CDZ My choice or yours?

[TNHarley]

I hear all the complaints about socialism, and I agree that the picture you paint of it would be horrendous. Nobody I have ever met advocates socialism in that form. We currently have a mix of socialism and capitalism. Our police, fire departments, military, and infrastructure are all socialism. No private company could or would be able to provide those things for us in a purely capitalist system. You also seem to forget the times capitalism drastically failed and it took socialism to bail us out. The crash of 29 was the result of failed capitalism run unchecked. Only a substantial dose of socialism was able to dig us out of that. The Bush crash was not quite as bad, but only a socialist bail out could save us from total collapse. Why do you have a hard time understanding that no private company can build and maintain the infrastructure that all private corporations have to have to stay in business?

Except any one that doesnt want socialism bitch about basic govt services.
You guys have turned that into a cliche

I'm not sure what your point is. Sometimes government services do suck. You been to the DMV lately? That just means we need to improve how the DMV works. It doesn't mean that it doesn't serve a purpose that helps us all. There are lots of things that can only be done by the government. No private company could or would do them. Only an idiot would say that is the same as government control of everything.

But thats what im saying. The people that bitch about socialism arent bitching about basic govt service. Its a non sequiter is most cases

I have no idea what you're saying. But I will say that as a person who doesn't want socialism, all I really want is basic gov't service. Which probably is not the same think that others may think it is or should be. I do not think the gov't needs to be involved with SS, healthcare, or education, or housing, or a bunch of other things that I think do not fall under the purview of basic gov't functions at the federal level. Beyond the basic stuff, I don't think we should provide it at the federal level unless we have the revenue to pay for it.

Thats what im saying.
People that dont want socialism arent complaining about basic govt service. They are complaining about theft through taxation, unconstitutional fed programs, the govt regulating the market.
They are bitching about real things, not police and firemen.

 

[Moonglow]

I think most Americans like to make their own choices. They like the idea that they get to spend their money any way they want to. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, right? Essentially, most of us like to decide for ourselves how we are going to go about pursuing whatever our idea of happiness is. I'm guessing that most of us also do not like somebody else telling us what our idea if happiness should be, and also setting limits on how much happiness we deserve.

Well that's what socialism is, somebody else making your decisions for you whether you like it or not. How's that for equality, hmm? Ok, maybe not ALL your decisions, at least not yet. But have you considered what the trend has been here in the US over the past century or so? Whether you realize it or not, your rights and liberties have been reduced and by more than you think.

Do you think that the best player on the team should be paid the same as the worst? How about the best actors, musicians, teachers, doctors, whatever? No doubt some will strive to be the best they can be anyway, but how many won't bother? How much poorer will that make us as a society?

What does socialism to do innovation if there's no incentive for the results? Whose going to bust ass to develop something new if there's no reward? Been to Cuba, North Korea, Venezuela lately?

Do you really think that under socialism there wouldn't still be a ruling class living like kings? What makes you think things will be any different from an equality and social justice point of view? Or any kind of justice, do you think you will get the same justice as the well-connected, or will they skate and you get screwed?

So you have a decision to make. Do you want to live in a country where no matter how hard you work, no matter what you do or how much you succeed, you simply won't improve your lot?

Do you want to benefit from your own success or would you prefer to let the government take over and use your benefit to pay everyone else?

In short, how much control do you want the gov't to have over your life? Do you want to make your own choices, or leave it to somebody else?

How is the Drug War socialism?

 

[Moonglow]

Why do Young Fukkers never seem to be aware of the classic "test cases" for socialism from recent history? Look at GERMANY and KOREA. In both cases, after a recent war, half the country went "socialist" and promptly went into the shitter, while the other half pursued freedom and capitalism ("western social democracy"), and thrived.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the one factor that destroyed East Germany and North Korea is SOCIALISM.

And yet we have Young Fukkers seriously suggesting that Socialism is the "way to go."

Un.

Fucking.

Believable.

Why do we as taxpayers have to keep bailing out capitalist?

 

[Moonglow]

I hear all the complaints about socialism, and I agree that the picture you paint of it would be horrendous. Nobody I have ever met advocates socialism in that form. We currently have a mix of socialism and capitalism. Our police, fire departments, military, and infrastructure are all socialism. No private company could or would be able to provide those things for us in a purely capitalist system. You also seem to forget the times capitalism drastically failed and it took socialism to bail us out. The crash of 29 was the result of failed capitalism run unchecked. Only a substantial dose of socialism was able to dig us out of that. The Bush crash was not quite as bad, but only a socialist bail out could save us from total collapse. Why do you have a hard time understanding that no private company can build and maintain the infrastructure that all private corporations have to have to stay in business?

One capitalist crash, and how many socialist disasters have there been since 1929?

The Bush recession was due to socialism too, you know.

Since there is no socialism at the govt. level how did socialism fail?

 

[sparky]

Yet another thread defining a eco-political system.

Such a black/white mentality , every system has it's pros/cons

And any system can flourish or fail , most of what we historically see is they become top heavy ,at which point the general population suffers

The failures usually have one thing in common

They are not a meritocracy

• European sovereign debt crisis (EU) (2009-)
  • Greek government-debt crisis (2009-)
• 2010-14 Portuguese financial crisis
• Crisis in Bolivarian Venezuela (2012-)
• Ukrainian crisis (2013-2014)
• 2014 Russian financial crisis
• 2014-2017 Brazilian economic crisis
• 2015 Chinese stock market crash
• 2012-2017 Venezuela crisis
• 2012-2018 Iran economic and currency crisis
• Turkish currency and debt crisis, 2018

List of economic crises - Wikipedia

~S~

 

[BULLDOG]

I hear all the complaints about socialism, and I agree that the picture you paint of it would be horrendous. Nobody I have ever met advocates socialism in that form. We currently have a mix of socialism and capitalism. Our police, fire departments, military, and infrastructure are all socialism. No private company could or would be able to provide those things for us in a purely capitalist system. You also seem to forget the times capitalism drastically failed and it took socialism to bail us out. The crash of 29 was the result of failed capitalism run unchecked. Only a substantial dose of socialism was able to dig us out of that. The Bush crash was not quite as bad, but only a socialist bail out could save us from total collapse. Why do you have a hard time understanding that no private company can build and maintain the infrastructure that all private corporations have to have to stay in business?

Except any one that doesnt want socialism bitch about basic govt services.
You guys have turned that into a cliche

I'm not sure what your point is. Sometimes government services do suck. You been to the DMV lately? That just means we need to improve how the DMV works. It doesn't mean that it doesn't serve a purpose that helps us all. There are lots of things that can only be done by the government. No private company could or would do them. Only an idiot would say that is the same as government control of everything.

But thats what im saying. The people that bitch about socialism arent bitching about basic govt service. Its a non sequiter is most cases

I have no idea what you're saying. But I will say that as a person who doesn't want socialism, all I really want is basic gov't service. Which probably is not the same think that others may think it is or should be. I do not think the gov't needs to be involved with SS, healthcare, or education, or housing, or a bunch of other things that I think do not fall under the purview of basic gov't functions at the federal level. Beyond the basic stuff, I don't think we should provide it at the federal level unless we have the revenue to pay for it.

Thats what im saying.
People that dont want socialism arent complaining about basic govt service. They are complaining about theft through taxation, unconstitutional fed programs, the govt regulating the market.
They are bitching about real things, not police and firemen.

Police and firemen are socialism. If they oppose socialism, they oppose police and firemen, and infrastructure, and----and----and. Either they have no idea what socialism is, and are just parroting right wing rhetoric, or they are liars. I suspect both.

 

[dblack]

Police and firemen are socialism.

Not really. They're services often assigned to government. Socialism is an ideology advocating democratic state control of the economy. Do some reading. And give it a break with this horseshit sales pitch.

 

[dblack]

Why do we as taxpayers have to keep bailing out capitalist?

We don't.

 

[sparky]

They're services often assigned to government.

assigned & regulated BY gub'mit

Socialism is an ideology advocating democratic state control of the economy.

What kind of economy would we have w/ anarchy.....?

~S~

 

[sparky]

Why do we as taxpayers have to keep bailing out capitalist?

We don't.

https://www.quora.com/Are-bailouts-capitalist-socialist-or-communist

~S~

 

[dblack]

I hear all the complaints about socialism, and I agree that the picture you paint of it would be horrendous. Nobody I have ever met advocates socialism in that form.

Do you ever read? Check this out: What is Democratic Socialism? - Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

Do you ever read your own links? Democratic Socialism is nothing like the government run totalitarian state you crazy right wingers portray. It sounds pretty damn good, even if you do hate and fear the word.

Let's have a look! Let's see - the very first line of the page I linked to:

Democratic socialists believe that both the economy and society should be run democratically

Seems pretty clear. First, they want government running things. They want government running both the economy and society. Not sure how you steer around that one, but you're welcome to try.

 

[BULLDOG]

Police and firemen are socialism.

Not really. They're services often assigned to government. Socialism is an ideology advocating democratic state control of the economy. Do some reading. And give it a break with this horseshit sales pitch.

They are socialist services always assigned to government.

 

[sparky]

add our military to that list.....most of their ventures have economic undertones

~S~

 

[dblack]

Why do we as taxpayers have to keep bailing out capitalist?

We don't.

https://www.quora.com/Are-bailouts-capitalist-socialist-or-communist

Dead link. Regardless, taxpayers don't "have to keep bailing out capitalists".

 

[dblack]

Police and firemen are socialism.

Not really. They're services often assigned to government. Socialism is an ideology advocating democratic state control of the economy. Do some reading. And give it a break with this horseshit sales pitch.

They are socialist services always assigned to government.

You seem to have a really idiotic conception of socialism. I realize there's an orwelling obfuscation campaign running full steam, but socialism isn't just "anything government does". Do some reading.

 

[Moonglow]

Why do we as taxpayers have to keep bailing out capitalist?

We don't.

When the too big to fail gets bailed out by the govt. it is done with taxpayers monies....If you have missed the last two recessions then you missed out on corporations getting funds to help them stay afloat..and it has been going on since the Great Depression.

 

[dblack]

They're services often assigned to government.

assigned & regulated BY gub'mit

Yeah? Government and socialism aren't the same thing. You really don't get that?

What kind of economy would we have w/ anarchy.....?

Anarchy? What are you talking about?

 

[dblack]

Why do we as taxpayers have to keep bailing out capitalist?

We don't.

When the too big to fail gets bailed out by the govt. it is done with taxpayers monies....If you have missed the last two recessions then you missed out on corporations getting funds to help them stay afloat..and it has been going on since the Great Depression.

I'm saying we didn't have to do that and we shouldn't have. Got it?

 

[BULLDOG]

I hear all the complaints about socialism, and I agree that the picture you paint of it would be horrendous. Nobody I have ever met advocates socialism in that form.

Do you ever read? Check this out: What is Democratic Socialism? - Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

Do you ever read your own links? Democratic Socialism is nothing like the government run totalitarian state you crazy right wingers portray. It sounds pretty damn good, even if you do hate and fear the word.

Let's have a look! Let's see - the very first line of the page I linked to:

Democratic socialists believe that both the economy and society should be run democratically

Seems pretty clear. First, they want government running things. They want government running both the economy and society. Not sure how you steer around that one, but you're welcome to try.

Let me know if you ever reach that straw you're reaching for.

 

[Andylusion]

Ok Bulldog, let's go through your post, yours in italics and quotes, starting with:

"Nobody I have ever met advocates socialism in that form"
Of course they don't, have you been to any socialist countries? That's what they do there, maybe they don't start out that way but that's pretty much how they end up - with your choices severely reduced if not eliminated. And your rights and freedoms.

"Our police, fire departments, military, and infrastructure are all socialism."
I disagree, these are all volunteer organizations that promote (pay) based on mostly on merit. Nobody is forced to do these things, not in this country.

"You also seem to forget the times capitalism drastically failed and it took socialism to bail us out."
Wow, lots of stuff here to talk about. First, capitalism doesn't fail, but it does require competent governance. It is the governance that fails, not capitalism, which is nothing more than an economic model. Which BTW, has provided far more prosperity than anything else, not even close. And socialism never bailed anything out, socialism has failed every single time it has ever been tried. Look at the Great Depression in the 1930s, even after all those socialistic policies that FDR tried, the depression was still going strong right up to WWII. Yes, capitalism ran unchecked, but the fault was with the government for allowing so much borrowing leverage. If you think socialism had anything to do with digging us out of that or the 2007 Recession (which BTW was not Bush's fault) then you have a serious misunderstanding of history.

"Why do you have a hard time understanding that no private company can build and maintain the infrastructure that all private corporations have to have to stay in business?"
Missed your point here, private companies do indeed build and maintain the infrastructure. Are you under the impression that the infrastructure in socialist countries is better than ours? I am fairly certain that such is not the case.

People seem to forget that capitalism is about choices, the more the better. If someone makes a bad choice, that's on them not on capitalism for giving them the choice to make in the 1st place. Nobody limits your choices, you can't have this or that. And that is why capitalism is by far the best economic model ever devised.

Much ado about nothing.

Clearly conservatives have latched onto the ‘socialism’ lie believing it will afford them some partisan advantage.

It won’t.

Except it isn't a lie.