Mexican President: We're not paying for the wall.

[Indeependent]

Yes, we did whip Romney's ass.
And now we're gonna whip Hillary's ass.
Oh yeah, I voted for Obama.

The sad part is that the GOP could have beat Hillary so easy, if they would just quit nominating nuts. Gerald Ford, Reagan, Bush I, could have all beat Hillary. But the GOP is on some sort of masochistic death spiral.

You just don't get it, most Republicans are NOT Neo-Cons.
**** Ford, **** Reagan, **** Bush Sr.
**** Clinton (Well, ugh, no.)

I think that you missed MY point.

Trump has already lost this election, and things just continue to get worse for him. He has lost all of his momentum, and like a bullet fired into the air, he has nowhere else to go but down.

This is true whether one hates Hillary, or not.

Nope...I TOTALLY disagree with you.
I know PLENTY of legal Mexicans and Columbians who are voting for Trump because they want an ASSERTIVE leader.
Plus their kids can't get summer jobs because all the illegals already have them.

I know tons of legal immigrants from Mexico to Central America all the way to South America......... They don't like Trump.
1. What benefits do they gain by voting Trump?
2. Their kids cannot get summer jobs............ Really? Are all summer jobs like amazons, kohl or McDonald's hire illegals?
3. What made you think these kids will even take hard and dirty labor jobs? There are shortages of workers in agricultural sector........ Why not apply there?
4. Why do you blame your failures to illegals?

Just incase you didn't know......... Trump Hispanic supporters abandoned him abandoned him after his immigration speech which is full of lies.

So a teenager in Uniondale is going to travel to a long distance locale to make MW?

 

[bravoactual]

******* duh.......offuckingcourse the Mexican president isn't going to say he'll pay for the wal

So the fact that Pena-Nieto openly states that Mexico is NOT going to pay for the wall, CONFIRMS for moronic right wingers that Mexico will pay for the wall as Trump has assured them....Fucked up much??

RePuBliKlan Logic.

 

[bravoactual]

The Press Isn't Buying It As NY Newspaper Blasts Donald Trump's "Mexican Crap Dance".

Headline says it all.

 

[S.J.]

The Press Isn't Buying It As NY Newspaper Blasts Donald Trump's "Mexican Crap Dance".

Headline says it all.

Says all we need to know about the author.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Pena-Nieto has every choice.

He will say very publicly, "**** off."

He can SAY it all he wants but he will STILL pay for the wall.

Nope. The American people will not let Trump do it.

 

[S.J.]

Pena-Nieto has every choice.

He will say very publicly, "**** off."

He can SAY it all he wants but he will STILL pay for the wall.

Nope. The American people will not let Trump do it.

 

[bravoactual]

The Press Isn't Buying It As NY Newspaper Blasts Donald Trump's "Mexican Crap Dance".

Headline says it all.

Says all we need to know about the author.

I'm not the one supporting an Antisemitic, Bigoted, Homophobic, Islamophobic, Misogyistic, Racist....which speaks volumes about you and the Trumpenfucken followers.

 

[nat4900]

I'm not the one supporting an Antisemitic, Bigoted, Homophobic, Islamophobic, Misogyistic, Racist....which speaks volumes about you and the Trumpenfucken followers.

Just for fun, I'd like to see some smart-alek reporter ask the Donald, "Mr. Trump, do you plan on building that wall on the US or the Mexican side of the border?"........................LOL

 

[Correll]

The manufacturing jobs are gone and not coming back. The only reason people are doing those jobs at all is because the cost of labor overseas is cheap and the safety requirements are low, meaning cheap. If you raise tariffs enough to make it not affordable to make stuff overseas it will come back to the USA as a highly automated process with a small fraction of the jobs the factory once had.

The only real future in jobs all over the world is in the high tech realm or in the trade jobs. Factory jobs and midlevel white collar jobs are dying.

Nonsense. Trump is going to see that every town blacksmith job and every locomotive fireman job will come back just as soon as he is elected.

Your hyperbole is noted.

Germany has TWICE the level of manufacturing employment we do. Many of those jobs are still there and can come back if we just stop being the world's ***** when it comes to trade.

And Trade jobs are effected by the Law of Supply and Demand too.

Deport the illegals. Limit legal immigration and reduce work visas.

Labor cost in Mexico is 5% of labor costs in the USA. That is why a trainload of new Ford automobiles comes up the Santa Cruz River Valley near my house from Nogales every other night.

Be sure to send me a PM when Trump brings that assembly plant back to the US.

Now that I think about it, that is too ambitious. Just send me an PM when Trump brings his own clothing business back to the US.

It seems that the cost of labor is 10 to 15% of the final cost. If that is correct, then the threatened 50% tariff would indeed, make it economically viable to move the plant back to the US.

Correll, do you even think before you post?

If the US put a tariff on Mexican goods, who pays that tariff? Answer: American consumers pay that tariff, because it is added to the price of the product that is imported to this country for sale. So, instead of Mexico paying for the wall, Americans who buy Fords pay for the wall. The alternative is that fewer Americans buy Fords. Who is hurt by that? Americans who own Ford stock are hurt by that. This is high school economics, Correll. It is no wonder that college educated people do not support Trump. And as for cutting off the flow of money to Mexico, are you aware that hundreds of millions of dollars flow to Mexico from the US under the radar from drug dealing? They found $3,000,000 in a truck 30 miles from here heading to Mexico last month. The legitimate money transactions are a drop in the bucket compared to illegally transmitted money from US to Mexico in drug and gun running. As for Mexican citizens sending money home to their families, the black market would fill that hole in a New York second. For decades, people have been routing money through Latin American countries to Cuba. They would do the same thing to get money to Mexico. or, they can just buy a money order at a bank, and send it by US mail. These simplistic Trump solutions are ludicrous at best, and downright hilarious at worst.

1. My post on tariffs was in response to your claim that an certain assembly plant would NOT move back to the US. Now that your confusion on that has been cleared up, my point stands. Labor is small enough percentage of the cost that tariffs could make moving the plant economically viable.

2. Those same "high school economics" also predicted that "Free Trade" would lead to improved competitiveness of US manufacturing and jobs would come back AND, that displaced workers would retrain quickly and easily for high tech jobs and everyone would live happily ever after.

That policy has failed. Time to change it.

3. Your claim that college educated people do not support Trump is nonsense. The "Education gap" has been greatly exaggerated.

4. I don't see how money flowing to crime cartels is just as good as money flowing to poor mexican families from the pov of the Mexican Government. I still see that as leverage. NOt to mention that sealing the border should cut down on that money flow.

5. People who break the law can be caught and punished. If we are to be serious about this shit and to stop playing games.

6. Your claim that these solutions are "ludicrous" or "simplistic" is moronic when one considers that the Hillary alternative is an ever more open border, and vastly increasing the supply of CHEAP LABOR to undermine the US working class and middle class.

Just saying something does not make it so. Even if you say it over and over again.

 

[Correll]

Way cheaper? To place guards with guns along the entire south border?

Lets do some dirty math:

1,989 miles of south border.

How much do you think it would cost to keep daily 3 shifts (about 5 FTE at $200k inc equipment, facilities administration and etc.) of guards for every 1 mile of it?

About 2 billion/ year - is that really cheaper?

I'm not against spending money, if it is worth it for Americans, but given ALREADY leveling off or even some decline among illigals is it really a major problem to spend time and resources on? Seems like this is more a case of scapegoating illegals for all our problems.

Leveling off is not acceptable.

Rapid and irreversible decline is the only scenario that is acceptable.


Deport the illegals, bring back the manufacturing jobs, and what the Law of Supply and Demand improve the lives of our Working CLass and Middle Class workers and their families.

The manufacturing jobs are gone and not coming back. The only reason people are doing those jobs at all is because the cost of labor overseas is cheap and the safety requirements are low, meaning cheap. If you raise tariffs enough to make it not affordable to make stuff overseas it will come back to the USA as a highly automated process with a small fraction of the jobs the factory once had.

The only real future in jobs all over the world is in the high tech realm or in the trade jobs. Factory jobs and midlevel white collar jobs are dying.

Nonsense. Trump is going to see that every town blacksmith job and every locomotive fireman job will come back just as soon as he is elected.

Your hyperbole is noted.

Germany has TWICE the level of manufacturing employment we do. Many of those jobs are still there and can come back if we just stop being the world's ***** when it comes to trade.

And Trade jobs are effected by the Law of Supply and Demand too.

Deport the illegals. Limit legal immigration and reduce work visas.

Germany also has a large bevy of public programs including a single payer system among other things that reduce/remove those burdens from the employer. The US doesn't have that. A lot of these plants moved overseas for cheaper labor. Labor here will not be nearly that cheap.

We are at a "cotton gin" moment in history. We have the technology to fully automate factories removing nearly every single person from the manufacturing process. The problem is up front cost. If the factories overseas move back, then there's an incentive to pay that upfront cost now as you build the new factory. There is very very little incentive to go back to the old way of doing things.

I know everyone thinks those factory jobs will come back, but they won't. Technology has moved on.

This isn't even factoring in the fact that if you raise the tariff rate, other countries will do that too in retaliation. That makes it difficult for things currently made in the US to be sold overseas and that will cost jobs. What you gain back might not even cover what you lose from a tariff war.

As for the future? Yeah, it's in tech jobs. US companies would much rather hire native born people. Hiring a foreign citizen comes with huge costs related to the immigration process for an employer. Given two equal candidates, an employer will hire a US citizen every time. The fact so many tech jobs are going to foreigners has more to do with how little we prioritize school for children compared to other things. I get actively pissed off when I hear about kids in middle and high school who are in 2-3 different sports and have average grades. Parents need to make it clear to kids the priority is your education. But that's a rant for another time.

1. I've heard libs make this claim that government social makes Germany's labor costs less than ours. I have never seen it supported with any actual data. link please.

2. We are not at a "Cotton gin moment". THat moment is coming but not for a while yet. When it is, we will know because plunging manufacturing jobs will NOT be something that is just happening to US.

3. Retaliation is a risk. But considering that we are running a 500 billion dollar a year trade deficit and are on the losing end of nearly EVERY SINGLE TRADE balance, our choice is to continue to be the world's *****, or to stand up for ourselves and our workers/citizens.

4. HIgh tech jobs are A. less numerous than older jobs, B, being filled here with cheap Visa Workers, and C also vulnerable to outsourcing. It has become more of a meaningless buzz word, than a real policy.

PS, thank you for a substantial answer with not partisan blather and spin. YOu made your points without having to call Trump supporters stupid, or racist. Good for you.

This is for you.

 

[Correll]

QUOTE="Vandalshandle, post: 15191250, member: 42404"]Correll, do you even think before you post?

If the US put a tariff on Mexican goods, who pays that tariff? Answer: American consumers pay that tariff, because it is added to the price of the product that is imported to this country for sale. So, instead of Mexico paying for the wall, Americans who buy Fords pay for the wall. The alternative is that fewer Americans buy Fords. Who is hurt by that? Americans who own Ford stock are hurt by that. This is high school economics, Correll. It is no wonder that college educated people do not support Trump. And as for cutting off the flow of money to Mexico, are you aware that hundreds of millions of dollars flow to Mexico from the US under the radar from drug dealing? They found $3,000,000 in a truck 30 miles from here heading to Mexico last month. The legitimate money transactions are a drop in the bucket compared to illegally transmitted money from US to Mexico in drug and gun running. As for Mexican citizens sending money home to their families, the black market would fill that hole in a New York second. For decades, people have been routing money through Latin American countries to Cuba. They would do the same thing to get money to Mexico. or, they can just buy a money order at a bank, and send it by US mail. These simplistic Trump solutions are ludicrous at best, and downright hilarious at worst.

Well, well stated.......

.....and let me also add my own "pet peeve" about Trump's stupidity:

Trump CANNOT "threaten" Mexico with the withholding of remittances AND also threaten Mexico with mass deportation. If the latter were to happen (which is absurd anyway) then the former is a moot point....there would be much, much less so-called illegals to send those remittances back to Mexico....rendering Trump's threat an empty one and I'm sure that the Mexican government is laughing its ass off for expection to "pay for a wall" on an empty and moronic threat.

I will give Trump ONE "point", however.......He has managed to convince millions of moronic right wingers that the MAIN threat to our country is "illegal immigration:......never mind Russia's and China's belligerence , never mind our stagnant economy...never mind some Muslims hating us to the point of unleashing terror, never mind the civil wars in Syria and Iraq, never mind our threaten environment...for Trump's acolytes, the influx of farm workers, landscaping workers, and construction workers from Latin countries is the existential threat......a STUPID and MORONIC assertion.[/QUOTE]



1. NOt all remittances come from illegals AND all illegals will not IMMEDIATELY be deported. Thus threatening remittances is real leverage.

2. Working class Americans and to a lesser extent Middle Class Americans have been aware of the shitty job market, and the competition they receive from illegals long before Trump came along. They were WAITING for someone to speak for them, and that is why his campaign became such a juggernaut.

3. The Mexican government is quaking in it's boots at the thought of losing the benefits they gain by ******* US.

4. The Cold War is over. Stop ******* with Russia.

5. If you are concerned at all about China, how about we stop giving them 300 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR TO BUILD THEMSELVES UP WITH?

6. Muslims? Who is for importing vast numbers of them and who is for importing zero of them?


7. Syria? Who wants to let Russia bomb ISIS and who wants to **** with Russia?

8. Iraq? You want to get more involved in Iraq?

9. Your constant LIE that the illegals are limited to any minor job categories and thus not a real problem is completely absurd and has repeated been debunked. You are a liar.

10. Your dismissal of low skill jobs shows you to be an elitist who lacks concern for the poorer US citizens. There are tens of millions of Americans who live on those jobs, and raise families on those wages. I support Trump because his policies will make things better for those Americans that you dismiss.


11. Your partisan blather about your enemies being moronic is just you being an ass.

For you.

 

[Correll]

The US, through illegal drug transactions, has single handedly brought the Mexican government to it's knees, by arming the cartels who are killing their citizens and corrupting their government. While we whine about Jose taking a grape picking job from an American citizen, Jose's family in Mexico is living under a rein of terror by drug lords. Mexico does not give a rat's ass about the problems that we have with illegal immigrants. It pales in comparison to the problems that Mexico has because of our money, drug, and arms trafficking to their country.

I don't do ANY ILLEGAL DRUGS.

What about you?

 

[Correll]

If I understand Trump's plan, Mexico doesn't actually "pay" for the wall.
"Paying" connotes an exchange of value, a voluntary passing of money from one hand to another.
Trump would stop the flow of that money to the country, much of which would have gone to perfectly decent Mexican citizens.
I can see this going well.
.

The "stopping the flow" of money is the leverage that he will use to get Mexico to pay for the Wall, and/or if they refuse, the back up way to get them to pay for it, less directly.
This is a conflict between the US and a nation which is violating our Sovereignty constantly and massively to the detriment of perfectly decent American citizens.
It has not been going well for decades.

i think that Trump will use the leverage sort of like this:

Trump, "El Presidente, The wall we estimate will cost us approximately $18 billion to build. You can either agree to quietly transfer the funds to us in a set of cooperative projects we have in the War on Drugs along the border, or we will take out $50 billion in a combination of a tax on wire transfers to your country, a tariff of goods entering our country and seizures of drug money, and other means. You decide what it will be and we can do business."

Mexico will say beep off. Then they'll buddy up to China and Russia who would be happy to have a foothold in North America.

Again, there's literally no incentive for Mexico to play along and short of a war, no way for the US to really compel Mexico to play along. Trump's dialogue on immigration guarantees that these threats on taxing or seizing wire transfers are empty threats as that's lost to Mexico anyway if the wall is built. Defund the war on the Cartels? So what? They'll get stronger and move into the US and stop being Mexico's problem. Or the wall will work in which case the Cartel goes broke. Either way, why should Mexico pay?

Look at this from the reverse point: Country A makes a demand that Country B pays for a wall on the border that only Country A wants. If B agrees, it represents surrendering some of it's sovereignty and says to other countries that may border B they are weak and can be threatened. B has only one choice. Say no.

Trump with his dialogue is well past the point he could have accomplished this via a negotiation that would let Mexico save face. He's burnt that bridge. He has to demand now and Mexico for the same reason HAS to say no. At which point Trump is in a corner.

This is a perfect example of why he is not ready for this job. It sounds macho to go out and demand things but on the international stage demands are met with the answer of "No." by default. They have an image to protect too. Once they've stood up to you things either escalate or someone backs down. The farther it escalates the less likely nations back down.

And before you mock Mexico as a weak nation, realize if the US does get into this pissing contest I guarantee Russia or China will want some of this action and will jump in. Both countries have been actively looking to take us down a peg and prove they're true world powers. This is how both World Wars started: with a clearly powerful country making demands of a weaker one. WWIII came damn close to happening more than once with similar scenarios. It took a lot of diplomatic skill to walk things back there and I'm not sure Trump has it.

Neither Russia nor China are in a position to make up the what the Mexicans gain from the US, if they don't play ball.


AND if Mexico didn't want US making demands of them, they should not have spent the last 50 years ******* US.

 

[Correll]

The US, through illegal drug transactions, has single handedly brought the Mexican government to it's knees, by arming the cartels who are killing their citizens and corrupting their government. While we whine about Jose taking a grape picking job from an American citizen, Jose's family in Mexico is living under a rein of terror by drug lords. Mexico does not give a rat's ass about the problems that we have with illegal immigrants. It pales in comparison to the problems that Mexico has because of our money, drug, and arms trafficking to their country.

Yeah, folks in the US do not realize that nearly all of the Cartel's weaponry comes from gun stores in the border states. The flow of money from drug users in the US and the flow of guns from gun makers in the US has given the Cartels enormous power. IF Trump hadn't opened with outrageous demands there might have been room to negotiate something with Mexico as cutting off the guns and money would give Mexico some breathing room. But he didn't go that way. He made outrageous demands that sound great on the campaign trail but are a dead end when dealing with another nation.

The gun smuggling claim is nonsense.

 

[Correll]

We have NO leverage over Mexico. Even if we slapped a tariff on the Fords assembled there, and Ford moved the plant back to Detroit (which would NOT happen), then suddenly another 10,000 Mexicans would be looking to buy a ladder to get over the wall so that they could get to Detroit and continue working for Ford. Or, maybe they will just earn a living being a drug mule, bringing meth over the border, and bringing money and guns back to Mexico.

We have VAST leverage over Mexico.

Ford won't be able to hire them because Trump will actually be enforcing E-verify.

 

[Correll]

Trump's disastrous trip to Mexico proves once again why Politics is a profession...best left to professionals. He's now a national embarassment.

Mexico is defiant.....what a shock. They ignore and mock US Immigration Laws. Their elite want to export their poor to US. We should respond by telling President Nieto that the US wants have the same Immigration Policies as Mexico. The Lefties and La Raza are going to love the Mexican Constitution that gives the government the right to keep or deport an individual on their potential to enhance the economy and the limitations on immigrants owning land and voting.

Brings up a great point. Trump could have gone down there and said “Go **** yourself”. Instead, he waited until he was in Phoenix to say a disparaging word about the Mexico.

Looks to me like your messiah is a coward.

You are delusional.

 

[Correll]

Trump's disastrous trip to Mexico proves once again why Politics is a profession...best left to professionals. He's now a national embarassment.

Mexico is defiant.....what a shock. They ignore and mock US Immigration Laws. Their elite want to export their poor to US. We should respond by telling President Nieto that the US wants have the same Immigration Policies as Mexico. The Lefties and La Raza are going to love the Mexican Constitution that gives the government the right to keep or deport an individual on their potential to enhance the economy and the limitations on immigrants owning land and voting.

Brings up a great point. Trump could have gone down there and said “Go **** yourself”. Instead, he waited until he was in Phoenix to say a disparaging word about the Mexico.

Looks to me like your messiah is a coward.

I don't think he realizes that the rest of the world is watching. He thinks he's going to be able to walk into a meeting with the Mexican President, Putin, or the Chinese Premier and they won't know what he's said on the trail. He thinks he can walk into a NATO meeting and pretend he didn't call them lazy bums who welch on the check.

He even thinks he can get away with it here. He thinks that women, Hispanics, African Americans, etc, won't remember what he says. It's almost delusional.

Nonsense.

The Mexican President is going to be hostile when we stop being their *****. There is no getting around that, unless you want to keep letting him **** the US working class.


Putin? Trump knows that the Cold War is over. PUtin will be looking forward to meetings with Trump.


China? China is ******* US to the tune fo 300 billion a year. They are going to be hostile when we stop being their *****. There is no getting around that.


NATO? **** NATO. THe Cold War is over, and they need to spend more time worrying about the tens of millions of muslims they have wandering around their nations, and less time being snotty about US Presidents.


Women do not vote in a block. Trump will win white women, the largest single woman demographic.

 

[Correll]

The president of Mexico, already incredibly unpopular, just lost any chance of being reelected, because of the anger that his visit with Trump created in his own constituency. The next Mexican president will know better than to to even dignify Trump with an acknowledgement that he exists.

I thought the visit was a disaster for Trump and that Nieto told him to **** off.

So, why the loss in popularity for Nieto? Seems the Mexican voters disagree with the libs.

 

[Correll]

Trump's disastrous trip to Mexico proves once again why Politics is a profession...best left to professionals. He's now a national embarassment.

It is not economically feasible, structurally feasible or geographically feasible to build such a wall. Walls are NOT built to keep people out, they are built to keep people in....and the Berlin Wall was such a great success at that.

Wow. That was an insanely ignorant statement.

 

[Correll]

It is not economically feasible, structurally feasible or geographically feasible to build such a wall

I believe that some ultra right wingers are all in favor of building a wall in outer space to help keep illegal Martians out.

Walls are literally Stone Age technology.

Your claim we can't do it is nonsense.