Are you a Bible literalist? Was the universe created in 6 days? Plenty of people believe in the Bible but consider it a theological work, not a historical one.
CDZ Moses Was a Real Historical Person
- Thread starter JimBowie1958
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So you admit the Jews were there first. Thank you.
Moses may have been a historical figure but the stories about him are a compilation of legends and myths that were told about him.
Sargon I of Akkad (2371-2316 BCE) had a similar legendary origin. His mother, a priestess who became impregnated by an anonymous pilgrim—possibly she was a temple prostitute—knew that all children born to her were destined to be sacrificed. Therefore, she gave birth in secret, placed the infant in a tar-daubed basket woven of rushes, and put the basket in the Euphrates river were it floated into an irrigation canal and was discovered by Akki, the royal gardener. The story of the infant Moses hidden in just such a basket among the bulrushes so that he would likewise escape being killed is too close to Sargon’s story to be coincidence. Since Sargon’s tale dates anywhere from 800 to 1100 years before Moses is likely to have lived, assuming Moses to be a historical character, the story in Exodus was the copy. Therefore the story of Moses’ birth was a typological fiction rather than true history. LINK
william the wie
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RA-Moses is a likely pronunciation of who we call Ramses
JimBowie1958
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It is a summary of various data I have found.
Here are my notes.
The Exodus - Wikipedia
Sources and parallels of the Exodus - Wikipedia
The Hyksos were a Semitic people whose arrival and departure from Ancient Egypt has sometimes been seen as broadly parallel to the biblical tale of the sojourn of the Israelites in Egypt.[39] Canaanite populations first appeared in Egypt towards the end of the 12th Dynasty c. 1800 BCE, and either around that time, or c. 1720 BCE, established an independent realm in the eastern Nile Delta. In about 1650 BCE, this realm was assumed by the rulers known as the Hyksos, who formed the 15th Dynasty of Egyptian pharaohs.[40][41]
In any case, the 16th Dynasty and the 17th Dynasty continued to rule in Upper Egypt (southern Egypt) in co-existence with the Hyksos kings, perhaps as their vassals. Eventually, Seqenenre Tao, Kamose and Ahmose I waged war against the Hyksos and expelled Khamudi, their last king, from Egypt c. 1550 BCE.[40]
The saga of the Hyksos was recorded by the Egyptian historian Manetho (3rd century BCE), chief priest at the Temple of Ra in Heliopolis, and is preserved in three quotations by the 1st century CE Jewish historian Titus Flavius Josephus.[46] In Manetho's History of Egypt, as retold by Josephus, Manetho describes the Hyksos, their lowly origins in Asia, their invasion and dominion over Egypt, their eventual expulsion, and their subsequent exile to Judea, and their establishing the city of Jerusalem and its temple. Manetho defined the Hyksos as being the Hyksos or "Shepherd Kings" or "Captive Shepherds" who invaded Egypt, destroying its cities and temples and making war with the Egyptian people to "gradually destroy them to the very roots". Following a war with the Egyptians a treaty was negotiated stipulating that these Hyksos Shepherds were to exit Egypt.[47]
Josephus said that Manetho's Hyksos narrative was a reliable Egyptian account about the Israelite Exodus, and that the Hyksos were 'our people'.[48][49][50] Martin Bernal found that a direct relationship between the Hyksos and Israelites is plausible, although it cannot be proven. He noted that the name of the pharaoh Yaqub-Har is similar to the name of the Israelite patriarch Jacob, and that the highest density of Hyksos scarabs is found in the Israelite West Bank.[51] Donald Redford said that the Exodus narrative is a Canaanite memory of the Hyksos' descent and occupation of Egypt.
Most modern historians reject any identification of the Hyksos with the Israelites, largely because it is generally believed that the early Israelites evolved within the land and culture of Canaan, rather than emerging from Egypt......
Thera Volcanic eruption ( between 1600 and 1525)
In her book The Parting of the Sea: How Volcanoes, Earthquakes, and Plagues Shaped the Story of the Exodus, geologist Barbara J. Sivertsen explored links between the biblical Exodus narrative, the Hyksos expulsion, and the Minoan (Thera) volcanic eruption.[58]
Apocalyptic rainstorms, which devastated much of Egypt, and were described on the Tempest Stele of Ahmose I, pharaoh of the Hyksos expulsion, have been attributed to short-term climatic changes caused by the Theran eruption.[59][60][61] In 2014, Nadine Moeller and Robert Ritner offered a new translation of the Tempest Stela. They believe the unusual weather patterns described on the slab were the result of a massive volcano explosion at Thera. They also suggest that the Egyptian pharaoh Ahmose I ruled at a time closer to the Thera eruption than previously thought.[62][63]
The difficulty with this interpretation is that in the conventional but disputed Egyptian chronology Ahmose I ruled from c. 1549–1524 BCE, whilst the eruption is thought to have occurred somewhere between 1642–1540 BCE. Alternatively, if the eruption occurred in the Second Intermediate Period, the absence of Egyptian records of the eruption could be caused by the general disorder in Egypt around that time.[citation needed]
Khyan - Wikipedia
1610?–1580 BC (15th Dynasty)
Seuserenre Khyan, Khian or Khayan was a king of the Hyksos Fifteenth dynasty of Egypt. His royal name Seuserenre translates as "The one whom Re has caused to be strong."[1] Khyan bears the titles of an Egyptian king, but also the title ruler of the foreign land (heqa-khaset). The later title is the typical designation of the Hyksos rulers.
Khyan is one of the better attested kings from the Hyksos period, known from many seals and seal impressions. Remarkable are objects with his name found at Knossos and Hattusha indicating diplomatic contacts with Crete and the Hittites. A sphinx with his name was bought on the art market at Baghdad and might demonstrate diplomatic contacts to Babylon.
The remains of a palace were recently excavated at Avaris. Seal impressions of Khyan were found there, indicating that this was his palace.
Khyan is identified with king Iannas in the works of Josephus whose knowledge of the Hyksos Pharaohs was derived from a history of Egypt written by Manetho. Josephus mentions him after Apophis when discussing the reign lengths of kings who ruled after Salitis. This led 18th century scholars such as Arthur Bedford to place Khyan after Apophis, towards the end of the Hyksos dynasty. However, in Sextus Julius Africanus' version of Manetho's Epitome, Khyan (whose name is transcribed there as Staan) is listed after a king Pachnan, perhaps Yaqub-Har. Stylistically Khyan's scarabs resemble closely those of Yaqub-Har, who might date rather to the beginning and not to the end of the Hyksos-period.[4][5] This indicates that Khyan was one of the earlier rulers of the 15th dynasty.
The early position of Khyan within the 15th dynasty may be confirmed by new archaeological finds at Edfu. On this site were found seal impressions of Khyan in close connection with seal impressions of the 13th Dynasty king Sobekhotep IV, indicating that both kings could have reigned at about the same time.[6] The scholars Moeller and Marouard discuss the discovery of an important early 12th dynasty Middle Kingdom administrative building in the eastern Tell Edfu area which was continuously employed into the early Second Intermediate Period before it fell out of use during the 17th dynasty when its remains were sealed by a large silo court. Fieldwork by Egyptologists in 2010 and 2011 into the remains of the former 12th dynasty building which was also used in the 13th dynasty led to the discovery of a large adjoining hall which proved to contain 41 sealings showing the cartouche of the Hyksos ruler Khyan together with 9 sealings naming the 13th dynasty king Sobekhotep IV. As Moeller and Marouard write: "These finds come from a secure and sealed archaeological context and open up new questions about the cultural and chronological evolution of the late Middle Kingdom and early Second Intermediate Period."[7] These conclusions are rejected by Robert Porter who argues that Khyan ruled much later than Sobekhotep IV and that the seals of a pharaoh were used even long after his death. Another option he proposed is that Sobekhotep IV reigned much later than previously thought.[8]
A stela of Khyan mentioning a king's son' was also discovered at Avaris. Manfred Bietak observed that: "a stela set up in Avaris contains the nomen and prenomen of Khyan and a now lost dedication (presumably to Seth, Lord of Avaris) below which are inscribed the title and name of the Eldest King's Son Yanassi." [9][10]
The Danish Egyptologist Kim Ryholt, who published an extensive catalogue of the monuments of all the numerous pharaohs of the Second Intermediate Period, notes an important personal detail regarding this king's family; Ryholt writes that the association of Khyan with those of his eldest son upon this stela suggests that Yanassi in fact was his designated successor, as also implied by his title." Ryholt speculates that Manetho might have mentioned Yanassi in a now lost passage and that one possible explanation of the name Iannas used by Josephus for Khyan is a misquotation of such a passage in which the son's name was extracted instead of the father's.
Yanassi - Wikipedia
Yanassi was a prince during the 15th Dynasty of Egypt. He was the eldest king's son of the Hyksos pharaoh Khyan and this title suggests that he was the crown prince, designated to be his successor. Nevertheless, Khyan was succeeded by Apophis who, for this reason, is believed to have been an usurper.[1]
Attestations[edit]
In spite of his status as the royal son of the long-reigning Khyan, Yanassi is not attested by any scarab seals but only by a damaged stela (Cairo TD-8422 [176]) found at Tell el-Dab'a, site of the ancient Hyksos capital, Avaris.[2][3] On the stela – which was probably dedicated to the god Seth, lord of Avaris – he is called the eldest king's son of Khyan.[1]
Apepi (pharaoh) - Wikipedia 35-40 years, ca. 1575 BC - 1540 BC
Rather than building his own monuments, Apepi generally usurped the monuments of previous pharaohs by inscribing his own name over two sphinxes of Amenemhat II and two statues of Imyremeshaw.[11] Apepi is thought to have usurped the throne of northern Egypt after the death of his predecessor, Khyan, since the latter had designated his son, Yanassi, to be his successor on the throne as a foreign ruler.[12] He was succeeded by Khamudi, the last Hyksos ruler. Ahmose I, who drove out the Hyksos kings from Egypt, established the 18th Dynasty.[11]
In the Ramesside era, Apepi is recorded as worshiping Seth in a monolatric way: "[He] chose for his Lord the god Seth. He didn't worship any other deity in the whole land except Seth." Jan Assmann argues that because the Ancient Egyptians could never conceive of a "lonely" god lacking personality, Seth the desert god, who was worshiped exclusively, represented a manifestation of evil.[13]
There is some discussion in Egyptology concerning whether Apepi also ruled Upper Egypt.
Merneptah Stele - Wikipedia
The Merneptah Stele—also known as the Israel Stele or the Victory Stele of Merneptah—is an inscription by the ancient Egyptian Pharaoh Merneptah (reign: 1213 to 1203 BC) discovered by Flinders Petrie in 1896 at Thebes, and now housed in the Egyptian Museum in Cairo.[1][2]
The text is largely an account of Merneptah's victory over the Libyans and their allies, but the last 3 of the 28 lines deal with a separate campaign in Canaan, then part of Egypt's imperial possessions. The stele is sometimes referred to as the "Israel Stela" because a majority of scholars translate a set of hieroglyphs in line 27 as "Israel". Alternative translations have been advanced but are not widely accepted.[3]
The stela represents the earliest textual reference to Israel and the only reference from ancient Egypt.[4] It is one of four known inscriptions, from the Iron Age, that date to the time of and mention ancient Israel, under this name, the others being the Mesha Stele, the Tel Dan Stele, and the Kurkh Monolith.[5][6][7] As a result, some consider the stele to be Flinders Petrie's most famous discovery,[8] an opinion with which Petrie himself concurred....
The bulk of the inscription deals with Merneptah's victory over the Libyans, but the last 3 of the 28 lines shift to Canaan:[12]
The princes are prostrate, saying, "Peace!"
Not one is raising his head among the Nine Bows.
Now that Tehenu (Libya) has come to ruin,
Hatti is pacified;
The Canaan has been plundered into every sort of woe:
Ashkelon has been overcome;
Gezer has been captured;
Yano'am is made non-existent.
Israel is laid waste and his seed is not;
Hurru is become a widow because of Egypt.
Fifteenth Dynasty of Egypt - Wikipedia
The 15th, 16th, and 17th Dynasties of ancient Egypt are often combined under the group title, Second Intermediate Period. The 15th Dynasty dates approximately from 1650 to 1550 BC.[1] The dynasty was foreign to ancient Egypt, founded by Salitis, a Hyksos from West Asia whose people had invaded the country and conquered Lower Egypt. ...
The 15th Dynasty of Egypt was the first Hyksos dynasty, ruled from Avaris, without control of the entire land. The Hyksos preferred to stay in northern Egypt since they infiltrated from the north-east. The names and order of kings is uncertain. The Turin King list indicates that there were six Hyksos kings, with an obscure Khamudi listed as the final king of the 15th Dynasty.
Salitis - Wikipedia
In the Manethonian tradition, Salitis (Greek, also Salatis or Saites) was the first Hyksos king, the one who subdued and ruled Lower Egypt and founded the 15th Dynasty.
Salitis is mainly known from few passages of Flavius Josephus' work Contra Apionem; for these passages, Josephus claimed to have reported Manetho's original words. It seems that during the reign of an Egyptian pharaoh called Tutimaios or Timaios, an army of foreigners suddenly came from the Near East and took over the Nile Delta without a fight. After conquering Memphis and likely deposing Tutimaios, the invaders committed several atrocities such as destroying cities and temples and killing or capturing the native Egyptians.[1] After that, they
“made one of their number, whose name was Salitis, king. He resided in Memphis and exacted tribute from both the upper and lower country, leaving fortresses in the most strategic places.”[2]
Salitis was determined to hold down his new conquests. For this reason he fortified the eastern borders, and sought a strategic position to establish an imposing stronghold from which he could dominate the independent-minded Upper Egyptians. Having found it in the city of Avaris on the east bank of the Bubastite branch of the Nile,[3]
“(Salitis) established this city and rendered it extremely secure with walls, settling there a large body of armed troops – as many as 240,000 men – as a frontier guard. He used to go there in the summer, partly to hand out rations and distribute pay, and partly to train them carefully in military exercises, to frighten foreigners.”[4]
Salitis died after 19 years of reign and his throne passed to another Asiatic called Bnon or Beon.[5] ...
Several attempts were made to identify Salitis with an archaeologically attested ruler. He was sometimes associated with a ruler named Sharek or Shalek – who is mentioned in a genealogical priestly document from Memphis – and also with the much more attested king Sheshi.[6][7] German Egyptologist Jürgen von Beckerath believed that Salitis could be associated with Yakbim, another second intermediate period ruler.[8] At the current state of knowledge, Salitis remains unidentified.[9][10]
Even for his name there are no clues of what it could have originally meant in Egyptian, though the variant Saites used by Sextus Julius Africanus in his epitome of Manetho, might contain a reference to the deltaic city of Sais. It has been suggested that the name might be linked to shallit, a title borne by the biblical patriarch Joseph during his stay in Egypt (Genesis 42:6) with the meaning of "keeper of the power"; however, this is also considered a very weak assumption.
Hyksos - Wikipedia
The Hyksos (/ˈhɪksɒs/; Egyptian ḥqꜣ(w)-ḫꜣswt, Egyptological pronunciation: heqa khasut, "ruler(s) of foreign lands"
were a people of diverse origins, possibly from Western Asia,[3] who settled in the eastern Nile Delta some time before 1650 BC. The arrival of the Hyksos led to the end of the Thirteenth Dynasty and initiated the Second Intermediate Period of Egypt.[4] In the context of Ancient Egypt, the term "Asiatic" refers to people native to areas east of Egypt.Immigration by Canaanite populations preceded the Hyksos. Canaanites first appeared in Egypt at the end of the 12th Dynasty c. 1800 BC or c. 1720 BC and established an independent realm in the eastern Nile Delta.[5] The Canaanite rulers of the Delta regrouped and founded the Fourteenth Dynasty, which coexisted with the Egyptian Thirteenth Dynasty and was based in Itjtawy.[citation needed] The power of the 13th and 14th Dynasties progressively waned, perhaps due to famine and plague.[5][6]
In about 1650 BC, the Hyksos invaded the territory of both dynasties and established the Fifteenth Dynasty. The collapse of the Thirteenth Dynasty caused a power vacuum in the south, which may have led to the rise of the Sixteenth Dynasty, based in Thebes, and possibly of a local Abydos Dynasty.[5] The Hyksos eventually conquered both, albeit for only a short time in the case of Thebes. From then on, the 17th Dynasty took control of Thebes and reigned for some time in peaceful coexistence with the Hyksos kings, perhaps as their vassals. Eventually, Seqenenre Tao, Kamose and Ahmose waged war against the Hyksos and expelled Khamudi, their last king, from Egypt c. 1550 BC.[5]
The Hyksos practised horse burials, and their chief deity, their native storm god, Hadad, they associated with the Egyptian storm and desert god, Set.[3][7] The Hyksos were a mixed people of mainly Semitic-speaking origin.[3][8] The Hyksos are generally held to have contained Hurrian and Indo-European elements, particularly among the leadership.[9][10] This has however been vigorously opposed in some quarters, often for political reasons.[11][12]
The Hyksos brought several technical innovations to Egypt, as well as cultural imports such as new musical instruments and foreign loanwords.[13] The changes introduced include new techniques of bronze-working and pottery, new breeds of animals, and new crops.[13] In warfare, they introduced the horse and chariot,[14] the composite bow, improved battle axes, and advanced fortification techniques.[13] These cultural advances received from the Hyksos became a decisive factor in Egypt's later success in building an empire in the Middle East during the New Kingdom....
Jericho - Wikipedia
During the Middle Bronze Age, Jericho was a small prominent city of the Canaan region, reaching its greatest Bronze Age extent in the period from 1700 to 1550 BCE. It seems to have reflected the greater urbanization in the area at that time, and has been linked to the rise of the Maryannu, a class of chariot-using aristocrats linked to the rise of the Mitannite state to the north. Kathleen Kenyon reported "the Middle Bronze Age is perhaps the most prosperous in the whole history of Kna'an. ... The defenses ... belong to a fairly advanced date in that period" and there was "a massive stone revetment ... part of a complex system" of defenses.[36] Bronze Age Jericho fell in the 16th century at the end of the Middle Bronze Age, the calibrated carbon remains from its City-IV destruction layer dating to 1617–1530 BCE. Notably this carbon dating c. 1573 BCE confirmed the accuracy of the stratigraphical dating c. 1550 by Kenyon
Dating the ancient Minoan eruption of Thera using tree rings
Archeologists have estimated the eruption as occurring sometime between 1570 and 1500 BC by using human artifacts such as written records from Egypt and pottery retrieved from digs. Other researchers estimated the date of the eruption to about 1600 BC using measurements of radiocarbon, sometimes called carbon-14, from bits of trees, grains and legumes found just below the layer of volcanic ash.
By using radiocarbon measurements from the annual rings of trees that lived at the time of the eruption, the UA-led team dates the eruption to someplace between 1600 and 1525, a time period which overlaps with the 1570-1500 date range from the archeological evidence.
Senakhtenre Ahmose - Wikipedia
The situation completely changed in March 2012 when French egyptologist Sébastien Biston-Moulin of the CFEETK (Centre Franco-Égyptien d'Étude des Temples de Karnak) published hieroglyphic inscriptions discovered on a large 17th dynasty limestone doorjamb built for a granary of a temple of Amun at Karnak. The doorjamb bears Senakhtenre's full royal name and reveals his nomen to have been Ahmose. This is the same name as that of his grandson, Nebpehtyre Ahmose I, who founded the 18th dynasty by defeating the Hyksos and ousting them from Egypt.
The Mysterious Hyksos
In 1828, the Leiden Museum in Holland acquired a papyrus which came from Memphis. It was written by a scribe called Ipuwer and gives a graphic description of conditions in Egypt at the time of his writing.
Archaeologists are not agreed about the exact time the document was originally written. It seems to have been made in the 19th Dynasty, but it could be a copy of a document made originally about the end of the 12th Dynasty. A reading of it sounds very much like an echo of the biblical account.
Nay, but the heart is violent. Plague stalks through the land and blood is everywhere. . . . Nay, but the river is blood. Does a man drink from it? As a human he rejects it. He thirsts for water. . . . Nay, but gates, columns and walls are consumed with fire. … Nay but men are few. He that lays his brother in the ground is everywhere. . . . Nay but the son of the high-born man is no longer to be recognized. . . . The stranger people from outside are come into Egypt. . . . Nay, but corn has perished everywhere. People are stripped of clothing, perfume, and oil. Everyone says “there is no more.” The storehouse is bare. . . . It has come to this. The king has been taken away by poor men. — Ipuwer Papyrus, Leiden Museum5
Timeline:
Canaanite tribes migrate into Egypt: 1990 to 1800 BC
Hyksos take over the Caananite area east of the Nile Delta, then expand to all of lower Egypt. 1650 BC
Khyan reigns powerfully over Lower Egypt 1610?–1580 BC (15th Dynasty)
.....Yanassi disappears
Thera Volcanic eruption between 1600 and 1525 avg 1560...1575 best fit
Apepi reigns over Lower Egypt and is impoverished. 35-40 years, ca. 1575 BC - 1540 BC
Jericho falls in violence sometime in 1617 - 1530 BC 1573 BC
..........archeological evidence 1570-1500 avg 1535
The Merneptah Stele recording Israels defeat by Egypt 1213-1203 BC
JimBowie1958
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I asm not sure what you are driving at h ere. Of course JoeB doesn't accept Moses, but are you affirming, denying or swinging for the bleachers?
JimBowie1958
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In Biblical hermeneutics, there are far more options than 'Everything is literal' vrs 'everything is metaphore', right?
JGalt
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I guess you never heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls, then. The Esscene library contained 400 manuscripts, 100 of them being biblical texts covering the entire Hebrew Bible. Those were dated to have been written in 300BC.
Research!
Indeependent
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You haven’t been reading your Bible.
Pharoah dehumanized the Hebrews by giving them an impossible task...building on mud...or die.
Indeependent
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No sun until “day” 4.
JimBowie1958
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Oh, my translations I am familiar with say he gave Israel the task of building bricks without straw, not anything about building on mud.
That is an interesting take I am unfamiliar with, or don't remember with my senility.
Exodus chapter 5:
4 But the king of Egypt said, “Moses and Aaron, why are you taking the people away from their labor? Get back to your work!”
5 Then Pharaoh said, “Look, the people of the land are now numerous, and you are stopping them from working.”
6 That same day Pharaoh gave this order to the slave drivers and overseers in charge of the people:
7 “You are no longer to supply the people with straw for making bricks; let them go and gather their own straw.
8 But require them to make the same number of bricks as before; don’t reduce the quota. They are lazy; that is why they are crying out, ‘Let us go and sacrifice to our God.’
9 Make the work harder for the people so that they keep working and pay no attention to lies.”
10 Then the slave drivers and the overseers went out and said to the people, “This is what Pharaoh says: ‘I will not give you any more straw.
11 Go and get your own straw wherever you can find it, but your work will not be reduced at all.’”
12 So the people scattered all over Egypt to gather stubble to use for straw.
13 The slave drivers kept pressing them, saying, “Complete the work required of you for each day, just as when you had straw.” 14 And Pharaoh’s slave drivers beat the Israelite overseers they had appointed, demanding, “Why haven’t you met your quota of bricks yesterday or today, as before?”
15 Then the Israelite overseers went and appealed to Pharaoh: “Why have you treated your servants this way?
16 Your servants are given no straw, yet we are told, ‘Make bricks!’ Your servants are being beaten, but the fault is with your own people.”
17 Pharaoh said, “Lazy, that’s what you are—lazy! That is why you keep saying, ‘Let us go and sacrifice to the Lord.’
18 Now get to work. You will not be given any straw, yet you must produce your full quota of bricks.”
19 The Israelite overseers realized they were in trouble when they were told, “You are not to reduce the number of bricks required of you for each day.”
20 When they left Pharaoh, they found Moses and Aaron waiting to meet them,
21 and they said, “May the Lord look on you and judge you! You have made us obnoxious to Pharaoh and his officials and have put a sword in their hand to kill us.”
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JimBowie1958
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That does not mean that light was not getting through the cloud cover, there was simply no visible sun from Earths surface.
I really think the Genesis chapter 1 story is a chronicle of oral history passed down from the Toba catastrophe.
I think that it is during this time that humanity made a moral leap in communication related to trust and honesty that allowed the development of more complex grammatical structure to language, and thus able to transfer more information and more complex thought.
There have been experiments in teaching monkeys how to sign, and observing them to see if they develop more complex language. Essentially they would sign single words, or modified words, but not anything more complex like a sentence. And this was because the monkeys would not trust each other. So if a monkey signed 'food next room' the target monkey would simply ignore the assertion unless it could directly see the food and then it would act on that info.
And so language never became a survival tool for the apes and it looks very likely that early modern man may have had similar limitations until the Toba catastrophe, and in order to survive, many think mankind learned to trust in the language and communication of other humans, based on the assumption of honesty and accuracy.
And so the first humans that could make moral choices and understand complex moral thought were these early survivors of Toba, and they were the Adam and Eve of Genesis. The dangerous snakes that would stalk trees for food were Satan tempting them to learn language to avoid attack.
Just a theory.
How do we know if they could speak?
When did language evolve?
Because language can not ‘fossilise’, scientists have to rely on purely circumstantial evidence when trying to determine the language and speech capabilities of our ancient ancestors. This has led to continued debates as to when language evolved. There are two main views – some scientists believe language appeared suddenly, and is limited to our own species. Others claim language evolved slowly over the last 2 million years and was not restricted to our own species.
Those who support a sudden development of language focus on archaeological evidence of behaviour that could be connected to language use. Much of this evidence appears only in the last 40,000 years and includes the manufacture of highly complex tools, the production of symbolic art and the existence of widespread trade systems.
By contrast, those who claim language evolved slowly base their argument on skeletal remains and the evidence of structures related to speech production. Certain physical features associated with spoken language, such as the position of the vocal tract, the structure of the brain and the size of the spinal cord, gradually evolved into the modern human form. This evidence is seen to indicate an increasing ability for language and speech over time....
Neanderthals - Homo neanderthalensis
Date: 300,000 – 28,000 years ago
Where lived: Europe and the Middle East
Language ability: relatively advanced language abilities, but evidence suggests that they may have had a limited vocal range compared to modern humans. If this were the case, then their ability to produce complex sounds and sentences would be affected.
There has been considerable debate about whether Neanderthals had the capability for fully modern speech. The Neanderthals (Homo neanderthalensis) became extinct about 28,000 years ago and it is often claimed that a reduced language ability compared with modern humans may have been a factor in their extinction.
Evidence for and against their language ability is based on analyses of their skeletal remains and the artefacts that they left behind.
Neanderthal art
Neanderthals left little in the way of symbolic art, an indication that their thought processes, and hence language ability, were unlike that of their modern human contemporaries. Many scientists reached a similar conclusion after comparing Neanderthal vocal tracts to those of modern humans.
Reconstructing sounds from vocal tracts
It is possible to work out how Neanderthals may have spoken by reconstructing their vocal tracts and then comparing them with those of modern apes and modern humans.
The vocal tract’s structure is revealed in the base of the skull. Modern apes, such as chimpanzees, have a flat skull base and a high larynx whereas modern humans have an arched skull base and a low larynx. Our low larynx allows room for an extended pharynx and this structure enables us to produce the wide range of sounds we use in speech. Neanderthal skull bases appear to be less arched than those of modern humans but more arched than those of modern apes. This suggests that the Neanderthals would have been capable of some speech but probably not the complete range of sounds that modern humans produce.
The Neanderthal hyoid bone
The hyoid bone is a small, U-shaped bone that attaches to the larynx at the top of the vocal tract. Fossilised hyoid bones are very rarely found, so this Neanderthal hyoid from Kebara, Israel, was a fascinating discovery. Its similarity to those of modern humans was seen as evidence by some scientists that Neanderthals possessed a modern vocal tract and were therefore capable of fully modern speech. However, recent studies show that hyoid shape is not linked to the structure of the vocal tract. Pig hyoids, for example, are almost identical to those of modern humans.
A language gene?
Researchers studying Neanderthal genes discovered that they shared the same version of a gene FOXP2 with modern humans. FOXP2 is the only gene known so far that plays a key role in language. When mutated, it primarily affects language without affecting other abilities. This gene appears in different forms in other vertebrates where it performs a slightly different function. This suggests the gene mutated not long before the split between the Neanderthals and modern human lines. However, there are plenty of genes involved in language so it takes more than the FOXP2 gene to prove a language ability.
Cro-Magnons - Homo sapiens
Date: 40,000 – 10,000 years ago
Where lived: Europe
Language ability: The Cro-Magnons were members of our own species, Homo sapiens. There is little reason to doubt that these people had the ability to talk and use symbolic language.
Although Cro-Magnon people have left no evidence of written language, they produced symbolic art, performed long distance trade, held ritual burial ceremonies and planned and designed a technologically advanced tool kit.
Art and symbolism
Art is the earliest unambiguous evidence of symbolic behaviour and, like language, requires a shared system of meanings in order to communicate its message. Evidence of art prior to 40,000 years ago is limited and solid evidence of symbolism only occurs after this time.
Complex tools
The earliest tools that appear in the archaeological record 2.6 million years ago are repetitive and could have been learnt through imitating the actions of others rather than by spoken language. By comparison the Cro-Magnon tool kit was complex, varied and innovative. This reflects intentional design and planning which are the basis of complex mental processes and can be associated with language.
Burials and ritual behaviour
Most of the human remains are from deliberate burials and are accompanied with grave goods and covered with ochre. This is evidence for ritual behaviour and interaction with the dead, suggesting some kind of belief in an afterlife. The mental processes associated with such abstract concepts as spiritualism and religion can be associated with the capability for modern language.
The 90,000 year-old double burial from Jebel Qafzeh, Israel is one of the earliest that shows careful placement of the deceased. Burials of modern humans become increasingly complex over time, and Cro-Magnon burials usually include grave goods and other evidence of ritual activity. This pattern of behaviour is also seen at burial sites of other modern human cultures throughout the world.
Cro-Magnon skeletons
The physical features associated with spoken language, such as the vocal tract, the structure of the brain and the size of the spinal cord, are identical between Cro-Magnon people and humans living today. This means that Cro-Magnon people would have been capable of producing the same sounds we use in speech.
Because language can not ‘fossilise’, scientists have to rely on purely circumstantial evidence when trying to determine the language and speech capabilities of our ancient ancestors. This has led to continued debates as to when language evolved. There are two main views – some scientists believe language appeared suddenly, and is limited to our own species. Others claim language evolved slowly over the last 2 million years and was not restricted to our own species.
Those who support a sudden development of language focus on archaeological evidence of behaviour that could be connected to language use. Much of this evidence appears only in the last 40,000 years and includes the manufacture of highly complex tools, the production of symbolic art and the existence of widespread trade systems.
By contrast, those who claim language evolved slowly base their argument on skeletal remains and the evidence of structures related to speech production. Certain physical features associated with spoken language, such as the position of the vocal tract, the structure of the brain and the size of the spinal cord, gradually evolved into the modern human form. This evidence is seen to indicate an increasing ability for language and speech over time....
Neanderthals - Homo neanderthalensis
Date: 300,000 – 28,000 years ago
Where lived: Europe and the Middle East
Language ability: relatively advanced language abilities, but evidence suggests that they may have had a limited vocal range compared to modern humans. If this were the case, then their ability to produce complex sounds and sentences would be affected.
There has been considerable debate about whether Neanderthals had the capability for fully modern speech. The Neanderthals (Homo neanderthalensis) became extinct about 28,000 years ago and it is often claimed that a reduced language ability compared with modern humans may have been a factor in their extinction.
Evidence for and against their language ability is based on analyses of their skeletal remains and the artefacts that they left behind.
Neanderthal art
Neanderthals left little in the way of symbolic art, an indication that their thought processes, and hence language ability, were unlike that of their modern human contemporaries. Many scientists reached a similar conclusion after comparing Neanderthal vocal tracts to those of modern humans.
Reconstructing sounds from vocal tracts
It is possible to work out how Neanderthals may have spoken by reconstructing their vocal tracts and then comparing them with those of modern apes and modern humans.
The vocal tract’s structure is revealed in the base of the skull. Modern apes, such as chimpanzees, have a flat skull base and a high larynx whereas modern humans have an arched skull base and a low larynx. Our low larynx allows room for an extended pharynx and this structure enables us to produce the wide range of sounds we use in speech. Neanderthal skull bases appear to be less arched than those of modern humans but more arched than those of modern apes. This suggests that the Neanderthals would have been capable of some speech but probably not the complete range of sounds that modern humans produce.
The Neanderthal hyoid bone
The hyoid bone is a small, U-shaped bone that attaches to the larynx at the top of the vocal tract. Fossilised hyoid bones are very rarely found, so this Neanderthal hyoid from Kebara, Israel, was a fascinating discovery. Its similarity to those of modern humans was seen as evidence by some scientists that Neanderthals possessed a modern vocal tract and were therefore capable of fully modern speech. However, recent studies show that hyoid shape is not linked to the structure of the vocal tract. Pig hyoids, for example, are almost identical to those of modern humans.
A language gene?
Researchers studying Neanderthal genes discovered that they shared the same version of a gene FOXP2 with modern humans. FOXP2 is the only gene known so far that plays a key role in language. When mutated, it primarily affects language without affecting other abilities. This gene appears in different forms in other vertebrates where it performs a slightly different function. This suggests the gene mutated not long before the split between the Neanderthals and modern human lines. However, there are plenty of genes involved in language so it takes more than the FOXP2 gene to prove a language ability.
Cro-Magnons - Homo sapiens
Date: 40,000 – 10,000 years ago
Where lived: Europe
Language ability: The Cro-Magnons were members of our own species, Homo sapiens. There is little reason to doubt that these people had the ability to talk and use symbolic language.
Although Cro-Magnon people have left no evidence of written language, they produced symbolic art, performed long distance trade, held ritual burial ceremonies and planned and designed a technologically advanced tool kit.
Art and symbolism
Art is the earliest unambiguous evidence of symbolic behaviour and, like language, requires a shared system of meanings in order to communicate its message. Evidence of art prior to 40,000 years ago is limited and solid evidence of symbolism only occurs after this time.
Complex tools
The earliest tools that appear in the archaeological record 2.6 million years ago are repetitive and could have been learnt through imitating the actions of others rather than by spoken language. By comparison the Cro-Magnon tool kit was complex, varied and innovative. This reflects intentional design and planning which are the basis of complex mental processes and can be associated with language.
Burials and ritual behaviour
Most of the human remains are from deliberate burials and are accompanied with grave goods and covered with ochre. This is evidence for ritual behaviour and interaction with the dead, suggesting some kind of belief in an afterlife. The mental processes associated with such abstract concepts as spiritualism and religion can be associated with the capability for modern language.
The 90,000 year-old double burial from Jebel Qafzeh, Israel is one of the earliest that shows careful placement of the deceased. Burials of modern humans become increasingly complex over time, and Cro-Magnon burials usually include grave goods and other evidence of ritual activity. This pattern of behaviour is also seen at burial sites of other modern human cultures throughout the world.
Cro-Magnon skeletons
The physical features associated with spoken language, such as the vocal tract, the structure of the brain and the size of the spinal cord, are identical between Cro-Magnon people and humans living today. This means that Cro-Magnon people would have been capable of producing the same sounds we use in speech.
Last edited:
JimBowie1958
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- Sep 25, 2011
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The ten plagues of Egypt | The Biomedical Scientist Magazine of the IBMS
As children, many of us will have read how the Hebrew people living in Egypt were suffering under the cruel rule of the Pharaoh. Moses asked the Pharaoh to let them return to their homelands in Canaan, but he refused. As a consequence, 10 plagues were inflicted on the Egyptians in a divine demonstration of power and displeasure designed to persuade the Pharaoh to reverse his decision. But were the plagues historical events or, as some historians have suggested, simply passed-down accounts of several natural disasters? Some scholars concede that from an historical standpoint, the first nine plagues resemble natural events and while some are disconnected, others appear to be part of a chain reaction with set patterns and a rapid succession. The Egyptians were renowned for recording every event, whether temporal or religious in nature, but there are few references to plagues in ancient Egyptian literature. What if the plagues, however, involved villages and the countryside around Goshen, these might not have been referred to the royal court for insertion in official chronicles.
When did the plagues occur and who was the tyrannical Pharaoh? The Greek historian Herodotus put the dates around 1570-1550 BC when Egypt was under the rule of the Hyksos (an Asiatic tribe), but there was no Pharaoh, until Ahmose I (1550-1525 BC) raised rebellion and overthrew the invaders. During this time apocalyptic rainstorms, devastated much of Egypt, and were described on the Tempest Stele of Ahmose I, these have been attributed to short-term climatic changes caused by the Thera volcanic eruption on the island of Santorini around 1630 BC (although it has also been suggested that the storm reference is merely a metaphor for the chaos caused during the war). Trevisanato (in his 2005 book The Plagues of Egypt: Archaeology, History, and Science Look at the Bible), suggested this eruption was also the trigger event for the plagues. There are indications that the environmental effects of this eruption were felt around the globe – some scholars have also linked this eruption to the legend of Atlantis. Trevisanato believes that volcanic ash tainted the Nile causing it to become acidic and sediments found at the bottom of lakes along the Nile Delta seem to suggest that there was deposit of volcanic ash sometime during the Middle Bronze Age, which would be in line with the eruption on the Greek volcanic island. In a pre-industrial ancient Egypt, sulphates from a massive volcanic fall out would provide the simplest and most plausible scientific explanation for this contamination. A red, acidic Nile would have killed the fish, kept people from drinking from the river and, according to contemporary records, caused burns which later became infected with ‘larvae’.
However, Alfred Edersheim proposed in his Old Testament Bible History that Thutmose II (1509-1479 BC) may have been the protagonist. In 1886 when the mummy of Thutmose II was unwrapped by Gaston Maspero there were scars from some type of infection which were still visible even after being embalmed. Maspero described the mummy as being “scabrous in patches, and covered with scars”. Lesions covered the back, waist, arms and legs of the body and there was a mixture of papules, scabs and scars. Had Thutmose II died of a disease spreading through the region at that time? Evidence exists that the Queen’s nanny, Sitre In, suffered from a similar condition. The details are very similar to descriptions of the 6th plague where “boils burst forth upon man and beast throughout the land of Egypt!” (Exodus 9.9).
A red river
Another candidate for the Pharaoh is Ramesses II (1303 - 1213 BC), made popular by the Hollywood epic The Ten Commandments. At this time the climate of the capital city Pi-Ramesses was wet and tropical, but towards the end of his reign the climate became dry and more desert-like. This change has been confirmed by a study of the stalagmites in local Egyptian caves, which have provided a record of the weather patterns of the time. It is possible that the Nile turned from a swiftly flowing river into a sluggish, muddy watercourse due to the rising temperatures and arid conditions. This was the basis of the 1950s naturalistic theory by Greta Hort, who proposed that certain algae in particular, Haematococcus pluvialis and Euglena sanguinea, were able to flourish in these conditions. The red colour is due to the presence of astaxanthin and under the right conditions the cells can be populous enough to turn water red. Euglena sanguinea is also known to produce the potent icthyotoxin euglenophycin. The idea of an algal bloom is also proposed by Dr Stephan Pflugmacher, who believes that when the Nile changed it allowed the toxic algae Planktothrix rubescens to thrive in the warm slow moving water. When the algae died it turned the water red causing a phenomenon called “Burgundy blood”.
When did the plagues occur and who was the tyrannical Pharaoh? The Greek historian Herodotus put the dates around 1570-1550 BC when Egypt was under the rule of the Hyksos (an Asiatic tribe), but there was no Pharaoh, until Ahmose I (1550-1525 BC) raised rebellion and overthrew the invaders. During this time apocalyptic rainstorms, devastated much of Egypt, and were described on the Tempest Stele of Ahmose I, these have been attributed to short-term climatic changes caused by the Thera volcanic eruption on the island of Santorini around 1630 BC (although it has also been suggested that the storm reference is merely a metaphor for the chaos caused during the war). Trevisanato (in his 2005 book The Plagues of Egypt: Archaeology, History, and Science Look at the Bible), suggested this eruption was also the trigger event for the plagues. There are indications that the environmental effects of this eruption were felt around the globe – some scholars have also linked this eruption to the legend of Atlantis. Trevisanato believes that volcanic ash tainted the Nile causing it to become acidic and sediments found at the bottom of lakes along the Nile Delta seem to suggest that there was deposit of volcanic ash sometime during the Middle Bronze Age, which would be in line with the eruption on the Greek volcanic island. In a pre-industrial ancient Egypt, sulphates from a massive volcanic fall out would provide the simplest and most plausible scientific explanation for this contamination. A red, acidic Nile would have killed the fish, kept people from drinking from the river and, according to contemporary records, caused burns which later became infected with ‘larvae’.
However, Alfred Edersheim proposed in his Old Testament Bible History that Thutmose II (1509-1479 BC) may have been the protagonist. In 1886 when the mummy of Thutmose II was unwrapped by Gaston Maspero there were scars from some type of infection which were still visible even after being embalmed. Maspero described the mummy as being “scabrous in patches, and covered with scars”. Lesions covered the back, waist, arms and legs of the body and there was a mixture of papules, scabs and scars. Had Thutmose II died of a disease spreading through the region at that time? Evidence exists that the Queen’s nanny, Sitre In, suffered from a similar condition. The details are very similar to descriptions of the 6th plague where “boils burst forth upon man and beast throughout the land of Egypt!” (Exodus 9.9).
A red river
Another candidate for the Pharaoh is Ramesses II (1303 - 1213 BC), made popular by the Hollywood epic The Ten Commandments. At this time the climate of the capital city Pi-Ramesses was wet and tropical, but towards the end of his reign the climate became dry and more desert-like. This change has been confirmed by a study of the stalagmites in local Egyptian caves, which have provided a record of the weather patterns of the time. It is possible that the Nile turned from a swiftly flowing river into a sluggish, muddy watercourse due to the rising temperatures and arid conditions. This was the basis of the 1950s naturalistic theory by Greta Hort, who proposed that certain algae in particular, Haematococcus pluvialis and Euglena sanguinea, were able to flourish in these conditions. The red colour is due to the presence of astaxanthin and under the right conditions the cells can be populous enough to turn water red. Euglena sanguinea is also known to produce the potent icthyotoxin euglenophycin. The idea of an algal bloom is also proposed by Dr Stephan Pflugmacher, who believes that when the Nile changed it allowed the toxic algae Planktothrix rubescens to thrive in the warm slow moving water. When the algae died it turned the water red causing a phenomenon called “Burgundy blood”.
JimBowie1958
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- Sep 25, 2011
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- #34
An interesting video on Thera being the likely source of the Ten Plagues.
JimBowie1958
Old Fogey
- Sep 25, 2011
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- #35
Behavioral modernity - Wikipedia
Behavioral modernity is a suite of behavioral and cognitive traits that distinguishes current Homo sapiens from other anatomically modern humans, hominins, and primates.[1] Although often debated, most scholars agree that modern human behavior can be characterized by abstract thinking, planning depth, symbolic behavior (e.g., art, ornamentation), music and dance, exploitation of large game, and blade technology, among others.[2][3] Underlying these behaviors and technological innovations are cognitive and cultural foundations that have been documented experimentally and ethnographically. Some of these human universal patterns are cumulative cultural adaptation, social norms, language, and extensive help and cooperation beyond close kin.[4][5] It has been argued that the development of these modern behavioral traits, in combination with the climatic conditions of the Last Glacial Maximum causing population bottlenecks, contributed to the evolutionary success of Homo sapiens worldwide relative to Neanderthals, Denisovans, and other archaic humans.[3][6]
Arising from differences in the archaeological record, a debate continues as to whether anatomically modern humans were behaviorally modern as well. There are many theories on the evolution of behavioral modernity. These generally fall into two camps: gradualist and cognitive approaches. The Later Upper Paleolithic Model refers to the theory that modern human behavior arose through cognitive, genetic changes abruptly around 40,000–50,000 years ago.....
Toba catastrophe theory - Wikipedia
Jump to search
Toba catastrophe theory
Artist's impression of the eruption from about 42 kilometres (26 mi) above Northern Sumatra
Volcano Toba supervolcano
Date 74,100–75,900 years ago
Location Sumatra, Indonesia
2.6845°N 98.8756°ECoordinates:
2.6845°N 98.8756°E
VEI 8
Impact Second-most recent supereruption; impact disputed
Lake Toba is the resulting crater lake.
The Toba supereruption was a supervolcanic eruption that occurred about 75,000 years ago at the site of present-day Lake Toba in Sumatra, Indonesia. It is one of the Earth's largest known eruptions. The Toba catastrophe theory holds that this event caused a global volcanic winter of six to ten years and possibly a 1,000-year-long cooling episode.
In 1993, science journalist Ann Gibbons posited that a population bottleneck occurred in human evolution about 70,000 years ago, and she suggested that this was caused by the eruption. Geologist Michael R. Rampino of New York University and volcanologist Stephen Self of the University of Hawaii at Manoa support her suggestion. In 1998, the bottleneck theory was further developed by anthropologist Stanley H. Ambrose of the University of Illinois at Urbana–Champaign. Both the link and global winter theories are highly controversial.[1] The Toba event is the most closely studied supereruption.[2][3]
Behavioral modernity is a suite of behavioral and cognitive traits that distinguishes current Homo sapiens from other anatomically modern humans, hominins, and primates.[1] Although often debated, most scholars agree that modern human behavior can be characterized by abstract thinking, planning depth, symbolic behavior (e.g., art, ornamentation), music and dance, exploitation of large game, and blade technology, among others.[2][3] Underlying these behaviors and technological innovations are cognitive and cultural foundations that have been documented experimentally and ethnographically. Some of these human universal patterns are cumulative cultural adaptation, social norms, language, and extensive help and cooperation beyond close kin.[4][5] It has been argued that the development of these modern behavioral traits, in combination with the climatic conditions of the Last Glacial Maximum causing population bottlenecks, contributed to the evolutionary success of Homo sapiens worldwide relative to Neanderthals, Denisovans, and other archaic humans.[3][6]
Arising from differences in the archaeological record, a debate continues as to whether anatomically modern humans were behaviorally modern as well. There are many theories on the evolution of behavioral modernity. These generally fall into two camps: gradualist and cognitive approaches. The Later Upper Paleolithic Model refers to the theory that modern human behavior arose through cognitive, genetic changes abruptly around 40,000–50,000 years ago.....
Toba catastrophe theory - Wikipedia
Jump to search
Toba catastrophe theory
Artist's impression of the eruption from about 42 kilometres (26 mi) above Northern Sumatra
Volcano Toba supervolcano
Date 74,100–75,900 years ago
Location Sumatra, Indonesia
VEI 8
Impact Second-most recent supereruption; impact disputed
Lake Toba is the resulting crater lake.
The Toba supereruption was a supervolcanic eruption that occurred about 75,000 years ago at the site of present-day Lake Toba in Sumatra, Indonesia. It is one of the Earth's largest known eruptions. The Toba catastrophe theory holds that this event caused a global volcanic winter of six to ten years and possibly a 1,000-year-long cooling episode.
In 1993, science journalist Ann Gibbons posited that a population bottleneck occurred in human evolution about 70,000 years ago, and she suggested that this was caused by the eruption. Geologist Michael R. Rampino of New York University and volcanologist Stephen Self of the University of Hawaii at Manoa support her suggestion. In 1998, the bottleneck theory was further developed by anthropologist Stanley H. Ambrose of the University of Illinois at Urbana–Champaign. Both the link and global winter theories are highly controversial.[1] The Toba event is the most closely studied supereruption.[2][3]
- Banned
- #36
Some scholars believe the mountain of Moses stone tablet fame has been found in southwest Saudi Arabia, and was not in the Sinai at all. Still looking at that claim, personally.
I'm not a believer, but I know all of what became the 'New Testament was written in the time period it ascribes itself, but I have some issues with the post-exilic 'books' of the OT, and hardly any with the 'pre-exilic' writings, aka 'Palestinian Judaism'.
The claims that Judaism and Christianity were 'rip offs of earlier pagan stuff' is of course utter nonsense, just as fake as the claims that 'Gnosticism' was the original Christianity, because Walther Bauer and Elaine Pagels said so, based solely on a few ratty scrolls they found in Egypt.
Some of the people in the OT are composites, some are real persons who existed; Moses was likely a real person, 'Daniel' probably wasn't real, but a composite, for instance. In any case, it is the writings that are important, since all of them are dead now and thus abstractions to anybody living now and aren't here to hold classes on what they meant.
I'm not a believer, but I know all of what became the 'New Testament was written in the time period it ascribes itself, but I have some issues with the post-exilic 'books' of the OT, and hardly any with the 'pre-exilic' writings, aka 'Palestinian Judaism'.
The claims that Judaism and Christianity were 'rip offs of earlier pagan stuff' is of course utter nonsense, just as fake as the claims that 'Gnosticism' was the original Christianity, because Walther Bauer and Elaine Pagels said so, based solely on a few ratty scrolls they found in Egypt.
Some of the people in the OT are composites, some are real persons who existed; Moses was likely a real person, 'Daniel' probably wasn't real, but a composite, for instance. In any case, it is the writings that are important, since all of them are dead now and thus abstractions to anybody living now and aren't here to hold classes on what they meant.
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Muhammed
Diamond Member
Johnny Appleseed was definitely a real person.
Indeependent
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- Nov 19, 2013
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Transitioning from primordial light to a star is a downgrade.
Earth and plant life do not have the ability to transgress God’s will and thus were capable of being created via the higher spiritual power of primordial light.
God does not need condensed physical entities to carry out his will...angels are spiritual entities.
Penelope
Diamond Member
- Jul 15, 2014
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Not according to EZE 16.
---------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
In the scripture it was anyone who was born to Jacob. Who knows!! You were all arabs with different dialects.
------------------------------------------
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Penelope
Diamond Member
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Dead Sea Scrolls - Wikipedia
light reading. discovered around the same time Israel declared theirself a state.
What do they say??
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