More "freedom" going on - doesnt rate a mention

[Coyote]

That is a bit more complicated then simple numbers. Homicides went up and then down and now show a slight rise again. What are the factors - just gun laws? Or something else? Like funding?

Gun crime in London rises by 42%
Martin Hewitt, assistant commissioner responsible for territorial policing, said: "Similar to the rest of England and Wales, crime rates in London are rising, but many of these are still at a much lower level than five years ago and are against the backdrop of significant reductions in resources.

I think it's more pertinant to compare gun homicide rates per capita between the US and the UK. How do they compare?

Yeah...see.... A bit more complicated, and you won't admit that their gun control laws are not lowering their gun crime rate...on an island, in a country with a homogenous population.........

That is a bit more complicated then simple numbers. Homicides went up and then down and now show a slight rise again.

I keep telling you that their gun control laws have nothing to do with their gun murder rate.....it is the culture of their criminals...they don't commit murder as often or easily as our inner city gang members do...

Their gun crime rate is going up....they are cutting police resources.....as you just quoted my links......and their criminals who are doing the shooting and the getting shot, are getting younger....which means their gun murder rate is about to go up.....

They are where we were going into the 1960s before our violent crime and gun crime rates spiked...

But they have far fewer gun related deaths then we do.

But they have far fewer gun related deaths then we do.

They had fewer gun related deaths than we did before they passed their gun control laws...and the levels didn't change afterward....their gun control laws had no effect. Again, their criminals will use guns to commit crime..but they don't murder their victims. They have had armed robberies in the last few months...and the criminals shot the guards in the legs.....not the head or chest.....their younger gang members...are now shooting to kill......

Here......they shot the guard 3 times in the leg......

Shocking moment armed gang shoot security guard with silenced pistol in raid on bank

Shocking CCTV footage released on Wednesday showed a Nationwide guard lying wounded on the floor after he was shot in the leg three times by one of the suspects.
-----

Two suspects, dressed in dark clothing and motorcycle crash helmets, had allegedly threatened two security guards who were refilling a cash machine.


One of the suspects, armed with a silver self-loading pistol complete with a black silencer, fired the gun a number of times after the guards refused to hand over the cash.

The guard remained in hospital for a week with serious injuries after he was shot.

The robbery has been linked to four other offences in 2016, three of which involved the use of a gun.

Actually I found something that supports your stance...and mine....interestingly. It had an effect - in conjunction with other measures. So I take your point.

Four countries with gun control – and what America could learn from them
Mark Mastaglio, an expert on firearms who worked for the Forensic Science Service for 20 years, said there was no evidence that the ban on handguns after Dunblane had done anything to cut the criminal use of firearms. “It was very rare that there was ever leakage from the licensed gun owners to the criminal fraternity. Most guns used by criminal are either illegally imported or converted weapons. And that remains the case today,” said Mastaglio.

Crime statistics in the years after the ban was introduced appear to support the theory that it had little impact. Gun crime rose sharply, to peak at 24,094 offences in 2003/4. After that the number of crimes in which a firearm was involved fell consistently, to 4,779 offences in 2013. In the year ending September 2015 there was a small rise of 4% to 4,994 offences.

Thompson said the legislation was only part of it: law enforcement agencies had to prove they would carry through on the tough penalties and there was also poor policing of gang areas, and poor ballistics records and analysis. Both were addressed in the early 2000s, when there was a huge decline in gun crime, he said.

But there has been only one mass shooting in the UK – in Whitehaven, Cumbria, in 2010, during which Derrick Bird killed 12 people – since Dunblane.

Mastaglio said: “Dunblane was certainly a turning point. It was a huge piece of legislation, and had a huge impact on registered gun owners in the UK. We now have one of the most stringent set of firearms legislation in the world – only Japan has tougher laws.”

And as I have pointed out......cuts to police, and young males ........that is the issue, not law abiding people who own guns...

Fatal police shootings hit 12-year high in England and Wales

Cody Lachey, 33 from Manchester, who was released from prison five months ago and has previously been involved in gang crime, said he believed the rise in fatal police shootings was due to the cuts to policing, which he claimed were emboldening criminals on the streets.

Speaking to The Independent, Mr Lachey said: “As we’ve seen in last few weeks, acid attacks are on rise and knife crime and gun crime are a real issue. Police numbers have been cut, and this has led to inner-city police stations closing down on a weekly basis.

“Neighbourhoods are going un-policed, the youths of today are running feral. We’ve got organised gangs, post code gangs. The police are a non-visual deterrent. We used to see ‘bobbies on the beat’ pounding on the pavement, but now it’s a thing of yesterday.

I think we can agree - it's a complex problem with many variables...yes?

And some degree of gun control might be part of the solution.

 

[2aguy]

Here's another thing. People like Paddock, who committed the worst mass shooting in modern history here - did not think about consequences. He was willing to kill himself. All the harsh penalties wouldn't have changed that. But MAYBE - a ban on bump stocks might have reduced the carnage. Why is it so unthinkable to ban bumpstocks?

Yes....that is the M.O. of mass shooters...who passed all of your gun control measures and would pass all of the ones you want in the future.......he could use dozens of 10 round magazines from 400 yards away to kill just as many people......since he was firing from a covered and concealed position with no worry about being shot at from anyone........

And of course, mass shooters are the least of the gun problem........actual criminals get guns and kill more people..........and none of your gun control measures affect them.....mine? They would put them in jail if they are caught with guns....which is the precursor crime to gun murder.........and notice, read the news...when they catch a shooter in one of these inner city shooting galleries...they will have a long criminal history and weapons charges...charges that if they followed myu 30-life, they would have been in prison, not murdering some poor slob...

 

[Coyote]

Here's another thing. People like Paddock, who committed the worst mass shooting in modern history here - did not think about consequences. He was willing to kill himself. All the harsh penalties wouldn't have changed that. But MAYBE - a ban on bump stocks might have reduced the carnage. Why is it so unthinkable to ban bumpstocks?

Yes....that is the M.O. of mass shooters...who passed all of your gun control measures and would pass all of the ones you want in the future.......he could use dozens of 10 round magazines from 400 yards away to kill just as many people......since he was firing from a covered and concealed position with no worry about being shot at from anyone........

And of course, mass shooters are the least of the gun problem........actual criminals get guns and kill more people..........and none of your gun control measures affect them.....mine? They would put them in jail if they are caught with guns....which is the precursor crime to gun murder.........and notice, read the news...when they catch a shooter in one of these inner city shooting galleries...they will have a long criminal history and weapons charges...charges that if they followed myu 30-life, they would have been in prison, not murdering some poor slob...

So why not ban bumpstocks?

 

[2aguy]

Yeah...see.... A bit more complicated, and you won't admit that their gun control laws are not lowering their gun crime rate...on an island, in a country with a homogenous population.........

That is a bit more complicated then simple numbers. Homicides went up and then down and now show a slight rise again.

I keep telling you that their gun control laws have nothing to do with their gun murder rate.....it is the culture of their criminals...they don't commit murder as often or easily as our inner city gang members do...

Their gun crime rate is going up....they are cutting police resources.....as you just quoted my links......and their criminals who are doing the shooting and the getting shot, are getting younger....which means their gun murder rate is about to go up.....

They are where we were going into the 1960s before our violent crime and gun crime rates spiked...

But they have far fewer gun related deaths then we do.

But they have far fewer gun related deaths then we do.

They had fewer gun related deaths than we did before they passed their gun control laws...and the levels didn't change afterward....their gun control laws had no effect. Again, their criminals will use guns to commit crime..but they don't murder their victims. They have had armed robberies in the last few months...and the criminals shot the guards in the legs.....not the head or chest.....their younger gang members...are now shooting to kill......

Here......they shot the guard 3 times in the leg......

Shocking moment armed gang shoot security guard with silenced pistol in raid on bank

Shocking CCTV footage released on Wednesday showed a Nationwide guard lying wounded on the floor after he was shot in the leg three times by one of the suspects.
-----

Two suspects, dressed in dark clothing and motorcycle crash helmets, had allegedly threatened two security guards who were refilling a cash machine.


One of the suspects, armed with a silver self-loading pistol complete with a black silencer, fired the gun a number of times after the guards refused to hand over the cash.

The guard remained in hospital for a week with serious injuries after he was shot.

The robbery has been linked to four other offences in 2016, three of which involved the use of a gun.

Actually I found something that supports your stance...and mine....interestingly. It had an effect - in conjunction with other measures. So I take your point.

Four countries with gun control – and what America could learn from them
Mark Mastaglio, an expert on firearms who worked for the Forensic Science Service for 20 years, said there was no evidence that the ban on handguns after Dunblane had done anything to cut the criminal use of firearms. “It was very rare that there was ever leakage from the licensed gun owners to the criminal fraternity. Most guns used by criminal are either illegally imported or converted weapons. And that remains the case today,” said Mastaglio.

Crime statistics in the years after the ban was introduced appear to support the theory that it had little impact. Gun crime rose sharply, to peak at 24,094 offences in 2003/4. After that the number of crimes in which a firearm was involved fell consistently, to 4,779 offences in 2013. In the year ending September 2015 there was a small rise of 4% to 4,994 offences.

Thompson said the legislation was only part of it: law enforcement agencies had to prove they would carry through on the tough penalties and there was also poor policing of gang areas, and poor ballistics records and analysis. Both were addressed in the early 2000s, when there was a huge decline in gun crime, he said.

But there has been only one mass shooting in the UK – in Whitehaven, Cumbria, in 2010, during which Derrick Bird killed 12 people – since Dunblane.

Mastaglio said: “Dunblane was certainly a turning point. It was a huge piece of legislation, and had a huge impact on registered gun owners in the UK. We now have one of the most stringent set of firearms legislation in the world – only Japan has tougher laws.”

And as I have pointed out......cuts to police, and young males ........that is the issue, not law abiding people who own guns...

Fatal police shootings hit 12-year high in England and Wales

Cody Lachey, 33 from Manchester, who was released from prison five months ago and has previously been involved in gang crime, said he believed the rise in fatal police shootings was due to the cuts to policing, which he claimed were emboldening criminals on the streets.

Speaking to The Independent, Mr Lachey said: “As we’ve seen in last few weeks, acid attacks are on rise and knife crime and gun crime are a real issue. Police numbers have been cut, and this has led to inner-city police stations closing down on a weekly basis.

“Neighbourhoods are going un-policed, the youths of today are running feral. We’ve got organised gangs, post code gangs. The police are a non-visual deterrent. We used to see ‘bobbies on the beat’ pounding on the pavement, but now it’s a thing of yesterday.

I think we can agree - it's a complex problem with many variables...yes?

And some degree of gun control might be part of the solution.

The complex problem is single teen motherhood, and young men being raised without fathers.

The gun control issue is easy....we already have all the gun control we need to keep gun criminals off the streets. The problem? We keep letting repeat violent gun offenders back out of jail where they then go on to commit gun murder.

magaizine limits, gun registration, universal background checks,....do nothing.

 

[Coyote]

But they have far fewer gun related deaths then we do.

But they have far fewer gun related deaths then we do.

They had fewer gun related deaths than we did before they passed their gun control laws...and the levels didn't change afterward....their gun control laws had no effect. Again, their criminals will use guns to commit crime..but they don't murder their victims. They have had armed robberies in the last few months...and the criminals shot the guards in the legs.....not the head or chest.....their younger gang members...are now shooting to kill......

Here......they shot the guard 3 times in the leg......

Shocking moment armed gang shoot security guard with silenced pistol in raid on bank

Shocking CCTV footage released on Wednesday showed a Nationwide guard lying wounded on the floor after he was shot in the leg three times by one of the suspects.
-----

Two suspects, dressed in dark clothing and motorcycle crash helmets, had allegedly threatened two security guards who were refilling a cash machine.


One of the suspects, armed with a silver self-loading pistol complete with a black silencer, fired the gun a number of times after the guards refused to hand over the cash.

The guard remained in hospital for a week with serious injuries after he was shot.

The robbery has been linked to four other offences in 2016, three of which involved the use of a gun.

Actually I found something that supports your stance...and mine....interestingly. It had an effect - in conjunction with other measures. So I take your point.

Four countries with gun control – and what America could learn from them
Mark Mastaglio, an expert on firearms who worked for the Forensic Science Service for 20 years, said there was no evidence that the ban on handguns after Dunblane had done anything to cut the criminal use of firearms. “It was very rare that there was ever leakage from the licensed gun owners to the criminal fraternity. Most guns used by criminal are either illegally imported or converted weapons. And that remains the case today,” said Mastaglio.

Crime statistics in the years after the ban was introduced appear to support the theory that it had little impact. Gun crime rose sharply, to peak at 24,094 offences in 2003/4. After that the number of crimes in which a firearm was involved fell consistently, to 4,779 offences in 2013. In the year ending September 2015 there was a small rise of 4% to 4,994 offences.

Thompson said the legislation was only part of it: law enforcement agencies had to prove they would carry through on the tough penalties and there was also poor policing of gang areas, and poor ballistics records and analysis. Both were addressed in the early 2000s, when there was a huge decline in gun crime, he said.

But there has been only one mass shooting in the UK – in Whitehaven, Cumbria, in 2010, during which Derrick Bird killed 12 people – since Dunblane.

Mastaglio said: “Dunblane was certainly a turning point. It was a huge piece of legislation, and had a huge impact on registered gun owners in the UK. We now have one of the most stringent set of firearms legislation in the world – only Japan has tougher laws.”

And as I have pointed out......cuts to police, and young males ........that is the issue, not law abiding people who own guns...

Fatal police shootings hit 12-year high in England and Wales

Cody Lachey, 33 from Manchester, who was released from prison five months ago and has previously been involved in gang crime, said he believed the rise in fatal police shootings was due to the cuts to policing, which he claimed were emboldening criminals on the streets.

Speaking to The Independent, Mr Lachey said: “As we’ve seen in last few weeks, acid attacks are on rise and knife crime and gun crime are a real issue. Police numbers have been cut, and this has led to inner-city police stations closing down on a weekly basis.

“Neighbourhoods are going un-policed, the youths of today are running feral. We’ve got organised gangs, post code gangs. The police are a non-visual deterrent. We used to see ‘bobbies on the beat’ pounding on the pavement, but now it’s a thing of yesterday.

I think we can agree - it's a complex problem with many variables...yes?

And some degree of gun control might be part of the solution.

The complex problem is single teen motherhood, and young men being raised without fathers.

The gun control issue is easy....we already have all the gun control we need to keep gun criminals off the streets. The problem? We keep letting repeat violent gun offenders back out of jail where they then go on to commit gun murder.

magaizine limits, gun registration, universal background checks,....do nothing.

I would say - at the very least - universal background checks would weed out the felons so yes they do something. Without a means of verifying a person's legal ability to buy a gun you might as well have NO gun control.

 

[2aguy]

Here's another thing. People like Paddock, who committed the worst mass shooting in modern history here - did not think about consequences. He was willing to kill himself. All the harsh penalties wouldn't have changed that. But MAYBE - a ban on bump stocks might have reduced the carnage. Why is it so unthinkable to ban bumpstocks?

Yes....that is the M.O. of mass shooters...who passed all of your gun control measures and would pass all of the ones you want in the future.......he could use dozens of 10 round magazines from 400 yards away to kill just as many people......since he was firing from a covered and concealed position with no worry about being shot at from anyone........

And of course, mass shooters are the least of the gun problem........actual criminals get guns and kill more people..........and none of your gun control measures affect them.....mine? They would put them in jail if they are caught with guns....which is the precursor crime to gun murder.........and notice, read the news...when they catch a shooter in one of these inner city shooting galleries...they will have a long criminal history and weapons charges...charges that if they followed myu 30-life, they would have been in prison, not murdering some poor slob...

So why not ban bumpstocks?

For me? I don't care about bump stocks....the problem? If you look at the legislation pushed right after Vegas...what did it do? Did it ban bumpstocks? Yep.....what else did it do? It stated that anything that made a gun shoot faster was also illegal...like installing a Flat Faced APEX trigger on a new M&P 9mm 2.0 compact.............that meant that law abiding gun owners who replaced crappy factory triggers for improved triggers......could very eaily be arrested.....

That is the problem. Anti gunners do the bait and switch..you think they are banning Bump Stocks...in reality, they are targeting normal gun owners for everything they can sneak in....

 

[2aguy]

But they have far fewer gun related deaths then we do.

They had fewer gun related deaths than we did before they passed their gun control laws...and the levels didn't change afterward....their gun control laws had no effect. Again, their criminals will use guns to commit crime..but they don't murder their victims. They have had armed robberies in the last few months...and the criminals shot the guards in the legs.....not the head or chest.....their younger gang members...are now shooting to kill......

Here......they shot the guard 3 times in the leg......

Shocking moment armed gang shoot security guard with silenced pistol in raid on bank

Shocking CCTV footage released on Wednesday showed a Nationwide guard lying wounded on the floor after he was shot in the leg three times by one of the suspects.
-----

Two suspects, dressed in dark clothing and motorcycle crash helmets, had allegedly threatened two security guards who were refilling a cash machine.


One of the suspects, armed with a silver self-loading pistol complete with a black silencer, fired the gun a number of times after the guards refused to hand over the cash.

The guard remained in hospital for a week with serious injuries after he was shot.

The robbery has been linked to four other offences in 2016, three of which involved the use of a gun.

Actually I found something that supports your stance...and mine....interestingly. It had an effect - in conjunction with other measures. So I take your point.

Four countries with gun control – and what America could learn from them
Mark Mastaglio, an expert on firearms who worked for the Forensic Science Service for 20 years, said there was no evidence that the ban on handguns after Dunblane had done anything to cut the criminal use of firearms. “It was very rare that there was ever leakage from the licensed gun owners to the criminal fraternity. Most guns used by criminal are either illegally imported or converted weapons. And that remains the case today,” said Mastaglio.

Crime statistics in the years after the ban was introduced appear to support the theory that it had little impact. Gun crime rose sharply, to peak at 24,094 offences in 2003/4. After that the number of crimes in which a firearm was involved fell consistently, to 4,779 offences in 2013. In the year ending September 2015 there was a small rise of 4% to 4,994 offences.

Thompson said the legislation was only part of it: law enforcement agencies had to prove they would carry through on the tough penalties and there was also poor policing of gang areas, and poor ballistics records and analysis. Both were addressed in the early 2000s, when there was a huge decline in gun crime, he said.

But there has been only one mass shooting in the UK – in Whitehaven, Cumbria, in 2010, during which Derrick Bird killed 12 people – since Dunblane.

Mastaglio said: “Dunblane was certainly a turning point. It was a huge piece of legislation, and had a huge impact on registered gun owners in the UK. We now have one of the most stringent set of firearms legislation in the world – only Japan has tougher laws.”

And as I have pointed out......cuts to police, and young males ........that is the issue, not law abiding people who own guns...

Fatal police shootings hit 12-year high in England and Wales

Cody Lachey, 33 from Manchester, who was released from prison five months ago and has previously been involved in gang crime, said he believed the rise in fatal police shootings was due to the cuts to policing, which he claimed were emboldening criminals on the streets.

Speaking to The Independent, Mr Lachey said: “As we’ve seen in last few weeks, acid attacks are on rise and knife crime and gun crime are a real issue. Police numbers have been cut, and this has led to inner-city police stations closing down on a weekly basis.

“Neighbourhoods are going un-policed, the youths of today are running feral. We’ve got organised gangs, post code gangs. The police are a non-visual deterrent. We used to see ‘bobbies on the beat’ pounding on the pavement, but now it’s a thing of yesterday.

I think we can agree - it's a complex problem with many variables...yes?

And some degree of gun control might be part of the solution.

The complex problem is single teen motherhood, and young men being raised without fathers.

The gun control issue is easy....we already have all the gun control we need to keep gun criminals off the streets. The problem? We keep letting repeat violent gun offenders back out of jail where they then go on to commit gun murder.

magaizine limits, gun registration, universal background checks,....do nothing.

I would say - at the very least - universal background checks would weed out the felons so yes they do something. Without a means of verifying a person's legal ability to buy a gun you might as well have NO gun control.

Sorry.....universal background checks do nothing of the sort. Currently, criminals get straw buyers to buy their guns, ( or they steal them). Those straw buyers are used because they can pass current, federally mandated background checks at gun stores...which means those same straw buyers would pass any universal background check for a private sale.....and criminals do not do private sales because they are afraid the seller will be a cop.......

We don't need universal background checks........if a felon is caught with a gun, right now....we can already arrest them. The only reason anti gunners want universal background checks is that it gives them the reason to demand universal gun registration....

 

[Coyote]

Actually I found something that supports your stance...and mine....interestingly. It had an effect - in conjunction with other measures. So I take your point.

Four countries with gun control – and what America could learn from them
Mark Mastaglio, an expert on firearms who worked for the Forensic Science Service for 20 years, said there was no evidence that the ban on handguns after Dunblane had done anything to cut the criminal use of firearms. “It was very rare that there was ever leakage from the licensed gun owners to the criminal fraternity. Most guns used by criminal are either illegally imported or converted weapons. And that remains the case today,” said Mastaglio.

Crime statistics in the years after the ban was introduced appear to support the theory that it had little impact. Gun crime rose sharply, to peak at 24,094 offences in 2003/4. After that the number of crimes in which a firearm was involved fell consistently, to 4,779 offences in 2013. In the year ending September 2015 there was a small rise of 4% to 4,994 offences.

Thompson said the legislation was only part of it: law enforcement agencies had to prove they would carry through on the tough penalties and there was also poor policing of gang areas, and poor ballistics records and analysis. Both were addressed in the early 2000s, when there was a huge decline in gun crime, he said.

But there has been only one mass shooting in the UK – in Whitehaven, Cumbria, in 2010, during which Derrick Bird killed 12 people – since Dunblane.

Mastaglio said: “Dunblane was certainly a turning point. It was a huge piece of legislation, and had a huge impact on registered gun owners in the UK. We now have one of the most stringent set of firearms legislation in the world – only Japan has tougher laws.”

And as I have pointed out......cuts to police, and young males ........that is the issue, not law abiding people who own guns...

Fatal police shootings hit 12-year high in England and Wales

Cody Lachey, 33 from Manchester, who was released from prison five months ago and has previously been involved in gang crime, said he believed the rise in fatal police shootings was due to the cuts to policing, which he claimed were emboldening criminals on the streets.

Speaking to The Independent, Mr Lachey said: “As we’ve seen in last few weeks, acid attacks are on rise and knife crime and gun crime are a real issue. Police numbers have been cut, and this has led to inner-city police stations closing down on a weekly basis.

“Neighbourhoods are going un-policed, the youths of today are running feral. We’ve got organised gangs, post code gangs. The police are a non-visual deterrent. We used to see ‘bobbies on the beat’ pounding on the pavement, but now it’s a thing of yesterday.

I think we can agree - it's a complex problem with many variables...yes?

And some degree of gun control might be part of the solution.

The complex problem is single teen motherhood, and young men being raised without fathers.

The gun control issue is easy....we already have all the gun control we need to keep gun criminals off the streets. The problem? We keep letting repeat violent gun offenders back out of jail where they then go on to commit gun murder.

magaizine limits, gun registration, universal background checks,....do nothing.

I would say - at the very least - universal background checks would weed out the felons so yes they do something. Without a means of verifying a person's legal ability to buy a gun you might as well have NO gun control.

Sorry.....universal background checks do nothing of the sort. Currently, criminals get straw buyers to buy their guns, ( or they steal them). Those straw buyers are used because they can pass current, federally mandated background checks at gun stores...which means those same straw buyers would pass any universal background check for a private sale.....and criminals do not do private sales because they are afraid the seller will be a cop.......

We don't need universal background checks........if a felon is caught with a gun, right now....we can already arrest them. The only reason anti gunners want universal background checks is that it gives them the reason to demand universal gun registration....

It may not be perfect but it's better than nothing. Same with registration. You are essentially arguing that because something isn't 100% perfect, it's useless. Legal gun owners shouldn't be afraid of registration. We register our cars and our dogs.

 

[2aguy]

But they have far fewer gun related deaths then we do.

They had fewer gun related deaths than we did before they passed their gun control laws...and the levels didn't change afterward....their gun control laws had no effect. Again, their criminals will use guns to commit crime..but they don't murder their victims. They have had armed robberies in the last few months...and the criminals shot the guards in the legs.....not the head or chest.....their younger gang members...are now shooting to kill......

Here......they shot the guard 3 times in the leg......

Shocking moment armed gang shoot security guard with silenced pistol in raid on bank

Shocking CCTV footage released on Wednesday showed a Nationwide guard lying wounded on the floor after he was shot in the leg three times by one of the suspects.
-----

Two suspects, dressed in dark clothing and motorcycle crash helmets, had allegedly threatened two security guards who were refilling a cash machine.


One of the suspects, armed with a silver self-loading pistol complete with a black silencer, fired the gun a number of times after the guards refused to hand over the cash.

The guard remained in hospital for a week with serious injuries after he was shot.

The robbery has been linked to four other offences in 2016, three of which involved the use of a gun.

Actually I found something that supports your stance...and mine....interestingly. It had an effect - in conjunction with other measures. So I take your point.

Four countries with gun control – and what America could learn from them
Mark Mastaglio, an expert on firearms who worked for the Forensic Science Service for 20 years, said there was no evidence that the ban on handguns after Dunblane had done anything to cut the criminal use of firearms. “It was very rare that there was ever leakage from the licensed gun owners to the criminal fraternity. Most guns used by criminal are either illegally imported or converted weapons. And that remains the case today,” said Mastaglio.

Crime statistics in the years after the ban was introduced appear to support the theory that it had little impact. Gun crime rose sharply, to peak at 24,094 offences in 2003/4. After that the number of crimes in which a firearm was involved fell consistently, to 4,779 offences in 2013. In the year ending September 2015 there was a small rise of 4% to 4,994 offences.

Thompson said the legislation was only part of it: law enforcement agencies had to prove they would carry through on the tough penalties and there was also poor policing of gang areas, and poor ballistics records and analysis. Both were addressed in the early 2000s, when there was a huge decline in gun crime, he said.

But there has been only one mass shooting in the UK – in Whitehaven, Cumbria, in 2010, during which Derrick Bird killed 12 people – since Dunblane.

Mastaglio said: “Dunblane was certainly a turning point. It was a huge piece of legislation, and had a huge impact on registered gun owners in the UK. We now have one of the most stringent set of firearms legislation in the world – only Japan has tougher laws.”

And as I have pointed out......cuts to police, and young males ........that is the issue, not law abiding people who own guns...

Fatal police shootings hit 12-year high in England and Wales

Cody Lachey, 33 from Manchester, who was released from prison five months ago and has previously been involved in gang crime, said he believed the rise in fatal police shootings was due to the cuts to policing, which he claimed were emboldening criminals on the streets.

Speaking to The Independent, Mr Lachey said: “As we’ve seen in last few weeks, acid attacks are on rise and knife crime and gun crime are a real issue. Police numbers have been cut, and this has led to inner-city police stations closing down on a weekly basis.

“Neighbourhoods are going un-policed, the youths of today are running feral. We’ve got organised gangs, post code gangs. The police are a non-visual deterrent. We used to see ‘bobbies on the beat’ pounding on the pavement, but now it’s a thing of yesterday.

I think we can agree - it's a complex problem with many variables...yes?

And some degree of gun control might be part of the solution.

The complex problem is single teen motherhood, and young men being raised without fathers.

The gun control issue is easy....we already have all the gun control we need to keep gun criminals off the streets. The problem? We keep letting repeat violent gun offenders back out of jail where they then go on to commit gun murder.

magaizine limits, gun registration, universal background checks,....do nothing.

I would say - at the very least - universal background checks would weed out the felons so yes they do something. Without a means of verifying a person's legal ability to buy a gun you might as well have NO gun control.

If criminals want to go online to get guns, they will use the Dark Web.......as one gun writer pointed out, you can buy people on the Dark Web, so buying guns isn't that difficult...


Report: Illegal gun sales tricky on 'Dark Web,' elusive on the surface

Between July 2015 and November 2017, the GAO recorded 79 attempts to buy firearms from private sellers online, according its report released Dec. 21. Only two proved successful — from dealers on the ‘Dark Web,’ a deeper layer of the internet accessed through specific software designed to increase anonymity. The untraceable nature of the Dark Web attracts a range of criminal activity, from drug dealing to firearms trafficking to child pornography.

-----

The 72 potential sales initiated at firearm marketplaces on the surface web — the traditional internet accessed through web browsers like Google and FireFox — all fell through.

Some 27 private sellers declined the transaction after the undercover agents disclosed their prohibited status and another 29 refused to ship across state lines. Five transactions failed because the involved website froze agents’ accounts and 11 more sellers ran scams on agents after learning of their desire to circumvent federally licensed firearms dealers.

“In two of these instances, we made a payment and never received the firearm or a refund,” the office said in the report. “In the remaining nine attempted scams, our agents determined that the seller may not be legitimate and therefore did not complete the purchase.”

 

[Coyote]

Actually I found something that supports your stance...and mine....interestingly. It had an effect - in conjunction with other measures. So I take your point.

Four countries with gun control – and what America could learn from them
Mark Mastaglio, an expert on firearms who worked for the Forensic Science Service for 20 years, said there was no evidence that the ban on handguns after Dunblane had done anything to cut the criminal use of firearms. “It was very rare that there was ever leakage from the licensed gun owners to the criminal fraternity. Most guns used by criminal are either illegally imported or converted weapons. And that remains the case today,” said Mastaglio.

Crime statistics in the years after the ban was introduced appear to support the theory that it had little impact. Gun crime rose sharply, to peak at 24,094 offences in 2003/4. After that the number of crimes in which a firearm was involved fell consistently, to 4,779 offences in 2013. In the year ending September 2015 there was a small rise of 4% to 4,994 offences.

Thompson said the legislation was only part of it: law enforcement agencies had to prove they would carry through on the tough penalties and there was also poor policing of gang areas, and poor ballistics records and analysis. Both were addressed in the early 2000s, when there was a huge decline in gun crime, he said.

But there has been only one mass shooting in the UK – in Whitehaven, Cumbria, in 2010, during which Derrick Bird killed 12 people – since Dunblane.

Mastaglio said: “Dunblane was certainly a turning point. It was a huge piece of legislation, and had a huge impact on registered gun owners in the UK. We now have one of the most stringent set of firearms legislation in the world – only Japan has tougher laws.”

And as I have pointed out......cuts to police, and young males ........that is the issue, not law abiding people who own guns...

Fatal police shootings hit 12-year high in England and Wales

Cody Lachey, 33 from Manchester, who was released from prison five months ago and has previously been involved in gang crime, said he believed the rise in fatal police shootings was due to the cuts to policing, which he claimed were emboldening criminals on the streets.

Speaking to The Independent, Mr Lachey said: “As we’ve seen in last few weeks, acid attacks are on rise and knife crime and gun crime are a real issue. Police numbers have been cut, and this has led to inner-city police stations closing down on a weekly basis.

“Neighbourhoods are going un-policed, the youths of today are running feral. We’ve got organised gangs, post code gangs. The police are a non-visual deterrent. We used to see ‘bobbies on the beat’ pounding on the pavement, but now it’s a thing of yesterday.

I think we can agree - it's a complex problem with many variables...yes?

And some degree of gun control might be part of the solution.

The complex problem is single teen motherhood, and young men being raised without fathers.

The gun control issue is easy....we already have all the gun control we need to keep gun criminals off the streets. The problem? We keep letting repeat violent gun offenders back out of jail where they then go on to commit gun murder.

magaizine limits, gun registration, universal background checks,....do nothing.

I would say - at the very least - universal background checks would weed out the felons so yes they do something. Without a means of verifying a person's legal ability to buy a gun you might as well have NO gun control.

If criminals want to go online to get guns, they will use the Dark Web.......as one gun writer pointed out, you can buy people on the Dark Web, so buying guns isn't that difficult...


Report: Illegal gun sales tricky on 'Dark Web,' elusive on the surface

Between July 2015 and November 2017, the GAO recorded 79 attempts to buy firearms from private sellers online, according its report released Dec. 21. Only two proved successful — from dealers on the ‘Dark Web,’ a deeper layer of the internet accessed through specific software designed to increase anonymity. The untraceable nature of the Dark Web attracts a range of criminal activity, from drug dealing to firearms trafficking to child pornography.

-----

The 72 potential sales initiated at firearm marketplaces on the surface web — the traditional internet accessed through web browsers like Google and FireFox — all fell through.

Some 27 private sellers declined the transaction after the undercover agents disclosed their prohibited status and another 29 refused to ship across state lines. Five transactions failed because the involved website froze agents’ accounts and 11 more sellers ran scams on agents after learning of their desire to circumvent federally licensed firearms dealers.

“In two of these instances, we made a payment and never received the firearm or a refund,” the office said in the report. “In the remaining nine attempted scams, our agents determined that the seller may not be legitimate and therefore did not complete the purchase.”

People can buy drugs on the darknet.
They can traffic other human beings.

So...we should have no laws controlling it since criminals will do it anyway?

 

[2aguy]

And as I have pointed out......cuts to police, and young males ........that is the issue, not law abiding people who own guns...

Fatal police shootings hit 12-year high in England and Wales

Cody Lachey, 33 from Manchester, who was released from prison five months ago and has previously been involved in gang crime, said he believed the rise in fatal police shootings was due to the cuts to policing, which he claimed were emboldening criminals on the streets.

Speaking to The Independent, Mr Lachey said: “As we’ve seen in last few weeks, acid attacks are on rise and knife crime and gun crime are a real issue. Police numbers have been cut, and this has led to inner-city police stations closing down on a weekly basis.

“Neighbourhoods are going un-policed, the youths of today are running feral. We’ve got organised gangs, post code gangs. The police are a non-visual deterrent. We used to see ‘bobbies on the beat’ pounding on the pavement, but now it’s a thing of yesterday.

I think we can agree - it's a complex problem with many variables...yes?

And some degree of gun control might be part of the solution.

The complex problem is single teen motherhood, and young men being raised without fathers.

The gun control issue is easy....we already have all the gun control we need to keep gun criminals off the streets. The problem? We keep letting repeat violent gun offenders back out of jail where they then go on to commit gun murder.

magaizine limits, gun registration, universal background checks,....do nothing.

I would say - at the very least - universal background checks would weed out the felons so yes they do something. Without a means of verifying a person's legal ability to buy a gun you might as well have NO gun control.

Sorry.....universal background checks do nothing of the sort. Currently, criminals get straw buyers to buy their guns, ( or they steal them). Those straw buyers are used because they can pass current, federally mandated background checks at gun stores...which means those same straw buyers would pass any universal background check for a private sale.....and criminals do not do private sales because they are afraid the seller will be a cop.......

We don't need universal background checks........if a felon is caught with a gun, right now....we can already arrest them. The only reason anti gunners want universal background checks is that it gives them the reason to demand universal gun registration....

It may not be perfect but it's better than nothing. Same with registration.

No...it is worse than nothing......universal background checks will fail to reduce gun crime and mass shootings...then, after they fail, the anti gunners will come back, with the same arguments and demand universal gun registration...because they know that they need registration in order to successfully ban and confiscate guns.....because they know that this is the procedure Britain, Australia, Germany, New York, Canada, and California did it.......

What exactly does registration do? Since guns are sold or given to criminals illegally already, the seller simply states the gun was stolen.....then, years later when the gun is found after a crime, they can't be held accountable....and right now, it is the baby mommas and grandmothers of gang members buying the guns...and prosecutors do not take those sellers to court......

 

[2aguy]

And as I have pointed out......cuts to police, and young males ........that is the issue, not law abiding people who own guns...

Fatal police shootings hit 12-year high in England and Wales

Cody Lachey, 33 from Manchester, who was released from prison five months ago and has previously been involved in gang crime, said he believed the rise in fatal police shootings was due to the cuts to policing, which he claimed were emboldening criminals on the streets.

Speaking to The Independent, Mr Lachey said: “As we’ve seen in last few weeks, acid attacks are on rise and knife crime and gun crime are a real issue. Police numbers have been cut, and this has led to inner-city police stations closing down on a weekly basis.

“Neighbourhoods are going un-policed, the youths of today are running feral. We’ve got organised gangs, post code gangs. The police are a non-visual deterrent. We used to see ‘bobbies on the beat’ pounding on the pavement, but now it’s a thing of yesterday.

I think we can agree - it's a complex problem with many variables...yes?

And some degree of gun control might be part of the solution.

The complex problem is single teen motherhood, and young men being raised without fathers.

The gun control issue is easy....we already have all the gun control we need to keep gun criminals off the streets. The problem? We keep letting repeat violent gun offenders back out of jail where they then go on to commit gun murder.

magaizine limits, gun registration, universal background checks,....do nothing.

I would say - at the very least - universal background checks would weed out the felons so yes they do something. Without a means of verifying a person's legal ability to buy a gun you might as well have NO gun control.

If criminals want to go online to get guns, they will use the Dark Web.......as one gun writer pointed out, you can buy people on the Dark Web, so buying guns isn't that difficult...


Report: Illegal gun sales tricky on 'Dark Web,' elusive on the surface

Between July 2015 and November 2017, the GAO recorded 79 attempts to buy firearms from private sellers online, according its report released Dec. 21. Only two proved successful — from dealers on the ‘Dark Web,’ a deeper layer of the internet accessed through specific software designed to increase anonymity. The untraceable nature of the Dark Web attracts a range of criminal activity, from drug dealing to firearms trafficking to child pornography.

-----

The 72 potential sales initiated at firearm marketplaces on the surface web — the traditional internet accessed through web browsers like Google and FireFox — all fell through.

Some 27 private sellers declined the transaction after the undercover agents disclosed their prohibited status and another 29 refused to ship across state lines. Five transactions failed because the involved website froze agents’ accounts and 11 more sellers ran scams on agents after learning of their desire to circumvent federally licensed firearms dealers.

“In two of these instances, we made a payment and never received the firearm or a refund,” the office said in the report. “In the remaining nine attempted scams, our agents determined that the seller may not be legitimate and therefore did not complete the purchase.”

People can buy drugs on the darknet.
They can traffic other human beings.

So...we should have no laws controlling it since criminals will do it anyway?

Where did you get that from anything I posted? That is a lazy line of attack.

I already said....if you commit a crime with a gun, 30-life. If you are a prohibited person...an actual criminal, and are caught with an illegal gun 30-life.......how is that "No Laws?"

 

[Coyote]

I think we can agree - it's a complex problem with many variables...yes?

And some degree of gun control might be part of the solution.

The complex problem is single teen motherhood, and young men being raised without fathers.

The gun control issue is easy....we already have all the gun control we need to keep gun criminals off the streets. The problem? We keep letting repeat violent gun offenders back out of jail where they then go on to commit gun murder.

magaizine limits, gun registration, universal background checks,....do nothing.

I would say - at the very least - universal background checks would weed out the felons so yes they do something. Without a means of verifying a person's legal ability to buy a gun you might as well have NO gun control.

If criminals want to go online to get guns, they will use the Dark Web.......as one gun writer pointed out, you can buy people on the Dark Web, so buying guns isn't that difficult...


Report: Illegal gun sales tricky on 'Dark Web,' elusive on the surface

Between July 2015 and November 2017, the GAO recorded 79 attempts to buy firearms from private sellers online, according its report released Dec. 21. Only two proved successful — from dealers on the ‘Dark Web,’ a deeper layer of the internet accessed through specific software designed to increase anonymity. The untraceable nature of the Dark Web attracts a range of criminal activity, from drug dealing to firearms trafficking to child pornography.

-----

The 72 potential sales initiated at firearm marketplaces on the surface web — the traditional internet accessed through web browsers like Google and FireFox — all fell through.

Some 27 private sellers declined the transaction after the undercover agents disclosed their prohibited status and another 29 refused to ship across state lines. Five transactions failed because the involved website froze agents’ accounts and 11 more sellers ran scams on agents after learning of their desire to circumvent federally licensed firearms dealers.

“In two of these instances, we made a payment and never received the firearm or a refund,” the office said in the report. “In the remaining nine attempted scams, our agents determined that the seller may not be legitimate and therefore did not complete the purchase.”

People can buy drugs on the darknet.
They can traffic other human beings.

So...we should have no laws controlling it since criminals will do it anyway?

Where did you get that from anything I posted? That is a lazy line of attack.

I already said....if you commit a crime with a gun, 30-life. If you are a prohibited person...an actual criminal, and are caught with an illegal gun 30-life.......how is that "No Laws?"

What you're saying is - if you are caught, you pay a penalty - but don't bother with prevention because there will always be someone who gets around the system.

 

[2aguy]

The complex problem is single teen motherhood, and young men being raised without fathers.

The gun control issue is easy....we already have all the gun control we need to keep gun criminals off the streets. The problem? We keep letting repeat violent gun offenders back out of jail where they then go on to commit gun murder.

magaizine limits, gun registration, universal background checks,....do nothing.

I would say - at the very least - universal background checks would weed out the felons so yes they do something. Without a means of verifying a person's legal ability to buy a gun you might as well have NO gun control.

If criminals want to go online to get guns, they will use the Dark Web.......as one gun writer pointed out, you can buy people on the Dark Web, so buying guns isn't that difficult...


Report: Illegal gun sales tricky on 'Dark Web,' elusive on the surface

Between July 2015 and November 2017, the GAO recorded 79 attempts to buy firearms from private sellers online, according its report released Dec. 21. Only two proved successful — from dealers on the ‘Dark Web,’ a deeper layer of the internet accessed through specific software designed to increase anonymity. The untraceable nature of the Dark Web attracts a range of criminal activity, from drug dealing to firearms trafficking to child pornography.

-----

The 72 potential sales initiated at firearm marketplaces on the surface web — the traditional internet accessed through web browsers like Google and FireFox — all fell through.

Some 27 private sellers declined the transaction after the undercover agents disclosed their prohibited status and another 29 refused to ship across state lines. Five transactions failed because the involved website froze agents’ accounts and 11 more sellers ran scams on agents after learning of their desire to circumvent federally licensed firearms dealers.

“In two of these instances, we made a payment and never received the firearm or a refund,” the office said in the report. “In the remaining nine attempted scams, our agents determined that the seller may not be legitimate and therefore did not complete the purchase.”

People can buy drugs on the darknet.
They can traffic other human beings.

So...we should have no laws controlling it since criminals will do it anyway?

Where did you get that from anything I posted? That is a lazy line of attack.

I already said....if you commit a crime with a gun, 30-life. If you are a prohibited person...an actual criminal, and are caught with an illegal gun 30-life.......how is that "No Laws?"

What you're saying is - if you are caught, you pay a penalty - but don't bother with prevention because there will always be someone who gets around the system.

The law is the prevention......the same way it works for any other crime. People will know that using a gun in a crime actually puts them in jail...law abiding people won't use guns for crime...as they already don't do........and criminals will be in prison for 30-life...taking them off the streets so they can't keep murdering people...

 

[Coyote]

I think we can agree - it's a complex problem with many variables...yes?

And some degree of gun control might be part of the solution.

The complex problem is single teen motherhood, and young men being raised without fathers.

The gun control issue is easy....we already have all the gun control we need to keep gun criminals off the streets. The problem? We keep letting repeat violent gun offenders back out of jail where they then go on to commit gun murder.

magaizine limits, gun registration, universal background checks,....do nothing.

I would say - at the very least - universal background checks would weed out the felons so yes they do something. Without a means of verifying a person's legal ability to buy a gun you might as well have NO gun control.

Sorry.....universal background checks do nothing of the sort. Currently, criminals get straw buyers to buy their guns, ( or they steal them). Those straw buyers are used because they can pass current, federally mandated background checks at gun stores...which means those same straw buyers would pass any universal background check for a private sale.....and criminals do not do private sales because they are afraid the seller will be a cop.......

We don't need universal background checks........if a felon is caught with a gun, right now....we can already arrest them. The only reason anti gunners want universal background checks is that it gives them the reason to demand universal gun registration....

It may not be perfect but it's better than nothing. Same with registration.

No...it is worse than nothing......universal background checks will fail to reduce gun crime and mass shootings...then, after they fail, the anti gunners will come back, with the same arguments and demand universal gun registration...because they know that they need registration in order to successfully ban and confiscate guns.....because they know that this is the procedure Britain, Australia, Germany, New York, Canada, and California did it.......

What exactly does registration do? Since guns are sold or given to criminals illegally already, the seller simply states the gun was stolen.....then, years later when the gun is found after a crime, they can't be held accountable....and right now, it is the baby mommas and grandmothers of gang members buying the guns...and prosecutors do not take those sellers to court......

Here is what registration and some form of tracking CAN do - it can serve to raise a red flag when someone purchases large amounts of ammo, weaponry, assault style equipment (like the San Bernadino shooters did) and while it can't be acted on because it's not illegal in and of itself - perhaps an eye can be kept on them.

 

[Coyote]

I would say - at the very least - universal background checks would weed out the felons so yes they do something. Without a means of verifying a person's legal ability to buy a gun you might as well have NO gun control.

If criminals want to go online to get guns, they will use the Dark Web.......as one gun writer pointed out, you can buy people on the Dark Web, so buying guns isn't that difficult...


Report: Illegal gun sales tricky on 'Dark Web,' elusive on the surface

Between July 2015 and November 2017, the GAO recorded 79 attempts to buy firearms from private sellers online, according its report released Dec. 21. Only two proved successful — from dealers on the ‘Dark Web,’ a deeper layer of the internet accessed through specific software designed to increase anonymity. The untraceable nature of the Dark Web attracts a range of criminal activity, from drug dealing to firearms trafficking to child pornography.

-----

The 72 potential sales initiated at firearm marketplaces on the surface web — the traditional internet accessed through web browsers like Google and FireFox — all fell through.

Some 27 private sellers declined the transaction after the undercover agents disclosed their prohibited status and another 29 refused to ship across state lines. Five transactions failed because the involved website froze agents’ accounts and 11 more sellers ran scams on agents after learning of their desire to circumvent federally licensed firearms dealers.

“In two of these instances, we made a payment and never received the firearm or a refund,” the office said in the report. “In the remaining nine attempted scams, our agents determined that the seller may not be legitimate and therefore did not complete the purchase.”

People can buy drugs on the darknet.
They can traffic other human beings.

So...we should have no laws controlling it since criminals will do it anyway?

Where did you get that from anything I posted? That is a lazy line of attack.

I already said....if you commit a crime with a gun, 30-life. If you are a prohibited person...an actual criminal, and are caught with an illegal gun 30-life.......how is that "No Laws?"

What you're saying is - if you are caught, you pay a penalty - but don't bother with prevention because there will always be someone who gets around the system.

The law is the prevention......the same way it works for any other crime. People will know that using a gun in a crime actually puts them in jail...law abiding people won't use guns for crime...as they already don't do........and criminals will be in prison for 30-life...taking them off the streets so they can't keep murdering people...

So why hasn't that worked?

 

[2aguy]

The complex problem is single teen motherhood, and young men being raised without fathers.

The gun control issue is easy....we already have all the gun control we need to keep gun criminals off the streets. The problem? We keep letting repeat violent gun offenders back out of jail where they then go on to commit gun murder.

magaizine limits, gun registration, universal background checks,....do nothing.

I would say - at the very least - universal background checks would weed out the felons so yes they do something. Without a means of verifying a person's legal ability to buy a gun you might as well have NO gun control.

If criminals want to go online to get guns, they will use the Dark Web.......as one gun writer pointed out, you can buy people on the Dark Web, so buying guns isn't that difficult...


Report: Illegal gun sales tricky on 'Dark Web,' elusive on the surface

Between July 2015 and November 2017, the GAO recorded 79 attempts to buy firearms from private sellers online, according its report released Dec. 21. Only two proved successful — from dealers on the ‘Dark Web,’ a deeper layer of the internet accessed through specific software designed to increase anonymity. The untraceable nature of the Dark Web attracts a range of criminal activity, from drug dealing to firearms trafficking to child pornography.

-----

The 72 potential sales initiated at firearm marketplaces on the surface web — the traditional internet accessed through web browsers like Google and FireFox — all fell through.

Some 27 private sellers declined the transaction after the undercover agents disclosed their prohibited status and another 29 refused to ship across state lines. Five transactions failed because the involved website froze agents’ accounts and 11 more sellers ran scams on agents after learning of their desire to circumvent federally licensed firearms dealers.

“In two of these instances, we made a payment and never received the firearm or a refund,” the office said in the report. “In the remaining nine attempted scams, our agents determined that the seller may not be legitimate and therefore did not complete the purchase.”

People can buy drugs on the darknet.
They can traffic other human beings.

So...we should have no laws controlling it since criminals will do it anyway?

Where did you get that from anything I posted? That is a lazy line of attack.

I already said....if you commit a crime with a gun, 30-life. If you are a prohibited person...an actual criminal, and are caught with an illegal gun 30-life.......how is that "No Laws?"

What you're saying is - if you are caught, you pay a penalty - but don't bother with prevention because there will always be someone who gets around the system.

Criminals ignore all of the laws we currently have.......and are punished when caught...just not punished enough. Mass shooters obey the laws, and will pass every hoop you pass.....then shoot people.....

 

[2aguy]

If criminals want to go online to get guns, they will use the Dark Web.......as one gun writer pointed out, you can buy people on the Dark Web, so buying guns isn't that difficult...


Report: Illegal gun sales tricky on 'Dark Web,' elusive on the surface

Between July 2015 and November 2017, the GAO recorded 79 attempts to buy firearms from private sellers online, according its report released Dec. 21. Only two proved successful — from dealers on the ‘Dark Web,’ a deeper layer of the internet accessed through specific software designed to increase anonymity. The untraceable nature of the Dark Web attracts a range of criminal activity, from drug dealing to firearms trafficking to child pornography.

-----

The 72 potential sales initiated at firearm marketplaces on the surface web — the traditional internet accessed through web browsers like Google and FireFox — all fell through.

Some 27 private sellers declined the transaction after the undercover agents disclosed their prohibited status and another 29 refused to ship across state lines. Five transactions failed because the involved website froze agents’ accounts and 11 more sellers ran scams on agents after learning of their desire to circumvent federally licensed firearms dealers.

“In two of these instances, we made a payment and never received the firearm or a refund,” the office said in the report. “In the remaining nine attempted scams, our agents determined that the seller may not be legitimate and therefore did not complete the purchase.”

People can buy drugs on the darknet.
They can traffic other human beings.

So...we should have no laws controlling it since criminals will do it anyway?

Where did you get that from anything I posted? That is a lazy line of attack.

I already said....if you commit a crime with a gun, 30-life. If you are a prohibited person...an actual criminal, and are caught with an illegal gun 30-life.......how is that "No Laws?"

What you're saying is - if you are caught, you pay a penalty - but don't bother with prevention because there will always be someone who gets around the system.

The law is the prevention......the same way it works for any other crime. People will know that using a gun in a crime actually puts them in jail...law abiding people won't use guns for crime...as they already don't do........and criminals will be in prison for 30-life...taking them off the streets so they can't keep murdering people...

So why hasn't that worked?

Because it isn't being done......gun criminals in our cities are constantly being released...with very little jail time...so they get out and commit murder.....

Rise in Murders Has St. Louis Debating Why

Jennifer M. Joyce, the city’s circuit attorney, or prosecutor, an elected position, complains that in St. Louis, the illegal possession of a gun is too often “a crime without a consequence,” making it difficult to stop confrontation from turning lethal.
------

In addition, according to a 2014 study by Mr. Rosenfeld and his colleagues, a majority of those who are convicted of illegally possessing a gun but not caught using it in a crime receive probation rather than jail time. Gun laws and enforcement are stiffer in many other cities.

-----

Chicago Officials (Finally) Recognize Criminals Cause Crime

Chicago officials have also begun to admit that the recent spike in homicides is a crime problem – not a gun problem. Just this week, Chicago Police Superintendent Eddie Johnson acknowledged that “as long as we fail to hold violent repeat offenders responsible for their actions, we’re going to hear the same stories of murders and shootings in certain parts of our city.”

Johnson blamed Chicago’s broken justice system.

“It’s frustrating for [Chicago police] to arrest a guy on Friday for an illegal gun and then the next Thursday they see him right back out on the street with another illegal gun.” A police spokesman echoed Johnson’s frustration: “with nearly half of those we arrest for murder being repeated gun offenders, we need help to ensure these individuals stay off our streets after repeated arrests for guns.”

Cook County State’s Attorney Anita Alvarez made a similar acknowledgment last week: “Criminals know and understand our system” and “tell prosecutors that Illinois gun laws are ‘a joke.’”

She noted that the worst offenders “are spending fewer and fewer days behind bars for their violent and repeat felony gun offenses,” and that “an unexplained revolving door” is “spitting these convicted criminals out of prison after they have served only a fraction of their court-imposed sentences for violent gun offenses.”

 

[2aguy]

If criminals want to go online to get guns, they will use the Dark Web.......as one gun writer pointed out, you can buy people on the Dark Web, so buying guns isn't that difficult...


Report: Illegal gun sales tricky on 'Dark Web,' elusive on the surface

Between July 2015 and November 2017, the GAO recorded 79 attempts to buy firearms from private sellers online, according its report released Dec. 21. Only two proved successful — from dealers on the ‘Dark Web,’ a deeper layer of the internet accessed through specific software designed to increase anonymity. The untraceable nature of the Dark Web attracts a range of criminal activity, from drug dealing to firearms trafficking to child pornography.

-----

The 72 potential sales initiated at firearm marketplaces on the surface web — the traditional internet accessed through web browsers like Google and FireFox — all fell through.

Some 27 private sellers declined the transaction after the undercover agents disclosed their prohibited status and another 29 refused to ship across state lines. Five transactions failed because the involved website froze agents’ accounts and 11 more sellers ran scams on agents after learning of their desire to circumvent federally licensed firearms dealers.

“In two of these instances, we made a payment and never received the firearm or a refund,” the office said in the report. “In the remaining nine attempted scams, our agents determined that the seller may not be legitimate and therefore did not complete the purchase.”

People can buy drugs on the darknet.
They can traffic other human beings.

So...we should have no laws controlling it since criminals will do it anyway?

Where did you get that from anything I posted? That is a lazy line of attack.

I already said....if you commit a crime with a gun, 30-life. If you are a prohibited person...an actual criminal, and are caught with an illegal gun 30-life.......how is that "No Laws?"

What you're saying is - if you are caught, you pay a penalty - but don't bother with prevention because there will always be someone who gets around the system.

The law is the prevention......the same way it works for any other crime. People will know that using a gun in a crime actually puts them in jail...law abiding people won't use guns for crime...as they already don't do........and criminals will be in prison for 30-life...taking them off the streets so they can't keep murdering people...

So why hasn't that worked?

And notice this set of statistics again....law abiding Americans with guns, are not driving the gun crime rate....our gun crime rates are driven by very small areas in our inner cities......very small areas......

We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 16.3 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2017...guess what happened...
-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.

 

[Coyote]

So perhaps a combination of strict sentencing and moderate gun control laws would do the trick.