My thoughts on the Islamic world.

[syrenn]

And what I think you overlook is that islam does actually practice those evil practices. They are not some words in some book, they are reality.

And again - there are approximately 30 Islamic countries.

Of those, around a half-dozen are stuck back in the 16th century and use barbaric practices.

Thus it makes more sense to me to encurage development in those countries - and not to right off Islam wholesale because people can not distinguish between Yemen and Turkey.

All 30 are stuck in the 16th century.


Window dressing is only window dressing...... its what the people themselves do and how they act that counts.

 

[editec]

The HATERS are doing everything they can to see to it that those of us who do NOT HATE, will be forced to join one side or the other.

I cannot help but note that the HATERS of both sides (or of three sides if you want) of this debate all share one thing in common.

They are all followers of the primative forms of their various Abrahamic religions.

Basically the difference between the relgious haters who are Jews or Christians or Islams is rather nominal, because they are all on the same HATEFUL team.

Those folks target everybody who wants freedom and justice, folks.

They share more common traits than differences.

They hate mindlessly because they are control freaking cowards.

The FEAR human freedom because they NEED to feel like somebody is in control.

Why do they fear freedom?

Because they know what they would do if THEY were free.

They assume that everybody else is as fucked up as they are.

Given how fucked up they are, and given they think everybody feels like they do?

One can understand why they are so fearful.

well, this is the clean debate zone, but i don't mind unless you slip into personal attacks on individuals. there are rules though and you probably should try to follow them.

Not exactly sure what rule I violated for this room. I seldom attack people personally but I certainly might mock their POV.

you've made some pretty broad statements and i am inclear as to whether you are assigning responsibility to all prectitioners of religion or if you are saying that all those responsible are practitioners of religion.

I thought I made the distinction rather clear:

I cannot help but note that the HATERS of both sides (or of three sides if you want) of this debate all share one thing in common.

The haters within these religions are the minority. A vocal minority, even a minority which might have the ability to be over represented by governments, but a minority within their respective religions, nevertheless.

i know plenty of non-religious people with a lot of anger and hatred in them, and i know a lot of people who pursue athieism as fervently and dohmatically as the most evengelical practitioner of a faith pursues their god.

As do I.

Nevertheless your correct observation does not refute my point, it merely adds some additional information about that group that HATES.

fearing freedom? i think people just have different needs and comfort levels. people fear the unknown...lol...thus sayeth the cat who voluntarily opted out of the rep system and sees everyone as they see him. still trying to get used to it. i live in a cute little starless world.

Yes, HATERS fear freedom.

Not their own freedom, of course, that they love, but everyone elses freedom scares the shit of them.

 

[logical4u]

Wish you guys would use "facts". That was not a "Christian" based purge. There are many faiths there, including islam and paganism.

I think I'm in a fairly good position to discuss the DRC Civil War, Logical, and I can assure you that all of the major combatant forces were Christian.

There are Muslim and what one may call Animinists or Vodun in DRC, but they did not constitute a fighting force.

CIA factbook says 70% of the country is Christian.

And are they fighting to supress other religions or are they fighting for survival/territory (that is not religious, though some times religion is the "excuse")?

 

[logical4u]

Alpine -

I believe that we should respect any religion which is both ancient and has hundreds of million of members.

Personally I have less respect for some of the newer religions because they have yet to stand the tet of time, and those which have only ever existed as fringe beliefs, but even so - people can believe what they want to believe.

It i a very sad thing in this world that people do not respect the basic freedom of religious worship.

The "soviets" had millions of followers (subjects) under communism, are you suggesting because "millions" are doing something, that somehow that makes it "right"?

I do not respect islam. The quran twists the Bible, and then claims that it follows it. It does not. The prophets from the Bible are ignored to follow "Mohammed" who taught deceit, destruction, death and decay. Any where islam is predominant, that is exactly what you will find. The people that are born into the muslim "religion" (system of destruction), can choose to be who they want. Many of them really do follow the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob (Israel), and are very honorable people. Many do not. Pretending that a small 1% of the muslim population (~15,000,000 people) that we are told is all that is "extremist" is not a threat, and should be ignored is totally STUPID.

 

[logical4u]

Does THIS look like a 16th century civilisation?

What is outside the city? Africa too, has fine cities, but take a walk outside and step back in time. Showing a shiny jem and implying the entire culture is that wealthy is simply a falsehood. How do the majority of islamic peoples live?

 

[logical4u]

And what I think you overlook is that islam does actually practice those evil practices. They are not some words in some book, they are reality.

And again - there are approximately 30 Islamic countries.

Of those, around a half-dozen are stuck back in the 16th century and use barbaric practices.

Thus it makes more sense to me to encurage development in those countries - and not to right off Islam wholesale because people can not distinguish between Yemen and Turkey.

But remember, arabia is the source of islam, not kuala lumpur.

And of course turkey is no yemen but also remember it was once upon a time, before turkey had a non-believer leader who tried to change the fate of its people and gave them secularism. Remember ottomans.

Yeah, the same thing happened to them (the Ottomans) as happens to socialist/communist/liberals/progressives/muslim extremists/facists/environmentalists: at some point they run out of other peoples' money. Their way is not self sustaining.

 

[Aristotle]

My experience with Muslims have been positive.

Have I met radicals? Yes.

But Muslims are as diverse as the people we encounter from our daily lives.

There are Muslims that drink (yes drink alcohol) beer, talk crap, watch football....

There are Muslims in the U.S that bleed red, white, and blue just like me.

There are Muslims in Africa that are extremely conservative.

There are spiritual Muslims.

I don't see how Muslims and especially Islam gets painted with a negative brush.

 

[PaulS1950]

Because some are recognizably different (clothing and ethnicity) they are easy to demonize. Most Muslims are spiritual people who have love in their hearts and are good citizens. There is a small but vocal (and sometimes destructive) minority that some people use to paint the entire religion. If we were to do that with the fanatics that killed doctors who worked in planned parenthood clinics and bombed clinics we would be saying that Christians are as violent as some say the Muslims.
Try to find any religious or political group that doesn't have a minority who are violent in their acts and words.
Don't generalize - punish those who commit the acts and spread hate - but remember that the rest are good people practicing a religion that is similar in many aspects to your own. Practice what Jesus said, if you are Christian - brush the dust from your feet and move on. In the end they will be judged by the most high and receive what they deserve - whatever G-d decides it should be.

 

[Unkotare]

I don't see how Muslims and especially Islam gets painted with a negative brush.

You don't see how? That is disingenuous. You don't agree with the broad brush? Ok. But to say you don't see how is...

 

[PaulS1950]

You have your views and although I may disagree with them I accept that you have a right to your choice. So long as your rights don't tread on the rights of others you remain free to exercise them.

 

[alpine]

My experience with Muslims have been positive.

Have I met radicals? Yes.

But Muslims are as diverse as the people we encounter from our daily lives.

There are Muslims that drink (yes drink alcohol) beer, talk crap, watch football....

There are Muslims in the U.S that bleed red, white, and blue just like me.

There are Muslims in Africa that are extremely conservative.

There are spiritual Muslims.

I don't see how Muslims and especially Islam gets painted with a negative brush.

This is very good you can see that actually. You can see muslims have diversity and they can enjoy life the way they prefer to enjoy it, of course under the protection of the western civilization. In an islamic state, there is no diversity. Islam does not permit diversity. Islam hates diversity...

So the problem is not the muslims as you can see, it is the islam itself.

Just like during the nazi regime, how people were not the problem (they were just flesh and blood just like we were) but what that regime did make out of them.

 

[logical4u]

Because some are recognizably different (clothing and ethnicity) they are easy to demonize. Most Muslims are spiritual people who have love in their hearts and are good citizens. There is a small but vocal (and sometimes destructive) minority that some people use to paint the entire religion. If we were to do that with the fanatics that killed doctors who worked in planned parenthood clinics and bombed clinics we would be saying that Christians are as violent as some say the Muslims.
Try to find any religious or political group that doesn't have a minority who are violent in their acts and words.
Don't generalize - punish those who commit the acts and spread hate - but remember that the rest are good people practicing a religion that is similar in many aspects to your own. Practice what Jesus said, if you are Christian - brush the dust from your feet and move on. In the end they will be judged by the most high and receive what they deserve - whatever G-d decides it should be.

Let me put this in a way you can understand:

Percentage of Christians that are terrorists: less than .0005, roughly 1000 (overestimate) in the world today.
Percentage of muslims that are terrorists: less than .01, roughly 15,000,000 (underestimate) in the world today.

Christian "Good people" = people that try to live their lives according to the Lord, but will step up to protect those that are defenseless or need help

muslim "Good people" = people that try to live their lives, according to Mohommed (when other muslims are looking, otherwise they try to live their lives according to their hearts), that will stand by and let extremists act like Satanists to their neighbors, friends, and family for fear of retribution.

Yeshua also said to spread the "good Word". It was only when you are rejected, that you hand them to the Lord. Most muslims cannot listen to or read the "Word", because their oppressors wil not allow it. Not that you would care about "oppression" in other parts of the world, it is something to be embraced because it is not "Christian", yes?

 

[PaulS1950]

Because some are recognizably different (clothing and ethnicity) they are easy to demonize. Most Muslims are spiritual people who have love in their hearts and are good citizens. There is a small but vocal (and sometimes destructive) minority that some people use to paint the entire religion. If we were to do that with the fanatics that killed doctors who worked in planned parenthood clinics and bombed clinics we would be saying that Christians are as violent as some say the Muslims.
Try to find any religious or political group that doesn't have a minority who are violent in their acts and words.
Don't generalize - punish those who commit the acts and spread hate - but remember that the rest are good people practicing a religion that is similar in many aspects to your own. Practice what Jesus said, if you are Christian - brush the dust from your feet and move on. In the end they will be judged by the most high and receive what they deserve - whatever G-d decides it should be.

Let me put this in a way you can understand:

Percentage of Christians that are terrorists: less than .0005, roughly 1000 (overestimate) in the world today.
Percentage of muslims that are terrorists: less than .01, roughly 15,000,000 (underestimate) in the world today.

Christian "Good people" = people that try to live their lives according to the Lord, but will step up to protect those that are defenseless or need help

muslim "Good people" = people that try to live their lives, according to Mohommed (when other muslims are looking, otherwise they try to live their lives according to their hearts), that will stand by and let extremists act like Satanists to their neighbors, friends, and family for fear of retribution.

Yeshua also said to spread the "good Word". It was only when you are rejected, that you hand them to the Lord. Most muslims cannot listen to or read the "Word", because their oppressors wil not allow it. Not that you would care about "oppression" in other parts of the world, it is something to be embraced because it is not "Christian", yes?

First document your statistics - Show your sources for 15,000,000 islamic terrorists out of 1.5 billion muslims? and less than 1000 Christian terrorists. Please define what you mean by "terrorists". I never stated what my religious preferences or tendancies are and you have no knowledge of what religion to which I am affiliated. Try not to guess.
Why should someone of a non-Christian faith want to read the Christian "Good Word" it is not their belief. The Bible has no meaning beyond the Chistian world. Most faiths have their own Book of Faith, there own Bible, if you please that is as important to them as yours (be it the bible or something else) is to you.
Show me where Yeshua (Jesus) said to spread the good word and then show what word He was talking about because the Bible wasn't compiled until 610 CE. (about 570 years after he died on the cross) There must have been a different "good word" that he was talking about if he said it at all.
I can't argue with your beliefs only with facts.

 

[logical4u]

Because some are recognizably different (clothing and ethnicity) they are easy to demonize. Most Muslims are spiritual people who have love in their hearts and are good citizens. There is a small but vocal (and sometimes destructive) minority that some people use to paint the entire religion. If we were to do that with the fanatics that killed doctors who worked in planned parenthood clinics and bombed clinics we would be saying that Christians are as violent as some say the Muslims.
Try to find any religious or political group that doesn't have a minority who are violent in their acts and words.
Don't generalize - punish those who commit the acts and spread hate - but remember that the rest are good people practicing a religion that is similar in many aspects to your own. Practice what Jesus said, if you are Christian - brush the dust from your feet and move on. In the end they will be judged by the most high and receive what they deserve - whatever G-d decides it should be.

Let me put this in a way you can understand:

Percentage of Christians that are terrorists: less than .0005, roughly 1000 (overestimate) in the world today.
Percentage of muslims that are terrorists: less than .01, roughly 15,000,000 (underestimate) in the world today.

Christian "Good people" = people that try to live their lives according to the Lord, but will step up to protect those that are defenseless or need help

muslim "Good people" = people that try to live their lives, according to Mohommed (when other muslims are looking, otherwise they try to live their lives according to their hearts), that will stand by and let extremists act like Satanists to their neighbors, friends, and family for fear of retribution.

Yeshua also said to spread the "good Word". It was only when you are rejected, that you hand them to the Lord. Most muslims cannot listen to or read the "Word", because their oppressors wil not allow it. Not that you would care about "oppression" in other parts of the world, it is something to be embraced because it is not "Christian", yes?

First document your statistics - Show your sources for 15,000,000 islamic terrorists out of 1.5 billion muslims? and less than 1000 Christian terrorists. Please define what you mean by "terrorists". I never stated what my religious preferences or tendancies are and you have no knowledge of what religion to which I am affiliated. Try not to guess.
Why should someone of a non-Christian faith want to read the Christian "Good Word" it is not their belief. The Bible has no meaning beyond the Chistian world. Most faiths have their own Book of Faith, there own Bible, if you please that is as important to them as yours (be it the bible or something else) is to you.
Show me where Yeshua (Jesus) said to spread the good word and then show what word He was talking about because the Bible wasn't compiled until 610 CE. (about 570 years after he died on the cross) There must have been a different "good word" that he was talking about if he said it at all.
I can't argue with your beliefs only with facts.

We are told that "just" one percent of muslims are extremists. 15,000,000 is one percent of muslims. The Christian terrorists, like I said, I overestimated. I thought of all those Christians be-heading people, doing suicide bombs, kidnapping family members of other religions, raping girls of other religions, and stoning people in the streets. (I couldn't think of one) I used the sick people that killed their own children and families due to mental illness (cause I think a whole lot of muslims have mental illnesses too).

If you are living in the western world, you should read enough of the Bible to understand western history. If you are not living in the western world, you should read the Bible to understand why the western world became as productive as it was. The Bible is the GREATEST self-help book ever written (and many, many self-help books use Biblical stories to stress their points).



. . 1 Corinthians 9:14 (KJV)
Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
.
. Mark 16:15 (KJV)
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
.
. Romans 1:15 (KJV)
So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
.
. 2 Corinthians 10:16 (KJV)
To preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in another man's line of things made ready to our hand.
.
. Romans 10:15 (KJV)
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
.
. Acts 16:10 (KJV)
And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.
.
. Luke 4:18 (KJV)
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
.
. Acts 14:7 (KJV)
And there they preached the gospel.
.
. Galatians 1:11 (KJV)
But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
.
. Galatians 4:13 (KJV)
Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.
.
. 1 Corinthians 9:16 (KJV)
For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
.
. 1 Corinthians 9:18 (KJV)
What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
.
. 1 Peter 1:25 (KJV)
But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
.
. Acts 14:21 (KJV)
And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch,
.
. Luke 9:6 (KJV)
And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.
.
. 2 Corinthians 2:12 (KJV)
Furthermore, when I came to Troas to preach Christ's gospel, and a door was opened unto me of the Lord,
.
. 2 Corinthians 11:7 (KJV)
Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?
.
. Galatians 1:8 (KJV)
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
.
. Hebrews 4:2 (KJV)
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
.
. Acts 8:25 (KJV)
And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.
.
. Mark 1:15 (KJV)
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
.
. 1 Corinthians 1:17 (KJV)
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
.
. Matthew 24:14 (KJV)
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
.
. 1 Peter 4:6 (KJV)
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
.
. 1 Thessalonians 2:9 (KJV)
For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God.
.
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[hipeter924]

I am not welcome in the Islamic world being an Atheist (in the majority of those nations it is a crime to be an Atheist). If I want a taste of Islam I could get it in my own country or somewhere relatively peaceful like Albania or Bosnia and Herzegovina. It depends where you go and who you meet, while my experience of Muslims has been pleasant and they have been nice people to me; I have no interest in meeting Muslims that would rather cut off my head or shoot me or the people of their country for being non religious or disagreeing with religious theocracy. It will take a century at least for the Islamic world to begin to reform, and that is a rather optimistic estimate.

 

[hipeter924]

Does THIS look like a 16th century civilisation?

What is outside the city? Africa too, has fine cities, but take a walk outside and step back in time. Showing a shiny jem and implying the entire culture is that wealthy is simply a falsehood. How do the majority of islamic peoples live?

Yep, parts of Iran look like that too; doesn't mean that it is a paradise to live in.

 

[Unkotare]

It will take a century at least for the Islamic world to begin to reform, and that is a rather optimistic estimate.

An estiimate based on what?

 

[hipeter924]

It will take a century at least for the Islamic world to begin to reform, and that is a rather optimistic estimate.

An estiimate based on what?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_of_the_12th_century

 

[Saigon]

Does THIS look like a 16th century civilisation?

What is outside the city? Africa too, has fine cities, but take a walk outside and step back in time. Showing a shiny jem and implying the entire culture is that wealthy is simply a falsehood. How do the majority of islamic peoples live?

Yep, parts of Iran look like that too; doesn't mean that it is a paradise to live in.

Agreed - but it does mean the posters here who call Malaysia 16th century would be best advised to take a visit and see for themselves quite how amazingly 21st century it is in reality.

It is not paradise, by any means, but it is safer, more civilised and tolerant than a good many countries our posters here defend.

 

[Unkotare]

It will take a century at least for the Islamic world to begin to reform, and that is a rather optimistic estimate.

An estiimate based on what?

Renaissance of the 12th century - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I won't bother to open wiki-anything. Got a real source?