My thoughts on the Islamic world.

[ekrem]

Did you know all the government schools are being transformed into "imam hatip" (religious schools) in turkey? If you don't want to send your kid to those schools, well too bad, cause you have to.

At below link you can query middle-schools (vocational school) in all Provinces.
Imam-Hatip schools are vocational schools, and they are less than 10% of the available schools for a kid who reached that age.

M.E.B. Mesleki Aç

 

[ekrem]

Do you know what it is like in turkey right now? People get sentenced to jail for tweeting poems from 18th century (...)

Turkey is a Parliamentary democracy, but not a "liberal" society.
Erdogan was jailed for a 20th century poem who was written by same guy who wrote Turkish National Anthem.
Mehmet Akif Ersoy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[logical4u]

I don't believe in ignoring one percent of a population (that totals over fifteen million), while the other ninety nine percent protects or supports them. Saying there are good muslims while ignoring the millions of murderers the religion produces is short sighted. Saying that muslims are anything like Christians is ignorance. There are no cases of Christian communities pulling the entrails out of a person and holding them up for a camera (probably the same people that would never shoot a gun at someone). I know of no cases in recent history where Christians routinely be-headed someone for not being converted or subjugated.

 

[sealadaigh]

I don't believe in ignoring one percent of a population (that totals over fifteen million), while the other ninety nine percent protects or supports them. Saying there are good muslims while ignoring the millions of murderers the religion produces is short sighted. Saying that muslims are anything like Christians is ignorance. There are no cases of Christian communities pulling the entrails out of a person and holding them up for a camera (probably the same people that would never shoot a gun at someone). I know of no cases in recent history where Christians routinely be-headed someone for not being converted or subjugated.

christians are indeed much more civilised. a beheading is far too quick and takes all the fun out of execitions.

give me the sound of sizzling flesh and the pungeant smell of burnt hair of electrocution or the soothing, rhytmic, convulsive spasms of someone being gassed any day of the week.

as for entrails...jeffery dahmer.

all i really hear you saying is you prefer a technologically based, western barbarity more than a middle eastern, more primitive form of barbarity. give them time. they will develope more sophisticated weapon's systems and they will be like us in no time at all.

actually, it would be interesting to see which countries lead the world in per capita murders. i have a feeling western european cultures are going to be pretty high.

 

[alpine]

Did you know all the government schools are being transformed into "imam hatip" (religious schools) in turkey? If you don't want to send your kid to those schools, well too bad, cause you have to.

At below link you can query middle-schools (vocational school) in all Provinces.
Imam-Hatip schools are vocational schools, and they are less than 10% of the available schools for a kid who reached that age.

M.E.B. Mesleki Aç

Those religious schools has been opened only to raise staff for religious works, only the sunni of course. So if you make the calculation, 70.000.000 10% = 7.000.000. The question is, what will turkish government do with 7.000.000 staff? Of course he will transform his country into a sunni muslim state. He will wage a war against any type of minority, majority, religious group, culturel group. He will wipe off all so he can create whole a lot of the same people with the same mindset, islamic mindset.

That 10% was 1% 10 years ago. It will be 50% 10 years later. Turkey is going to need more and more staff for religion because whole country will be a giant religion in no time. Like the other countries a like, that became only a giant religion, and nothing else. Like those countries who give nothing to the world society nothing, but only religion. This is where turkey is headed and will arrive in the near future.

Do you know what it is like in turkey right now? People get sentenced to jail for tweeting poems from 18th century (...)

Turkey is a Parliamentary democracy, but not a "liberal" society.
Erdogan was jailed for a 20th century poem who was written by same guy who wrote Turkish National Anthem.
Mehmet Akif Ersoy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Freedom of speech is not a liberal value, rather it is a democratic one. Any body, doesn't matter liberal or conservative or whatever the hell they are, in a democratic country will agree on one thing; freedom of speech. If you don't have it, that means one of those groups holding the power at the moment is not democratic. So to be specific, turkey have not had a democratic government for a long time.

Today is an exception to all of that tho. Till now, in turkey, there was not a single voice. If there was a wrong doing, someone would speak about it. With Tayyip Erdogan being jailed, it was their opposition who took him out. But now, Tayyip Erdogan is the most cruel against those people simply because they don't share the same point of view. Cause the same people who jailed Tayyip Erdogan have jailed those who are opposing and have been jailed for.

But this is so generic. We have seen the same, maybe a more extensive version happening during the islam revolution in iran. Mollas forgot all about the "others" who made it possible to overthrow the shah. That's the path to success for Tayyip Erdogan and he proves it working with his every step. Oppression is always the way to political success, but unfortunately not to the civilization success.

 

[sealadaigh]

I don't believe in ignoring one percent of a population (that totals over fifteen million), while the other ninety nine percent protects or supports them. Saying there are good muslims while ignoring the millions of murderers the religion produces is short sighted. Saying that muslims are anything like Christians is ignorance. There are no cases of Christian communities pulling the entrails out of a person and holding them up for a camera (probably the same people that would never shoot a gun at someone). I know of no cases in recent history where Christians routinely be-headed someone for not being converted or subjugated.

christians are indeed much more civilised. a beheading is far too quick and takes all the fun out of execitions.

give me the sound of sizzling flesh and the pungeant smell of burnt hair of electrocution or the soothing, rhytmic, convulsive spasms of someone being gassed any day of the week.

as for entrails...jeffery dahmer.

all i really hear you saying is you prefer a technologically based, western barbarity more than a middle eastern, more primitive form of barbarity. give them time. they will develope more sophisticated weapon's systems and they will be like us in no time at all.

actually, it would be interesting to see which countries lead the world in per capita murders. i have a feeling western european cultures are going to be pretty high.

here ya go...actually, the western cultures do ok, but so do many/most muslim countries.

List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[AVG-JOE]

Typical western colonial mindset.

Western values = superior culture.

Yes, freedom of speech is superior to.... no freedom of speech

I can list bunch if you like. Usually it is superior to have something good, than not to have it, you know. Simple logic.

Secular freedom of speech as practiced in the west is immoral and far from being superior to anything of substance.

That may be true but neither you nor I are qualified to judge each other.

Until someone shows up with the actual Word of God on the subject, Freedom and Tolerance are in order.

And by 'actual' Word of God, I mean the Word of God in my opinion, not yours.

See how freedom works? Without tolerance, freedom is just a popularity contest for power.

 

[Saigon]

I don't believe in ignoring one percent of a population (that totals over fifteen million), while the other ninety nine percent protects or supports them. Saying there are good muslims while ignoring the millions of murderers the religion produces is short sighted. Saying that muslims are anything like Christians is ignorance. There are no cases of Christian communities pulling the entrails out of a person and holding them up for a camera (probably the same people that would never shoot a gun at someone). I know of no cases in recent history where Christians routinely be-headed someone for not being converted or subjugated.

There are plenty of cases of extreme Christian brutality, but largely in conflicts that do not make the news.

Did you know 3.9 million died in the Congolese civil war - the largest loss of life in any conflict since WWII?

Did we see that on our TVs?

In general I do agree that Islam is currently more prone to riots and conflict with the west than other major religions are, but I think the extent of that difference is hugely overblown and manipulated for political ends.

The Iraq and Afghanistan wars required the American people to focus on the evils of Islam, hence I think a lot of the reactions we see on this board have been stirred up by people wishing to stir up those reactions.

 

[Aristotle]

Typical western colonial mindset.

Western values = superior culture.

Yes, freedom of speech is superior to.... no freedom of speech

I can list bunch if you like. Usually it is superior to have something good, than not to have it, you know. Simple logic.

Secular freedom of speech as practiced in the west is immoral and far from being superior to anything of substance.

I thought you was a decent individual until you said the bold.


Saigon, unfortunately due to your experiences and objective approach to Muslim culture it will still fall on deaf ears due to those who look at news as a confirmation bias of their religious prejudices.

 

[auditor0007]

Democrats believe that if a religious war is imposed upon us, we should surrender immediately and prove we won't fight a religious war.

You might also ask yourelf if the return for the past Middle Eastern wars has been worth the 4,000 US lives they cost.

It is one thing to be gung ho about fighting - quite another when one of your own children is sent to die a pointless death in a meaningless war.

When we went to war with Afghanistan and even Iraq, most Americans were in support, myself included. We got sucked in. Looking back though, it is easy to see that it was a great waste of resources and it cost us many lives. Worse than that, on top of all the lives lost, we have had tens of thousands of our soldiers come back with horrible injuries, both mental and physical, that will affect them for the rest of their lives. The bottom line is that none of it was to "defend America". If nothing else, we need to learn a lesson from this that we just don't need to get involved in every battle out there, because most of them really have no impact on us.

 

[Saigon]

When we went to war with Afghanistan and even Iraq, most Americans were in support, myself included. We got sucked in. Looking back though, it is easy to see that it was a great waste of resources and it cost us many lives. Worse than that, on top of all the lives lost, we have had tens of thousands of our soldiers come back with horrible injuries, both mental and physical, that will affect them for the rest of their lives. The bottom line is that none of it was to "defend America". If nothing else, we need to learn a lesson from this that we just don't need to get involved in every battle out there, because most of them really have no impact on us.

Very good points. The cost of wars are immeasurable.

Certainly both Saddam and the Taliban were enemies worth defeating, but in retrospect I think the cost of both wars was too high, and the intelligence too poor to justify the approach taken.

It amaze me on this forum to see people desperate to go into Syria, Iran, or both. These people have learned nothing from Iraq, or even Viet Nam.

I suspect few of them are of an age they are likely to sent to the frontline themselves.

 

[High_Gravity]

When we went to war with Afghanistan and even Iraq, most Americans were in support, myself included. We got sucked in. Looking back though, it is easy to see that it was a great waste of resources and it cost us many lives. Worse than that, on top of all the lives lost, we have had tens of thousands of our soldiers come back with horrible injuries, both mental and physical, that will affect them for the rest of their lives. The bottom line is that none of it was to "defend America". If nothing else, we need to learn a lesson from this that we just don't need to get involved in every battle out there, because most of them really have no impact on us.

Very good points. The cost of wars are immeasurable.

Certainly both Saddam and the Taliban were enemies worth defeating, but in retrospect I think the cost of both wars was too high, and the intelligence too poor to justify the approach taken.

It amaze me on this forum to see people desperate to go into Syria, Iran, or both. These people have learned nothing from Iraq, or even Viet Nam.

I suspect few of them are of an age they are likely to sent to the frontline themselves.

Its easy to be eager to rush into the war when you won't be the one fighting it, I was in the Military for 7 years so I know. All these arm chair generals cheerleading for war with Syria or wherever have never served a damn day and plan to watch the war on their flat screens while eating a Papa Johns pizza.

 

[Intense]

When we went to war with Afghanistan and even Iraq, most Americans were in support, myself included. We got sucked in. Looking back though, it is easy to see that it was a great waste of resources and it cost us many lives. Worse than that, on top of all the lives lost, we have had tens of thousands of our soldiers come back with horrible injuries, both mental and physical, that will affect them for the rest of their lives. The bottom line is that none of it was to "defend America". If nothing else, we need to learn a lesson from this that we just don't need to get involved in every battle out there, because most of them really have no impact on us.

Very good points. The cost of wars are immeasurable.

Certainly both Saddam and the Taliban were enemies worth defeating, but in retrospect I think the cost of both wars was too high, and the intelligence too poor to justify the approach taken.

It amaze me on this forum to see people desperate to go into Syria, Iran, or both. These people have learned nothing from Iraq, or even Viet Nam.

I suspect few of them are of an age they are likely to sent to the frontline themselves.

It's not only that. It is the collateral damage, the pollution, the long term environmental effects. Depleted Uranium, Casualties on all sides and what follows. War ain't pretty, nor is it sterile or controlled. Maybe that's why it should be the last extension of diplomacy, and not the first recourse.
Then there is the rebuilding. Where are the concerns of Justice, Human Rights in these New Constitutions? Without them, we end up exactly where we started. Pretty pointless and Fucked up.Where was the State Department when this was all going on?

Show me that we care about the quality of life, for those that survive, that Human Rights are considered consistently, for both Male and Female, Believer and Nonbeliever, without that, there is only another brand of Tyranny, perpetuating the cycles of horror and Injustice for Anyone in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

[BecauseIKnow]

When we went to war with Afghanistan and even Iraq, most Americans were in support, myself included. We got sucked in. Looking back though, it is easy to see that it was a great waste of resources and it cost us many lives. Worse than that, on top of all the lives lost, we have had tens of thousands of our soldiers come back with horrible injuries, both mental and physical, that will affect them for the rest of their lives. The bottom line is that none of it was to "defend America". If nothing else, we need to learn a lesson from this that we just don't need to get involved in every battle out there, because most of them really have no impact on us.

Very good points. The cost of wars are immeasurable.

Certainly both Saddam and the Taliban were enemies worth defeating, but in retrospect I think the cost of both wars was too high, and the intelligence too poor to justify the approach taken.

It amaze me on this forum to see people desperate to go into Syria, Iran, or both. These people have learned nothing from Iraq, or even Viet Nam.

I suspect few of them are of an age they are likely to sent to the frontline themselves.

It's not only that. It is the collateral damage, the pollution, the long term environmental effects. Depleted Uranium, Casualties on all sides and what follows. War ain't pretty, nor is it sterile or controlled. Maybe that's why it should be the last extension of diplomacy, and not the first recourse.
Then there is the rebuilding. Where are the concerns of Justice, Human Rights in these New Constitutions? Without them, we end up exactly where we started. Pretty pointless and Fucked up.Where was the State Department when this was all going on?

Show me that we care about the quality of life, for those that survive, that Human Rights are considered consistently, for both Male and Female, Believer and Nonbeliever, without that, there is only another brand of Tyranny, perpetuating the cycles of horror and Injustice for Anyone in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Great Post Intense. Especially the bold part most people don't consider

 

[logical4u]

I don't believe in ignoring one percent of a population (that totals over fifteen million), while the other ninety nine percent protects or supports them. Saying there are good muslims while ignoring the millions of murderers the religion produces is short sighted. Saying that muslims are anything like Christians is ignorance. There are no cases of Christian communities pulling the entrails out of a person and holding them up for a camera (probably the same people that would never shoot a gun at someone). I know of no cases in recent history where Christians routinely be-headed someone for not being converted or subjugated.

There are plenty of cases of extreme Christian brutality, but largely in conflicts that do not make the news.

Did you know 3.9 million died in the Congolese civil war - the largest loss of life in any conflict since WWII?

Did we see that on our TVs?

In general I do agree that Islam is currently more prone to riots and conflict with the west than other major religions are, but I think the extent of that difference is hugely overblown and manipulated for political ends.

The Iraq and Afghanistan wars required the American people to focus on the evils of Islam, hence I think a lot of the reactions we see on this board have been stirred up by people wishing to stir up those reactions.

Wish you guys would use "facts". That was not a "Christian" based purge. There are many faiths there, including islam and paganism.

If you want to talk pure numbers, nothing comes close to communism (close cousin of socialism and facism for murders (the state inserting themselves as the ideal to be worshipped). Yet way to many idiots are currently considering on voting for socialism in this country for the belief they can get a "free ride". See the above for how well gov't takes care of its population when it has absolute power.

 

[LilOlLady]

Two wrongs do not make a right.

 

[Conservadude]

If they support equal rights for women and support the freedom of speech - they are alright by me. My GF's "Pappi" is a Muslim.. and a really nice guy and incredible cook.

However.. I do believe a lot of the Muslim world follow the the literal meanings of the Qu'ran.. Hence the Muslim Brotherhood terrorist lovers winning elections..

I think they are the majority.. but I could be wrong.

 

[Saigon]

Wish you guys would use "facts". That was not a "Christian" based purge. There are many faiths there, including islam and paganism.

I think I'm in a fairly good position to discuss the DRC Civil War, Logical, and I can assure you that all of the major combatant forces were Christian.

There are Muslim and what one may call Animinists or Vodun in DRC, but they did not constitute a fighting force.

CIA factbook says 70% of the country is Christian.

 

[syrenn]

I'm a lucky guy.

I've been fortunate enough to have spent time in more than a dozen Islamic countries, usually for a month here or a month there, but adding up to a couple of years of flitting between Jakarta, Damascus, Tirana, Amman and Dhaka, anyway. I have been through the Golan Heights with Syrian soldiers, have been to the Hezbollah HQ and so forth as well.

So though I watch the news of flag-burnings and bombs like everyone else, I also have my own experiences of being in places like Southern Lebanon and the Golan Heights to balance against what I see on my TV.

My personal experience of Islam is terrific. I have found people in the Middle East in particular extremely welcoming, friendly and open. I have been invited into mosques, have spent late nights discussing religion, and even spent one day at the beach in Syria being quizzed by a family of thirty about everything from my wife's work to the workings of the EU. I have never experienced any bigotry or hostility towards Christianity, nor towards Europe. On the contrary, I have always been treated with respect and that has extended to my country and religion.

I have also met extremists, who I have found terrifying. They often struck me as sour, bitter people whose hatred had nothing to do with Israel or anything else. The politics is only an excuse to justify hatred and killing - much as it is in Christian countries like Liberia, Rwanda or El Salvador.

My conclusion (and this is backed by research) is that 90%+ of Muslims are our allies. They are normal people, they want jobs and good schools and Nike and Nokia and peace. They will never fire a gun in their life. But there is a small hard core who are our enemy, and who are everything people on this board say they are.

The key thing to understand is that no two Muslim countries are alike. Pakistan and Syria are as different as the US and Mexico, or Sweden and Italy. Some countries are moderate by nature and history (Tunisia, Malaysia, Oman) others extremist by nature and history (Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Nigeria).

What I believe we need to do - and what Obama has done very well - is to court the moderates. To offer carrots. This isolates the extremists, and allows moderate Muslims (who are often reluctant to criticise their own people publicaly, much as posters here are reluctant to criticise their own party) to take control.

Islam is not your enemy. Hatred is your enemy.

as with all cult/religions.... its not the cult that is the enemy.... it its the intolerant people practicing it that are make themselves the enemy.

 

[Saigon]

Syrenn -

As soon a you call Islam a 'cult' I know I am dealing with someone who is not up to speed on this topic.

Islam is one of the three great Abrahamic religions, and all three are worthy of respect.

If you wish to attack a cult, start with Scientology.