing at all” about the Armenian, Cambodian or Rwandan genocides.

My 1st reaction to this Jerusalem Post poll was "they should know better than to present statistics that don't explain the significance". My 2nd reaction was -- "well their audience is LARGELY Israeli who KNOW the context of those numbers"..

On my "favorites" book shelf behind me is small paperback that was assigned to me in a Statistics class. It's called "How to LIE with Statistics". Only book I've ever read cover to cover three times. Because it outlines how you can paint a rembrandt or a warhol from the same painting pallet of raw numbers.

Here's the problem...

See the 2 darkest slices of Jews in Israel by "orthodoxy"?? That 22% is your "ultra orthodox". The 78% is the REST of Israeli Jewish population. Keep in mind that 13% of the CITIZENS of Israel are Muslim. And about 8% (IIRC) are various Christian denominations. So those 2 NON-JEWISH factions are ALMOST as large as the "ultra-orthodox" Jewish faction. Furthermore, 33% of ALL the ultra orthodox live in Jerusalem, where the Post is based.

So grouping the results in this poll by orthodoxy are NOT percentage of Israelis who harbor ANY bias towards Arabs. To get to THAT conclusion, you'd have to "normalize" the results as given to the SIZE of those religious denominations in Israel..

For instance, from your article --

“Most Jews are better than most non-Jews because they were born Jews.”

Among the 52% who said the statement was “totally true” or “pretty true,” 66% identified as ultra-Orthodox, 45% identified as religious Zionists and 13% as identified as traditionally observant. In stark contrast, only 7.1% of Israelis who identified as secular said they supported the statement.

This is a very confusing and scientifically sloppy statement. Because the percentages given add to 131%. So there's something "not kosher" with that statement. Largely it's because it's not a strict classification by RELIGIOUS affiliation. They mixed religious affiliation with "Zionist zeal". And there are plenty of "near secular Jews" with Zionist tendencies.

But even after tossing out the class that doesn't match the others (Zionism) -- That 66% of ultra orthodox being only 20% (or so) of the Israeli population represents only 13% of all Israeli Jews. That's a different story entirely -- aint it?

That's not even about Arab bias actually. It's just a statement about the cultural comparisons of the better life that exists in a relatively free and tolerant Israel -- versus the general Arab state of affairs in the Mid East. Israel is a place where you can have a Gay parade and not be mowed down in the streets. Or HAVE "the other" represented in your Congress.


Then there's a bunch of "weak" statements that appear to be racist indictments.

Seventy-four percent of respondents said they get at least a little disturbed by hearing conversation in Arabic in public.

Another 88% of respondents said they would be disturbed to some degree if their son were to befriend an Arab girl. The number climbed to 90% when respondents were asked about their daughter befriending an Arab boy.

"a little disturbed"??? "disturbed to some degree"?? These are not foaming at the mouth hatred of any one. And you would get HIGHER numbers in Paris from Parisians who hear folks not speaking French. And they would be GREATLY disturbed. Or in America those numbers about "befriending an Arab" would probably be similar --- wouldn't they?

That's because polls are only as good as the questions they ask. And the RESULTS are generally culled to "write a predefined story"... For instance -- that question about your kid "befriending an Arab" COULD HAVE BEEN asked by asking ---

If you're son was to befriend an Arab girl -- would you be ____ ???

1) Not disturbed at all
2) A little disturbed
3) Moderately disturbed
4) Greatly disturbed.

Right from the book on "how to lie with statistics" -- this is an example of only presenting a highly biased "cut-off" point for the analysis. By just excluding the folks on the measurement scale who are "not disturbed at all", you've biased the analysis. It doesn't really measure much at all. Does it? It bundles everyone with even a TWINGE of bias with folks who have serious Arab bias issues.

Using those 4 answer choices I gave, and making the cut-off point at "Moderately Disturbed or greater" -- would have represented a MUCH BETTER and mathematically sound measure of Israeli bias against Arabs. MAYBE they polled BOTH ways. And when they did not get the story they wanted. They backed off to asking ONLY if they would be " a little disturbed" or MORE. I'm a little disturbed when my daughter dates a raging snowflake. No Actually -- I'm "greatly disturbed"..

Sorry for the lecture. But the public is preyed on constantly with statistics and polls. And it angers me when the analysis they WRITE is not true to the data or maliciously manipulated. THINK when they toss the basket of numbers at you. Just don't resort to conclusions without at least asking some questions of how the "results" are presented.

And ESPECIALLY -- question the questions. Because the way they are phrased are OFTEN USED to ACHIEVE some preconceived notion for a story line.

Thanks for the breakdown and analysis, that is helpful, certainly more so than aything else that was contributed! I do think though, based not on just this but on other polls and articles from Israeli sources, not Palestinian, that Israel has problems with anti-Arab discrimination and bigotry and it seems taboo to talk about without ending up under a shit pile of antisemite accusations on rhe one the one hand and gleeful trolling from the resident antisemites on the other.

Is Israel a better place place to live than surrouding countries? Absolutely. So is the US, but that doesnt mean we dont have signicant problens with equality, justice, and bigotry to address. And we do...vociferously...we dont shut it down. We talk about the antisemitisme that is endemic among Muslims but talking about discrimination and bigotry from Israel's Jewish population is taboo. We all humans first and foremost and a suspect attitude Otherness is hardwired in our species and especially conservative cultures which covers many muslim cultures and the more conservative Jewish and Christian sects.

Israel does have a problem with inequality and discrimmination. But we are not allowed to talk about it.

Of course you are:

1.8 million Israelis, 842,000 of them children, under poverty line — report

Oh right...we can talk abiut as long as it doesnt involve specific demographic groups.

The ONLY thing your poll showed is "minor irritation". It did not truly demonstrate a RAMPANT, undiscussed, underlying hate of Arabs. And if you compare this poll to MORE SPECIFIC polls done by Pew and others of Arab opinion in Arab lands -- the whole issue of DEGREE of bias lands in the lap of Middle East Arabs.

It's a just a fact that has to be dealt with..

 

[Mindful]

And we do...vociferously...we dont shut it down.

You have MAJOR Israeli media taking the "reconciliation" side with Arabs. Are you not aware of this? Ha'aetz. Tikkun, and to some extent the J - Post and several Israeli television channels present "fair and balanced" discussion of Arab-Jew tensions daily. And for the most part do a better job it than we do here in America.

You have 11 to 13% Arab citizenship with adequate representation in the Knesset for balanced discussion in that high govt body. And the 20% of the "ultra-orthodox" that this poll maligns is also the breeding ground for that TINY sect of "Naturei Karta" Jews that don't even RECOGNIZE the Jewish state on religious grounds in Israel or the rest of the world.

Ain't "shut down" in Israel to any great degree. Freedom and liberty of opinion and speech is more alive in Israel than it is in America..

Ha'aretz, particularly.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

And we do...vociferously...we dont shut it down.

You have MAJOR Israeli media taking the "reconciliation" side with Arabs. Are you not aware of this? Ha'aetz. Tikkun, and to some extent the J - Post and several Israeli television channels present "fair and balanced" discussion of Arab-Jew tensions daily. And for the most part do a better job it than we do here in America.

You have 11 to 13% Arab citizenship with adequate representation in the Knesset for balanced discussion in that high govt body. And the 20% of the "ultra-orthodox" that this poll maligns is also the breeding ground for that TINY sect of "Naturei Karta" Jews that don't even RECOGNIZE the Jewish state on religious grounds in Israel or the rest of the world.

Ain't "shut down" in Israel to any great degree. Freedom and liberty of opinion and speech is more alive in Israel than it is in America..

I'm curious as to this accusation by Coyote that subjects cannot be discussed.

To your knowledge, have any posters in this thread had postings removed or othwise been unable to offer their opinions?

If so, is it Coyote who is being prevented from such?

 

[Coyote]

It seems from my perspective, that Israel can do no wrong. It seems to me you used to take a much more balanced approach to these discussions that is harder to see now.

Yes, but realize that it is YOUR perspective. Its coming from you. Its not actually coming from us. Its not actually coming from Team Israel, nor from the Jews on this board. We are constantly saying that we have criticisms of Israel. We would all LOVE to discuss them. We would also LOVE to discuss real solutions. (At least the prolific writers on this board would, I think.) But for the most part, we are too busy countering arguments like, "Jews are not protected persons, therefore, its okay to kill them."

And yes, I used to be softer in my approach. I am horribly naive and when I first came to USMB I took everyone at face value. Now, I've had several years to discuss subjects with everyone and I am more aware of the underlying current of anti-semitism inherent in nearly every one of the posters here. I call it out when I see it.

Israeli Jews are no more or less biased or bigoted or discriminating then other groups but discussing that and it's effect on its Arab citizens or the Palestinians immediately causes an innediate reaction that puts them on a "how dare you crticize" pedistal.

But this thread isn't about the impact of discrimination on Israel's Arab citizens. Its about comparing hatred OF Jews to hatred BY Jews. That's where we have to call you out.

No. It isnt. It is about underlying attitudes that the poll reveals of Jewish Israelis towards Arab Israelis. That is at least part of what the OP showed (but addressing that is apparently antisemitic). And according to the responses here that is an attitude considered to be acceptable by Team Israel.

Frankly I think accusations of anti semitism ARE an overplayed card in this conflict where many arguments get labeled antisemitic simply for calling Israeli Jews on some of the same bias and attitudes you would call other groups (such as the Palestinians) out on like bigotry and discrimination. There are plenty of examples given and ignored in multiple threads, whether it is school funding, housing, infrastructure, the justice system or the fact that Palestinians in Area C are under military justice while Jews enjoy civil law with its associated rights.

 

[Shusha]

I'm curious as to this accusation by Coyote that subjects cannot be discussed.

To your knowledge, have any posters in this thread had postings removed or othwise been unable to offer their opinions?

If so, is it Coyote who is being prevented from such?

She's buying into the trope that call-outs for anti-semitism are specifically a rejection of discussion. They are not.

 

[Coyote]

And we do...vociferously...we dont shut it down.

You have MAJOR Israeli media taking the "reconciliation" side with Arabs. Are you not aware of this? Ha'aretz. Tikkun, and to some extent the J - Post and several Israeli television channels present "fair and balanced" discussion of Arab-Jew tensions daily. And for the most part do a better job it than we do here in America.

You have 11 to 13% Arab citizenship with adequate representation in the Knesset for balanced discussion in that high govt body. And the 20% of the "ultra-orthodox" that this poll maligns is also the breeding ground for that TINY sect of "Naturei Karta" Jews that don't even RECOGNIZE the Jewish state on religious grounds in Israel or the rest of the world.

Ain't "shut down" in Israel to any great degree. Freedom and liberty of opinion and speech is more alive in Israel than it is in America..

So you don't think there is bigotry or antiArab discrimination in Israel?

 

[Coyote]

I'm curious as to this accusation by Coyote that subjects cannot be discussed.

To your knowledge, have any posters in this thread had postings removed or othwise been unable to offer their opinions?

If so, is it Coyote who is being prevented from such?

She's buying into the trope that call-outs for anti-semitism are specifically a rejection of discussion. They are not.

What have I said that is antisemitic?

 

[flacaltenn]

And we do...vociferously...we dont shut it down.

You have MAJOR Israeli media taking the "reconciliation" side with Arabs. Are you not aware of this? Ha'aetz. Tikkun, and to some extent the J - Post and several Israeli television channels present "fair and balanced" discussion of Arab-Jew tensions daily. And for the most part do a better job it than we do here in America.

You have 11 to 13% Arab citizenship with adequate representation in the Knesset for balanced discussion in that high govt body. And the 20% of the "ultra-orthodox" that this poll maligns is also the breeding ground for that TINY sect of "Naturei Karta" Jews that don't even RECOGNIZE the Jewish state on religious grounds in Israel or the rest of the world.

Ain't "shut down" in Israel to any great degree. Freedom and liberty of opinion and speech is more alive in Israel than it is in America..

I'm curious as to this accusation by Coyote that subjects cannot be discussed.

To your knowledge, have any posters in this thread had postings removed or othwise been unable to offer their opinions?

If so, is it Coyote who is being prevented from such?

No major speech crack-downs in this thread. Just a couple way off topic posts removed. Much like YOURS above actually..

But in the interest of fair/balanced, I think you misinterpreted her comment. Don't think it was about USMB at all. More about her general impression of the Israeli/American/World dialogue about the general tensions between Arab and Jews not getting about enough exposure. Or from her perspective at least -- Jewish "innate" bias against Arabs.

Turns out -- folks who LIVE THE STRUGGLE of bias, racism in their daily lives have a much CLEARER and well discussed viewpoint of these problems than those who are 8000 miles away from the conflict IMAGING things about the health of the conciliatory dialogue.

Also true of folks in America who choose to live in highly multi-cultural neighborhoods as I did in Cali. Versus folks in Utah who have "opinions" about multicultural tensions in a Disney fantasy world of mono-culture.

 

[Shusha]

No. It isnt. It is about underlying attitudes that the poll reveals of Jewish Israelis towards Arab Israelis.

Really? And just what ARE those underlying attitudes? Because the OP compares it to European anti-semitism and the Shoah. You do understand that these things are not equivalent to simple discrimination, especially when put in the context of Jewish fear for their safety, yes?

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Very interesting article, the poll was done to parallel another poll done on anti-semitism in Europe. Interestingly, but not unsurprising (as it is similar in many societies) the more secular, the more tolerant.

New poll shows strong anti-Arab sentiment among Israeli Jews

Channel 10 said they commission the poll from the IDI to “examine how racism, which underpins anti-Semitism, is being expressed by the Jewish Israeli public.

Th TV station said it recycled some of the questions asked in the CNN poll to uncover the Jewish attitudes of living with “the other.”

Channel 10 noted that one of the main topics in the CNN survey concerned the Holocaust, saying that it’s generally assumed that studying the genocide of European Jewry makes a person aware of consequences of racism and are less likely to be anti-Semitism. So in its poll, the TV station said it wanted to learn “what do the Jews, who demand world remember the Holocaust, know about the annihilation of other peoples?”

The results showed that an overwhelming majority of Israeli Jews — between 70-80% — said they knew “very little” or “nothing at all” about the Armenian, Cambodian or Rwandan genocides.

My 1st reaction to this Jerusalem Post poll was "they should know better than to present statistics that don't explain the significance". My 2nd reaction was -- "well their audience is LARGELY Israeli who KNOW the context of those numbers"..

On my "favorites" book shelf behind me is small paperback that was assigned to me in a Statistics class. It's called "How to LIE with Statistics". Only book I've ever read cover to cover three times. Because it outlines how you can paint a rembrandt or a warhol from the same painting pallet of raw numbers.

Here's the problem...

See the 2 darkest slices of Jews in Israel by "orthodoxy"?? That 22% is your "ultra orthodox". The 78% is the REST of Israeli Jewish population. Keep in mind that 13% of the CITIZENS of Israel are Muslim. And about 8% (IIRC) are various Christian denominations. So those 2 NON-JEWISH factions are ALMOST as large as the "ultra-orthodox" Jewish faction. Furthermore, 33% of ALL the ultra orthodox live in Jerusalem, where the Post is based.

So grouping the results in this poll by orthodoxy are NOT percentage of Israelis who harbor ANY bias towards Arabs. To get to THAT conclusion, you'd have to "normalize" the results as given to the SIZE of those religious denominations in Israel..

For instance, from your article --

“Most Jews are better than most non-Jews because they were born Jews.”

Among the 52% who said the statement was “totally true” or “pretty true,” 66% identified as ultra-Orthodox, 45% identified as religious Zionists and 13% as identified as traditionally observant. In stark contrast, only 7.1% of Israelis who identified as secular said they supported the statement.

This is a very confusing and scientifically sloppy statement. Because the percentages given add to 131%. So there's something "not kosher" with that statement. Largely it's because it's not a strict classification by RELIGIOUS affiliation. They mixed religious affiliation with "Zionist zeal". And there are plenty of "near secular Jews" with Zionist tendencies.

But even after tossing out the class that doesn't match the others (Zionism) -- That 66% of ultra orthodox being only 20% (or so) of the Israeli population represents only 13% of all Israeli Jews. That's a different story entirely -- aint it?

That's not even about Arab bias actually. It's just a statement about the cultural comparisons of the better life that exists in a relatively free and tolerant Israel -- versus the general Arab state of affairs in the Mid East. Israel is a place where you can have a Gay parade and not be mowed down in the streets. Or HAVE "the other" represented in your Congress.


Then there's a bunch of "weak" statements that appear to be racist indictments.

Seventy-four percent of respondents said they get at least a little disturbed by hearing conversation in Arabic in public.

Another 88% of respondents said they would be disturbed to some degree if their son were to befriend an Arab girl. The number climbed to 90% when respondents were asked about their daughter befriending an Arab boy.

"a little disturbed"??? "disturbed to some degree"?? These are not foaming at the mouth hatred of any one. And you would get HIGHER numbers in Paris from Parisians who hear folks not speaking French. And they would be GREATLY disturbed. Or in America those numbers about "befriending an Arab" would probably be similar --- wouldn't they?

That's because polls are only as good as the questions they ask. And the RESULTS are generally culled to "write a predefined story"... For instance -- that question about your kid "befriending an Arab" COULD HAVE BEEN asked by asking ---

If you're son was to befriend an Arab girl -- would you be ____ ???

1) Not disturbed at all
2) A little disturbed
3) Moderately disturbed
4) Greatly disturbed.

Right from the book on "how to lie with statistics" -- this is an example of only presenting a highly biased "cut-off" point for the analysis. By just excluding the folks on the measurement scale who are "not disturbed at all", you've biased the analysis. It doesn't really measure much at all. Does it? It bundles everyone with even a TWINGE of bias with folks who have serious Arab bias issues.

Using those 4 answer choices I gave, and making the cut-off point at "Moderately Disturbed or greater" -- would have represented a MUCH BETTER and mathematically sound measure of Israeli bias against Arabs. MAYBE they polled BOTH ways. And when they did not get the story they wanted. They backed off to asking ONLY if they would be " a little disturbed" or MORE. I'm a little disturbed when my daughter dates a raging snowflake. No Actually -- I'm "greatly disturbed"..

Sorry for the lecture. But the public is preyed on constantly with statistics and polls. And it angers me when the analysis they WRITE is not true to the data or maliciously manipulated. THINK when they toss the basket of numbers at you. Just don't resort to conclusions without at least asking some questions of how the "results" are presented.

And ESPECIALLY -- question the questions. Because the way they are phrased are OFTEN USED to ACHIEVE some preconceived notion for a story line.

Thanks for the breakdown and analysis, that is helpful, certainly more so than aything else that was contributed! I do think though, based not on just this but on other polls and articles from Israeli sources, not Palestinian, that Israel has problems with anti-Arab discrimination and bigotry and it seems taboo to talk about without ending up under a shit pile of antisemite accusations on rhe one the one hand and gleeful trolling from the resident antisemites on the other.

Is Israel a better place place to live than surrouding countries? Absolutely. So is the US, but that doesnt mean we dont have signicant problens with equality, justice, and bigotry to address. And we do...vociferously...we dont shut it down. We talk about the antisemitisme that is endemic among Muslims but talking about discrimination and bigotry from Israel's Jewish population is taboo. We all humans first and foremost and a suspect attitude Otherness is hardwired in our species and especially conservative cultures which covers many muslim cultures and the more conservative Jewish and Christian sects.

Israel does have a problem with inequality and discrimmination. But we are not allowed to talk about it.

Of course you are:

1.8 million Israelis, 842,000 of them children, under poverty line — report

Oh right...we can talk abiut as long as it doesnt involve specific demographic groups.

The ONLY thing your poll showed is "minor irritation". It did not truly demonstrate a RAMPANT, undiscussed, underlying hate of Arabs. And if you compare this poll to MORE SPECIFIC polls done by Pew and others of Arab opinion in Arab lands -- the whole issue of DEGREE of bias lands in the lap of Middle East Arabs.

It's a just a fact that has to be dealt with..

You and I both know there is no comparison between either the degree nor the prevalence of bias, and you know who else knows that?

Coyote.

.......Yet we have threads like this aimed against Jews anyway.

 

[Shusha]

Frankly I think accusations of anti semitism ARE an overplayed card in this conflict ...

Yes, but you say that because, in my opinion, you don't fully understand how grounded the conflict is in anti-semitism and replacement theology.

 

[Coyote]

And we do...vociferously...we dont shut it down.

You have MAJOR Israeli media taking the "reconciliation" side with Arabs. Are you not aware of this? Ha'aetz. Tikkun, and to some extent the J - Post and several Israeli television channels present "fair and balanced" discussion of Arab-Jew tensions daily. And for the most part do a better job it than we do here in America.

You have 11 to 13% Arab citizenship with adequate representation in the Knesset for balanced discussion in that high govt body. And the 20% of the "ultra-orthodox" that this poll maligns is also the breeding ground for that TINY sect of "Naturei Karta" Jews that don't even RECOGNIZE the Jewish state on religious grounds in Israel or the rest of the world.

Ain't "shut down" in Israel to any great degree. Freedom and liberty of opinion and speech is more alive in Israel than it is in America..

I'm curious as to this accusation by Coyote that subjects cannot be discussed.

To your knowledge, have any posters in this thread had postings removed or othwise been unable to offer their opinions?

If so, is it Coyote who is being prevented from such?

No major speech crack-downs in this thread. Just a couple way off topic posts removed. Much like YOURS above actually..

But in the interest of fair/balanced, I think you misinterpreted her comment. Don't think it was about USMB at all. More about her general impression of the Israeli/American/World dialogue about the general tensions between Arab and Jews not getting about enough exposure. Or from her perspective at least -- Jewish "innate" bias against Arabs.

Turns out -- folks who LIVE THE STRUGGLE of bias, racism in their daily lives have a much CLEARER and well discussed viewpoint of these problems than those who are 8000 miles away from the conflict IMAGING things about the health of the conciliatory dialogue.

Also true of folks in America who choose to live in highly multi-cultural neighborhoods as I did in Cali. Versus folks in Utah who have "opinions" about multicultural tensions in a Disney fantasy world of mono-culture.

And we do...vociferously...we dont shut it down.

You have MAJOR Israeli media taking the "reconciliation" side with Arabs. Are you not aware of this? Ha'aretz. Tikkun, and to some extent the J - Post and several Israeli television channels present "fair and balanced" discussion of Arab-Jew tensions daily. And for the most part do a better job it than we do here in America.

You have 11 to 13% Arab citizenship with adequate representation in the Knesset for balanced discussion in that high govt body. And the 20% of the "ultra-orthodox" that this poll maligns is also the breeding ground for that TINY sect of "Naturei Karta" Jews that don't even RECOGNIZE the Jewish state on religious grounds in Israel or the rest of the world.

Ain't "shut down" in Israel to any great degree. Freedom and liberty of opinion and speech is more alive in Israel than it is in America..

I agree eith you on how much more gets reported in Israeli media. That is where I find most of the interesting articles on Palestinians. Not much really gets reported on culture or attitudes.

 

[Olde Europe]

Oh right...we can talk abiut as long as it doesnt involve specific demographic groups.

The ONLY thing your poll showed is "minor irritation". It did not truly demonstrate a RAMPANT, undiscussed, underlying hate of Arabs. And if you compare this poll to MORE SPECIFIC polls done by Pew and others of Arab opinion in Arab lands -- the whole issue of DEGREE of bias lands in the lap of Middle East Arabs.

It's a just a fact that has to be dealt with..

Now things are really getting out of hand here.

"Minor irritation" is not what that poll showed. No one I've seen, certainly not Coyote, indicated it was about "RAMPANT" hatred.

The alleged, "MORE SPECIFIC" polls of Arab opinion - demonstrating "the whole issue of DEGREE of bias lands in the lap of Middle East Arabs" - are not pertinent to the thread, if they exist at all.

 

[Coyote]

Frankly I think accusations of anti semitism ARE an overplayed card in this conflict ...

Yes, but you say that because, in my opinion, you don't fully understand how grounded the conflict is in anti-semitism and replacement theology.

Dont you think thst sometimes that viewpoint might also distort how you view things?

 

[flacaltenn]

Oh right...we can talk abiut as long as it doesnt involve specific demographic groups.

The ONLY thing your poll showed is "minor irritation". It did not truly demonstrate a RAMPANT, undiscussed, underlying hate of Arabs. And if you compare this poll to MORE SPECIFIC polls done by Pew and others of Arab opinion in Arab lands -- the whole issue of DEGREE of bias lands in the lap of Middle East Arabs.

It's a just a fact that has to be dealt with..

Now things are really getting out of hand here.

"Minor irritation" is not what that poll showed. No one indicated it was about "RAMPANT" hatred.

The alleged, "MORE SPECIFIC" polls of Arab opinion - demonstrating "the whole issue of DEGREE of bias lands in the lap of Middle East Arabs" - are not pertinent to the thread, if they exist at all.

Minor irritation was the selected RANGE for some of the numbers. I showed that in my first thread. Go back and read it.

As to "arab opinion" -- it's already part of the scope of discussing bias of any kind. Was broached by the OP. More on topic than discussing moderators or moderation at least.