Most successful fighter in WWII

[Vrenn]

I feel like getting into a knock down and tumble fight. What long ranged fighter had the most affect for the Allies in WWII?

Pretty much, you can discount all British Fighters. Yes, even the coveted Mossie. If the Mossie found it's way into a one v one against a FW190, it was time to get the hell out of there using it's top speed. Therefore, Fighter Sweeps, Bomber Escorts and such were out of the question. And none of the fighters produced in a large quantity had the range to go very far into France much less Germany.

It brings it down to the big 3. The P-38, P-47 and P-51.

The first "Fighter" that was over Berlin ended up there by itself because it's bomber group turned back an no one told the fighters. That was 1943. So they turned it into something brand new, a Fighter sweep. Wonderful success. At that time, the only P-51 that was available was the Allisson Engined A model and it neither had the range nor the altitude to do the job. The A-36 Apache was just a P-51A depending what country was flying it. At that time, the only 400mph+ fighter was the Lightning and it had more than enough range to reach berlin, cause havoc and return. The problem is, starting in 1942 to the middle of 1943, they made the P-38 fly with the bombers. This resulted in the P-38 to be closer to his stall speed than his combat speed. No fighter could protect the bombers like that. Plus, all the mechanical problems that were completely ironed out by August 1943 and had the J models in the field. At the same time, they released the P-38 to fly ahead and above the fighters and ambush enemy fighter formation. This also allowed the P-47 to get a big string of air kills because they did this up to the German Border escorting bombers. The Luftwaffe was finally starting to lose in a big way and more and more bombers got through. Until then the P-38G and below had all sorts of problems not related to the Aircraft itself. The lack of training on twin engine Fighters (the P-38 was the only one in AAF and the 2 seater humpback wasn't introduced yet), the cockpit was below zero at 20K and higher and there was no heat. They did try and use Bomber Heated Flight Suits but that was just a stopgap. In 1942, until the middle of 1943, the Luftwaffe outnumbered the P-38 11 to 1 the the Luftwaffe had a 11 to one kill rate. From August 1943 to the end, the P-38s chalked up a 11 to 1 kill rate. Both the P-38 and P-47 would strafe on their way back and destroy a whole bunch of trains, trucks and other military targets all through the war.

The P-47 was introduced in numbers in 1942. But it had a range problem. As long as it was in range, it was a mighty fighter as long as you kept it off the deck. All the good things I said about the P-38 also goes for the P-47 except it didn't operate over Germany until the allies had bases in France. Without it, though, the allies would have run completely out of P-38s and daylight bombers.

The P-51 was originally introduced as the A-36A or the P-51A. It used the Allisson Engine without the turbosupercharger. Meaning, it was pretty good from 15K and below but above that and it ran out of power fast. It wasn't much better than a P-40. But when it was married to the Packard Merlin with the 2 Speed 2 Stage Supercharger, it really woke up. While the first B flew in late 1942, it didn't go into full production until September 1943. By then, the P-38J-25 was already being used. The P-51C was produced starting in October 1943 and was the same as the B, just out of a different city. What the AAF had to look at is, the P-51B/C took half the training and cost half as much as a P-38J-25 even though the P-38 was the better overall fighter. What slowed the P-38 down for bomber escort was when lemay decided to do a test between the P-51B and P-47 to find out which one was the better Bomber Escort. He left out the P-38. The P-51B narrowly won as they had not completely figured out the proper way to distrubute the P-51 fuel load yet. Before they figured that out, there were still days when the p-38 was chosen for bomber escort when the B-24s went to eastern Germany which was beyond the range of the p-51 or when they ran out of P-51s. The P-51B didn't start to come into England until late December and early January. By then, the P-38 and the P-47 had severely cut down the Luftwaffe. Oh, there still were plenty to shoot at but not like it was. By the time the Mustang came in force, they were well into the fighter sweeps. BTW, the worst of the 3 for the ground fighter sweeps was the P-51.

Overall, I would have to pick the P-38 which would narrowly win out over the P-47 for the most affective WWII long ranged fighter. The P-51 had slightly more than a year of participation while the other two slugged it out all the way through.

 

[DudleySmith]

The British Air War was the most important to the war effort. Without them England would have not have been as big a player in the war effort early on, when it mattered the most. We would have had to invade Europe from the Med or even via Iran, and the bombing campaign wouldn't have happened, leaving the Soviets pretty much dead as a threat. What happened in the West affected the fate of the East. As it was the Soviets couldn't launch an offensive til the summer of '43, and that was very nearly a disaster for them. Without the air war from England leveling German ctiies and sucking almost all of the Luftwaffe and the anti-aircraft guns out of the eastern front to cover Germany the Soviets would have gone nowhere.

 

[Vrenn]

The British Air War was the most important to the war effort. Without them England would have not have been as big a player in the war effort early on, when it mattered the most. We would have had to invade Europe from the Med or even via Iran, and the bombing campaign wouldn't have happened, leaving the Soviets pretty much dead as a threat. What happened in the West affected the fate of the East. As it was the Soviets couldn't launch an offensive til the summer of '43, and that was very nearly a disaster for them. Without the air war from England leveling German ctiies and sucking almost all of the Luftwaffe and the anti-aircraft guns out of the eastern front to cover Germany the Soviets would have gone nowhere.

From the time that the US entered the ETO war to about June 1943, we were getting our asses handed to us. There was a lot of sacrifice towards the long run that the US paid with the early Long Range Daylight Bombing. When almost every sortie had a 35% loss rate, within just a few months they would have run out of air crews to crew the new bombers. While I prefer the Fighters (Sexy), the real heroes are the bomber crews.

 

[DudleySmith]

the real heroes are the bomber crews.

Yes. While we were losing here and there, we still tied up German assets, while the Soviets were getting mowed down like wheat. Looking at the western and Med fronts we inflicting nearly the same casualties on the Axis as the Soviets were, with far less losses of our own. Plus the Germans knew they could mostly surrender to the western allies while surrendering to the Soviets wasn't an option. I read one commentary where the author claimed the Germans who surrendered to the U.S. forces were surprised they weren't fed steaks as POWs. lol maybe apocryphal but it expressed a real thing at the time.

 

[Kruska]

Well I can offer the German - aka Luftwaffe perspective on this matter.

My father, his two brothers (both uncles died during the war), were Luftwaffe pilots. Due to my father I was acquainted with around 14 other Luftwaffe pilots - who had also served later in the new Luftwaffe. some of them actually quite known Luftwaffe pilots.

In general their view was expressed as; when we fought the English we matched the overall pilot qualifications of our opponents a 100%. When the Americans came in we could barley match 50% of our pilots with the Allies. From mid 1944 onward besides an insignificant number of surviving Luftwaffe pilots - mostly composed by those who had been relegated to flight-schools, Factory-evaluation and pickup-flight units or courier-flight duties - there was no Luftwaffe in regards to a pilots qualification anymore.

As such no matter which Allied aircraft they faced from 1944 onward - those who were even able to meet up with Allied fighters, were either shot down or managed to make a run back to home. Those Luftwaffe pilots who were set onto US bomber units - naturally were faced in majority by P-38's and P-51's. And they were rightfully in awe towards any of these two aircraft's. (not to mention the bomber formation and their own defensive firepower) Those experienced Luftwaffe pilots engaging P-38's due to intercepting ground-attack or recon flights - did not consider the P-38 to be "special"- rather the opposite. The P-47's and P-51's were deemed to be equal - not superior.
It is due to the sneak up and hit and run tactic employed by most pilots regardless of nationality - that made the kill, not really the respective aircraft's ability. This only came in during a dogfight (a very rare occurring situation) from 1943 onward, or during the escape run whilst being followed up or chased by 3-6 Allied aircraft in average.

The Allied aircraft that my father and most of his friends "respected" were the respective Spitfire variants (great and mostly superior aircraft) and from 1944 onward the Hawker Tempest V - especially during confrontations near ground to mid level altitude. Way stronger engines then the Luftwaffe fighters and enormously acrobatic.

In regards to the P-51, I can only forward my father stating: Those cowboys were never alone, usually more then 8 of them against one of us - luckily we could identify them from far away due to their blinking/reflecting surfaces. Most off their kills that I witnessed were in regards of Luftwaffe aircraft during the landing approach.

 

[Vrenn]

Well I can offer the German - aka Luftwaffe perspective on this matter.

My father, his two brothers (both uncles died during the war), were Luftwaffe pilots. Due to my father I was acquainted with around 14 other Luftwaffe pilots - who had also served later in the new Luftwaffe. some of them actually quite known Luftwaffe pilots.

In general their view was expressed as; when we fought the English we matched the overall pilot qualifications of our opponents a 100%. When the Americans came in we could barley match 50% of our pilots with the Allies. From mid 1944 onward besides an insignificant number of surviving Luftwaffe pilots - mostly composed by those who had been relegated to flight-schools, Factory-evaluation and pickup-flight units or courier-flight duties - there was no Luftwaffe in regards to a pilots qualification anymore.

As such no matter which Allied aircraft they faced from 1944 onward - those who were even able to meet up with Allied fighters, were either shot down or managed to make a run back to home. Those Luftwaffe pilots who were set onto US bomber units - naturally were faced in majority by P-38's and P-51's. And they were rightfully in awe towards any of these two aircraft's. (not to mention the bomber formation and their own defensive firepower) Those experienced Luftwaffe pilots engaging P-38's due to intercepting ground-attack or recon flights - did not consider the P-38 to be "special"- rather the opposite. The P-47's and P-51's were deemed to be equal - not superior.
It is due to the sneak up and hit and run tactic employed by most pilots regardless of nationality - that made the kill, not really the respective aircraft's ability. This only came in during a dogfight (a very rare occurring situation) from 1943 onward, or during the escape run whilst being followed up or chased by 3-6 Allied aircraft in average.

The Allied aircraft that my father and most of his friends "respected" were the respective Spitfire variants (great and mostly superior aircraft) and from 1944 onward the Hawker Tempest V - especially during confrontations near ground to mid level altitude. Way stronger engines then the Luftwaffe fighters and enormously acrobatic.

In regards to the P-51, I can only forward my father stating: Those cowboys were never alone, usually more then 8 of them against one of us - luckily we could identify them from far away due to their blinking/reflecting surfaces. Most off their kills that I witnessed were in regards of Luftwaffe aircraft during the landing approach.

Thank you. We rarely get to hear from the "Other" side. I do think you backed up what I said about the beginning of and the affect of the fighter sweeps that were started in the second half of 1943 where is shifted from 100% to 50%. You lost a lot of gifted pilots that could not be easily replaced. Having equipment sitting on the ground with no one or novices to fly them doesn't win wars. It just sacrifices young people.

 

[Kruska]

........ I do think you backed up what I said about the beginning of and the affect of the fighter sweeps that were started in the second half of 1943 where is shifted from 100% to 50%. You lost a lot of gifted pilots that could not be easily replaced. Having equipment sitting on the ground with no one or novices to fly them doesn't win wars. It just sacrifices young people.

Yes well put by you as well - thanks.
My father's and some of his friends "negative" input towards the P-51, I think derived from the fact that the vast if not all his encounters with the P-51 were due to his task of being in charge of a Platzschutzstaffel" - Air-field protection squadron for the Me 262's towards the closing month and as such naturally being a favorite target for the "cowboys".

Putting all the information together that I posses - the best Allied fighter aircraft were the Spitfire MK XIV and the P-51 - more or less impossible to determine the No.1.
According to my father and one of his surviving squadron mates, the best fighter aircraft was however the Fw 190D-13 (I think 10-15 build) - don't laugh - and my father being the lucky chap to have flown that bird for 2-3 month.

 

[TroglocratsRdumb]

The P-47 was designed to be a high-altitude escort plane.
But it was a much better ground assault plane.
It had 8 .50s.
It could carry 2500lb of bombs, or 10 5 inch rockets.
It was like the A-10 of WWII.
They used it to destroy tanks.
They named the A-10 after the P-47 Thunderbolt

 

[Sunni Man]

P-38 was a formidable two engine fighter that had four 50-caliber machine guns and a 20-mm cannon mounted in the nose of the plane. Which is why enemy pilots knew to never to engage in a frontal attack with with a P-38. Because all the bullets and cannon shells had a straight flat trajectory, meaning the pilot could accurately hit targets further out front. Unlike most fighter planes that had wing mounted guns where the bullets were set up to crisscross at a predetermined range to hit their target.

Both of the 12 cylinder Allison engines had turbochargers, which made it arguably the best high altitude allied fighter of the war. The most successful tactic of P-38 pilots was to loiter around at high altitudes above allied bomber formations until an enemy fighter was spotted below and then swoop down and shoot it out of the sky.

American pilots loved the P-38's tricycle under-carriage and the counter-rotating propellers that eliminated dangerous torque to one side. Making the P-38 a very safe plane to take off and land.

Whereas, most fighters had tail dragging landing gear that restricted the pilot's frontal view during both take off and landing. Plus, they had a single high powered engine with a large propeller that produced a massive amount of rotating torque to one side. Making a the plane want to flip over and crash during take off, which resulted in the death of many inexperienced pilots.

Both the P-38 and P-51 were very vulnerable when used for ground attack. Because they had liquid cooled engines with radiators. Just a single enemy bullet that pierced the cooling system. Would allow the coolant to pour out, the engine to quickly over heat, seize up, and bring down the plane.
Since ground attack strafing takes place at a very low altitude. Parachuting the stricken P-38 or P-51 wasn't an option. If there wasn't a flat open field for the pilot to glide to and land. The outcome many times wasn't good.

German Luftwaffe pilots knew the best way to defeat the P-38 was to force it into a close in turning dog fight. Because both the ME-109 and FW-190 could easily out turn the P-38 and shoot it down.

Although the Luftwaffe pilots respected the awesome fire power of the P-38., very few thought the P-38 was the best allied fighter they had to contend with during the war.

Where the P-38 excelled during WWll was in the Pacific theater against the legendary Japanese Zero fighter.

American pilots liked both the extraordinary long range of the P-38 and the added security of having two engines to help them return home if one of the plane's engines was disabled somewhere over the vast Pacific ocean.

Japanese fighter planes didn't have self-sealing gas tanks. So just one hit from the P-38 machine gun's 50-caliber tracer round or the 20-mm cannon into the gas tank. Would immediately turn a Zero into a flaming torch falling into the ocean.
The top two American "Ace's" during WWll flew
the P-38 in the Pacific theater against the Japanese

 

[Mushroom]

In general their view was expressed as; when we fought the English we matched the overall pilot qualifications of our opponents a 100%. When the Americans came in we could barley match 50% of our pilots with the Allies.

I think that early in the war, the biggest difference with how the Americans operated was because of their equipment. At that time, nations like Germany and Japan had actual battle proven aircraft, and battle experienced aviators. And they were flying tested and proven aircraft models where as the Americans had aircraft that were inferior and no real hands on experience. Therefore, they adopted newer techniques in order to offset that advantage.

That is why the US developed such tactics as the "Thatch Weave", where two or more pilots working in tandem with an inferior F4 Wildcat could take down a Japanese A6M5. The US had actually been testing and improving tandem tactics even before the war started, and has never stopped improving the tactics. The closest the German Air forces had used a similar tactic of two man teams. However, they would then have one pilot take off after the enemy while the other scanned for other threats. So it was essentially a plane on plane dogfight with another doing lookout. Not the two pilots working together as a team as the US did.

Which only helped them even more in the end, as the US industry finally did start to roll out much more advanced aircraft, and the pilots got the actual experience they needed.

 

[Kruska]

I think that early in the war, the biggest difference with how the Americans operated was because of their equipment. At that time, nations like Germany and Japan had actual battle proven aircraft, and battle experienced aviators. And they were flying tested and proven aircraft models where as the Americans had aircraft that were inferior and no real hands on experience. Therefore, they adopted newer techniques in order to offset that advantage.

That is why the US developed such tactics as the "Thatch Weave", where two or more pilots working in tandem with an inferior F4 Wildcat could take down a Japanese A6M5. The US had actually been testing and improving tandem tactics even before the war started, and has never stopped improving the tactics. The closest the German Air forces had used a similar tactic of two man teams. However, they would then have one pilot take off after the enemy while the other scanned for other threats. So it was essentially a plane on plane dogfight with another doing lookout. Not the two pilots working together as a team as the US did.

Which only helped them even more in the end, as the US industry finally did start to roll out much more advanced aircraft, and the pilots got the actual experience they needed.

It is certainly correct to state that the US fly-boy's didn't have the "practical" experience prior to the war, small exception US pilots serving in the RAF or the ROC (Flying Tigers).
But this Luftwaffe "experience" is still an extremely overrated topic in WW2 literature.

The amount of Luftwaffe fighter pilots that had served in the Spanish Civil war (like my father) wasn't really significant - and they had losses too, but tactical experience was brought in by those pilots to their home-units in Germany. Supposedly the 4 finger formation (Schwarm) broken down into two wings (Rotte) was developed by the Luftwaffe during their tour of Spain.
However the RAF had already developed the same basic principle on their own and started to make use of it during the Luftwaffe attacks onto the Lowlands and France.

Radar had even enabled the RAF to develop tactics involving very large formations - which the Luftwaffe only managed to achieve by the mid of 1942.

However without a doubt the nation with the most elaborate-extensive flight training already before the war, was the USA. And this really stared to pay off once the USA entered the war.
The average US rookie before the war had 250 training flight hours under his belt - before even being transferred into an active unit, gaining a further 50-100 flying hours.

The Luftwaffe (Generation of the Aces, or Battle of Britain) had 200h in average - there are very few Luftwaffe pilots like my father who had 350h+ before the war broke out.
Due to Hitler constantly using the Luftwaffe as his main "intimidation" force during 1936-39 towards the Brits and French in regards to the Rhineland occupation, annexation of Austria and Sudetenland - almost all basic flight schools were working at half capacity, the advanced flight schools at 30-50% and the fighter schools were almost entirely out of operation from 1937 to 1939 - the remains of Jagdfliegerschule Schleissheim (only 1 of two in existence) was down to a single squadron.

As such the advanced flying school and fighter-school experience could only be obtained at the respective active wings - and a lot of brown-nosing was required to get that additional experience. Off these approx. 2000 Luftwaffe fighter-pilots with what the Luftwaffe considered to be the best (in regards to training hours and Spain experience) - around 60% lost their lives during the Lowland/France and BoB. What came after that had approximately 100-120h of combined flight training. from 1943 this figure dropped to 60-80h and from end of 1944 it was around 30-40h. 1945 onward most of these boys could even get their aircraft of the ground.

Germany's top ace Hartmann, received his basic fight training at the school lead at the time by my uncle. He wasn't even considered to be a good pilot. By the time he reached his front-unit, minus the private hours he had obtained due to his mother and glider school - his total flight-hours comprised of less the 120h. IIRC he and his mates even busted a bunch of Ju-87's that they were supposed to transfer to the front. He was one of those very few who "enjoyed" and "survived" rigorous advanced flight training at his active unit for more then 6! month.

The Luftwaffe's advantage in the first year of the war - was the element of surprise attacks (Blitzkrieg) that accounted for more then 70% of enemy aircraft destroyed on the ground. Similar results were obtained in the first 6 month upon attacking the SU. Actually exactly as to what later the Luftwaffe faced in regards to Allied superiority in numbers
with most of the Luftwaffe assets being destroyed on the ground.

The US aircraft also are constantly underrated in the common literature. Germany's supposedly best fighter-aircraft the Fw-190 was in vast majority allocated towards ground attack wings and not fighter-wings. So the Luftwaffe's main fighter component was made up of Bf-109's and their variants.

The Americans had the P-38, P-39, F4f and the P-40 - all four basically more or less on par with the Bf-109 - and an even better aspect towards versatility. Even the P-36A was accredited with downing two A6M2 Zero's during the Pearl-harbor attack. Now add an average of 250 training flight-hours on top of that - and the best prepared air-force in 1940-1941 was already that of the USA. Put on top the production output of aircraft and training output of pilots from Jan 1943 onward plus the new aircraft types as the P-47, P-51, F4U-4 and F6f - impossible to match for any other air-force.

I can't quite follow onto your perception of the Luftwaffe wing-man - just having a lookout. He was totally integrated by the leader so as to take advantage if the leader overshot, missed the target, failed towards total distruction or the opponent out-maneuvering the leader. (flight curve interception). it was not uncommon for the wing-man to actually make the kill once a dogfight ensued.
However many Luftwaffe pilots with, "sore throats" (eager for a Knights Cross) claimed their respective wing-man's contribution, couldn't care less about their wing-mans safety, or even ordered their wing-man to stay out of their target pursue.
There is a reason why amongst the surviving long time Luftwaffe pilots - those NAZI propagated/chosen Aces, later Allied literature propagated aces - were in majority disliked - even hated. Galland, Wick, Gollob, Marseille and v. Werra - were some of the most prominent characters amongst those kind of pilots during the BoB.

Germany had lost the war on the ground, on the sea and in the air the moment the US started to supply the UK and the SU prior to even the USA entering the war themselves.

 

[Mushroom]

It is certainly correct to state that the US fly-boy's didn't have the "practical" experience prior to the war, small exception US pilots serving in the RAF or the ROC (Flying Tigers).
But this Luftwaffe "experience" is still an extremely overrated topic in WW2 literature.

The amount of Luftwaffe fighter pilots that had served in the Spanish Civil war (like my father) wasn't really significant - and they had losses too, but tactical experience was brought in by those pilots to their home-units in Germany.

But those pilots that left to fly for other organizations like the RAF or Flying Tigers did not return to the US to pass along their experience. Those in England stayed in England, those that fought in China stayed in China.

One of the very few who did was Greg "Pappy" Boyington. Who did indeed resign from the Marines to join the AVG. And in China he was credited with 6 kills However, by April 1942 he left the AVG and returned to the US, rejoining the Marines in September of that year. And was quickly snapped up as a squadron XO to help teach the newer pilots a bit of how the Japanese fought from firsthand experience. And who eventually shot down another 22 aircraft before going down himself in January 1944 and spending the rest of the war as a POW.

But VMF-214, the squadron he led is legendary, and has an amazing combat record. Mostly because they were led by a pilot that did have extensive experience in fighting the Japanese.

I for one never discount the experience that those that had been into combat can impart onto those who have not. That is all the difference in the world between the US Army that landed in Africa during Operation Torch, and the US Army that stormed the beaches in Normandy. It was the same Army, but two years of combat experience had made it a very different Army. Just as the Red Army of 1941 was not the Red Army of 1943 when it went on the offensive and started pushing back the Germans.

 

[Vrenn]

Yes well put by you as well - thanks.
My father's and some of his friends "negative" input towards the P-51, I think derived from the fact that the vast if not all his encounters with the P-51 were due to his task of being in charge of a Platzschutzstaffel" - Air-field protection squadron for the Me 262's towards the closing month and as such naturally being a favorite target for the "cowboys".

Putting all the information together that I posses - the best Allied fighter aircraft were the Spitfire MK XIV and the P-51 - more or less impossible to determine the No.1.
According to my father and one of his surviving squadron mates, the best fighter aircraft was however the Fw 190D-13 (I think 10-15 build) - don't laugh - and my father being the lucky chap to have flown that bird for 2-3 month.

As for the Dora, I may agree with you. It was fast, quick and rugged. It took punishment almost as well as the P-47 and had the firepower of the P-38. It also operated at almost all altitudes equally well. The big 3 allied fighters didn't have that advantage. And the Dora took away the speed advantage that the P-38 and P-47 had early on. While this was about the most affective long ranged allied fighter, the most dangerous Luftwaffe fighter would have to be the Dora.

 

[westwall]

Yes well put by you as well - thanks.
My father's and some of his friends "negative" input towards the P-51, I think derived from the fact that the vast if not all his encounters with the P-51 were due to his task of being in charge of a Platzschutzstaffel" - Air-field protection squadron for the Me 262's towards the closing month and as such naturally being a favorite target for the "cowboys".

Putting all the information together that I posses - the best Allied fighter aircraft were the Spitfire MK XIV and the P-51 - more or less impossible to determine the No.1.
According to my father and one of his surviving squadron mates, the best fighter aircraft was however the Fw 190D-13 (I think 10-15 build) - don't laugh - and my father being the lucky chap to have flown that bird for 2-3 month.

The D-13

Yes well put by you as well - thanks.
My father's and some of his friends "negative" input towards the P-51, I think derived from the fact that the vast if not all his encounters with the P-51 were due to his task of being in charge of a Platzschutzstaffel" - Air-field protection squadron for the Me 262's towards the closing month and as such naturally being a favorite target for the "cowboys".

Putting all the information together that I posses - the best Allied fighter aircraft were the Spitfire MK XIV and the P-51 - more or less impossible to determine the No.1.
According to my father and one of his surviving squadron mates, the best fighter aircraft was however the Fw 190D-13 (I think 10-15 build) - don't laugh - and my father being the lucky chap to have flown that bird for 2-3 month.

There is I believe one D13 left, it has been moved to Arkansas and is part of the Walton collection.

I knew the man who initially saved it from destruction. He was a prolific collector based in Santa Barbara. Champlin, who I knew very well, purchased the fighter for his fighter museum from that man.

 

[AZrailwhale]

As for the Dora, I may agree with you. It was fast, quick and rugged. It took punishment almost as well as the P-47 and had the firepower of the P-38. It also operated at almost all altitudes equally well. The big 3 allied fighters didn't have that advantage. And the Dora took away the speed advantage that the P-38 and P-47 had early on. While this was about the most affective long ranged allied fighter, the most dangerous Luftwaffe fighter would have to be the Dora.

The problem is that the Dora didn’t enter service until 1944. By that time it wasn’t up against the first generation P47Bs, P38Gs and P-51As, it was fighting P-47Ds, P-38Ls and P-51Ds. It was built in small numbers and got few kills.

 

[Kruska]

But those pilots that left to fly for other organizations like the RAF or Flying Tigers did not return to the US to pass along their experience. Those in England stayed in England, those that fought in China stayed in China.

That is new to me, but okay I will take your word for it.

I for one never discount the experience that those that had been into combat can impart onto those who have not. That is all the difference in the world between the US Army that landed in Africa during Operation Torch, and the US Army that stormed the beaches in Normandy. It was the same Army, but two years of combat experience had made it a very different Army. Just as the Red Army of 1941 was not the Red Army of 1943 when it went on the offensive and started pushing back the Germans.

Neither would I, just ignore or discount combat experience, it's absolutely essential. It's exactly what the Luftwaffe more or less totally lacked.

There is a huge difference of forwarding that experience to US pilots - whilst getting a 250h+ training - unobstructed by the enemy under great weather conditions and conducted with reliable 1st grade training and front-line aircraft, and the rotation cycle of the USAAF experienced pilots, compared to those conditions the Luftwaffe faced, who had in average less then a 100h, and couldn't afford a rotation cycle amongst their most experienced pilots. Therefore my argument that the Luftwaffe's cited "experience" is in general very overrated.

 

[westwall]

As for the Dora, I may agree with you. It was fast, quick and rugged. It took punishment almost as well as the P-47 and had the firepower of the P-38. It also operated at almost all altitudes equally well. The big 3 allied fighters didn't have that advantage. And the Dora took away the speed advantage that the P-38 and P-47 had early on. While this was about the most affective long ranged allied fighter, the most dangerous Luftwaffe fighter would have to be the Dora.

If you are going to just go by air to air kills it is the P-47. I knew Hub Zemke very well and I learned a lot about the air war from him, and also from Gunther Rall with whom I had a long friendship.

From them I learned three important things.

Pilot quality was absolutely the most important thing. Good pilots could make even obsolete aircraft deadly opponents.

The aircraft that were successful needed to be able to get where the action was. No range, no fighting. Further, they needed a good balance of maneuverability and firepower.

And lastly they needed to be used correctly. A P-51 was terrible for ground attack, they used them for that, but the water cooled engines were susceptible to damage from small arms fire that a radial engined fighter, like the P-47, would simply shrug off.

The P-38 did an excellent job in the Pacific, but not as well in Europe. At one point one fighter group equipped with them had a kill ratio of 1/20.

The 56th FG with P-47s, had the highest success of all fighter groups with a 7/1 kill ratio. The P-51 equipped 4th FG only managed a kill ratio of 3.8/1.

Granted, by the time the P-51 showed up in quantity the bulk of the Luftwaffe was in decline in pilots, aircraft, and most importantly fuel, so their training was severely impacted because of that.

 

[AZrailwhale]

The problem is that the Dora didn’t enter service until 1944. By that time it wasn’t up against the first generation P47Bs, P38Gs and P-51As, it was fighting P-47Ds, P-38Ls and P-51Ds. It was built in small numbers and got few kills.

Another disadvantage it had was that it was a short ranged point defense interceptor. Its total range was barely five hundred miles. That a less than one hundred fifty mile combat radius. It had a shorter combat radius than a late model Me-109.

 

[Kruska]

The D-13


There is I believe one D13 left, it has been moved to Arkansas and is part of the Walton collection.

I knew the the man who initially saved it from destruction. He was a prolific collector based in Santa Barbara. Champlin, who I knew very well, purchased the fighter for his fighter museum from that man.

Yes, I am aware of that D-13 and it's background history. "fantastic" restoration effort indeed - a big thank you, to Mr. David Kyte and Mr. Champlin for that huge effort and great workmanship by Dave, GossHawk Inc. It was captured in Holland - the one my father flew, his comrade and another D-13 type were based around Lager-Lechfeld and Oberpaffenhofen (in regard to protecting the flight evaluation/testing of the Do-335).

Always wonder as to how the Do-335 would have fared in a 1944 scenario.

A further 2-3 examples including a D-15 were based around Laupheim - so probably not more then 6-7 off these D-13's having been in or seen action.

 

[westwall]

Yes, I am aware of that D-13 and it's background history. "fantastic" restoration effort indeed - a big thank you, to Mr. David Kyte and Mr. Champlin for that huge effort and great workmanship by Dave, GossHawk Inc. It was captured in Holland - the one my father flew, his comrade and another D-13 type were based around Lager-Lechfeld and Oberpaffenhofen (in regard to protecting the flight evaluation/testing of the Do-335).

Always wonder as to how the Do-335 would have fared in a 1944 scenario.

A further 2-3 examples including a D-15 were based around Laupheim - so probably not more then 6-7 off these D-13's having been in or seen action.

Yeah, the Arrow is an interesting concept.

Definitely the pinnacle of piston engined aircraft. I think probably too complex to keep operational by that stage of the war.

But had it had the resources it would have been a hell of a fighter.

I am still friends with David Kytes son, he is a pilot as well.