Muhammed vs. Jesus

[Sunni Man]

OK, answer me this:

The Bible says Jesus was a teacher (Rabbi) and taught the Law (Torah) and never violated the Law (Torah).

Now Christians say the Law (Torah) is NO longer in effect.

So when do Jesus according to scripture invalidate the Law (Torah)???

He didn't "invalidate" the law, he fullfilled it. The law demanded sacrifices for our sins. Jesus was the final perfect sacrifice for all of man's sins.

Do you understand?

So heaven and earth have passed away??

 

[Toro]

Here's something for you to think about.

Christians do not follow the OT laws. A lot of bad things happened in the OT, but how does that translate to what is happening today? Christians are not responsible for what happened thousands of years ago and they certainly are not living under OT laws and rituals.

Well, first of all, that's not entirely true. As I mentioned, in Uganda, the Christian government wants to put homosexuals to death, which comes right out of the Old Testament. Now, you might think "Its just Uganda, and it doesn't represent all Christianity," to which the retort would be "You are selectively dismissing a minority within Christianity as being representative of the entire religion but you are applying a double standard by arguing that a minority within Islam is representative of the entire religion." That is why I am saying you exhibiting confirmation bias and your argument is hypocritical.

Now that we have that cleared up, how do you accout for the barbaric inhumane terrorism that is happening today in the name of Allah all over the planet?

I agree that elements of Islam are barbaric. And that minority within Islam is much much larger than the Christian minority represented by the Ugandans above. The answer to your question is that all religions evolve within their societies. That's why we don't stone adulterers anymore, like we used to, whereas they still do in places like Iran. Our society has evolved to place human rights above religious edicts in the West whereas they still have not to the same degree in much of the Middle East. The reasons for this are vast and complex, far beyond the scope of anything here. But the West has evolved into a more compassionate and humane society than the Middle East, and religion has played only a minor role in this evolution.

 

[Dr Grump]

You said it was a quote of Jesus. Jesus never said those words about himself. He was speaking of someone else in a parrable who spoke those words. Is that correct?

Yes. Jesus often spoke in parables to make a point. And Christians past and present used Jesus's words in this parable to justify violence.

Now, did Jesus say we should abide by the Old Testament?

In your first post you stated that the words were the words of Jesus. Who do you think you're dealing with? You're a liar. Go **** yourself, liar.

Toro 1, Jake Fart 0

 

[Dr Grump]

In your first post you stated that the words were the words of Jesus. Who do you think you're dealing with? You're a liar. Go **** yourself, liar.

That's right. The parable didn't matter! Forget it!

That's what hypocritical douchebags who give Christians a bad name like yourself do. They point out all the bad things of other religions while being apologists for Christianity. That's why you won't answer the question.

Now answer it, douchebag - Did Jesus say we should abide by the Old Testament?

I showed you for the liar you are. I don't deal with liars. Go **** yourself, liar.

Toro 2, Jack Fart 0

 

[Dr Grump]

Jesus created the universe.

Prove it Brainwashed moron...

 

[Dr Grump]

So far all we've seen from you is a pile of rants and raves. Now focus.

Jesus lived in the Old Testament. He was the last prophet. The Old Testament died when he died. The New Testament began when he rose from the dead.

Now it's your turn.

Right. But that's not the issue, is it? Jesus said we should follow the Old Testament. Yet the Old Testament is full of awful stuff. So Muhammed said some bad stuff and Jesus said we should pay heed to the book with awful stuff in it. What's the difference?

You say I take things out of context? You're wrong, but let's pretend you're right. We have a thread with a scholar arguing that the Bible is a more violent book than the Koran because the violence ascribed in the Koran is self-defense. Well, how is quoting single bits of scripture from Muhammed out of context and using that to slam Islam any different?

I say, we let it slide and try to understand the central message of religions rather than nitpicking how awful the other is. There is an awful lot of bad stuff in the Bible just like there's bad stuff in the Koran.

Yeshua said that He was here to fullfill the law, not replace it.
When the men of 'faith' wanted to stone the adulteress, did Yeshua join them (as would have been required in the OT)?
At every turn when the 'religious leaders' tried to use the law to trap Him or others, He called them on their falsehood, and basically told them they were missing the forest because they were focusing on the trees.
Trying to hold Christians to Leviticus is ridiculous. It is like insisting that peole do not use motorized vehicles because "tradition" dictates.
Yeshua took the entire OT (a book of great teachings) and narrowed it down to two statements:
Love your Lord before all else.
Love your neighbor(that don't necessarily mean you know them) as yourself.

While you want to focus on all the "terrible things" in the OT, you ignore all the "terrible things" being done in the name of islam, TODAY. Comparing what is happening today with what was happening over two THOUSAND years ago, simply, shows, your intellectual dishonesty.

Christ, for somebody who says they are logical, it sure seems like you are missing the logic here. You do realise your last sentence to Toro is more or less the same as his to you, but just said in a different way?

 

[Adamo]

I coulda kicked jesus' bony ass. Mohammed sounds like a madman but I think he's probably never seen a peruvian necktie, which is how I'd finish him off. As for saying stupid stuff, this board is WAY dumber than either the bible or the coran. Anyways, if I had to choose, I'd rather be a jew, they're god's chosen people after all. The rest are a bunch of wannabe right theists.

 

[Jack Fate]

OK, answer me this:

The Bible says Jesus was a teacher (Rabbi) and taught the Law (Torah) and never violated the Law (Torah).

Now Christians say the Law (Torah) is NO longer in effect.

So when do Jesus according to scripture invalidate the Law (Torah)???

He didn't "invalidate" the law, he fullfilled it. The law demanded sacrifices for our sins. Jesus was the final perfect sacrifice for all of man's sins.

Do you understand?

So heaven and earth have passed away??

Nope. You're still confused. I would love to help you out. Try this.

The law was fulfilled in Jesus and all those who have faith in him have fulfilled the law. Jesus did it for us and by faith in him we are no longer condemned by the law. The punishment for sin is still death for all those who will not have faith in Jesus.

YOU are going to have to fulfill the law in order to be saved. Not me. I'm in Christ. Good luck.

 

[Sunni Man]

He didn't "invalidate" the law, he fullfilled it. The law demanded sacrifices for our sins. Jesus was the final perfect sacrifice for all of man's sins.

Do you understand?

So heaven and earth have passed away??

Nope. You're still confused. I would love to help you out. Try this.

The law was fulfilled in Jesus and all those who have faith in him have fulfilled the law. Jesus did it for us and by faith in him we are no longer condemned by the law. The punishment for sin is still death for all those who will not have faith in Jesus.

YOU are going to have to fulfill the law in order to be saved. Not me. I'm in Christ. Good luck.

So Jesus's word's were false?

Cause NOT one jot or title has been changed in the Torah.

 

[Jack Fate]

Here's something for you to think about.

Christians do not follow the OT laws. A lot of bad things happened in the OT, but how does that translate to what is happening today? Christians are not responsible for what happened thousands of years ago and they certainly are not living under OT laws and rituals.

Well, first of all, that's not entirely true. As I mentioned, in Uganda, the Christian government wants to put homosexuals to death, which comes right out of the Old Testament. Now, you might think "Its just Uganda, and it doesn't represent all Christianity," to which the retort would be "You are selectively dismissing a minority within Christianity as being representative of the entire religion but you are applying a double standard by arguing that a minority within Islam is representative of the entire religion." That is why I am saying you exhibiting confirmation bias and your argument is hypocritical.

Now that we have that cleared up, how do you accout for the barbaric inhumane terrorism that is happening today in the name of Allah all over the planet?

I agree that elements of Islam are barbaric. And that minority within Islam is much much larger than the Christian minority represented by the Ugandans above. The answer to your question is that all religions evolve within their societies. That's why we don't stone adulterers anymore, like we used to, whereas they still do in places like Iran. Our society has evolved to place human rights above religious edicts in the West whereas they still have not to the same degree in much of the Middle East. The reasons for this are vast and complex, far beyond the scope of anything here. But the West has evolved into a more compassionate and humane society than the Middle East, and religion has played only a minor role in this evolution.

I don't believe your Uganda story.

 

[CMike]

While you want to focus on all the "terrible things" in the OT, you ignore all the "terrible things" being done in the name of islam, TODAY. Comparing what is happening today with what was happening over two THOUSAND years ago, simply, shows, your intellectual dishonesty.

You miss the point.

Did you now that in the South, segregation was preached as being right and moral in the Church because Jesus was white and blacks didn't have souls? This was in the 20th century. Today, Ugandan Christians want to outlaw homosexuality by death. There is a law before the Uganda Parliament to do so. It is very popular. The sponsors of the bill are using Scripture as their justification. It says in the OT that homosexuals are to be put to death. You can go throughout history and see similar examples, such as the Crusades or the Inquisition.

People selectively use passages in the holy books to reinforce their own biases and beliefs, amongst other things. Christians brush aside the OT when it conveniently suits them to do so. That doesn't bother me because I don't believe the Bible is the literal word of God and societies evolve. But it bothers me when the same people then selectively pull out passages of other holy books to suit their own agendas. That's hypocrisy.

Here's something for you to think about.

Christians do not follow the OT laws. A lot of bad things happened in the OT, but how does that translate to what is happening today? Christians are not responsible for what happened thousands of years ago and they certainly are not living under OT laws and rituals.

Now that we have that cleared up, how do you accout for the barbaric inhumane terrorism that is happening today in the name of Allah all over the planet?

Pardon here.

You haven't seen jews mudering tens of thousands of people in the last 1,000 years because they didn't convert to their religion like christians and muslims have done.

 

[CMike]

He didn't "invalidate" the law, he fullfilled it. The law demanded sacrifices for our sins. Jesus was the final perfect sacrifice for all of man's sins.

Do you understand?

So heaven and earth have passed away??

Nope. You're still confused. I would love to help you out. Try this.

The law was fulfilled in Jesus and all those who have faith in him have fulfilled the law. Jesus did it for us and by faith in him we are no longer condemned by the law. The punishment for sin is still death for all those who will not have faith in Jesus.

YOU are going to have to fulfill the law in order to be saved. Not me. I'm in Christ. Good luck.

Deutoronmy Chapter 4

2. Do not add to the word which I command you, nor diminish from it, to observe the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

By "us" I hope you mean christians and not jews.

Jews still believe in G-D.

 

[Sunni Man]

Jews still believe in G-D.

Most Jews are secular and don't believe in G-d

But, all Jews believe in the "All Mighty Dollar" as their religion.

 

[Adamo]

Jews still believe in G-D.

Most Jews are secular and don't believe in G-d

But, all Jews believe in the "All Mighty Dollar" as their religion.

Man, if you get any dumber, you might even get kicked out of islam. To be a jew, you need to believe in god. Anyone who doesn't believe in god is either an agnostic or an atheist.

 

[CMike]

Jews still believe in G-D.

Most Jews are secular and don't believe in G-d

But, all Jews believe in the "All Mighty Dollar" as their religion.

I believe you gotta believe in targeting innocent women and children for murder.

 

[Sunni Man]

Man, if you get any dumber, you might even get kicked out of islam. To be a jew, you need to believe in god. Anyone who doesn't believe in god is either an agnostic or an atheist.

It used to be that way.

Today many Jews don't believe in G-d.

But when asked will say that they are Jewish.

 

[Adamo]

Man, if you get any dumber, you might even get kicked out of islam. To be a jew, you need to believe in god. Anyone who doesn't believe in god is either an agnostic or an atheist.

It used to be that way.

Today many Jews don't believe in G-d.

But when asked will say that they are Jewish.

Doesn't mean they are jewish. I could say that I'm an alien, but it doesn't make me so.

 

[Dr Grump]

You miss the point.

Did you now that in the South, segregation was preached as being right and moral in the Church because Jesus was white and blacks didn't have souls? This was in the 20th century. Today, Ugandan Christians want to outlaw homosexuality by death. There is a law before the Uganda Parliament to do so. It is very popular. The sponsors of the bill are using Scripture as their justification. It says in the OT that homosexuals are to be put to death. You can go throughout history and see similar examples, such as the Crusades or the Inquisition.

People selectively use passages in the holy books to reinforce their own biases and beliefs, amongst other things. Christians brush aside the OT when it conveniently suits them to do so. That doesn't bother me because I don't believe the Bible is the literal word of God and societies evolve. But it bothers me when the same people then selectively pull out passages of other holy books to suit their own agendas. That's hypocrisy.

Here's something for you to think about.

Christians do not follow the OT laws. A lot of bad things happened in the OT, but how does that translate to what is happening today? Christians are not responsible for what happened thousands of years ago and they certainly are not living under OT laws and rituals.

Now that we have that cleared up, how do you accout for the barbaric inhumane terrorism that is happening today in the name of Allah all over the planet?

Pardon here.

You haven't seen jews mudering tens of thousands of people in the last 1,000 years because they didn't convert to their religion like christians and muslims have done.

Obviously haven't heard of the Spanish Inquisition...

 

[elvis]

Here's something for you to think about.

Christians do not follow the OT laws. A lot of bad things happened in the OT, but how does that translate to what is happening today? Christians are not responsible for what happened thousands of years ago and they certainly are not living under OT laws and rituals.

Now that we have that cleared up, how do you accout for the barbaric inhumane terrorism that is happening today in the name of Allah all over the planet?

Pardon here.

You haven't seen jews mudering tens of thousands of people in the last 1,000 years because they didn't convert to their religion like christians and muslims have done.

Obviously haven't heard of the Spanish Inquisition...

I think you may have read his post backwards.

 

[Toro]

I don't believe your Uganda story.

I'm sure you don't. That's an example of confirmation bias.

There are lots of articles about it on the Internet. Here is one.

... [Martin] Ssempa's animated style has made him one of the most popular preachers in the African nation of Uganda. But it's his virulent homophobia that's put him at the center of an international uproar. The pornographic images, which reduced some of the churchgoers to tears, were meant to whip up support for a bill under consideration in Uganda that would make some gays and lesbians eligible for the death penalty.

The bill was introduced several months after a visit by several American evangelicals, who spoke at a conference called the "Seminar on Exposing the Homosexual Agenda."

One of them was Scott Lively, a pastor from Springfield, MA, who believes that countries like Uganda can still protect themselves from what he sees as the scourge of the gay agenda.

"These are good Christians; better Christians than there are here in the states," says Lively. "They care about each other. And I think the reason they're pushing so hard on this law is that they don't want to see what happened to our country happen over there." ...

Lively, who is the president of Defend the Family, is also the author of a book called "The Pink Swastika", which argues that the Nazi Party was a homosexual movement. ...

While there, the three American Christians also met with members of the Ugandan parliament.

Months later, a bill was introduced called The Anti-Homosexuality Bill of 2009.

The bill creates a new category of crime called "Aggravated Homosexuality," which calls for death by hanging for gays or lesbians who have sex with anyone under 18 and for so-called "serial offenders."

The bill also calls for seven years in prison for "attempt to commit homosexuality," five years for landlords who knowingly house gays, three years for anyone, including parents, who fail to hand gay children over to the police within 24 hours and the extradition of gay Ugandans living abroad. ...

Val Kalende, a lesbian, said it's dangerous just to walk down the street. "Just the other day a colleague of mine was detained and questioned by police," she said. "Every time you come back home safe, you thank God you are safe. But then you don't know what's going to happen the next day."

Kalende said that while Uganda has always been a homophobic country, things got worse after the conference the American evangelicals spoke at.

"So those guys should be held accountable for what is happening to us," she said. "And I hope that the people in America can hold these guys accountable for what is going to happen to us if this bill ever passes." ...

The American evangelicals who spoke at that event in Uganda back in March are now rushing to distance themselves from the bill.

"I do not agree with that bill at all," said Brundidge. "That's not why I went there at all."

Lively also claims he had no idea the bill was coming, and denies any responsibility for it, despite the fact that he compared his visit to Uganda to a nuclear bomb exploding.

And he repudiated the notion that he empowered the Ugandan parliament to introduce the legislation. "Do you think that these people did not already have an opinion, a strong opinion, on homosexuality?" he asked. "It's a very racist perspective. It's the colonial mind-set all over again."

That's an argument echoed by the main proponents of the bill in Uganda.

"It's offensive to me," said Ssempa. "It's offensive to me that every time a black man does something good, you have to say that a white man told us to do it. That's really offensive to me. We feel that even those Americans who came here, they are wimps. And they have been blamed for this law. They've all screamed no, we have nothing to do with it. Why don't we accept that Africans can make an anti-homosexuality law? Why do you have to blame somebody else?" ...

As for Lively, he says if they drop the death penalty, he'll actually endorse it. ...

Anti-Homosexuality Bill In Uganda Causes Global Uproar - ABC News