Mormons?

[Flash]

I would agree in the sense that we believe we do have an active part in our salvation.

I think the difference is that Protestants and Catholics believe that Grace is unconditional when teamed with Faith.

If you have Faith you will always strive to do good deeds but you will fail at it. Not to worry. Jesus took that burden away from us.

God bless you for your Faith.

Can you explain what you mean by unconditional Grace.

We believe his Grace is a available to everyone who will accept it. He is no respecter of persons.

However, you do have to accept it in some way.

Our concept of good deeds, done with true intent, is that they are amplified by the Atonement in a way that changes our very nature.

The deeds themselves are of no worth. But the effect they have on us is what is key. We grow closer to the Lord and better understand his desires for his children.

We simply think that is a lifelong (and beyond) process.

I expect you believe it all happens at once when you accept Christ.

Salvation is a GIFT. It is received by faith. Service is out of love and gratitude. It's relationship. The thief on the cross didn't do anything, but he was saved by faith.

If you don't accept unconditional Grace then you go beating yourself up thinking you could have done better.

Or you get shame by others for not doing what they think is better.

I think our LDS friends fall in that category. So many requirements, so much measurement, so much of everything except the simple acknowledgement that Christ died for our sins.

Scriptures are very clear that salvation is a GIFT. Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are in the cult category because they can't accept that salvation is a GIFT received by FAITH, not works. Religion doesn't save anyone. Only Jesus.

That is why I say they are a deeds based religion that flys in the face of Christianity.

They are not Christians.

 

[onefour1]

Faith includes good works. Good works includes keeping the commandments of God.

Matthew 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 14:15
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

James 2:14-26
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[BS Filter]

Faith includes good works. Good works includes keeping the commandments of God.

Matthew 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 14:15
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

James 2:14-26
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Yes, good works are the RESULT of true faith. This Scripture in James is consistently used by cults to support their doctrine of earning salvation through good deeds.

Why "Faith without Works Is Dead" - James 2:26 Meaning

Discover the meaning of "faith without works is dead" from James 2:26. How should we understand this popular and controversial Bible passage?

www.christianity.com

 

[MadChemist]

John 10:31-36
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Why would Jesus call us gods if there is only one God?

Another typical Mormon doctrine. Notice the small case "g". Where is that Scripture from?

That's from the same KJV Bible that you surely use. With the same use of capitals and lower case as what onefour1 quoted. I just googled to verify that it is not just our edition, but all editions of the KJV that make that use of upper and lower cases, and even at least one or two other non-KJV versions.

What is it that you are trying to dispute, here? It seems that any disagreement on your part is with the Bible itself, or at least with the KJV.

Mormonism doesn't rightly divide the Word. Read this.

Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34: Ye are Gods – Mormonism Research Ministry

www.mrm.org

The breaking of the word of God by anti-mormons, which you often quote, hold no weight with the faithful. Jesus said:

John 10:34-35
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

In other words, it means what it means and it is in this context in which Jesus used it to mean "gods".

So you believe that Scripture is saying that YOU can become God. Is that correct?

The scripture is saying exactly what it is saying, "I said ye are gods". In this context, Jesus is telling us that we are gods. But what does he mean by this? We believe that we (those of us on this earth) are the literal offspring of God our Heavenly Father.

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

We believe that Gods beget gods. As his literal children, God refers to us as gods. Not that we rule over God's kingdom or that others on this earth should look to us as a god whom they should worship but that we are of the same species as God our Heavenly Father.

We believe that we, before coming to this earth, lived with God as spirits and are his literal offspring in spirit. This is why he is our Father in Heaven. There was a war in heaven before we all came to this earth where part of the children of God rebelled against God and were cast out of heaven into this earth. They became the devil and his angels. The rest of God's children sided with our Father and we were allowed to come to this earth and receive bodies of flesh and bones.

Revelation 12:7-11
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Consider this great scene in heaven where Michael and his angels fought against the devil and his angels. Who were Michael and angels? How does Michael and his angels overcome the devil and his angels? Verse 11 tells us. They overcome him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony. They also loved not their lives unto the death. Who is it that needs the blood of the Lamb to overcome Satan? Is it not we who are on the earth? It says that those who overcome love not their lives unto the death. Who, other than we mortals, need Jesus' blood to overcome the devil and who suffer death. Is it not we who were there with Michael as his angels in the premortal existence who fought against the dragon? Are we not now in need of the blood of the Lamb? These verses are evidence that we lived in the presence of God before coming to this earth and all who have received bodies on this earth were faithful and sided with God in the war of heaven. You were there! You are a literal child of our Father in heaven. You are a god. This why Jesus refers to the Father's children as gods.

Job 38:3-7
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Yes it is true that we do believe that among the very faithful of God's children that they can become like him in all respects.

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

It is the desire of God that we become like him. Would the Lord give us a commandment to become as perfect as our Father in heaven if it was not something that is possible?

John 17:20-23
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

1 John 3:2-3
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

We believe that the verses In Isaiah which refers to there being only one God and beside Him there is no God is in reference to this world and that on this earth we worship none other but Him. He is the true God of this world and there are no other Gods that apply to us on this earth whom we should worship. We shouldn't worship any of the children of God other than Jesus Christ whom the father has sent. The rest of us are gods in the sense that we are the children of God and are of the same species, but we are not to be considered as God (with a capital G). God is God and we are his and are to worship him and him alone. However, we do believe that we can become perfect just as our Father in Heaven is perfect. We believe that in the eternities if faithful, we too can become a father or mother of our own spirit children and have our own kingdoms which will add to the glory of our Father in Heaven. Just as in this world, we grow up and become parents of our own children, we believe this is an eternal pattern for the faithful in eternity. We believe we can grow up to become like our Father and Mother in heaven. If you become one with the Father, you will never oppose the will of the Father.

The Apostle Paul taught:

1 Corinthians 8:4-6
4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Here the Apostle Paul is speaking of eating things that are offered to idols and says that "Idols are nothing in the world and that there is none other God but one." Then Paul clarifies that there be gods many, and lords many but that to us there is but one God, the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. Here Paul clarifies that there are gods many and lords many, but for us here on earth there is but one God. Just as on earth there are father and mothers many but to each of us there is but one father and mother from whom we are born and belong to. For sure, on earth, there be those that are called gods and we know this because Jesus himself has called us gods. There will be some of us who go to heaven and thus we see that there are those also in heaven who are called gods. But we do not worship them but only the God to whom we belong, our Father in heaven.

When a believer acts according to GOD's will and behaves as GOD desires the believer to behave, then he becomes GOD's ambassador and in so doing becomes a god ---- because that one is accomplishing GOD's goals on GOD's behalf. Man is a created being. GOD was always and is forever. We have a beginning. As for there being many gods, that is so when ANYTHING becomes the focus of one's attention. Money becomes a god for one who wants more of it. Power becomes a god for one desiring to control and manipulate others. And a prophet becomes a god for those who embrace that individual's teachings at the expense of the TRUE Gospel of CHRIST. The Word clarifies the Word and exposes the falsehood of any other testament. One doesn't come to the FATHER by a burning in one's bosom. One comes to the FATHER through prayer and supplication in FAITH alone in the MESSIAH JESUS. The TRUE Word was never hid under a bushel. It sits high on a candle stand where it's light does the best work to illuminate the hearts of fallen men with GOD's salvation.

We believe that mankind's bodies were created originally from the dust of the earth and had their beginning at that time, however, we do not believe that the spirit of man had its beginning at that time but were the literal offspring of God the Father in the premortal world. There is alot of evidence of this in the Bible. A further belief of the church, however, is that before being born as spirit children of the Father, we existed eternally as intelligence which was never created or made but was as self-existent as God himself.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Abraham 3:18
18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

In the above verse, Abraham calls the intelligences spirits.

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Genesis 3:19
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

John 9:1-3
1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

The interesting thing about the above verse is that the disciples believed that the man could have sinned before being born. The Lord doesn't teach against this thought but simply gives them the true reason for the man's blindness.

Ephesians 1:4
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Here the saints at Ephesus are told they were chosen before the foundation of the world.

"In Him". Notice all the instances in the Epistles of "in Him, in Christ, etc. We are predestined IN CHRIST when we believe in Him. We are in Him. We are the body of Christ.

So you do believe in predestination ?

In Christ, yes. That's what Scripture says.

We were the only Christians that lived on my street. Everybody else LDS.

That's incorrect.

LDS/Mormons are Christians.

However, once they found out we were Lutheran and would not be attending their church they shut us off. We never had any bad words or anything, just politely declining to go to their church.

My wife and I didn't care because we had other friends. However, the Mormons also would not let their children play with our children. That really pissed me off. Our sons did not understand why the neighborhood kids wouldn't associate with them. Even the ones they went to school with. That was a crappy thing to do.

That sort of behavior is not consistent with our values.

I cannot speak for your neighbors, or know why they behaved as they did (assuming you're telling the truth), but it certainly is not the sort of behavior that the church encourages of us.

So if Mormons are Christians, then are all of the other Christians that believe in Jesus going to be with God in eternity?

We all have the same potential in terms of where we land in eternity.

Realizing that potential extends well beyond this life.

I believe the Scriptures, I am saved by faith in Jesus. I will pass into eternity when my body dies. The Scriptures don't say anything about "potential".

There are three parables in Matthew 25.

What do you think they discuss.

Do you believe that the five foolish virgins were predestined to be foolish virgins.

I don't know. I don't think predestination is the point. I believe the Scriptures that clearly say I am saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

Why did he deliver those three parables ?

What was he teaching ?

He was teaching about the Kingdom of Heaven. Stewardship. I'm sure you're gonna tell me it somehow refers to Mormonism.

You said the scriptures don't say anything about potential.

I am disagreeing.

If you don't want to discuss things, please be honest.

But to make the claims you have made so far seems a little dishonest if you call the Bible your "source of authority" and are unwilling to explain how it applies.

I am more than willing to discuss things. Disagreement is part of the conversation here. If you can't explain and defend your position, then move on. What's your source of authority?

My position is quite clear.

Matthew 25 and other scriptures most definitely talk about "potential". The five foolish virgins had the potential to be wise virgins. The parable of the sheep and the goats demonstrates we can choose to on the left or right hand of God through our choices to serve our fellowman.

If you don't agree, then please say so.

My source of authority is the preisthood of God given to his children on earth to administer his affairs. This includes those who are prophets who provide up to date correction for the saints as they wonder off the path.

Such was the case with Paul whose letters to various churches contained both praise and correction against errors.

We're discussing two different things. You believe that there is no assurance of salvation. I believe the Scriptures that state very clearly that Anyone who believes in Jesus is saved by faith. You're confused, not me.

Yet there are scriptures that state the opposite.

I am not confused.

Show me.

I just did.

Matthew 25 to start.

Nobody was predestined there.

Ok. So what is your point?

We'll just have to call this one a learning experience.

I don't see us making any progress here.

Exactly. You're trying to convince me Mormonism is real, and my faith is in Jesus and Scripture.

I think I stated early on that I don't believe we should try to convince anyone of anything.

I am asking for your perspective.

You seem bent on making statements about the church that are, in my estimation, both incorrect and uneducated.

However, it is clear you are on the defensive.

So I am, as you say, moving on.

 

[MadChemist]

What I perceive the difference in Christianity and Mormonism doctrine to be:

Christians believe in Faith and Grace.

My understanding is that the Mormons certainly accept the Faith but have a different view of Grace. A big difference.

The Morons are a much more deeds centered religion and that is not real Christianity. That flys in the face of the concept of Grace.

The Mormons that I have discussed this with have all denied it to some degree or another but I think that is a fact.

No offense to any Mormon but I do not consider them to be Christians. At least not my Protestant understanding of Christianity.

Before denying anything, you'd have to explain the nature of Faith and Grace as you see it.

I can only do the same and then we can compare notes.

Also, what do you mean by deeds centered ?

I'll put forth this paragraph from Dallin H. Oaks from a fantastic address given in 2001:

From such teachings we conclude that the Final Judgment is not just an evaluation of a sum total of good and evil acts—what we have done. It is an acknowledgment of the final effect of our acts and thoughts—what we have become. It is not enough for anyone just to go through the motions. The commandments, ordinances, and covenants of the gospel are not a list of deposits required to be made in some heavenly account. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a plan that shows us how to become what our Heavenly Father desires us to become.

I found this to elucidate something that had eluded my ability to put into words.

With respect to Grace, or the relationship between grace and deeds, the Book of Mormon teaches:

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

As a general rule, I would say that our modern day leaders constantly testify of the central importance of the Atonement (often called one of the three pillars of eternity) in our lives. Without the Atonement, doing for us what we can't do for ourselves......there would be no salvation.

I do not apologize for any differences. We are who we are and we teach what we teach:

From the same talk given by Oaks in 2001, we also are taught that we qualify for Eteranl Live through the process of conversion (change).

We are challenged to move through a process of conversion toward that status and condition called eternal life. This is achieved not just by doing what is right, but by doing it for the right reason—for the pure love of Christ.

That process of conversion is something we chose to engage in, but would not be possible without the Atonement.

Unless I misunderstood the point you were making you were making the case for deeds.

Christians do not believe that you must do X, Y and Z before being accepted into the Kingdom of Heaven. You just have Faith and accept the Grace of God.

That, by the way, should lead to doing good deeds but being humans with free will we will always fall short of doing the right thing. Thank God that He has given us His Grace and that Jesus took that burden from us. He has forgiven us for not being perfect.

I have had this discussion many times during the time I lived among the Mormons. I have come to the conclusion that Mormons are not on the same page with the concept of Grace as Protestants or Catholics. Not by a long shot.

I would agree in the sense that we believe we do have an active part in our salvation.

I don't run from what we teach and what I believe to be true.

But deeds alone don't do it.

Not, as you say, by a long shot.

Christ does for us what we can't do for ourselves. Gethsemane was the heavy lifting done on behalf of all of us. We have to accept that and recognize that without him, heaven would never be a reality. Of course, the mormon concept of heaven is somewhat different from the protestant concept...

However, he does expect us to do our part.

I would put forth the idea that his teachings demonstrate an expectation regarding our behaviour. This is a general theme of his.

The teachings in Romans are very much pointed towards the idea that the Law of Moses was not going to complete your quest for life with God.

The person to ask about the conditions for Grace is the Thief on the Cross. All he really had was Faith.

I think we have a different perspective on that situation.

 

[onefour1]

I doubt the thief on the cross had received the gospel up until that time. Jesus promised him that he would be with him in paradise that day. Paradise, in the church, is not the kingdom of heaven. It is the place in the world of spirits where the righteous spirits await the resurrection. I believe the humility of the man on the cross led him to receive the gospel in the world of spirits and was numbered among those who were in paradise.

 

[MadChemist]

I would agree in the sense that we believe we do have an active part in our salvation.

I think the difference is that Protestants and Catholics believe that Grace is unconditional when teamed with Faith.

If you have Faith you will always strive to do good deeds but you will fail at it. Not to worry. Jesus took that burden away from us.

God bless you for your Faith.

Can you explain what you mean by unconditional Grace.

We believe his Grace is a available to everyone who will accept it. He is no respecter of persons.

However, you do have to accept it in some way.

Our concept of good deeds, done with true intent, is that they are amplified by the Atonement in a way that changes our very nature.

The deeds themselves are of no worth. But the effect they have on us is what is key. We grow closer to the Lord and better understand his desires for his children.

We simply think that is a lifelong (and beyond) process.

I expect you believe it all happens at once when you accept Christ.

Salvation is a GIFT. It is received by faith. Service is out of love and gratitude. It's relationship. The thief on the cross didn't do anything, but he was saved by faith.

If you don't accept unconditional Grace then you go beating yourself up thinking you could have done better.

Or you get shame by others for not doing what they think is better.

I think our LDS friends fall in that category. So many requirements, so much measurement, so much of everything except the simple acknowledgement that Christ died for our sins.

Scriptures are very clear that salvation is a GIFT. Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are in the cult category because they can't accept that salvation is a GIFT received by FAITH, not works. Religion doesn't save anyone. Only Jesus.

First, they are not that clear. You've been unwilling to deliver any kind of explanation as to how the parables in Matthew 25 are anything but deeds based. It is quite clear, unless you believe the five foolish virgins were not accountable, that they are shut out because of their poor choices. There is no entering the marriage for them. The same for the foolish servant who buried his talent.

Second, the nature of salvation in the mormon world agrees with your concpet it is a gift. That is why I allude to our concept of heaven. In our world, the Lord loves his children so much that He accords them glory even if they refuse to accept him. Just not the same glory as those who do.

Third, we are quite clear (and have stated several times) that there is no salvation without Jesus Christ. That is beyond dispute. What we do dispute is that we, as individuals, are part of the equation. The New Testament states have a deep thread of that teaching running through it.

The Sermon on the Mount would be useless if that were not the case.

 

[MadChemist]

Question for my LDS friends.

As a Lutheran I can go into any Protestant or Catholic church in the world and be welcomed, baptized or not.

How come I am not welcomed in a LDS temple?

I am not sure how I would speak for Protestants or Catholics. I know I have attended their services and not been asked to leave.

I suspect you could be baptized into any church...in fact, much like our church, I suspect they would encourage it.

I don't try to answer the question around temples unless I know there is a clear understanding (not acceptance) of our doctrine regarding restoration, priesthood, and covenants. Without that understanding (again....not agreement), it simply sounds like we are exclusionary. I have fought that battle to often to go into without a basis for discussion.

 

[Flash]

Question for my LDS friends.

As a Lutheran I can go into any Protestant or Catholic church in the world and be welcomed, baptized or not.

How come I am not welcomed in a LDS temple?

I am not sure how I would speak for Protestants or Catholics. I know I have attended their services and not been asked to leave.

I suspect you could be baptized into any church...in fact, much like our church, I suspect they would encourage it.

I don't try to answer the question around temples unless I know there is a clear understanding (not acceptance) of our doctrine regarding restoration, priesthood, and covenants. Without that understanding (again....not agreement), it simply sounds like we are exclusionary. I have fought that battle to often to go into without a basis for discussion.

I would just like to know what those boys don't want us heathens to see.

Wormhole to the Planet Kolob?

Test rifle range for the magic underwear?

Them trying to baptize us?

 

[onefour1]

Faith includes good works. Good works includes keeping the commandments of God.

Matthew 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 14:15
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

James 2:14-26
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Yes, good works are the RESULT of true faith. This Scripture in James is consistently used by cults to support their doctrine of earning salvation through good deeds.

Why "Faith without Works Is Dead" - James 2:26 Meaning

Discover the meaning of "faith without works is dead" from James 2:26. How should we understand this popular and controversial Bible passage?

www.christianity.com

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not believe that anyone can earn their way into the kingdom of heaven. Without the saving grace of Jesus Christ, a man or woman could keep all the commandments and help out his fellow man in all circumstances but since he or she is in a fallen state, it would avail them nothing. It is only in and through the grace of Jesus Christ that we are saved. However, this does not mean that Christ will save all mankind into the kingdom of heaven. He does save all mankind from death and all mankind will be resurrected because of him, but only those who exercise true faith and repentance will he grant the grace of salvation into his holy kingdom. Those who do not exercise faith which includes good works and repent of their sins, will find themselves in a lower kingdom of salvation. Thus Jesus' teaching to us:

Matthew 4:17
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

We don't earn his grace either. But we know from scripture that he will not grant his grace unless we do those things which he requires of us. We need to be humble and do the will of our Father in Heaven and not believe that we can continue in sin and fail to do the good works which he requires and think that we will receive his most precious grace.

 

[Flash]

What I perceive the difference in Christianity and Mormonism doctrine to be:

Christians believe in Faith and Grace.

My understanding is that the Mormons certainly accept the Faith but have a different view of Grace. A big difference.

The Morons are a much more deeds centered religion and that is not real Christianity. That flys in the face of the concept of Grace.

The Mormons that I have discussed this with have all denied it to some degree or another but I think that is a fact.

No offense to any Mormon but I do not consider them to be Christians. At least not my Protestant understanding of Christianity.

Before denying anything, you'd have to explain the nature of Faith and Grace as you see it.

I can only do the same and then we can compare notes.

Also, what do you mean by deeds centered ?

I'll put forth this paragraph from Dallin H. Oaks from a fantastic address given in 2001:

From such teachings we conclude that the Final Judgment is not just an evaluation of a sum total of good and evil acts—what we have done. It is an acknowledgment of the final effect of our acts and thoughts—what we have become. It is not enough for anyone just to go through the motions. The commandments, ordinances, and covenants of the gospel are not a list of deposits required to be made in some heavenly account. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a plan that shows us how to become what our Heavenly Father desires us to become.

I found this to elucidate something that had eluded my ability to put into words.

With respect to Grace, or the relationship between grace and deeds, the Book of Mormon teaches:

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

As a general rule, I would say that our modern day leaders constantly testify of the central importance of the Atonement (often called one of the three pillars of eternity) in our lives. Without the Atonement, doing for us what we can't do for ourselves......there would be no salvation.

I do not apologize for any differences. We are who we are and we teach what we teach:

From the same talk given by Oaks in 2001, we also are taught that we qualify for Eteranl Live through the process of conversion (change).

We are challenged to move through a process of conversion toward that status and condition called eternal life. This is achieved not just by doing what is right, but by doing it for the right reason—for the pure love of Christ.

That process of conversion is something we chose to engage in, but would not be possible without the Atonement.

Unless I misunderstood the point you were making you were making the case for deeds.

Christians do not believe that you must do X, Y and Z before being accepted into the Kingdom of Heaven. You just have Faith and accept the Grace of God.

That, by the way, should lead to doing good deeds but being humans with free will we will always fall short of doing the right thing. Thank God that He has given us His Grace and that Jesus took that burden from us. He has forgiven us for not being perfect.

I have had this discussion many times during the time I lived among the Mormons. I have come to the conclusion that Mormons are not on the same page with the concept of Grace as Protestants or Catholics. Not by a long shot.

I would agree in the sense that we believe we do have an active part in our salvation.

I don't run from what we teach and what I believe to be true.

But deeds alone don't do it.

Not, as you say, by a long shot.

Christ does for us what we can't do for ourselves. Gethsemane was the heavy lifting done on behalf of all of us. We have to accept that and recognize that without him, heaven would never be a reality. Of course, the mormon concept of heaven is somewhat different from the protestant concept...

However, he does expect us to do our part.

I would put forth the idea that his teachings demonstrate an expectation regarding our behaviour. This is a general theme of his.

The teachings in Romans are very much pointed towards the idea that the Law of Moses was not going to complete your quest for life with God.

The person to ask about the conditions for Grace is the Thief on the Cross. All he really had was Faith.

I think we have a different perspective on that situation.

That is what I have been saying. Entirely difference perspective on the very fundamental belief of Christians.

However, to each its own.

God bless.

 

[onefour1]

It is true that good works follow true faith. For one who truly believes in Christ will do the good works that our Father in Heaven desires that we should do. One who simply claims that belief alone without having the desire to do good works doesn't really have the true faith. Thus the sermon of James.

 

[BS Filter]

John 10:31-36
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Why would Jesus call us gods if there is only one God?

Another typical Mormon doctrine. Notice the small case "g". Where is that Scripture from?

That's from the same KJV Bible that you surely use. With the same use of capitals and lower case as what onefour1 quoted. I just googled to verify that it is not just our edition, but all editions of the KJV that make that use of upper and lower cases, and even at least one or two other non-KJV versions.

What is it that you are trying to dispute, here? It seems that any disagreement on your part is with the Bible itself, or at least with the KJV.

Mormonism doesn't rightly divide the Word. Read this.

Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34: Ye are Gods – Mormonism Research Ministry

www.mrm.org

The breaking of the word of God by anti-mormons, which you often quote, hold no weight with the faithful. Jesus said:

John 10:34-35
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

In other words, it means what it means and it is in this context in which Jesus used it to mean "gods".

So you believe that Scripture is saying that YOU can become God. Is that correct?

The scripture is saying exactly what it is saying, "I said ye are gods". In this context, Jesus is telling us that we are gods. But what does he mean by this? We believe that we (those of us on this earth) are the literal offspring of God our Heavenly Father.

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

We believe that Gods beget gods. As his literal children, God refers to us as gods. Not that we rule over God's kingdom or that others on this earth should look to us as a god whom they should worship but that we are of the same species as God our Heavenly Father.

We believe that we, before coming to this earth, lived with God as spirits and are his literal offspring in spirit. This is why he is our Father in Heaven. There was a war in heaven before we all came to this earth where part of the children of God rebelled against God and were cast out of heaven into this earth. They became the devil and his angels. The rest of God's children sided with our Father and we were allowed to come to this earth and receive bodies of flesh and bones.

Revelation 12:7-11
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Consider this great scene in heaven where Michael and his angels fought against the devil and his angels. Who were Michael and angels? How does Michael and his angels overcome the devil and his angels? Verse 11 tells us. They overcome him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony. They also loved not their lives unto the death. Who is it that needs the blood of the Lamb to overcome Satan? Is it not we who are on the earth? It says that those who overcome love not their lives unto the death. Who, other than we mortals, need Jesus' blood to overcome the devil and who suffer death. Is it not we who were there with Michael as his angels in the premortal existence who fought against the dragon? Are we not now in need of the blood of the Lamb? These verses are evidence that we lived in the presence of God before coming to this earth and all who have received bodies on this earth were faithful and sided with God in the war of heaven. You were there! You are a literal child of our Father in heaven. You are a god. This why Jesus refers to the Father's children as gods.

Job 38:3-7
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Yes it is true that we do believe that among the very faithful of God's children that they can become like him in all respects.

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

It is the desire of God that we become like him. Would the Lord give us a commandment to become as perfect as our Father in heaven if it was not something that is possible?

John 17:20-23
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

1 John 3:2-3
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

We believe that the verses In Isaiah which refers to there being only one God and beside Him there is no God is in reference to this world and that on this earth we worship none other but Him. He is the true God of this world and there are no other Gods that apply to us on this earth whom we should worship. We shouldn't worship any of the children of God other than Jesus Christ whom the father has sent. The rest of us are gods in the sense that we are the children of God and are of the same species, but we are not to be considered as God (with a capital G). God is God and we are his and are to worship him and him alone. However, we do believe that we can become perfect just as our Father in Heaven is perfect. We believe that in the eternities if faithful, we too can become a father or mother of our own spirit children and have our own kingdoms which will add to the glory of our Father in Heaven. Just as in this world, we grow up and become parents of our own children, we believe this is an eternal pattern for the faithful in eternity. We believe we can grow up to become like our Father and Mother in heaven. If you become one with the Father, you will never oppose the will of the Father.

The Apostle Paul taught:

1 Corinthians 8:4-6
4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Here the Apostle Paul is speaking of eating things that are offered to idols and says that "Idols are nothing in the world and that there is none other God but one." Then Paul clarifies that there be gods many, and lords many but that to us there is but one God, the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. Here Paul clarifies that there are gods many and lords many, but for us here on earth there is but one God. Just as on earth there are father and mothers many but to each of us there is but one father and mother from whom we are born and belong to. For sure, on earth, there be those that are called gods and we know this because Jesus himself has called us gods. There will be some of us who go to heaven and thus we see that there are those also in heaven who are called gods. But we do not worship them but only the God to whom we belong, our Father in heaven.

When a believer acts according to GOD's will and behaves as GOD desires the believer to behave, then he becomes GOD's ambassador and in so doing becomes a god ---- because that one is accomplishing GOD's goals on GOD's behalf. Man is a created being. GOD was always and is forever. We have a beginning. As for there being many gods, that is so when ANYTHING becomes the focus of one's attention. Money becomes a god for one who wants more of it. Power becomes a god for one desiring to control and manipulate others. And a prophet becomes a god for those who embrace that individual's teachings at the expense of the TRUE Gospel of CHRIST. The Word clarifies the Word and exposes the falsehood of any other testament. One doesn't come to the FATHER by a burning in one's bosom. One comes to the FATHER through prayer and supplication in FAITH alone in the MESSIAH JESUS. The TRUE Word was never hid under a bushel. It sits high on a candle stand where it's light does the best work to illuminate the hearts of fallen men with GOD's salvation.

We believe that mankind's bodies were created originally from the dust of the earth and had their beginning at that time, however, we do not believe that the spirit of man had its beginning at that time but were the literal offspring of God the Father in the premortal world. There is alot of evidence of this in the Bible. A further belief of the church, however, is that before being born as spirit children of the Father, we existed eternally as intelligence which was never created or made but was as self-existent as God himself.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Abraham 3:18
18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

In the above verse, Abraham calls the intelligences spirits.

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Genesis 3:19
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

John 9:1-3
1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

The interesting thing about the above verse is that the disciples believed that the man could have sinned before being born. The Lord doesn't teach against this thought but simply gives them the true reason for the man's blindness.

Ephesians 1:4
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Here the saints at Ephesus are told they were chosen before the foundation of the world.

"In Him". Notice all the instances in the Epistles of "in Him, in Christ, etc. We are predestined IN CHRIST when we believe in Him. We are in Him. We are the body of Christ.

So you do believe in predestination ?

In Christ, yes. That's what Scripture says.

We were the only Christians that lived on my street. Everybody else LDS.

That's incorrect.

LDS/Mormons are Christians.

However, once they found out we were Lutheran and would not be attending their church they shut us off. We never had any bad words or anything, just politely declining to go to their church.

My wife and I didn't care because we had other friends. However, the Mormons also would not let their children play with our children. That really pissed me off. Our sons did not understand why the neighborhood kids wouldn't associate with them. Even the ones they went to school with. That was a crappy thing to do.

That sort of behavior is not consistent with our values.

I cannot speak for your neighbors, or know why they behaved as they did (assuming you're telling the truth), but it certainly is not the sort of behavior that the church encourages of us.

So if Mormons are Christians, then are all of the other Christians that believe in Jesus going to be with God in eternity?

We all have the same potential in terms of where we land in eternity.

Realizing that potential extends well beyond this life.

I believe the Scriptures, I am saved by faith in Jesus. I will pass into eternity when my body dies. The Scriptures don't say anything about "potential".

There are three parables in Matthew 25.

What do you think they discuss.

Do you believe that the five foolish virgins were predestined to be foolish virgins.

I don't know. I don't think predestination is the point. I believe the Scriptures that clearly say I am saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

Why did he deliver those three parables ?

What was he teaching ?

He was teaching about the Kingdom of Heaven. Stewardship. I'm sure you're gonna tell me it somehow refers to Mormonism.

You said the scriptures don't say anything about potential.

I am disagreeing.

If you don't want to discuss things, please be honest.

But to make the claims you have made so far seems a little dishonest if you call the Bible your "source of authority" and are unwilling to explain how it applies.

I am more than willing to discuss things. Disagreement is part of the conversation here. If you can't explain and defend your position, then move on. What's your source of authority?

My position is quite clear.

Matthew 25 and other scriptures most definitely talk about "potential". The five foolish virgins had the potential to be wise virgins. The parable of the sheep and the goats demonstrates we can choose to on the left or right hand of God through our choices to serve our fellowman.

If you don't agree, then please say so.

My source of authority is the preisthood of God given to his children on earth to administer his affairs. This includes those who are prophets who provide up to date correction for the saints as they wonder off the path.

Such was the case with Paul whose letters to various churches contained both praise and correction against errors.

We're discussing two different things. You believe that there is no assurance of salvation. I believe the Scriptures that state very clearly that Anyone who believes in Jesus is saved by faith. You're confused, not me.

Yet there are scriptures that state the opposite.

I am not confused.

Show me.

I just did.

Matthew 25 to start.

Nobody was predestined there.

Ok. So what is your point?

We'll just have to call this one a learning experience.

I don't see us making any progress here.

Exactly. You're trying to convince me Mormonism is real, and my faith is in Jesus and Scripture.

I think I stated early on that I don't believe we should try to convince anyone of anything.

I am asking for your perspective.

You seem bent on making statements about the church that are, in my estimation, both incorrect and uneducated.

However, it is clear you are on the defensive.

So I am, as you say, moving on.

Oh, I'm well educated on Mormonism. You're the one retreating, not me.

 

[BS Filter]

Faith includes good works. Good works includes keeping the commandments of God.

Matthew 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 14:15
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

James 2:14-26
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Yes, good works are the RESULT of true faith. This Scripture in James is consistently used by cults to support their doctrine of earning salvation through good deeds.

Why "Faith without Works Is Dead" - James 2:26 Meaning

Discover the meaning of "faith without works is dead" from James 2:26. How should we understand this popular and controversial Bible passage?

www.christianity.com

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not believe that anyone can earn their way into the kingdom of heaven. Without the saving grace of Jesus Christ, a man or woman could keep all the commandments and help out his fellow man in all circumstances but since he or she is in a fallen state, it would avail them nothing. It is only in and through the grace of Jesus Christ that we are saved. However, this does not mean that Christ will save all mankind into the kingdom of heaven. He does save all mankind from death and all mankind will be resurrected because of him, but only those who exercise true faith and repentance will he grant the grace of salvation into his holy kingdom. Those who do not exercise faith which includes good works and repent of their sins, will find themselves in a lower kingdom of salvation. Thus Jesus' teaching to us:

Matthew 4:17
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

We don't earn his grace either. But we know from scripture that he will not grant his grace unless we do those things which he requires of us. We need to be humble and do the will of our Father in Heaven and not believe that we can continue in sin and fail to do the good works which he requires and think that we will receive his most precious grace.

Is that "true faith" belief in Jesus enough or belief in Jesus AND Joseph Smith?

 

[onefour1]

Faith includes good works. Good works includes keeping the commandments of God.

Matthew 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 14:15
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

James 2:14-26
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Yes, good works are the RESULT of true faith. This Scripture in James is consistently used by cults to support their doctrine of earning salvation through good deeds.

Why "Faith without Works Is Dead" - James 2:26 Meaning

Discover the meaning of "faith without works is dead" from James 2:26. How should we understand this popular and controversial Bible passage?

www.christianity.com

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not believe that anyone can earn their way into the kingdom of heaven. Without the saving grace of Jesus Christ, a man or woman could keep all the commandments and help out his fellow man in all circumstances but since he or she is in a fallen state, it would avail them nothing. It is only in and through the grace of Jesus Christ that we are saved. However, this does not mean that Christ will save all mankind into the kingdom of heaven. He does save all mankind from death and all mankind will be resurrected because of him, but only those who exercise true faith and repentance will he grant the grace of salvation into his holy kingdom. Those who do not exercise faith which includes good works and repent of their sins, will find themselves in a lower kingdom of salvation. Thus Jesus' teaching to us:

Matthew 4:17
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

We don't earn his grace either. But we know from scripture that he will not grant his grace unless we do those things which he requires of us. We need to be humble and do the will of our Father in Heaven and not believe that we can continue in sin and fail to do the good works which he requires and think that we will receive his most precious grace.

Is that "true faith" belief in Jesus enough or belief in Jesus AND Joseph Smith?

Those who didn't believe in Moses might have said, "Is that "true faith" belief in Jesus enough or belief in Jesus AND Moses?"

Those who didn't believe in the Apostle Peter might have said, "Is that "true faith" belief in Jesus enough or belief in Jesus AND Peter?"

Those who didn't believe in the Apostle Paul might have said, "Is that "true faith" belief in Jesus enough or belief in Jesus AND Paul?"

 

[BS Filter]

Faith includes good works. Good works includes keeping the commandments of God.

Matthew 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 14:15
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

James 2:14-26
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Yes, good works are the RESULT of true faith. This Scripture in James is consistently used by cults to support their doctrine of earning salvation through good deeds.

Why "Faith without Works Is Dead" - James 2:26 Meaning

Discover the meaning of "faith without works is dead" from James 2:26. How should we understand this popular and controversial Bible passage?

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The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not believe that anyone can earn their way into the kingdom of heaven. Without the saving grace of Jesus Christ, a man or woman could keep all the commandments and help out his fellow man in all circumstances but since he or she is in a fallen state, it would avail them nothing. It is only in and through the grace of Jesus Christ that we are saved. However, this does not mean that Christ will save all mankind into the kingdom of heaven. He does save all mankind from death and all mankind will be resurrected because of him, but only those who exercise true faith and repentance will he grant the grace of salvation into his holy kingdom. Those who do not exercise faith which includes good works and repent of their sins, will find themselves in a lower kingdom of salvation. Thus Jesus' teaching to us:

Matthew 4:17
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

We don't earn his grace either. But we know from scripture that he will not grant his grace unless we do those things which he requires of us. We need to be humble and do the will of our Father in Heaven and not believe that we can continue in sin and fail to do the good works which he requires and think that we will receive his most precious grace.

Is that "true faith" belief in Jesus enough or belief in Jesus AND Joseph Smith?

Those who didn't believe in Moses might have said, "Is that "true faith" belief in Jesus enough or belief in Jesus AND Moses?"

Those who didn't believe in the Apostle Peter might have said, "Is that "true faith" belief in Jesus enough or belief in Jesus AND Peter?"

Those who didn't believe in the Apostle Paul might have said, "Is that "true faith" belief in Jesus enough or belief in Jesus AND Paul?"

What do YOU say? Is fath in Jesus enough or is faith in Jesus AND Joseph Smith necessary?

 

[onefour1]

If the Lord reveals his will through a prophet, apostle, etc. if you are going to receive the word of the Lord through his chosen servants, you better believe that they are his chosen servants or you will not believe the will of the Lord which he reveals through them. This is a personal choice and obviously you do not believe that Joseph was his chosen servant but I do. So what is your point?

 

[onefour1]

Do you believe that the Lord reveals his truths through men on the earth?

 

[Votto]

We believe that baptism is a required ordinance that one must receive in order to be saved into the kingdom of heaven.

Your beliefs are your own but they are not the beliefs of devoted Catholics or people of other faiths. You are welcome to your beliefs. The beliefs of others should be welcome and respected as well.

I never claimed that my beliefs were the beliefs of devoted Catholics or people of other faiths. We believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the one true church on the face of the earth. I am sure that many Catholics and members of other religions feel the same about their religion. Being that as it is, does not the Catholic believer and the believer of any other faith have hope that all mankind would be members of their own faiths? Just because we take it just a step further and perform a saving ordinance for people who have passed on to the spirit world, is that really a reason to get offended? I personally would not care if the Catholics or any other religion preformed ordinances or any other religious ritual on behalf of a member of my family or other member of our church. Why would I not care? Because I wouldn't believe that it had any real effect in this life or in eternity. Personally I wouldn't believe that they have any authority and that God would recognize what they do. Why would anyone even give a flying flip about it if they do not believe what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches or does? Why is it so important for others to try and force our church into doing what they think we shouldn't do if it is not truly believed that the ordinance has any real effect or meaning in this life or in eternity? In your mind are we really robbing your mother of her faith and do you believe that God or any other people on earth other than the members of our church believe in our rituals? Who cares? We care but it is our religion. You can simply choose to ignore it. I really don't see why one would take offense to something they find to be absurd or ridiculous and a waste of time.

However, when looked at from our point of view, if our church really is the true church of Jesus Christ, why would it be bad for Christ's church to seek to save all mankind? Obviously it wouldn't. Is free will being robbed from anyone? NO! Like I explained previously, we believe the person who has died is given a choice in heaven to accept or reject the baptism which we believe is performed with true authority. If they reject it then it doesn't force them into the kingdom of heaven. However, if they do accept it and if it is the true ordinance of baptism which the Lord requires for salvation, then it is a good thing. We believe that baptism for the dead, as mentioned in the bible, is a true doctrine of Christ and that it is the work of this church to baptize all mankind. We believe that all mankind will have the opportunity given them by Christ to hear and receive his gospel, if not in this world, the in the world to come. We believe that this is the reason that Christ taught the gospel to the dead as mentioned in the epistles of the Apostle Peter. Do you really believe that unbaptized babies born in this life will go to hell? Jesus has provided a means whereby all mankind will grow and have the opportunity to hear his gospel and receive the saving ordinance of baptism. It just seems to me that the true church of Jesus Christ would provide a means of salvation via baptism for the dead and the receiving of the gospel in spirit prison so that all mankind would have an equal opportunity to be saved. Why else would Jesus have preached to the spirits that were dead?

1 Peter 4:6
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

There is one commonality that pretty much all faiths share, and that is the Bible.

All religions point to Christ as a man of God. That is very telling.

No other man can make this claim

 

[BS Filter]

If the Lord reveals his will through a prophet, apostle, etc. if you are going to receive the word of the Lord through his chosen servants, you better believe that they are his chosen servants or you will not believe the will of the Lord which he reveals through them. This is a personal choice and obviously you do not believe that Joseph was his chosen servant but I do. So what is your point?

My point is Joseph Smith is a false prophet. Mormonism is not the Gospel that Paul preached, and the Apostle Paul told us that even if an angel of light preached a different Gospel, that is a false gospel and the angel is accursed.