the accidents of my experience-----were stray bullets resulting from inner city crime gun fights----
my experience. -----not da whole USA and not even the whole state
More "freedom" going on - doesnt rate a mention
- Thread starter Tommy Tainant
- Start date
the accidents of my experience-----were stray bullets resulting from inner city crime gun fights----
my experience. -----not da whole USA and not even the whole state
They actually did not ban and confiscate guns - rifles and shotguns are still legal. So that is a false claim.
Police getting shot is an extremely rare event - so are police shootings of supsects. Wouldn't that be nice here?
Britain has had three mass killing shooting sprees since 1980, according to wikipedia. THREE in almost 40 years. What is our record?
Firearms policy in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia
Which country has a higher gun violence death rate?
Their gun murder rate has not sky-rocketed in the 30 some years since they inacted the policy and the rate of police being killed has drastically gone down.
The funny thing is...when I use those same statistics to show that you are much more likely to get hit by lightening then killed by terrorists I get totally slammed.
And it's important to note that you are not very likely to become a victim of gun violence. But like terrorism - that doesn't mean you should ignore it - or worse, actively prevent research into it. Or try to inact some measures to reduce it. Any time something is recommended - they start screetching they're coming to take our guns or they are going to ban guns.
I don't see what religion has to do with it. This is what your article said:
In 2016, some 250 shootings (random, fatal and non-fatal) were registered by police in Stockholm, Gothenburg and Malmö. In 2014, that number came to 200, indicating that Sweden is experiencing a drastic rise in such incidents.
“We don’t really know why yet, but what we can see is that the increase comes as we also see a rise in gang-related crimes and a growing number of criminal networks,” Manne Gerell, a criminologist at Malmö University, told The Local, after Swedish public radio first wrote about new research he is involved in.
One study which is yet to be published suggests that Sweden experienced four to five times as many fatal shootings per capita as Norway and Germany in 2008-2014, two otherwise similar countries. Previous figures have shown that deadly violence in general is going down in Sweden, but gun violence has gone up.
Gerell also singled out Malmö, Sweden’s third-largest city, as the one place where shootings are becoming particularly common.
“Malmö stands out,” he said, noting that the southern city is somewhat more exposed to social problems and poverty in comparison to both the capital and Gothenburg.
“Malmö is also what we describe an ‘early adopter’ when it comes to crime. It was the first of the three cities where hand grenade crimes became more commonplace and it was also the place for the establishment of Sweden’s first biker-gangs. We don’t know whether this is to do with its proximity to the European continent or not, but it could explain why the trends seem to start there.”
“We don’t really know why yet, but what we can see is that the increase comes as we also see a rise in gang-related crimes and a growing number of criminal networks,” Manne Gerell, a criminologist at Malmö University, told The Local, after Swedish public radio first wrote about new research he is involved in.
One study which is yet to be published suggests that Sweden experienced four to five times as many fatal shootings per capita as Norway and Germany in 2008-2014, two otherwise similar countries. Previous figures have shown that deadly violence in general is going down in Sweden, but gun violence has gone up.
Gerell also singled out Malmö, Sweden’s third-largest city, as the one place where shootings are becoming particularly common.
“Malmö stands out,” he said, noting that the southern city is somewhat more exposed to social problems and poverty in comparison to both the capital and Gothenburg.
“Malmö is also what we describe an ‘early adopter’ when it comes to crime. It was the first of the three cities where hand grenade crimes became more commonplace and it was also the place for the establishment of Sweden’s first biker-gangs. We don’t know whether this is to do with its proximity to the European continent or not, but it could explain why the trends seem to start there.”
The article also has a mention of drug gangs.
EverCurious
Gold Member
For the record, it's not that they disagree with the stats on terrorism, its that the US is not required to take in potential terrorists regardless of the stats. We are, also, required to follow the 2nd, regardless of the stats... Kind of semantics... an apples and oranges argument...
2aguy
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Yes...their nuts don't shoot up schools....and they have been lucky last year....They average one mass shooting every ten years.....and had their last one in 2010 showing that their gun control laws didn't change their rate of mass shootings...the British culture hasn't created mass shooters......that too is changing, they had 2 attempts last year....one was stopped by the police after the idiot posted about his attack on social media, the other involved a kid who brought a shotgun to school....and changed his mind, calling the police on himself...
Plain dumb luck is not gun control working...doofus.
Cumbria shootings - Wikipedia
The Cumbria shootings occurred on 2 June 2010 when a lone gunman, Derrick Bird, killed 12 people and injured 11 others before killing himself in Cumbria, England.
Their gun murder rate went up after they banned guns and never went below where it was before they banned guns.....there was no change after banning and confiscating guns......
Rifles and shotguns....for the wealthy......handguns are banned...and are being used by criminals today in Britain
Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime
A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.
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He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.
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Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.
Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.
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Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.
He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.
Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.
He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”
2aguy
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Yes.....their gun murder rate went up...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1223193/Culture-violence-Gun-crime-goes-89-decade.html
The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent
2aguy
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Yes....we know how anti gunners work......we have a historical record of gun banning and confiscation from around the world and in this country....Germany, Britain, Australia, Canada, New York, California........they first registered guns and then banned and confiscated them.....
And none of the measures you push will do anything to stop crime or mass shootings.......but you keep pushing them...
Yet they have far far far fewer mass shootings then we do.
And far far far fewer gun related homicides.
Who are "you anti-gunners"?
I'm trying to discuss this RATIONALLY - not emotionally or fearfully as you are now doing.
I do not advocate the banning of all guns. How many times do I need to say that? Not even most guns.
I advocate common sense measures to reduce some of the gun related mortality.
- fund research into it
- register guns when bought
- background checks
- some sort of basic test of proficiency and safety (like Norway has)
- mandatory waiting periods (reduce impulsive violence or suicide)
- bans on high capacity magazines, bump stocks and assault-type rifles
- some sort of red flag when people buy large amounts of armaments and ammunition so people like the San Bernadino shooters can't amass huge armories and go out on a killing spree.
Like I said - common sense, and it leaves thousands of kinds of guns people can legally buy.
2aguy
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Yes....they banned and confiscated handguns...on an island.....they don't even understand that a shotgun is more powerful than a handgun....
Police reveal worrying new gun gang trend
A surge in the availability of handguns is blighting Merseyside’s criminal underworld and intensifying the brutality of gangland disputes.
Police fear a rise in handgun shootings is making gun crime more lethal due to increased power packed by the weapons compared to shotguns.
At least four of the 11 shootings on Merseyside in June were carried out with handguns-including the fatal blast that killed Yusuf Sonko.
Shotguns have typically been the weapon of choice for Merseyside’s gun thugs over recent years.
But that was because they were easier to access - thousands of shotguns are legally owned in the north west, typically in rural areas. Those collections have been known to be targeted by thieves looking to sell them on to gangs.
Now, a rise in handguns is raising the stakes among Merseyside criminals.
June’s most violent shootings saw handguns used. They were blasted in home raids in Seaforth and Fazakerley and at a teen on Church Road West in Walton. All three incidents saw men rushed to hospital.
2aguy
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Which has nothing to do with their gun control laws.......it is their culture.....not their gun control laws that have stopped murder.....
What part of, there gun crime is increasing, are you not getting? They are not comitting murder, yet....but that too is changing.....their culture can no longer civilize their young males....and they are importing violent 3rd world males to do the killing British nationals just won't do...
According to the tablees here (which go from 1992-2016)- there was a decline then a big rise then a big decline indicating that there are probably other factors involved as well. That decline btw went to almost the lowest number of gun deaths reported.
Now you are getting into some very subjective territory.
2aguy
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I advocate common sense measures to reduce some of the gun related mortality.
- fund research into it
- register guns when bought
- background checks
- some sort of basic test of proficiency and safety (like Norway has)
- mandatory waiting periods (reduce impulsive violence or suicide)
- bans on high capacity magazines, bump stocks and assault-type rifles
- some sort of red flag when people buy large amounts of armaments and ammunition so people like the San Bernadino shooters can't amass huge armories and go out on a killing spree.
--We fund gun research, I have in past posts linked to the gun research done by the CDC, they just can't advocate for gun control.
--Felons do not have to register their illegal guns...did you know that? Haynes v. United States......and registering a gun does not stop criminals or mass shooters....but it is the first step to confiscation and the only reason anti gunners want to register guns.....
And even if you wanted to register guns, it would fail....Canada Tried to register guns....it failed......at great cost and wasted time...
Canada Tried Registering Long Guns -- And Gave Up
15 million guns.....1 billion dollars...and it didn't work....
The law passed and starting in 1998 Canadians were required to have a license to own firearms and register their weapons with the government. According to Canadian researcher (and gun enthusiast) Gary Mauser, the Canada Firearms Center quickly rose to 600 employees and the cost of the effort climbed past $600 million. In 2002 Canada’s auditor general released a report saying initial cost estimates of $2 million (Canadian) had increased to $1 billion as the government tried to register the estimated 15 million guns owned by Canada’s 34 million residents.
The registry was plagued with complications like duplicate serial numbers and millions of incomplete records, Mauser reports. One person managed to register a soldering gun, demonstrating the lack of precise standards. And overshadowing the effort was the suspicion of misplaced effort: Pistols were used in 66% of gun homicides in 2011, yet they represent about 6% of the guns in Canada. Legal long guns were used in 11% of killings that year, according to Statistics Canada, while illegal weapons like sawed-off shotguns and machine guns, which by definition cannot be registered, were used in another 12%.
So the government was spending the bulk of its money — about $17 million of the Firearms Center’s $82 million annual budget — trying to register long guns when the statistics showed they weren’t the problem.
There was also the question of how registering guns was supposed to reduce crime and suicide in the first place. From 1997 to 2005, only 13% of the guns used in homicides were registered. Police studies in Canada estimated that 2-16% of guns used in crimes were stolen from legal owners and thus potentially in the registry. The bulk of the guns, Canadian officials concluded, were unregistered weapons imported illegally from the U.S. by criminal gangs.
Finally in 2011, conservatives led by Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper voted to abolish the long-gun registry and destroy all its records. Liberals argued the law had contributed to the decline in gun homicides since it was passed. But Mauser notes that gun homicides have actually been rising in recent years, from 151 in 1999 to 173 in 2009, as violent criminal gangs use guns in their drug turf wars and other disputes. As in the U.S., most gun homicides in Canada are committed by young males, many of them with criminal records. In the majority of homicides involving young males, the victim and the killer are know each other.
--Background checks are easily gotten around by criminals, and mass shooters pass them.....The only reason anti gunners are pushing for universal background checks is to get universal gun registration.....and criminals will get around universal background checks the same way they get around current, federally mandated background checks.......
--Proficiency tests....are used in Europe to keep people from owning guns....they have made the requirements so strict that only the rich and famous can pass the tests.....
And any Test on a Right is unConstitutional......democrats used Literacy Tests to keep blacks from voting...any test to own a gun is the same thing......
---Mandatory waiting periods....we already have them...doofus......and it doesn't stop suicides....just ask Japan, South Korea and China....all have extreme gun control, only criminals and cops can have guns...and their suicide rates are higher than ours....
And Norway....with their gun training requirement and waiting period.....higher suicide rates....
World suicide rates by country
World suicide rates by country
Per 100,000
Hungary ... 21.0
Belgium .... 18.4
Finland... 16.5
France... 14.6
Poland... 13.8
Austria... 13.8
Czech Republic... 12.7
New Zealand.... 11.9
Denmark... 11.3
Sweden..............11.1
Norway...............10.9
Iceland................10.4
Germany.............10.3
Canada...............10.2
United States.......10.1
2aguy
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And the last of your pointless ideas....
--bans on high capacity magazines, bump stocks and assault-type rifles
- some sort of red flag when people buy large amounts of armaments and ammunition so people like the San Bernadino shooters can't amass huge armories and go out on a killing spree.
-----First.....define High Capacity Magazine.....
Then, banning these magazines is stupid and pointless....criminals will get them, mass shooters will just change magazines more often...still killilng more people...as actual research shows....
Large-Capacity Magazines and the Casualty Counts in Mass Shootings: The Plausibility of Linkages by Gary Kleck :: SSRN
Do bans on large-capacity magazines (LCMs) for semiautomatic firearms have significant potential for reducing the number of deaths and injuries in mass shootings?
The most common rationale for an effect of LCM use is that they allow mass killers to fire many rounds without reloading.
LCMs are used is less than 1/3 of 1% of mass shootings.
News accounts of 23 shootings in which more than six people were killed or wounded and LCMs were used, occurring in the U.S. in 1994-2013, were examined.
There was only one incident in which the shooter may have been stopped by bystander intervention when he tried to reload.
In all of these 23 incidents the shooter possessed either multiple guns or multiple magazines, meaning that the shooter, even if denied LCMs, could have continued firing without significant interruption by either switching loaded guns or by changing smaller loaded magazines with only a 2-4 second delay for each magazine change.
Finally, the data indicate that mass shooters maintain slow enough rates of fire such that the time needed to reload would not increase the time between shots and thus the time available for prospective victims to escape.
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We did not employ the oft-used definition of “mass murder” as a homicide in which four or more victims were killed, because most of these involve just four to six victims (Duwe 2007), which could therefore have involved as few as six rounds fired, a number that shooters using even ordinary revolvers are capable of firing without reloading.
LCMs obviously cannot help shooters who fire no more rounds than could be fired without LCMs, so the inclusion of “nonaffectable” cases with only four to six victims would dilute the sample, reducing the percent of sample incidents in which an LCM might have affected the number of casualties.
Further, had we studied only homicides with four or more dead victims, drawn from the FBI’s Supplementary Homicide Reports, we would have missed cases in which huge numbers of people were shot, and huge numbers of rounds were fired, but three or fewer of the victims died.
For example, in one widely publicized shooting carried out in Los Angeles on February 28, 1997, two bank robbers shot a total of 18 people - surely a mass shooting by any reasonable standard (Table 1).
Yet, because none of the people they shot died, this incident would not qualify as a mass murder (or even murder of any kind).
Exclusion of such incidents would bias the sample against the proposition that LCM use increases the number of victims by excluding incidents with large numbers of victims. We also excluded shootings in which more than six persons were shot over the entire course of the incident but shootings occurred in multiple locations with no more than six people shot in any one of the locations, and substantial periods of time intervened between episodes of shooting. An example is the series of killings committed by Rodrick Dantzler on July 7, 2011.
Once eligible incidents were identified, we searched through news accounts for details related to whether the use of LCMs could have influenced the casualty counts.
Specifically, we searched for
(1) the number of magazines in the shooter’s immediate possession,
(2) the capacity of the largest magazine,
(3) the number of guns in the shooter’s immediate possession during the incident,
(4) the types of guns possessed,
(5) whether the shooter reloaded during the incident,
(6) the number of rounds fired,
(7) the duration of the shooting from the first shot fired to the last, and (8) whether anyone intervened to stop the shooter.
Findings How Many Mass Shootings were Committed Using LCMs?
We identified 23 total incidents in which more than six people were shot at a single time and place in the U.S. from 1994 through 2013 and that were known to involve use of any magazines with capacities over ten rounds.
Table 1 summarizes key details of the LCMinvolved mass shootings relevant to the issues addressed in this paper.
(Table 1 about here) What fraction of all mass shootings involve LCMs?
There is no comprehensive listing of all mass shootings available for the entire 1994-2013 period, but the most extensive one currently available is at the Shootingtracker.com website, which only began its coverage in 2013.
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How Often Have Bystanders Intervened While a Mass Shooter Was Trying to Reload?
First, we consider the issue of how many times people have disrupted a mass shooting while the shooter was trying to load a detachable magazine into a semiautomatic gun.
Note that 16 it is irrelevant whether interveners have stopped a shooter while trying to reload some other type of gun, using other kinds of magazines, since we are addressing the potential significance of restrictions on the capacity of detachable magazines which are used only with semiautomatic firearms.
Thus, bystander intervention directed at shooters using other types of guns that take much longer to reload than a semiautomatic gun using detachable magazines could not provide any guidance as to the likelihood of bystander intervention when the shooter was using a semiautomatic gun equipped with detachable magazines that can be reloaded very quickly.
Prospective interveners would presumably be more likely to tackle a shooter who took a long time to reload than one who took only 2-4 seconds to do so.
Likewise, bystander interventions that occurred at a time when the shooter was not reloading (e.g., when he was struggling with a defective gun or magazine) are irrelevant, since that kind of intervention could occur regardless of what kinds of magazines or firearms the shooter was using.
It is the need to reload detachable magazines sooner and more often that differentiates shooters using smaller detachable magazines from those using larger ones.
For the period 1994-2013 inclusive, we identified three mass shooting incidents in which it was claimed that interveners disrupted the shooting by tackling the shooter while he was trying to reload.
In only one of the three cases, however, did interveners actually tackle the shooter while he may have been reloading a semiautomatic firearm.
In one of the incidents, the weapon in question was a shotgun that had to be reloaded by inserting one shotshell at a time into the weapon (Knoxville News Sentinel “Takedown of Alleged Shooter Recounted” July 29, 2008, regarding a shooting in Knoxville, TN on July 27, 2008), and so the incident is irrelevant to the effects of detachable LCMs.
In another incident, occurring in Springfield, Oregon on May 21, 1998, the shooter, Kip Kinkel, was using a semiautomatic gun, and he was tackled by bystanders, but not while he was reloading.
After exhausting the ammunition in one gun, the shooter started 17 firing another loaded gun, one of three firearms he had with him.
The first intervener was shot in the hand in the course of wresting this still-loaded gun away from the shooter (The (Portland) Oregonian, May 23, 1998).
The final case occurred in Tucson, AZ on January 8, 2011.
This is the shooting in which Jared Loughner attempted to assassinate Representative Gabrielle Giffords.
The shooter was using a semiautomatic firearm and was tackled by bystanders, purportedly while trying to reload a detachable magazine.
Even in this case, however, there were important uncertainties.
According to one news account, one bystander “grabbed a full magazine” that the shooter dropped, and two others helped subdue him (Associated Press, January 9, 2011).
It is not, however, clear whether this bystander intervention was facilitated because
(1) the shooter was reloading, or because
(2) the shooter stopping firing when his gun or magazine failed to function properly.
Eyewitness testimony, including that of the interveners, was inconsistent as to exactly why or how the intervention transpired in Giffords shooting.
One intervener insisted that he was sure the shooter had exhausted the ammunition in the first magazine (and thus was about to reload) because he saw the gun’s slide locked back – a condition he believed could only occur with this particular firearm after the last round is fired.
In fact, this can also happen when the guns jams, i.e. fails to chamber the next round (Salzgeber 2014; Morrill 2014).
Complicating matters further, the New York Times reported that the spring on the second magazine was broken, presumably rendering it incapable of functioning.
Their story’s headline and text characterized this mechanical failure as “perhaps the only fortunate event of the day” (New York Times “A Single, Terrifying Moment: Shots, Scuffle, Some Luck,” January 10, 2011, p. A1)
. If the New York Times account was accurate, the shooter would not have been able to continue shooting with that magazine even if no one had stopped him from loading it into his gun.
Detachable magazines of any size can malfunction, which would at least temporarily stop a prospective mass shooter from firing, and thereby provide an opportunity for bystanders to stop the shooter.
It is possible that the bystander intervention in the Tucson case could have occurred regardless of what size magazines the shooter possessed, since a shooter struggling with a defective small-capacity magazine would be just as vulnerable to disruption as one struggling with a defective large-capacity magazine. Thus, it remains unclear whether the shooter was reloading when the bystanders tackled him.
-----
The offenders in LCM-involved mass shootings were also known to have reloaded during 14 of the 23 (61%) incidents with magazine holding over 10 rounds.
The shooters were known to have not reloaded in another two of these 20 incidents and it could not be determined if they reloaded in the remaining seven incidents.
Thus, even if the shooters had been denied LCMs, we know that most of them definitely would have been able to reload smaller detachable magazines without interference from bystanders since they in fact did change magazines.
The fact that this percentage is less than 100% should not, however, be interpreted to mean that the shooters were unable to reload in the other nine incidents.
It is possible that the shooters could also have reloaded in many of these nine shootings, but chose not to do so, or did not need to do so in order to fire all the rounds they wanted to fire. This is consistent with the fact that there has been at most only one mass shootings in twenty years in which reloading a semiautomatic firearm might have been blocked by bystanders intervening and thereby stopping the shooter from doing all the shooting he wanted to do. All we know is that in two incidents the shooter did not reload, and news accounts of seven other incidents did not mention whether the offender reloaded.
----
For example, a story in the Hartford Courant about the Sandy Hook elementary school killings in 2012 was headlined “Shooter Paused, and Six Escaped,” the text asserting that as many as six children may have survived because the shooter paused to reload (December 23, 2012). ''
The author of the story, however, went on to concede that this was just a speculation by an unnamed source, and that it was also possible that some children simply escaped when the killer was shooting other children.
There was no reliable evidence that the pauses were due to the shooter reloading, rather than his guns jamming or the shooter simply choosing to pause his shooting while his gun was still loaded.
The plausibility of the “victims escape” rationale depends on the average rates of fire that shooters in mass shootings typically maintain.
If they fire very fast, the 2-4 seconds it takes to change box-type detachable magazines could produce a slowing of the rate of fire that the shooters otherwise would have maintained without the magazine changes, increasing the average time between rounds fired and potentially allowing more victims to escape during the betweenshot intervals.
On the other hand, if mass shooters fire their guns with the average interval between shots lasting more than 2-4 seconds, the pauses due to additional magazine changes would be no longer than the pauses the shooter typically took between shots even when not reloading.
In that case, there would be no more opportunity for potential victims to escape than there would have been without the additional magazine changes
-----
In sum, in nearly all LCM-involved mass shootings, the time it takes to reload a detachable magazine is no greater than the average time between shots that the shooter takes anyway when not reloading.
Consequently, there is no affirmative evidence that reloading detachable magazines slows mass shooters’ rates of fire, and thus no affirmative evidence that the number of victims who could escape the killers due to additional pauses in the shooting is increased by the shooter’s need to change magazines.
2aguy
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- some sort of red flag when people buy large amounts of armaments and ammunition so people like the San Bernadino shooters can't amass huge armories and go out on a killing spree.
Do you realize that criminals won't comply.....they steal the ammo, or get other people to buy it for them...
Mass shooters plan their attacks 6 months to 2 years in advance, they could buy one gun every other month and still do the same amount of killing.......
Do you even think about these things before you just parrot them?
They have a new scheme in California for ammo...it only effects law abiding gun owners who do a lot of shooting....criminals, don't care or obey those laws.......
2aguy
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What is subjective......their criminals have guns....their gun crime rate across the entire country keeps going up.....27% just last year and up 42% in London......but their murder rate hasn't grown...that means the criminals are not crossing the line from robbery and rape and murdering their victims..they are still using guns.....
And the age of the gun criminal is going down, as is the age of the victim...so we are going to see gun murder going up there....
2aguy
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Find the table going back farther.......and notice....in your own table...the fatal firearm injury data...that you provided...shows that their gun control laws did not lower their fatal firearm injury rates......it had no bearing on it....and gun crime is on the rise.....
2aguy
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and here we have more warnings from Britain......
London's crime is out of control – and it's strategy, not police cuts, that are to blame
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