ME109K Fighter

[AZrailwhale]

Here is a tidbit. From 1942 until early 1943, the Luftwaffe put a 11 to one fighter advantage over France and Germany. They already knew that long ranged fighter cover was needed for the bombers but only had one fighter capable of doing that, the P-38G. And the doctrine at the time was for the fighters to fly in formation with the bombers. Now, that had to be stupidest idea. The P-38 could not fight at 160mph. It had to take time to spool up and get to it's fighting speed of at least 300 mph. If both the P-38G and the ME109E/F were at 300 miles per hour, the P-38 would eat the 109s lunch. So during that time, the only thing the fighter cover was doing was giving the 109s more targets and hopes that the bombers would not be shot down at such an alarming rate. By the middle of 1943, the P-47 was introduced to take the first leg where the P-38 would have more fuel. They also allowed the fighters to fly ahead and above the bombers at speed. All of a sudden, the Luftwaffe no longer had the turnkey shoot it had. They now faced a high altitude P-47D over France and a powered up P-38J over Germany. No longer was it an 11 to one deficit for the US. Plus the AAF was starting it's fighter sweeps with two of the best air to ground fighters in WWII. By the beginning of 1944, the Luftwaffe had lost a whole bunch of war assets between the two fighters and the two bombers. The beginning of 1944, the numbers had reversed where the AAF fighters out numbered the Luftwaffe.

Even during the worst time, the P-38s managed a one to one kill ratio fighting the Germans in their own radar coverage and over their home fields. That’s better that the RAF managed against German fighters in the BoB.

 

[Kruska]

There only 23 D-13s made with 17 making it into combat. Not enough to have any impact. Another too little too late.

As for the D-11, only 17 prototypes were made and it never saw combat.

Yes - and that was the whole issue.

According to my father and most of his personal friends and comrades (incl. e.g. Steinhoff, Lützow, Priller, Barkhorn, Rall, etc. ) - aircraft such as the Dorniers, Heinkels, Ju-87's and Me110/210/410 should never have been produced after mid 1943 - but only Me-109's, Fw190's and the promising variants of the Ju-88.

Same goes for the V-1, Me-163, Do-335, Salamander, etc. - draining huge material and human resources for little to no effect.
I wonder as to how an increased effort towards the Ho-229 would have payed off - however neither my father nor his Luftwaffe comrades had been aware of that aircraft.

However the "real" issue for the Luftwaffe's increasing inefficiency were the poorly trained pilots from 1940 onward and the inability of the Luftwaffe to maintain an adequate rotation system. So basically it wouldn't have mattered what fighter aircraft they would have gotten - but far more pilots might have survived.

My uncle was a Bomber pilot the younger one a fighter pilot just as my father - and the Luftwaffe had to relegate Bomber pilots and Bomber squadron leaders to run Fighter schools - such as the one where Erich Hartmann got his flying and advanced flying training. Hadn't it been for an experienced flying instructor like Rossman? - Hartmann would have gotten nowhere.

 

[westwall]

Yes - and that was the whole issue.

According to my father and most of his personal friends and comrades (incl. e.g. Steinhoff, Lützow, Priller, Barkhorn, Rall, etc. ) - aircraft such as the Dorniers, Heinkels, Ju-87's and Me110/210/410 should never have been produced after mid 1943 - but only Me-109's, Fw190's and the promising variants of the Ju-88.

Same goes for the V-1, Me-163, Do-335, Salamander, etc. - draining huge material and human resources for little to no effect.
I wonder as to how an increased effort towards the Ho-229 would have payed off - however neither my father nor his Luftwaffe comrades had been aware of that aircraft.

However the "real" issue for the Luftwaffe's increasing inefficiency were the poorly trained pilots from 1940 onward and the inability of the Luftwaffe to maintain an adequate rotation system. So basically it wouldn't have mattered what fighter aircraft they would have gotten - but far more pilots might have survived.

My uncle was a Bomber pilot the younger one a fighter pilot just as my father - and the Luftwaffe had to relegate Bomber pilots and Bomber squadron leaders to run Fighter schools - such as the one where Erich Hartmann got his flying and advanced flying training. Hadn't it been for an experienced flying instructor like Rossman? - Hartmann would have gotten nowhere.

Bubi developed his own attack style, and he was ruthless in the attack. That's why he got to where he was.

 

[Kruska]

There were very few D13s made, so the chance your dad flew one is next to nil, unless he was an Experten.

My father was NOT amongst these "Kill-Ace Experten" - despite having started his combat flying in Spain. And having reached more then 1800 flying hours to wars end.
Neither were the other two pilots of his unit, flying the D-11 and/or D12. from March-May 1945. And no - he and his comrades were not part of this/these Papagaien Staffeln either.

Between my age of 16-20 my father used to simply cut off my Luftwaffe "knowledge&speeches" with the words "What in hell and what kind of books do/did you read"?.

After having introduced me to pilots like Steinhoff, Rall and many others from 1983 onward - I started to fully understand him.
Those "books" were solely written to sell - aka "highlighting" and creating a "myth" about the Luftwaffe and it's EXPERTEN. Aka simply a continuation of the former Reichspropaganda Ministry. FYI Galland was one of the worst of these Story tellers.

Since more or less no one would have been willing to buy books - talking and referencing about how the war and air-combat really was, these Experten stories took over the market - and many interviews by American and British authors with Luftwaffe pilots were simply freely interpreted and added on by those authors own "sales promoting" accounts. (Willy Reschke was such a classic example).

E.g. Oberfeldwebel Josef "Jupp" Keil, wasn't amongst the Experten either - but had a hell of a long and impressive flying performance having also flown the Ta-152 (The unit my father had served in for around 3 month before being relegated to the Lechfeld vicinity in March 1945). !!

 

[Kruska]

Bubi developed his own attack style, and he was ruthless in the attack. That's why he got to where he was.

No he simply had evaluated ALL tactics - and chose the one that proved to be the most promising one - a tactic that more or less ALL Kill aces had adopted.
I can't find his book right now - but the flying instructor who factually taught him how to handle a fighter aircraft (Bf-109) was at the Berlin Gatow flight school.

I think it was the guy standing on the outer left - 2nd row was the instructor - without whom Hartmann most likely would not have survived the first 3 month on his Russia stint. Hartmann standing on the right last row.

BTW - the person sitting in the arm-chair was my fathers eldest brother. - aka my uncle.

 

[Vrenn]

The meaningful fighting wasn’t at low altitude. It was at between twenty five and thirty thousand feet where the bomber flew. At that altitude all three American fighters were superior to the operational German fighters. There were only a few hundred Dora’s and about one hundred fifty TA-152s built in total. All the Bf-109s were small, point defense fighters, and all the German fighters were very short ranged compared to their American counterparts. In fact the only operational American fighters with similarly limited range were the P-39 which was obsolete by 1944 and the P-63 which was nearly as fast at altitude as the Bf-109K

No matter what the altitude was where you started, you ended up going down to the deck unless the defender decides to break it off and allow you to get your altitude back and it all starts over again.

 

[Vrenn]

Even during the worst time, the P-38s managed a one to one kill ratio fighting the Germans in their own radar coverage and over their home fields. That’s better that the RAF managed against German fighters in the BoB.

Actually, in 1942, the P-38 chalked up a 1.3 to 1 rate. In 1944 and the first part of 1945, it jumped to 11 to one.

 

[Mac-7]

Off course they could - the US and British supplies came at a time when the Soviet industrial shift to behind the Ural was underway.
So it helped them to deny the Germans the Caucasus, Leningrad & Moscow vicinity. Upon Sept. 1942 the Soviets were churning out 3-4 times the quantities of Germany - whilst being able to field 3x more troops. Attacking the Soviet-Union in 1941 was by far the Austrians biggest mistake - aside from Dunkirk.

Attacking the Soviet-Union in 1941 was by far the Austrians biggest mistake - aside from Dunkirk.

I agree with your last statement

Hitler made a number of mistakes

Dunkirk was one

Not invading Britain was another

And another big mistake was declaring war on the US after Pearl Harbor

 

[Vrenn]

Attacking the Soviet-Union in 1941 was by far the Austrians biggest mistake - aside from Dunkirk.

I agree with your last statement

Hitler made a number of mistakes

Dunkirk was one

At that time Hitler was trying to avoid other Arian nations.

Not invading Britain was another

For the same reason the US avoided invading Japan.

And another big mistake was declaring war on the US after Pearl Harbor

I somewhat agreed with that statement except had Germany not declared war on the US right then, the Axis alliance would have been not worth the paper it was written on.

 

[westwall]

My father was NOT amongst these "Kill-Ace Experten" - despite having started his combat flying in Spain. And having reached more then 1800 flying hours to wars end.
Neither were the other two pilots of his unit, flying the D-11 and/or D12. from March-May 1945. And no - he and his comrades were not part of this/these Papagaien Staffeln either.

Between my age of 16-20 my father used to simply cut off my Luftwaffe "knowledge&speeches" with the words "What in hell and what kind of books do/did you read"?.

After having introduced me to pilots like Steinhoff, Rall and many others from 1983 onward - I started to fully understand him.
Those "books" were solely written to sell - aka "highlighting" and creating a "myth" about the Luftwaffe and it's EXPERTEN. Aka simply a continuation of the former Reichspropaganda Ministry. FYI Galland was one of the worst of these Story tellers.

Since more or less no one would have been willing to buy books - talking and referencing about how the war and air-combat really was, these Experten stories took over the market - and many interviews by American and British authors with Luftwaffe pilots were simply freely interpreted and added on by those authors own "sales promoting" accounts. (Willy Reschke was such a classic example).

E.g. Oberfeldwebel Josef "Jupp" Keil, wasn't amongst the Experten either - but had a hell of a long and impressive flying performance having also flown the Ta-152 (The unit my father had served in for around 3 month before being relegated to the Lechfeld vicinity in March 1945). !!

Rall was a close friend. I attended his funeral in point of fact, I knew Hartmann as well, though not nearly as well. I was also friends with Zemke and Johnnie Johnson, so got info from all sides except the Russian.

There is no myth about the experten, they had the good luck to survive long enough to get great skill at air combat.

 

[Kruska]

Rall was a close friend. I attended his funeral in point of fact, I knew Hartmann as well, though not nearly as well. I was also friends with Zemke and Johnnie Johnson, so got info from all sides except the Russian.

There is no myth about the experten, they had the good luck to survive long enough to get great skill at air combat.

Never got to know Hartmann - just his nephew (served for a couple of month in my unit).

Where did you get to know Rall? He had factually lost his commission due to having visited my father and a former Comrade of his in SWA and the RSA. It was in regards to the old FJS connection.

The "myth" are their incorrect kill scores and the method in which many of those kills had been attributed. Not to mention how many of these Aces (Halsschmerzen fellows) had "intentionally" sacrificed their wing-man or Staffel comrades to "collect" kills.

But one needed to be behold this "first me then others" attitude, to get a Knights-cross.

BTW - my father in 9 years - never lost a Rottenkamerad or Schwarm member. Whilst having protected hundreds of newbies on his missions. - already during the low countries and the BoB.

 

[Kruska]

And another big mistake was declaring war on the US after Pearl Harbor

Didn't really matter IMO, taking the factual huge aid shipments of the USA to Britain and the SU into account.

 

[westwall]

Never got to know Hartmann - just his nephew (served for a couple of month in my unit).

Where did you get to know Rall? He had factually lost his commission due to having visited my father and a former Comrade of his in SWA and the RSA. It was in regards to the old FJS connection.

The "myth" are their incorrect kill scores and the method in which many of those kills had been attributed. Not to mention how many of these Aces (Halsschmerzen fellows) had "intentionally" sacrificed their wing-man or Staffel comrades to "collect" kills.

But one needed to be behold this "first me then others" attitude, to get a Knights-cross.

BTW - my father in 9 years - never lost a Rottenkamerad or Schwarm member. Whilst having protected hundreds of newbies on his missions. - already during the low countries and the BoB.

I met Rall through Zemke. They were good friends post war. Rall if anything under reported his kills, and I don't believe they ever intentionally left their wingman out to hang, they didn't have that sort of demeanor, nor did they have the aircraft to waste.

 

[Kruska]

No matter what the altitude was where you started, you ended up going down to the deck unless the defender decides to break it off and allow you to get your altitude back and it all starts over again.

Hmm... actually my Father and many others attacked in a steep forward angle from below - flying through the bomber formation and resting their climb around 1500m above the formation, and then speed home to Mama with no blinking Yanks following.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Attacking the Soviet-Union in 1941 was by far the Austrians biggest mistake - aside from Dunkirk.

I agree with your last statement

Hitler made a number of mistakes

Dunkirk was one

Not invading Britain was another

And another big mistake was declaring war on the US after Pearl Harbor

Not invading the UK wasn’t a mistake, Germany didn’t have the ability to do so. Germany lacked the doctrine for amphibious invasions, it lacked the navy to seize control of the channel and lacked the ability to seize aerial superiority. An invasion of the UK would have been an expensive failure that likely would have doomed Barbarossa to an early failure as well.

 

[AZrailwhale]

At that time Hitler was trying to avoid other Arian nations.



For the same reason the US avoided invading Japan.




I somewhat agreed with that statement except had Germany not declared war on the US right then, the Axis alliance would have been not worth the paper it was written on.

The treaty only obligated Germany to declare war if the USA attacked Japan or Italy. But the declaration had little real effect since FDR was already fighting an undeclared war against the Kriegsmarine with shoot on sight orders and escorting British convoys halfway across the Atlantic to spare RN escorts for other commitments.

 

[Kruska]

I met Rall through Zemke. They were good friends post war. Rall if anything under reported his kills, and I don't believe they ever intentionally left their wingman out to hang, they didn't have that sort of demeanor, nor did they have the aircraft to waste.

This is what Rall looked like when you met him?

 

[AZrailwhale]

Hmm... actually my Father and many others attacked in a steep forward angle from below - flying through the bomber formation and resting their climb around 1500m above the formation, and then speed home to Mama with no blinking Yanks following.

That’s why B-17Gs and B-24Js had powered twin fifty cal turrets added to their noses.

 

[Kruska]

...... Rall if anything under reported his kills, and I don't believe they ever intentionally left their wingman out to hang, they didn't have that sort of demeanor, nor did they have the aircraft to waste.

I wouldn't know about Rall, Steinhoff or Priller in this matter (since both were very close to my father) - but you would be very wrong in regards to other "Experten".

 

[Kruska]

That’s why B-17Gs and B-24Js had powered twin fifty cal turrets added to their noses.

Yep, but I don't believe that these had been effective - taking a climbing speed approach (combined ) of 800km/h and more.
You got any info in this regards?
AFAIK the Liberator had no under-nose weaponry unlike the B17G - and IIRC this armament was added in view of frontal attacks.
Which had an accumulated speed of 950km/h +!!