My Objection to Religion

[ErikViking]

They are both difficult books to read. I've found this site to be most helpful. Although it’s is sponsored by an atheist, what he says are contradictions in the Bible, after a little research I’ve been able to prove otherwise. Not so with the Koran, however, as those contradictions are real.

Hmm... okay.

New try (for us): Lets say you are right about the Bible being 100% correct on every single issue.
That still doesn't leave my question answered. Instead another question arises.
Question one: Don't you think texts from the Bible can be as intimidating to people who not belive in it or understand it like you do? If so, can't some scary stuff you have read elsewhere be something else than it appears to be?

Question two: So the Bible was 100% correct. But do you also find it complete? Do you think something can be missing from it? If so, in my eyes, it will be rendered to a state of not being correct. (Like a map with big holes in it - good info, but useless as single source of information)

 

[Eightball]

Basically I obviously don't read the Bible like you read the Koran. Nor do I wish to do so.
But for arguments sake can't you comment on the Sodom thing from an outside perspective? We don't know the Koran like we know the Bible and we can't ever hope to do so. It is a question of belief.

And right... I exagerated.

You will not find in any area of the N.Testament, where Jesus or His Apostles tell Christians to kill non-Christians. In fact, just the opposite. You find the Apostles crying out in their letters to their churches to be Christ-like in their lives and pray for those who aren't Christians.

The Apostle Paul, even writes to the Romans, that he is absolutely heart struck with grief that his fellow Jews despise and rejected Jesus, as the Jews were given so much from God as attested by the Old Testament, yet as Paul said they rejected the Cornerstone(Jesus) or that Jesus became their very stumbling-block.

In the Old Testament, the nation of Israel was the receiver of so much from God......the Law, the ordinances, so much. God showed much mercy upon them, and as they wandered in the desert with Moses leading them, He/God even innacted harsh discipline/punishment upon the Israelites themselves. Many did die as a result.

When Moses went up the Mountain to meet with God, the Israelites fell into pagan worship in a very short time. When Moses came back, He innacted through God's direction the execution or wiping out of many who had been part of the great Exodus from Egypt. People had melted down gold jewelry and possessions in Moses's absence and had forged or created a Golden Calf to worship. God had enough, and knew the hearts of these folks were not with him in any way, and wouldn't be in the future. He literally "smited" them, opening up the ground and swallowing-up all the Golden Calf worshipping folks.

God spared those that were contrite of heart, even back in the O.T. days. God also knew who were deceivers and fake believers too, as he knew the intentions of the hearts of all His human creation.

The mystery about all of this is that God made all mankind, yet in some strange way, man still could have a heart for God or not. Why and how, I don't know. It's beyond my finite mind.

All I realize is that to be against the God of the bible is to be in a very sorry, and sad state of rebellion. Again many will say that there are other religions, that don't exact this toll on human life, and all are going to heaven etc.

All going to heaven, is a man made concept, to avoid responsibility for one's choices, in life. The world is rampant with folks suing others for their own stupid folly. Burger chains get sued because an irresponsible adult spills hot coffee on their leg.

God is sovereign, man doesn't want Him to be. Man wants to blame God for all the ills in the world, including the Crusades, etc.. The minute a person calling themselves a Christian does a crime or horrendous thing against humanity, the non-Christians use this as ammunition to prove that Christians are evil, controlling, and no better than anyone else. Yet, many will claim to be Christians, and do much in the name of Jesus, and Jesus will in the end times, "I never knew you.".

Jesus, came to seek and to save.........one day He will return to Judge, but right now, all of us human being have the opportunity to look hard and straight at our lives and be honest. If we dare be honest, we would have to admitt that even if we live out attempted, "goody two shoes" lives, we still have many sinful ways, thoughts, intentions that we hide from all but ourselves. It's our inborn human nature, and God called us on it, thousands of years ago. He also knows that some will respond to his call to admit our wrongs, and fall upon his mercy and grace through His Son Jesus's work on the Cross, that attoned for those sins and sinful life.

We as a majority don't want to admit our failings, and despicable internal condition. We will go on having wars, jealousy, sexual appetites that ruin marriages, families, covetness that leads to breaking ethics, and laws, selfish ambition that hurts others so that we can get ahead, or on top. We will continue to make excuses, go to shrinks, look for reasons that lighten the guilt, etc..( I'm not knocking shrinks, they do some very good things for mankind.)

We will go on measuring success in terms of material wealth, health, influence, physical security, etc.., all the while missing out on the real success story for our lives; that God planned a propitiation for our total spiritual, bankruptcy, through His Son Jesus.

Remember, Jesus said that if you've seen Him, you've seen the Father. If you are at all even partially familiar with Jesus's life, you will see a life that revealed such incredible love, and understanding yet an unbending stand against those that purposefully resisted Him. To resist Jesus was to resist God. Did Jesus curse these resisting folks unto death. No! These folks provided their own course by their own stiff-necked lives.

God knows all, and was preparing early man for the advent of His Son's attoning work.

God has the right to do with His creation as He sees fit. To question his wisdom is pure folly, and immeasurable ignorance, yet it isn't that God doesn't like to be questioned, it's the vain in which He is questioned. God is more than helpful in showing us His wisdom in what He does, if we give Him the opportunity. The problem arises that we don't question in most cases with the heart desire to understand, but to be insolent, and hard-necked as we don't want to accept His will for our lives.

To say that God isn't clear or explanatory or to question His will as it doesn't "jive" with ours, is not a suitable excuse. Again, what right/qualification does the "created" have to question, the "Creator". What right/qualification does finite intelligence have to question infinite intelligence?

We can't even create a cell..........let alone a fully homogenized living being........yet we grope around trying to attain to His understanding, and wisdom, and place in the very being of existence that he authored. As the Old Testament laments......We attempt to attain to being as God.

 

[MissileMan]

They are both difficult books to read. I've found this site to be most helpful. Although it’s is sponsored by an atheist, what he says are contradictions in the Bible, after a little research I’ve been able to prove otherwise. Not so with the Koran, however, as those contradictions are real.

I really miss the old rules where you could call someone a retard.

 

[glockmail]

Hmm... okay.

New try (for us): Lets say you are right about the Bible being 100% correct on every single issue.
That still doesn't leave my question answered. Instead another question arises.
Question one: Don't you think texts from the Bible can be as intimidating to people who not belive in it or understand it like you do? If so, can't some scary stuff you have read elsewhere be something else than it appears to be?

Question two: So the Bible was 100% correct. But do you also find it complete? Do you think something can be missing from it? If so, in my eyes, it will be rendered to a state of not being correct. (Like a map with big holes in it - good info, but useless as single source of information)

1. I'm not sure where you're going with this. I have no fear of the koran. the more I read it and understand it, the more I undersatnd how evil Islam is. Completely opposite of the Bible.
2. Not even the most accurate, iteractive GIS base map can be complete. That's not a viable analogy.

 

[glockmail]

I really miss the old rules where you could call someone a retard.

Me too.

 

[ErikViking]

Yet, many will claim to be Christians, and do much in the name of Jesus, and Jesus will in the end times, "I never knew you.".
...
Remember, Jesus said that if you've seen Him, you've seen the Father. If you are at all even partially familiar with Jesus's life, you will see a life that revealed such incredible love, and understanding yet an unbending stand against those that purposefully resisted Him. To resist Jesus was to resist God. Did Jesus curse these resisting folks unto death. No! These folks provided their own course by their own stiff-necked lives.
...
God has the right to do with His creation as He sees fit. To question his wisdom is pure folly, and immeasurable ignorance, yet it isn't that God doesn't like to be questioned, it's the vain in which He is questioned. God is more than helpful in showing us His wisdom in what He does, if we give Him the opportunity. The problem arises that we don't question in most cases with the heart desire to understand, but to be insolent, and hard-necked as we don't want to accept His will for our lives.

Hey, thank you for this ambitious reply. You know far more about interpretation of the Bible than I do. But still you give me the impression that God lives in our hearts - not in the Book. The Bible can only provide answers if it is read in good faith.

1. I'm not sure where you're going with this. I have no fear of the koran. the more I read it and understand it, the more I undersatnd how evil Islam is. Completely opposite of the Bible.

Maybe I wan't as clear as I thought. Look:
I think some muslims argue like you do when defending their holy book from being accused of having contradictions, being evil or failing. You say you are beginning to understand the Koran, but can you? Aren't you just doing what other people do to you when pointing out what they believe is contradictions in the Bible? Have you got a Muslim expert explaining as you read along? This is important to me because muslims are judged being this or that from a book which can be read i many different ways.

2. Not even the most accurate, iteractive GIS base map can be complete. That's not a viable analogy.

So The Bible isn't complete? I get to fill in the blanks? Or you?

 

[glockmail]

....

Maybe I wan't as clear as I thought. Look:
I think some muslims argue like you do when defending their holy book from being accused of having contradictions, being evil or failing. You say you are beginning to understand the Koran, but can you? Aren't you just doing what other people do to you when pointing out what they believe is contradictions in the Bible? Have you got a Muslim expert explaining as you read along? This is important to me because muslims are judged being this or that from a book which can be read i many different ways.



So The Bible isn't complete? I get to fill in the blanks? Or you?

1. I’ve had conversations with Muslims over the Koran and challenged them openly about the contradictions. I remember one guy who told me that I must be reading some odd translation, so I asked him to provide a link to one that he would accept. When I pointed out that it said the same thing, and the contradiction was still there, he called upon some other source (sort of like a Catholic Catechism) that made a different interpretation. Although that is not a legitimate argument- the Koran should stand on its own- I asked for links to this new source as well and found that the contradiction still existed. The conversation then degraded to calling me a racist (I had no idea what color skin he had), then threats and insults from him and finally him banned from the board. This was not an isolated event as it was repeated here on this board as well about 3-4 months ago. If I have time I’ll look up the poster’s name for you. The fact is that I have never had a Muslim successfully argue the basic contradiction of Islam.
2. You can fill in the blanks any way you want to, as God gave you the freedom to do so. Your fate will depend on if you do it honestly with an open mind and heart.

 

[ErikViking]

1. I’ve had conversations with Muslims over the Koran and challenged them openly about the contradictions. I remember one guy who told me that I must be reading some odd translation, so I asked him to provide a link to one that he would accept. When I pointed out that it said the same thing, and the contradiction was still there, he called upon some other source (sort of like a Catholic Catechism) that made a different interpretation. Although that is not a legitimate argument- the Koran should stand on its own- I asked for links to this new source as well and found that the contradiction still existed. The conversation then degraded to calling me a racist (I had no idea what color skin he had), then threats and insults from him and finally him banned from the board. This was not an isolated event as it was repeated here on this board as well about 3-4 months ago. If I have time I’ll look up the poster’s name for you. The fact is that I have never had a Muslim successfully argue the basic contradiction of Islam.

Well, I think you did right. And I like to encourage you to continue. As you most likely know not everyone can debate things they find essential or sensitive in a good fashion. Even you lost your temper yourself in a recent now closed thread.

2. You can fill in the blanks any way you want to, as God gave you the freedom to do so. Your fate will depend on if you do it honestly with an open mind and heart.

I agree. That is why the Bible to me is not to be taken litterally. The underlying message of love and forgivness are beautiful. Do you know if the Koran talks about the same thing?

 

[glockmail]

Well, I think you did right. And I like to encourage you to continue. As you most likely know not everyone can debate things they find essential or sensitive in a good fashion. Even you lost your temper yourself in a recent now closed thread.


I agree. That is why the Bible to me is not to be taken litterally. The underlying message of love and forgivness are beautiful. Do you know if the Koran talks about the same thing?

1. I didn't lose my temper, I became aggressive after another poster insulted my wife.
2. Parts are to be taken literally, parts are to be looked at as as parables.

BTW I looked up the posts that I referred to earlier and the name of the poster was Just Sad.

 

[Eightball]

Hey, thank you for this ambitious reply. You know far more about interpretation of the Bible than I do. But still you give me the impression that God lives in our hearts - not in the Book. The Bible can only provide answers if it is read in good faith.


Maybe I wan't as clear as I thought. Look:
I think some muslims argue like you do when defending their holy book from being accused of having contradictions, being evil or failing. You say you are beginning to understand the Koran, but can you? Aren't you just doing what other people do to you when pointing out what they believe is contradictions in the Bible? Have you got a Muslim expert explaining as you read along? This is important to me because muslims are judged being this or that from a book which can be read i many different ways.



So The Bible isn't complete? I get to fill in the blanks? Or you?

Erik:

Without the "book" there's no knowledge of what, where, who, how, when, of God's nature, existence, etc. I do apologize to you and all if my post emphasized or conveyed that my personal experience or angle superceded biblical importance in my topic.

I tend to post from the angle expressing some of my personal "faith" experience as well as the biblical doctrinal aspects of Christianity.

One of my favorite bible verses is "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.". This verse simply says that there is no source or starting point of faith without know the Word, or scripture. Yes, God is within the pages of scripture in my opinion/assessment.

As far as my personal experiences, I know that to many this is just "subjective" yet, within the pages of scripture is recorded the affect of God's faith that effectualizes peoples's belief or perserverance in God Himself. Mysteriously, this "faith" is actually called a gift that all Christians possess. It's not a self-manufactured man-made act or state of being, but is given to those who desire or seek God. This can all be found in scripture.

By no means do I mean to minimize the bible's influence/role in the Christian faith or my personal faith as a Christian. With out scripture, there would be no Christian faith.

I do thank you for calling to point this misunderstanding that was conveyed through my previous post. I do appreciate your interest, and critique.
***
Many believe that faith is a "feeling" or an "emotion". That is absolutely false. Faith is based on objective data, and is an active state of decision to "believe" not "feel" that something is a certain way. Many Christians trully do get caught up in the emotional aspect of their humanity, and do gauge their faith upon their feelings, rather than on the pure exercise of their wills or "choosers" to just accept or reject something objectively. Feelings are fleeting, and feelings can communicate to us totally false data about any given situation, or time in our lives. Feelings are part of our humanity and are not bad, but they are not the place to find the truth. They do enhance our belief, and objective faith, and without feelings/emotions we would be sorely lacking in much comfort internally.

Sadly there are movements within the Christian faith, that have keyed-in on the emotional side of humanity and have even given emotions/feelings precedents over objective-based faith in the bible. As a result, we have the Benny Hinns, Kenneth Copelands, of the world who Tele-Evangelize false gospels to thousands. We have prosperity preachers who warp and twist scripture and play on the emotions, and hurts of the human race. These preachers twist and bastardize scripture for their material, gain at the expense of a needy humanity. These false ones will "pay" one day. They/false preachers will get their "pie in the sky" one day, and it won't be a Mercedes, a tax shelter, or an estate with 5 acres either.

 

[ErikViking]

Erik:

Without the "book" there's no knowledge of what, where, who, how, when, of God's nature, existence, etc. I do apologize to you and all if my post emphasized or conveyed that my personal experience or angle superceded biblical importance in my topic.

Again a well worked post. What I am aming at is this: You understand the Bible by your Christian faith. In a way I think your personal experience supercedes the Bible. Because you practice faith. Without you the Bible is a book. With you it is the Book.

1. I didn't lose my temper, I became aggressive after another poster insulted my wife.
2. Parts are to be taken literally, parts are to be looked at as as parables.

BTW I looked up the posts that I referred to earlier and the name of the poster was Just Sad.

1. And this happened in a religious discussion. Religion is sensitive stuff to alot of people. I think it is quite common.
2. Fair enough. Maybe things you read in Koran too are not to be taken literally?

 

[Puddles]

You should try to develop a better understanding on the three monotheist religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, in their historical context, because you just can't switch them around and make sense.

Once again, you prove that you are incapable of understanding what's been said.

 

[Annie]

Once again, you prove that you are incapable of understanding what's been said.

I think you are both off. Then again, it's only one person's opinion.

 

[glockmail]

Again a well worked post. What I am aming at is this: You understand the Bible by your Christian faith. In a way I think your personal experience supercedes the Bible. Because you practice faith. Without you the Bible is a book. With you it is the Book.


1. And this happened in a religious discussion. Religion is sensitive stuff to alot of people. I think it is quite common.
2. Fair enough. Maybe things you read in Koran too are not to be taken literally?

1. Common to insult a man's wife? It's only happened twice in my life, and both times by the same dweeb.
2. How else would you interpret "2:193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."?

 

[Annie]

1. Common to insult a man's wife? It's only happened twice in my life, and both times by the same dweeb.
2. How else would you interpret "2:193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."?

Be that as it may, take a deep breath.

 

[Puddles]

I think you are both off. Then again, it's only one person's opinion.

Thanks for that 'opinion' I guess even though you don't state why or say what you seem to think we're both off on considering the thread's longevity.

 

[Annie]

Thanks for that 'opinion' I guess even though you don't state why or say what you seem to think we're both off on considering the thread's longevity.

Well because you are both representing sterotypes of either end?

 

[Puddles]

Well because you are both representing sterotypes of either end?

Oh really? I didn't realize I was representing a stereotype...and what stereotype would that be? Keep in mind, that I haven't stated my religious beliefs or opinions.

 

[glockmail]

Be that as it may, take a deep breath.

Never. It is a question of honor.

 

[Annie]

Never. It is a question of honor.

Honor is good, has it's place. Getting into a pis**** match however, will serve no purpose, other than getting those involved warnings.