Millions Of Electric Car Batteries Retiring By 2030, Are We Ready To Deal With What Could Be Ticking Time Bombs?

[badger2]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the voltage and external charger are more like a power tool in protocol than an auto battery. So unless all these anti EV people are also anti all lithium battery power tools and they refuse to have them around as well, it belongs in a discussion of power tool safety not EV s.

The dendrites (post #334) happen in a full sized EV battery. Can't say how the power tool batteries are designed or ebike batteries.

The charger in the OP's fire may have been the correct one, but an amperage over the ebike battery recommendations is risky. No details are given in the OP, though a cheap Chinese charger will go bad and a replacement will be found maybe not compatible with the battery.

 

[Dagosa]

The dendrites (post #334) happen in a full sized EV battery. Can't say how the power tool batteries are designed or ebike batteries.

The charger in the OP's fire may have been the correct one, but an amperage over the ebike battery recommendations is risky. No details are given in the OP, though a cheap Chinese charger will go bad and a replacement will be found maybe not compatible with the battery.

Generally speaking, there can be little difference between the battery packs for a car than for a tool. The cells can be similar. What’s different is how many cells and how they are configured in a pack to give the desired voltage and Capacity

Battery pack - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[toobfreak]

Sure, repeat it three times and click your heels together.

That sounds about right. You will need a fantasy miracle for your EVs to ever realize the practicality and success you imagine for them.

 

[badger2]

Generally speaking, there can be little difference between the battery packs for a car than for a tool. The cells can be similar. What’s different is how many cells and how they are configured in a pack to give the desired voltage and Capacity

Battery pack - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The cells in a battery pack of the future may be able to be monitored individually by a robot, which would decrease repair time and costs. Manufacturers should be held to some kind of design standard for cells and groups of cells. If a bot is dealing with a full warehouse at the vending station, it should be able to quickly spot a dangerous situation, made less so by lack of oxygen.

Dendrite formation is the first step in thermal runaway, post #334 says: 'It is well known that dendrite can be easily formed if the battery is charged i) at high current densities....ii) under overcharging conditions when graphite is overlithiated, iii) at low temperatures (for example, ~0 deg. C) due to increased viscosity of the liquid electrolyte and increased Li-ion diffusion resistance.'

The last item is why we will wrap the trike battery in a heating pad for subzero operation.

 

[Dagosa]

The cells in a battery pack of the future may be able to be monitored individually by a robot, which would decrease repair time and costs. Manufacturers should be held to some kind of design standard for cells and groups of cells. If a bot is dealing with a full warehouse at the vending station, it should be able to quickly spot a dangerous situation, made less so by lack of oxygen.

Dendrite formation is the first step in thermal runaway, post #334 says: 'It is well known that dendrite can be easily formed if the battery is charged i) at high current densities....ii) under overcharging conditions when graphite is overlithiated, iii) at low temperatures (for example, ~0 deg. C) due to increased viscosity of the liquid electrolyte and increased Li-ion diffusion resistance.'

The last item is why we will wrap the trike battery in a heating pad for subzero operation.

This is why you’ll never duplicated the charge capabilities of an automobile with an ebike or power tool Charger.

A built in charger in an EV prepares or conditions the battery for a charge by warming or cooling the battery to its ideal charging temps. It also keeps it in its ideal operation range.

This isn’t particular to lithium batteries, as some other battery types are subject to this condition.
NiMH batteries used by Toyota in northern climates are safer but have less density. Solid state batteries are also in the horizon within months.

Still, NONE is prone to fire at any rate approaching gasoline fires which are 11 times the EV rate. The yearly average for gasoline fires just at filling stations alone is over 4000 per year. Care to guess how many fires occur during charging at fast charge stations where batteries are most vulnerable ?

Lets see, one in the Netherlands in 2021, one in Germany in 2020…..At we close to 4000 in one year yet ?

 

[toobfreak]

Still, NONE is prone to fire at any rate approaching gasoline fires which are 11 times the EV rate.

So, considering there are 50X the number of ICE cars on the road and their fires are only 11X that of EVs actually makes them 5X safer and 5X less likely to start a fire!

Care to guess how many fires occur during charging

And gasoline fires are easy to put out compared to EV fires which once started, are nearly impossible to stop almost certain to consume the entire car, all the vehicles in the area around it, and even burn down your whole home.

So, aside from establishing that ICE cars are 5X less likely to start a fire, but when an EV does catch fire, each fire is far more dangerous, damaging and worse!

 

[Dagosa]

So, considering there are 50X the number of ICE cars on the road and their fires are only 11X that of EVs actually makes them 5X safer and 5X less likely to start a fire!

You’re an EE and you don’t know what the word Rate means? Hilarious. BTW, what does EE stand for ? You don’t compare rates linearly lie you’re doing bubba. Gessus, you’re no EE what ever that means, you don’t know math ?
You laughing at yourself for being so stupid ?

And gasoline fires are easy to put out compared to EV fires which once started, are nearly impossible to stop almost certain to consume the entire car, all the vehicles in the area around it, and even burn down your whole home.

have you ever tried to put out a gasoline fire while your in the car ? Hilarious. Want to compare the death rates between the two ?

So, aside from establishing that ICE cars are 5X less likely to start a fire, but when an EV does catch fire, each fire is far more dangerous, damaging and worse!

Made up shit…you have your numbers ass backwards Mr EE…did you take any math ?

 

[toobfreak]

You’re an EE and you don’t know what the word Rate means?

Where does the word "rate" (not even mentioned in my post above) figure into electrical theory? Is that anything like a j-operator, time constant, or phase angle?

Hilarious. BTW, what does EE stand for ?

You don't know? You sure seem to have a lot of opinions about something you know nothing about. I bet you also know a lot about SS7, common channel signaling, token ring, OC48, DS1, T1 rates and stuff like that too.

You don’t compare rates linearly lie you’re doing bubba. Gessus, you’re no EE what ever that means, you don’t know math ?

I'd be happy to supply you with an algebra problem so we can see if you can even work it out.

You laughing at yourself for being so stupid ?

No, that was me laughing at you, talking pure gibberish again.

have you ever tried to put out a gasoline fire while your in the car ?

Never have had a gasoline fire to deal with in 50 years of driving. I bet a lot of EV owners wish they could say that.

Hilarious. Want to compare the death rates between the two ?

It woulds be pointless as you've demonstrated your inability to adjust for the fact that you are comparing two things, one 98% of the market while the other a mere 2%, yet you try to relate them directly. But then, you think comparing rates of automobile fires somehow equates to electrical and electronic engineering.

Made up shit…

Story of your life.

 

[Dagosa]

Where does the word "rate" (not even mentioned in my post above) figure into electrical theory? Is that anything like a j-operator, time constant, or phase angle?

Hilarious. A rate is determined by the ratio of two known quantities, not to other rates that are determined by different quantities. You just failed your algebra test…

You don't know? You sure seem to have a lot of opinions about something you know nothing about. I bet you also know a lot about SS7, common channel signaling, token ring, OC48, DS1, T1 rates and stuff like that too.

So what does EE mean ?

I'd be happy to supply you with an algebra problem so we can see if you can even work it out.

Hilarious. I’ve already shown I can do HS math. Why should I embarrass you any more.

No, that was me laughing at you, talking pure gibberish again.

Why, because you fked up trying to incorrectly compare two ratios ? What a math illiterate you are.

Never have had a gasoline fire to deal with in 50 years of driving. I bet a lot of EV owners wish they could say that.

That’s because fires in ICE cars happen so infrequently….and depending how old the cars are that you drive, an EV is up to 100 times less likely than that. Now that is the correct way to compare ratios. And you can now see how ridiculous it is to pretend….what ever shit that Is.

It woulds be pointless as you've demonstrated your inability to adjust for the fact that you are comparing two things, one 98% of the market while the other a mere 2%, yet you try to relate them directly. But then, you think comparing rates of automobile fires somehow equates to electrical and electronic engineering.

That’s why we use the word RATE. Then you use two of the SAME comparable qualities in each different category and compare the rates. THATS HOW YOU COMPARE RATES Mr EE, not your made up shit. Give it up…you’re wrong.,

Story of your life.

 

[toobfreak]

Hilarious. A rate is determined by the ratio of two known quantities, not to other rates that are determined by different quantities. You just failed your algebra test…

Too funny. You think a ratio is algebra??? A ratio, especially one expressed with a vinculum is actually more akin to an arithmetical operation.

I’ve already shown I can do HS math. Why should I embarrass you any more.

Because it would expose you as a lying jackass.

That’s because fires in ICE cars happen so infrequently….

You said it. Thanks for again making an ass of yourself.

an EV is up to 100 times less likely than that.

More baseless unsupported bullshit?

Now that is the correct way to compare ratios.

Now WHAT is the correct way? You assign success to things you haven't even accomplished. Are you just a total idiot or a deliberate idiot liar?

And you can now see how ridiculous it is to pretend….what ever shit that Is.

What, those telecom terms I offered? You don't know the T1 rate is based on VB of the human voice? Very basic stuff.

That’s why we use the word RATE.

We? You and your dog?

THATS HOW YOU COMPARE RATES Mr EE, not your made up shit. Give it up…you’re wrong.,

What are you besides a door greeter at Walmart? Anything?

 

[badger2]

This is why you’ll never duplicated the charge capabilities of an automobile with an ebike or power tool Charger.

A built in charger in an EV prepares or conditions the battery for a charge by warming or cooling the battery to its ideal charging temps. It also keeps it in its ideal operation range.

This isn’t particular to lithium batteries, as some other battery types are subject to this condition.
NiMH batteries used by Toyota in northern climates are safer but have less density. Solid state batteries are also in the horizon within months.

Still, NONE is prone to fire at any rate approaching gasoline fires which are 11 times the EV rate. The yearly average for gasoline fires just at filling stations alone is over 4000 per year. Care to guess how many fires occur during charging at fast charge stations where batteries are most vulnerable ?

Lets see, one in the Netherlands in 2021, one in Germany in 2020…..At we close to 4000 in one year yet ?

Thanks for this info. We'd like to see the stats for Li-charging fires, anywhere.

Extrapolating speculations to a vending scenario, say in the Netherlands, a flood-proof (underground?) battery warehouse would already have the steel structure of the building to adapt to fire- and explosion-proof compartmentalization. A fire or explosion would only "kill" a robot. The robots would operate swiftly to exchange one battery for another. Why not?

 

[Dagosa]

Thanks for this info. We'd like to see the stats for Li-charging fires, anywhere.

Extrapolating speculations to a vending scenario, say in the Netherlands, a flood-proof (underground?) battery warehouse would already have the steel structure of the building to adapt to fire- and explosion-proof compartmentalization. A fire or explosion would only "kill" a robot. The robots would operate swiftly to exchange one battery for another. Why not?

Regardless, over 4000 gasoline fires happen every year at gas stations. We’ve come to expect it. Somehow, all we see in the news is the very infrequent EV fire.

 

[badger2]

Regardless, over 4000 gasoline fires happen every year at gas stations. We’ve come to expect it. Somehow, all we see in the news is the very infrequent EV fire.

Because of its profound illiteracy, this fearmongering has a short half-life.

 

[badger2]

Post #334 states: 'The reason for the improved safety of LiFePO4 is that all of the oxygen ions form strong covalent bonds with P5+ to form PO4(3-) tetrahedral polyanions, which stabilize the entire three-dimensional framework and provide improved stability compare with other cathode materials, although there still have been some battery fire accidents reported:

Lithium batteries and cathode materials - PubMed

Lithium batteries and cathode materials

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

....
To solve this problem, a concentration-gradient cathode material for rechargeable lithium batteries based on a layered lithium nickel cobalt manganese oxide has been developed. In this material, each particle has a Ni-rich central bulk and a Mn-rich outer layer, with decreasing Ni concentration and increasing Mn concentration as the surface is approached.

The former provides high capacity, whereas the latter improves thermal stability. This novel cathode material was shown to improve the safety of batteries without compromising their electrochemical performance.'

 

[ding]

Extrapolating speculations to a vending scenario, say in the Netherlands, a flood-proof (underground?) battery warehouse would already have the steel structure of the building to adapt to fire- and explosion-proof compartmentalization. A fire or explosion would only "kill" a robot. The robots would operate swiftly to exchange one battery for another. Why not?

Because this isn't a TV show like Star Trek.

 

[badger2]

Because this isn't a TV show like Star Trek.

Nuts. Now you've linked yourself to our Musk's Fascism thread. Your mental pathology is in your faulty alignment with Eddington:

Post # 640

Zone1 - No Wonder Why I Had Doubts In God's Existence Before

The more literal translation instead of 'soul' would be 'breath'. Recall in Genesis God's breath gave life to mankind. God's breath contained no wickedness because there is no wickedness in God as God rejected wickedness for Himself and His purposes. The wicked cannot get close to God because...

www.usmessageboard.com

'If Kafka is the greatest theorist of bureaucracy, it is because he shows how, at a certain level (but which one? it is not localizable), the barriers between offices cease to be a "definite dividing line" and are immersed in a molecular medium (milieu) that dissolves them and simultaneously makes the office manager proliferate into microfigures impossible to recognize or identify, discernible only when they are centralizable: another regime, coexistent with the separation (and [italics]) totalization of the rigid segments. (10.) We would even say that fascism implies a molecular regime that is distinct both from molar segments and their centralization.

Doubtless, fascism invented the concept of the totalitarian State, but there is no reason to define fascism by a concept of its own devising....
(10). Franz Kafka, The Castle, trans. Willa and Edwin Muir (New York: Knopf, 1976), especially chapter 15 (Barnabas's statements [the phrase quoted is on p. 228 - Trans]). The parable of the two offices - molar and molecular - does not just have a physical interpretation, as in Eddington, but a properly bureaucratic one as well.'
(A Thousand Plateaus: Capitalism and Schizophrenia, 9. Micropolitics and Segmentarity)

About Kafka's Scientific Intuitions

About Kafka's scientific intuitions

Arthur Stanley Eddington, a scientist and writer from the earlier part of this century, writes in "The Nature of ...

aboutkafka.blogspot.com

 

[ding]

Nuts. Now you've linked yourself to our Musk's Fascism thread. Your mental pathology is in your faulty alignment with Eddington:

Post # 640

Zone1 - No Wonder Why I Had Doubts In God's Existence Before

The more literal translation instead of 'soul' would be 'breath'. Recall in Genesis God's breath gave life to mankind. God's breath contained no wickedness because there is no wickedness in God as God rejected wickedness for Himself and His purposes. The wicked cannot get close to God because...

www.usmessageboard.com

'If Kafka is the greatest theorist of bureaucracy, it is because he shows how, at a certain level (but which one? it is not localizable), the barriers between offices cease to be a "definite dividing line" and are immersed in a molecular medium (milieu) that dissolves them and simultaneously makes the office manager proliferate into microfigures impossible to recognize or identify, discernible only when they are centralizable: another regime, coexistent with the separation (and [italics]) totalization of the rigid segments. (10.) We would even say that fascism implies a molecular regime that is distinct both from molar segments and their centralization.

Doubtless, fascism invented the concept of the totalitarian State, but there is no reason to define fascism by a concept of its own devising....
(10). Franz Kafka, The Castle, trans. Willa and Edwin Muir (New York: Knopf, 1976), especially chapter 15 (Barnabas's statements [the phrase quoted is on p. 228 - Trans]). The parable of the two offices - molar and molecular - does not just have a physical interpretation, as in Eddington, but a properly bureaucratic one as well.'
(A Thousand Plateaus: Capitalism and Schizophrenia, 9. Micropolitics and Segmentarity)

About Kafka's Scientific Intuitions

About Kafka's scientific intuitions

Arthur Stanley Eddington, a scientist and writer from the earlier part of this century, writes in "The Nature of ...

aboutkafka.blogspot.com

I'm going to have Scottie beam you up.

 

[badger2]

Robots should be able to detect problems before runaway occurs. Post #334: 'However, if thermal runaway of the LIB battery occurs, the poly(vinylidene fluoride-hexafluoro propylene) copolymer (PVDF-HFP) shell will melt as the temperature increases. Then the encapsulated triphenyl phosphate flame retardant will be released into the electrolyte, effectively suppressing combustion of the highly flammable electrolyte.'

 

[badger2]

Nov 2023 Dendrite-Free Solid State

Precise Tailoring of Lithium-Ion Transport for Ultra-long-cycling Dendrite-free All-Solid-State Lithium Metal Batteries - PubMed

All-solid-state lithium metal batteries can address crucial challenges regarding insufficient battery cycling life and energy density. The demonstration of long-cycling dendrite-free all-solid-state lithium metal batteries requires precise tailoring of lithium-ion transport of solid-state...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

'....proof of concept for precise tailoring of lithium-ion transport of solid-state electrolytes.'

 

[MisterBeale]

So what you are saying is you don't own one.

I don't get invested in this issue. .. So I can't say if this guy knows what he is talking about. . .

I trust you would be able to verify if this is BS or not. . .




If so, this seems outrageous.