Myths and facts about Jerusalem and Temple Mount

[Saigon]

I dunno, that's outta my small league

Right now following our politics, I am left amused. apperently Natanyahu has difficulties creating a normal coalition, because Lapit and Bennett don't want to be in the same government with the bloodsucking Shas party.

My hopes is that he'll have to call for help and then we will have both Bennet and Lapid calling the shots. No more rediculous taxes, no more hilarious decisions when it comes to outside politics.

I have my fingers crossed.

Interesting - I haven't been following this very closely. I was so disappointed that Netanyahu could remain in power....but I'll have to read more about this. I can undertand people not wanting to work with Shas.

My hope is with Hatenuah retaining the Ministry of Justice and negotiations...

 

[irosie91]

from IOLO
Jerusalem. like the rest of Palestine, belongs to the descendants of the original settlers, as everywhere. In Palestine these were mainly th peoplee living there before the nazi colonisation started under the British. The Romans, as everyone knows, were not zionists and didn't go in for ethnic cleansing. The descendants of those who built the Temple are now Muslim or Christian - it happened throughout the Middle East, obviously. Fight racist colonialism NOW!


you give yourself away IOLO----you know nothing about the history of "palestine"

in fact nothing about HISTORY. The agenda of the romans of old times
was their CONCEPT OF PAX ROMANA ----which is not much different from
any other fascist concept----very similar to DAR AL ISLAM----the idea was to
IMPOSE ROMAN CULTURE on the world by destroying the cultures of
"others" The sacking of jerusalem by TITUS was indeed a very
SIGNIFICANT act of ethnic cleansing----in fact rome did a job
on the british isles in the C.E. rendeing it PART OF THE HOLY
ROMAN EMPIRE The nazi code was made by CONSTANTINE
---first emperor of the "HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE" ---its details
were not entirely orginal----they were a RECAP of the concept
of PAX ROMANA with the imposition of christianity thrown in
Constantine's law (codified by his grandson JUSTIN ---into
JUSTINIAN LAW-)-----was the law upon which the INQUISITION
was based. Go right ahead and tell me that the INQUISTION
had nothing to do with "ethnic cleansing"

More for you----the jew who salvaged the HISTORY of the times --
JOSEPHUS FLAVIUS ----suceeded because he agreed to become
a ROMAN CITIZEN ------he "collaborated" Had he not
COLLABORATED ----he would have been enslaved. He acted
like a ROMAN---DRESSED LIKE A ROMAN---LIVED LIKE A ROMAN---
and was actually accepted as a ROMAN SCHOLAR ---by the romans

 

[Unkotare]

Interesting - I haven't been following this very closely. I was so disappointed that Netanyahu could remain in power....but I'll have to read more about this. I can undertand [sic] people not wanting to work with Shas. ...

Do you "undertand"? How undertanding of you.

 

[Unkotare]

The reason the Chinese do not rise up and overthrow the Communist regime is because they have full bellies, new refridgerators and cars. They have hope.

Nowhere near that simple, of course.

 

[Lipush]

I dunno, that's outta my small league

Right now following our politics, I am left amused. apperently Natanyahu has difficulties creating a normal coalition, because Lapit and Bennett don't want to be in the same government with the bloodsucking Shas party.

My hopes is that he'll have to call for help and then we will have both Bennet and Lapid calling the shots. No more rediculous taxes, no more hilarious decisions when it comes to outside politics.

I have my fingers crossed.

Interesting - I haven't been following this very closely. I was so disappointed that Netanyahu could remain in power....but I'll have to read more about this. I can undertand people not wanting to work with Shas.

My hope is with Hatenuah retaining the Ministry of Justice and negotiations...

I'm afraid (or not really,lol) that it won't be the case.

Livni is smart at many issues, NOT when it comes with negotiating. And Bennett stands high for saying very clear that if she's in, he's out. And Bennett out means Lapid and Mofas out. Means Netanyahu has AT BEST 56-57 mandates, and that's not enough.

for him to be able to have a coalition two things need to happen. Shas has to go home, and Livni has to drop the Palestinian issue and be only ministress of Justice.

If that won't happen, Netanyahu will not have enough power, means even new elections. New elections means he'll at best, scratch the 25 mandates.

I don't care much about Livni, because I don't think there is muce damage she can do. But I don't want Shas in. Any attempt to bring those vampires down, is blessed. Hurray for Bennett and Lapid.

 

[irosie91]

uhm I am not all that clear about things----but it seems to me
that Bennett should try to live with Livni-----better than creating
a NEED for shas-----but I am not all that clear-----I think
shas ---if COMPLETELY excluded, can create trouble -----
shas has to be treated like a spoiled kid----cajoled

 

[ima]

Myths and facts about Jerusalem and Temple Mount

1) The Islamic claim to the Temple Mount is very recent - Jerusalem's role as "The Third Holiest Site in Islam" in mainstream Islamic writings does not precede the 1930s. It was created by the grand mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini.

2) The Islamic claim to Jerusalem is false - There were no mosques in Jerusalem in 632 c.e. at the death of Muhammad... Jerusalem was [then] a Christian-occupied city. The muslim "claim" to Jerusalem is allegedly based on what is written in the koran, which although does not mention Jerusalem even once, nevertheless talks of the "furthest mosque" (in Sura 17:1) Is there any foundation to the muslim argument that this "furthest mosque" (al-masujidi al-aqsa) refers to what is today called the Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem? The answer is, NO!

3) The present Arabic name of Jerusalem is "Al-Quds"... but "Al-Quds" is an abbreviation for "The Jewish Temple"!
The Arabic name for Jerusalem is "Al-QuDS" (The Holy), which is abbreviation for another Arabic name used for Jerusalem until the last century, "Bayt al-MaQDeS" (The Holy House), since the 10th century c.e. The name "Bayt al-MaQDeS" is a translation of the Hebrew "Beyt ha-MiKDaSH", which means "House of Holiness", "Temple". But Islam has no Temple, only the Jews did. Thus the Arabic name for Jerusalem makes no reference to Muhammad's alleged trip to Heaven, but rather refers to the Jewish Temple!
In fact, it can be seen that significant Islamic interest in the Temple Mount does not precede the Six-Day War in 1967.

Jerusalem. like the rest of Palestine, belongs to the descendants of the original settlers, as everywhere. In Palestine these were mainly th peoplee living there before the nazi colonisation started under the British. The Romans, as everyone knows, were not zionists and didn't go in for ethnic cleansing. The descendants of those who built the Temple are now Muslim or Christian - it happened throughout the Middle East, obviously. Fight racist colonialism NOW!

Those who ignore the long Jewish history and connection to Jerusalem are ignoring more than 60% of the whole base to the Israeli Palestinian conflict.

No Jew will ever give up the right to Jerusalem, Jerusalem is our heart, mind, and soul. those who claim Jerusalem to belong only to the Palestinians are liars, hypocrits, and souless people.

So if we give every Jew and their descendants a free ticket to go to Jerusalem any time they want, then we could give it back to the arabs as part of a real peace offer?

 

[Roudy]

I tend to "excuse" much of Rose and Roudy's offensive remarks because Rose has a husband and family who suffered greatly under Shariah law in an Islamic country. They fled and also suffered in making their escape.
I believe Roudy was born in an Islamic country and imagine he may have friends and family who also suffered as Jews in a Shariah country.
For them, the conflict is intensely personal and emotionally charged.

Thanks, Annika.

Certainly when I lived in Israel a great number of my friends held fairly extreme views on the conflict, which I could understand based on the fact that we lived with the constant threat of attack. It's not easy to be generous when waiting for the next RPG to sail past.

But neither Rosie nor Roudy have any personal experience of the Palestinian conflict beyond being Jewish.

As far as I can tell,both are poorly informed, both endlessly dishonest, and borh motivated largely by racial hatred.

If Palestinians didn't exist - they'd have to invent them.

I am also concerned that other Jewish and pro-Israeli posters refuse to call them on the lies and racism, presumably finding dishonesty conveniant.

My position - any genuine supporter of Israel should stick with facts and truth. Lying only strengthens for the forces of extremism and violence.

As far as we can tell, you are a highly insecure person that has been caught lying a few times making incorrect assumptions about other posters. Most of the time you have no idea what you are talking about.

And speaking of racial hatred we already established in the last go around that you are a regular at StromFront. So again whatever garbage that comes out of you best applies to yourself.

 

[Roudy]

Myths and facts about Jerusalem and Temple Mount

1) The Islamic claim to the Temple Mount is very recent - Jerusalem's role as "The Third Holiest Site in Islam" in mainstream Islamic writings does not precede the 1930s. It was created by the grand mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini.

2) The Islamic claim to Jerusalem is false - There were no mosques in Jerusalem in 632 c.e. at the death of Muhammad... Jerusalem was [then] a Christian-occupied city. The muslim "claim" to Jerusalem is allegedly based on what is written in the koran, which although does not mention Jerusalem even once, nevertheless talks of the "furthest mosque" (in Sura 17:1) Is there any foundation to the muslim argument that this "furthest mosque" (al-masujidi al-aqsa) refers to what is today called the Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem? The answer is, NO!

3) The present Arabic name of Jerusalem is "Al-Quds"... but "Al-Quds" is an abbreviation for "The Jewish Temple"!
The Arabic name for Jerusalem is "Al-QuDS" (The Holy), which is abbreviation for another Arabic name used for Jerusalem until the last century, "Bayt al-MaQDeS" (The Holy House), since the 10th century c.e. The name "Bayt al-MaQDeS" is a translation of the Hebrew "Beyt ha-MiKDaSH", which means "House of Holiness", "Temple". But Islam has no Temple, only the Jews did. Thus the Arabic name for Jerusalem makes no reference to Muhammad's alleged trip to Heaven, but rather refers to the Jewish Temple!
In fact, it can be seen that significant Islamic interest in the Temple Mount does not precede the Six-Day War in 1967.

Jerusalem. like the rest of Palestine, belongs to the descendants of the original settlers, as everywhere where there was agriculture. In Palestine these were mainly the people living there before the nazi colonisation started under the British. The Romans, as everyone knows, were not zionists and didn't go in for ethnic cleansing, so there was no great change of population. The descendants of those who built the Temple are now Muslim or Christian - it happened throughout the Middle East, obviously. Fight racist colonialism NOW!

the descendant of those who built the temple are now Muslim or Chritian....

Ya right! Anything but Jewish, right?! Ha ha ha.

 

[Roudy]

Interesting - I haven't been following this very closely. I was so disappointed that Netanyahu could remain in power....but I'll have to read more about this. I can undertand [sic] people not wanting to work with Shas. ...

Do you "undertand"? How undertanding of you.

Leave the poor guy alone, he has certain delusions about himself. LOL

 

[Saigon]

you are a highly insecure person that has been caught lying a few times

Um....it was FIVE times on this thread alone that you were caught lying, if memory serves.

You seem to be suffering from Ass-bergers Syndrome.

 

[irosie91]

iRosie -

There is no Palestinian "ideology". There is no Israeli "ideology".

The reason the Chinese do not rise up and overthrow the Communist regime is because they have full bellies, new refridgerators and cars. They have hope. This is what the Palestinians do not have.

All racial hatred is like your own - driven by frustration, prejudice and ignorance. In the case of the Palestinians, much of that frustration is understandable, though the prejudice and ignorance perhaps less so.

Easing poverty will help, though it would need to be accompanied by greater freedoms, a sense of political enfranchisement and renewed hope. Education will also be needed. Even then, it will take many years before the hatred is really left in the past.

Saigon you are really stupid of course there is PALESTNIAN IDEOLOGY
and there is CHINESE IDEOLGY -----and not everything is driven by
POVERTY and cured by "FULL BELLIES"

back to my nazi town of origin. There was NO ACTUAL POVERTY
in my town-----NONE!!!! In fact my family lived in what could be
described as the "POOREST" section of town----most of the
dad's were "blue collar" in my little area-----and most of the moms--
housewives------BUT WE WERE SOLID MIDDLE CLASS----the general
area was described back then as ONE OF THE MOST PROSPEROUS
in the country on average I attribute that fact to an utter absence
of a "lower" class----there was no "wrong side of the tracks ---
IN THAT TOWN -----no "servant" class Now explain to me why
the town was "RESTRICTED" until about 1950 (having been
a prosperous town since the revolutionary war)----and chock full of
nazi sympathizers. Why was the local golf club --swimming pool thing so
RESTRICTED that when I was there as a "guest" I could not mention
my last name------and if a BLACK PERSON (well 'colored" to me---and
"n*%%er" to my neighbors walked down the street----a police
car would swing by)----have fun explaining to me why UNIVERSAL
full bellies did not do away with all that -----"stuff"

tell me ---who are the TALIBAN? the poorest kids from pakistan?


I absolutely agree that ECONOMIC stress does give a boost to
flamboyant "nationalist" movements----but it does not
CREATE what was not there to begin with. Without the
DEICIDE MYTH ------adolf could not have managed to get
european christians to support gassing jewish children and
ISABELLA could not have managed to get Spanish catholics
to throw them into bonfires-------it WAS actually ideology

I have noticed how utterly egalitarian is OIL RICH
SAUDI ARABIA (to be fair---the few saudis I have known--
were actually very egalitarian----but there were so few)

 

[Saigon]

I'm afraid (or not really,lol) that it won't be the case.

Livni is smart at many issues, NOT when it comes with negotiating. And Bennett stands high for saying very clear that if she's in, he's out. And Bennett out means Lapid and Mofas out. Means Netanyahu has AT BEST 56-57 mandates, and that's not enough.

for him to be able to have a coalition two things need to happen. Shas has to go home, and Livni has to drop the Palestinian issue and be only ministress of Justice.

If that won't happen, Netanyahu will not have enough power, means even new elections. New elections means he'll at best, scratch the 25 mandates.

I don't care much about Livni, because I don't think there is muce damage she can do. But I don't want Shas in. Any attempt to bring those vampires down, is blessed. Hurray for Bennett and Lapid.

I'm not really a huge fan of Livni, but for my money Hatenuah may be the only thing preventing us from another four years of rampant construction in the West Bank. She at least seems sane and reasonable, even if not as concerned about the lack of a peace process as I think a Minister of Justice should be.

Netanyahu is a liability - seen as an impediment to peace in both the US and EU.

New elections rarely help - in most cases electorates shift into ever more polarised positions on both the left and right, which helps the larger parties and punishes both the extremes and the centre. This might help Netanyahu, and disadvantage both Shas and Hatenuah, I suspect.

 

[Saigon]

Saigon you are really stupid of course there is PALESTNIAN IDEOLOGY
and there is CHINESE IDEOLGY -----and not everything is driven by
POVERTY and cured by "FULL BELLIES"

No, there is Palestinian ideology and there is no Chinese ideology. There is a Hamas ideology and there is an ideology of the Chinese Communist Party, though if it has anything to do with Communism that isn't apparent in the streets of Kowloon these days. Not all Palestinians support Hamas, and even less genuinely support their ideology.

btw. As for "stupid" - have a quick skim read through the thread and spot the poster who can not read write, spell, punctuate or use grammar correctly. He or she is the person most likely to be stupid.

 

[Lipush]

I'm afraid (or not really,lol) that it won't be the case.

Livni is smart at many issues, NOT when it comes with negotiating. And Bennett stands high for saying very clear that if she's in, he's out. And Bennett out means Lapid and Mofas out. Means Netanyahu has AT BEST 56-57 mandates, and that's not enough.

for him to be able to have a coalition two things need to happen. Shas has to go home, and Livni has to drop the Palestinian issue and be only ministress of Justice.

If that won't happen, Netanyahu will not have enough power, means even new elections. New elections means he'll at best, scratch the 25 mandates.

I don't care much about Livni, because I don't think there is muce damage she can do. But I don't want Shas in. Any attempt to bring those vampires down, is blessed. Hurray for Bennett and Lapid.

I'm not really a huge fan of Livni, but for my money Hatenuah may be the only thing preventing us from another four years of rampant construction in the West Bank. She at least seems sane and reasonable, even if not as concerned about the lack of a peace process as I think a Minister of Justice should be.

Netanyahu is a liability - seen as an impediment to peace in both the US and EU.

New elections rarely help - in most cases electorates shift into ever more polarised positions on both the left and right, which helps the larger parties and punishes both the extremes and the centre. This might help Netanyahu, and disadvantage both Shas and Hatenuah, I suspect.

I don't like the fact that Livni says that "Natanyahu's a disaster" and that she's the sane option to change his "idiotic ways" and that there is not change she will sit next to him "to watch how he brings our state to its ruins" but she's also the first one to jump on the carrier when he's having tough times. It makes people believe that more than wanting a change, she wanted a seat.

That seems like cheap politics to me, and I don't like cheap politics. I voted Bennett because he seamed honest about wanting a change, he said he wishes a change in the education and economics, and that his views about dealing with the west bank are very clear. He called for free economy and better education for out children- education based on values of labor, Zionism and history. upgrading the situation to better teachers (by better salaries) and smaller classes (25-32 children in class, instead of 40+)

What I see is that one of the most important things, the "equality of weight carrying" between secular and orthodox concerning the army service, is dealth with by Bennett and Lapid beautifully. They both are very brave and won't budge to the selfish wills of Netanyahu. It's nice to see two young politicians saying "This will be our way because its very important to the people", risking their own seats when fighting a selfish prime minister who doesn't listen to the nation's will and does what's best for him only.

That is truely a good sign.

 

[Unkotare]

btw. As for "stupid" - have a quick skim read through the thread and spot the poster who can not read write, spell, punctuate or use grammar correctly. He or she is the person most likely to be stupid.

It's good that you can face up to your shortcomings like that.

 

[irosie91]

iRosie -

I consider the Palestinian people to exist in the same way I consider the Italian, Canadian and German people to exist.

Austrian people speak German - but are not German. The Swiss speak French and German, but are not French or German.

It isn't difficult stuff really. You just have to strip out the politics and use some common sense.

It was never difficult for me----for me.... population genetics,
anthropology and sociology concepts are virtually as self evident
as simple plane geometry. YOU are very confused You have
concluded that NATIONALITY IS INHERTIED GENETICALLY
-----nope. It is transmitted ENVIRONMENTALLY. Read
CHILDHOOD AND SOCIETY erikson

according to YOUR theory----if some populations admix
with other populations---even on the basis of ENSLAVEMENT---
the populations which took on some "DNA" from the enslaved
population become PART OF THE NATION OF ORIGIN of those
slaves. a good example >> because of their millenia activity
in the slave trade----REAL ARABS (ie origin from arabia) are admixed
considerably with subsaharan black ---and because of proximity---
with ETHIOPIANS-----that fact does not make REAL ARABS
---a nation of ethiopians and subsaharans

you have decided that if there are arab muslims with some JEBUSITE ---
DNA in the middle east----that fact makes them "JEBUSITES"---
nope-----they are of the nations of ARAB MUSLIMS "jebusite"
is not extant.. If there are JEWS with some jebusite DNA --which is
also highly likely----that fact does not make them JEBUSITES either.
Jebusite is not an extant nation----those people of ---by nationality
MIDDLE EAST JEWS who identify as "stemming from jacob 'aka'
israel' and statistically----do.

today EGYPTIANS are called "arabs" Chances are there is LOTS
of ancient egyptian DNA mixed in that population-----even if you find
some KING TUT DNA in an egytptian muslim arab----he is
of the nation of MIDDLE EAST MUSLIM ARABS and does not own
the gold casket of King Tut

nationality is not passed ALLELE BY ALLELE--

analyis of DNA can reveal a GENERAL association with this or that
group ----and evidence of migrations ---etc

do not despair-----lots of people never grasp population genetics
or plane geometry

 

[Saigon]

Lipush -

I do agree about Livni, but she certainly isn't the first politician to spend an entire campaign attacking a politician - and then enter into coalition talks 24 hours after the polls close.

We saw the same thing with the LibDems in Britain, and also here in Finland where we have a left-right coalition. It is the nature of our systems.

Our system is almost the same as your's and in general I love it, but that aspect to it is not always so attractive.

 

[Hossfly]

Toastman -

The main problem I found in Israel with the Palestinian issues is that both sides tend to portray themselves as innocent, and as victims. Both sides complain about how the other side attack them - while attacking the other side and saying they had no choice. After a year in Israel I began to get tired of both sides exaggerating and sometimes simply lying about simple historical facts.

What I figured is that the conflict can end only when Palestinans are ready to describe what they do as terror, and to stop asking for Israel to disappear, for instance. Both sides need to be honest about history, and accept fact as fact.

What bugs me about people like Roudy and Rosie is that they are stuck in a mindset of brainless racism; in which any lie is acceptable and fine providing it
is about Arabs. They are then the first to whine about anti-Semitic posters - at
least one of whom sites Roudy as a reason to post here.

Roudy and Rosie don't live in Israel - but they have no problem playing their part if ensuring the conflict continune. They are not the people who pay the price for their hatred and racism - ordinary Israeli people are the ones who actually face the wrath of Palestinians on a daily basis. When I read some of Roudy's posts - well, I'd say I understand where some of that pathological Palestinian hatred and racism comes from.

You make several very reasonable points here.

I tend to "excuse" much of Rose and Roudy's offensive remarks because Rose has a husband and family who suffered greatly under Shariah law in an Islamic country. They fled and also suffered in making their escape.
I believe Roudy was born in an Islamic country and imagine he may have friends and family who also suffered as Jews in a Shariah country.
For them, the conflict is intensely personal and emotionally charged.

BULLSHIT.....Your attempt at trying to excuse the Criminals Roudy and Rosie after over 8,000.....of which there were 1500 children and infants, Palestinians have been Slaughtered by Israel/Jews since 1948....WHICH THEY REJOICE AT,AND HOPE CONTINUES.

Shame you don't have the SAME SYMPATHY FOR THE PALESTINIANS.

You are just another FCUKARD like the rest........Take your "TEND" out of your and shove into your "EXCUSE" of a MOUTH.

I would bet their stories of repression are COMPLETE BULLSHIT.

Go away from this place,your thoughts have been noted and now reside in the nearest GARBAGE BIN.

Thanks but NO THANKS.

I am in a kind mood today Annika,that's why I have been gentle with you,for you know not what you say.

SFB, Annika always has her facts in order and she doesn't lie. She also has more brains in her pinkie finger than you possess. Lay off.

 

[Hossfly]

The reason the Chinese do not rise up and overthrow the Communist regime is because they have full bellies, new refridgerators and cars. They have hope.

Nowhere near that simple, of course.

Yep. They don't have guns. That's why they're so contented.