Did You Know? The First "Top Gun" Competition Was Held in 1949 at Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada. Wanna Take a Wild Guess as to Who Won It?

[DukeU]

And again, you are whining about an event that happened 75 years ago. The world was much different then. No one has claimed that injustices didn't happen. I stated that in an earlier post. Your insistence that somehow these airmen were superior due to their ethnicity highlights your bigotry. These were great men, and the fact that I heard about the Tuskegee Airmen 12 years after their competition, prior to the CRA of 1964, shoots holes in your contention that they were not recognized. They were Americans and your divisive posts that want to separate them based on ethnicity verifies my claims about you. I fought side by side with men of every ethnicity in Vietnam, and I can guarantee you, that no one much cared who the American was who was next to them, just that they were AMERICANS. Your patriotism stops at skin color.

 

[Concerned American]

They weren’t given ‘special programs’

You were. No, they weren't, neither was the Nisei regiment nor have they been as you were. Irish, Germans, Scottish, Cambodian, Chinese or multiple other ethnicities were not and are not given special programs, but you are still trying to justify those programs for ONE ethnicity. Those programs are contrary to equal treatment under the law. Equality means just that--EQUAL. Not equal plus special programs because of skin color based on bad treatment 75 years ago or more. If you don't want racism in America, quit practicing it.

 

[RoshawnMarkwees]

It’s interesting that you bring up ‘equal treatment under the law’ when the Tuskegee Airmen received anything but. They weren’t given ‘special programs’ or extra assistance—quite the opposite. They had to fight for the right to even fly, let alone compete.

And yet, despite unequal conditions, they still excelled and won—only to have that win erased. That’s not ‘whining,’ that’s history.

The fact that you’re upset about people finally acknowledging that truth—decades after the fact—says a lot about you. If fairness was truly your concern, you’d be just as outraged that their victory was stolen as you are about the programs you claim to oppose.

If you actually talk to blacks who lived in that era, they would tell you how happy they were and grateful to be Americans despite the ‘understood’ standards of segregation. But it doesn’t mean blacks were being hanged to death five times a week as you paint it. They had their schools and clubs and entertainment and were happy in it.
You’re conditioned by demagogues and race hustlers into spewing your own hate and racism.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

DEI did not exist in the 1940's hence the Tuskegee airmen were never helped by such a program....

.... therefore, the boogieman DEI doesn't do what the racists claim it does - provide jobs and other preferences to allegedly "unqualified Black people" thereby displacing "eminently more qualified white people".

And for the record Lt. Col. James H. Harvey was the pilot with the 332nd Fighter Group. He recounts the following:
"I applied for cadet training, I was accepted and went off to Bolling Field in the Washington DC area. There were nine whites and myself. Two of us passed....."

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

You were. No, they weren't, neither was the Nisei regiment nor have they been as you were. Irish, Germans, Scottish, Cambodian, Chinese or multiple other ethnicities were not and are not given special programs, but you are still trying to justify those programs for ONE ethnicity. Those programs are contrary to equal treatment under the law. Equality means just that--EQUAL. Not equal plus special programs because of skin color based on bad treatment 75 years ago or more. If you don't want racism in America, quit practicing it.

You’re conflating two separate things. Recognizing an injustice that happened does not equal asking for special treatment today. Acknowledging history isn’t the same as 'practicing racism.'

The Tuskegee Airmen didn’t receive ‘special programs’—they faced barriers that others didn’t. They had to fight for the right to serve, train, and compete. Even when they excelled, their achievements were erased.

You also seem to forget that government programs have existed for many groups throughout U.S. history—land grants, GI Bills, and business subsidies, all of which disproportionately benefited white Americans while excluding Black citizens. So if your issue is truly with 'special programs', then let’s be honest about who benefited most from them historically.

And since you’re so concerned about ‘special programs,’ let’s talk about reality. I’ve spent the last 25 years working in Washington State, where Initiative 200 (I-200) has prohibited racial preferences since 1998. That means there have been zero race-based preferences for hiring, education, or government contracts for over two decades. Yet, somehow, I still managed to have a career—without any ‘special treatment.’

So tell me—what exactly are you complaining about? Because if I can succeed in a state with no racial preferences, that pretty much obliterates your argument.

Let’s be real: This isn’t about fairness. It’s about keeping the playing field tilted and crying foul whenever Black excellence shines through without needing anyone’s permission.

 

[Grumpyolman]

I actually had the honor of talking to and shaking hands with a number of Tuskegee airmen at an airshow in the the early 2000s. The first thing that struck me was- these guys are really smart.
They took the best guys from Tuskegee and made them pilots. Worked out very well. They were true WWII heroes.
I also watched old white bomber pilots in their 80s walk up to them and shake their hands and thank them for their service, which was keeping German fighters from attacking the bombers.
It was a hell of a thing. Made me feel proud to be an American.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Shut up, fool!
If you actually talk to blacks who lived in that era, they would tell you how happy they were and grateful to be Americans despite the ‘understood’ standards of segregation. But it doesn’t mean blacks were being hanged to death five times a week as you paint it. They had their schools and clubs and entertainment and were happy in it.
You’re just a post-great society indoctrinated fool, conditioned by demagogues and race hustlers into spewing your own hate and racism.

I'm only going to tell you this once, you are not welcome on ANY of my threads. Your way of speaking to me is not acceptable so this is your notice to stay away from me, meaning don't address me directly and don't comment on any of my threads or responses. This is the only notice you will be receiving

 

[elektra]

I'm only going to tell you this once, you are not welcome on ANY of my threads. Your way of speaking to me is not acceptable so this is your notice to stay away from me, meaning don't address me directly and don't comment on any of my threads or responses. This is the only notice you will be receiving

Censorship

 

[Scoutster]

Kudos to them, they proved affirmative action is not required to succeed. Almost 100 years ago and they don’t need it now.

 

[IM2]

The OP in and if herself means it’s going to be a race thread and about black people specifically. Duh.
She’s an incredibly brainwashed/indoctrinated racist. And totally logic-challenged.
I’m surprised someone can write that well and still be that stupid.

And what does this have to do with the thread topic?

 

[IM2]

Kudos to them, they proved affirmative action is not required to succeed. Almost 100 years ago and they don’t need it now.

Whits like you need to shut up about things like affirmative action. You don't seem to understand that what you call Affirmative Action whites have ALWAYS got.

 

[Concerned American]

Acknowledging history isn’t the same as 'practicing racism.'

The fact that you only acknowledge the accomplishments of one race is absolutely practicing racism. Don't deny that you do it. A simple search of this very board verifies it. I haven't seen you speak of the accomplishments of the 442nd Nisei Regiment. They experienced the same type of treatment--possibly worse than the Tuskegee Airmen but you have never spoken of them. Why? Is it because they are not black? The fact that your world revolves around history of abuse that YOU NEVER EXPERIENCED shows that you live for racism because you practice it daily. Admit that you are a HUMAN BEING--no better or worse than any other human being and quit trying to benefit from the wrongs that were suffered by others before you were born. You'll be surprised that racism will cease to exist because you'll cease to practice it. Indeed, you may not create white racists that before your unjust accusations were not.

 

[Concerned American]

Because if I can succeed in a state with no racial preferences, that pretty much obliterates your argument.

Au contraire. It makes my argument. Why do you so vehemently try to justify DEI and AA? Seems if you truly didn't benefit from them, you wouldn't defend them. They are racist and nothing but. They should be abandoned immediately in the name of true equality.

 

[westwall]

Technically it was not a "Top Gun" since that label applies to the U.S. Navy competition.
Here's a more informative read;

In 1949 Tuskegee Airmen won the first ever USAF Weapons' Meet flying obsolete F-47 Thunderbolts. But their victory was hidden and the trophy stored at the USAF Museum for years.

In 1949 Tuskegee Airmen won the first ever United States Air Force Weapons' Meet flying obsolete F-47 Thunderbolts.

theaviationgeekclub.com

What's interesting about this is that POTUS Truman signed an Executive Order * ending segregation in the US military a year earlier;

Why Harry Truman Ended Segregation in the US Military in 1948 | HISTORY

Executive Order 9981, one of Truman's most important achievements, became a major catalyst for the civil rights movement.

www.history.com

BTW, the F-47(P-47) was obsolete only in an administrative sense, since as can be seen it was still an excellent combat aircraft at the time. As more P-51/F-51 became available, Air Groups transitioned to the 51. the 47 was still being used by Reserve units at the time.

And, in a gunnery competition the P-47 had an advantage because they mounted 8 AN-M2 Browning machine guns, as opposed to the 6 in the P-51. Additionally, the P-47 carried 2,800 rounds of ammunition, as opposed to the 1,840 rounds in the P-51. The P-47 was also heavier which translates to a more stable gun platform.

 

[RoshawnMarkwees]

I'm only going to tell you this once, you are not welcome on ANY of my threads. Your way of speaking to me is not acceptable so this is your notice to stay away from me, meaning don't address me directly and don't comment on any of my threads or responses. This is the only notice you will be receiving

You’re a phony. I don’t think you’re even black. I think you’re just a baiter.
You never answer analysis. You just spout more racist doctrine.
You earned ignore.

 

[Concerned American]

I’ve spent the last 25 years working in Washington State, where Initiative 200 (I-200) has prohibited racial preferences since 1998. That means there have been zero race-based preferences for hiring, education, or government contracts for over two decades. Yet, somehow, I still managed to have a career—without any ‘special treatment.’

Maybe you should educate the WA AG. Tell him that Affirmative Action doesn't exist in WA, because obviously he is unaware of it. So I am left with the impression that you purposely lied to advance your racist agenda or you are truly misinformed. In either case it isn't a good look for you.

Affirmative Action Plan | Washington State

The following are strategies that are continuing to be used to address recruitment and retention issues as they relate to underutilization in all job groups of the Office of the Attorney General. 1. Commitment to Diversity

www.atg.wa.gov

 

[Stryder50]

‘Top Gun’ as a pop culture term is commonly associated with the U.S. Navy’s Fighter Weapons School (established in 1969), but before that, the U.S. Air Force held its own air combat competitions. The 1949 U.S. Air Force Fighter Weapons Meet was exactly that—an elite aerial gunnery competition to determine the best fighter pilots.

Whether you call it ‘Top Gun’ or not doesn’t change the fact that the Tuskegee Airmen won and were denied proper recognition. Moving the goalposts won’t erase history

I'm not moving the goal posts, I'm defining them better than you have !
Not that with all your bluster you fail to provide and references or links to substantiate your claims or the real truths.
FWIW, many of us, especially in the aviation community, have know of the Red Tails almost from their beginning.

Here's one easy to find reference;
...

Postwar​

Various Tuskegee Airmen by a P-51 Mustang at Luke Field, around January or February 1946.

Contrary to negative predictions from some quarters, Tuskegee Airmen were some of the best pilots in the U.S. Army Air Forces due to a combination of pre-war experience and the personal drive of those accepted for training. Nevertheless, the Tuskegee Airmen continued to have to fight racism. Their combat record did much to quiet those directly involved with the group, but other units continued to harass these airmen.[97]

In 1949, the 332nd entered the annual U.S. Continental Gunnery Meet in Las Vegas, Nevada. The competition included shooting aerial and ground targets and dropping bombs on targets. Flying the long-range Republic P-47N Thunderbolt (built for the long-range escort mission in the Pacific theatre of World War II), the 332nd Fighter Wing took first place in the conventional fighter class. The pilots were Captain Alva Temple, Lts. Harry Stewart, Jr., James H. Harvey III and Halbert Alexander. Staff Sergeant Buford A. Johnson (30 August 1927 – 15 April 2017) served as the pilots' aircraft crew chief.[98] Lt. Harvey said, "We had a perfect score. Three missions, two bombs per plane. We didn't guess at anything, we were good."[99] They received congratulations from the governor of Ohio and Air Force commanders across the nation.[100]

After segregation in the military was ended in 1948 by President Harry S. Truman with Executive Order 9981, the veteran Tuskegee Airmen found themselves in high demand throughout the newly formed United States Air Force. Some taught in civilian flight schools, such as the black-owned Columbia Air Center in Maryland.[101] On 11 May 1949, Air Force Letter 35.3 mandated that black Airmen be screened for reassignment to formerly all-white units according to qualifications.[102]

Tuskegee Airmen were instrumental in postwar developments in aviation. Edward A. Gibbs, a civilian flight instructor who helped launch in the U.S. Aviation Cadet Program at Tuskegee,[103] later became the founder of Negro Airmen International, an association joined by many airmen. USAF General Daniel "Chappie" James Jr. (then Lt.) was an instructor of the 99th Pursuit Squadron and later a fighter pilot in Europe. In 1975, he became the first African-American to reach the rank of four-star general.[104] Post-war commander of the 99th Squadron Marion Rodgers went on to work in communications for NORAD and as a program developer for the Apollo 13 project.[105]
...

Tuskegee Airmen - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Scoutster]

Whits like you need to shut up about things like affirmative action. You don't seem to understand that what you call Affirmative Action whites have ALWAYS got.

 

[Stryder50]

EXCERPT;

Origins​

See also: Civilian Pilot Training Program

Background​

The P-51C Mustang flown by the Commemorative Air Force in the markings of the 302nd Fighter Squadron as a tribute to Lieutenant Colonel Lee Archer.
Tuskegee Airman P-51 Mustang taken at Airventure. This particular P-51C is part of the Red Tail ProjectThe Stearman Kaydet training aircraft used by the Tuskegee Airmen, bearing the name Spirit of TuskegeePortrait of Tuskegee airman Edward M. Thomas by photographer Toni Frissell, March 1945

Before the Tuskegee Airmen, no African American had been a U.S. military pilot. In 1917, African-American men had tried to become aerial observers but were rejected.[7] African-American Eugene Bullard served in the French air service during World War I because he was not allowed to serve in an American unit. Bullard returned to infantry duty with the French.[8]

The racially motivated rejections of World War I African-American recruits sparked more than two decades of advocacy by African Americans who wished to enlist and train as military aviators. The effort was led by such prominent civil rights leaders as Walter White of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP), labor union leader A. Philip Randolph, and Judge William H. Hastie. Finally, on 3 April 1939, Appropriations Bill Public Law 18 was passed by Congress containing an amendment by Senator Harry H. Schwartz designating funds for training African-American pilots. The War Department managed to put the money into funds of civilian flight schools that were willing to train black Americans.[7]

War Department tradition and policy mandated the segregation of African Americans into separate military units staffed by white officers, as had been done previously with the 9th Cavalry, 10th Cavalry, 24th Infantry Regiment and 25th Infantry regiments.

When the appropriation of funds for aviation training created opportunities for pilot cadets, their numbers diminished the rosters of these older units.[9] In 1941, the War Department and the Army Air Corps, under pressure — three months before its transformation into the USAAF — constituted the first all-black flying unit, the 99th Pursuit Squadron.[10]

Because of the restrictive nature of selection policies, the situation did not seem promising for African Americans, since in 1940 the U.S. Census Bureau reported there were only 124 African-American pilots in the nation.[11] The exclusionary policies failed dramatically when the Air Corps received an abundance of applications from men who qualified, even under the restrictive requirements. Many of the applicants had already participated in the Civilian Pilot Training Program, unveiled in late December 1938 (CPTP). Tuskegee University had participated since 1939.[12]
...

Tuskegee Airmen - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[IM2]

The fact that you only acknowledge the accomplishments of one race is absolutely practicing racism. Don't deny that you do it. A simple search of this very board verifies it. I haven't seen you speak of the accomplishments of the 442nd Nisei Regiment. They experienced the same type of treatment--possibly worse than the Tuskegee Airmen but you have never spoken of them. Why? Is it because they are not black? The fact that your world revolves around history of abuse that YOU NEVER EXPERIENCED shows that you live for racism because you practice it daily. Admit that you are a HUMAN BEING--no better or worse than any other human being and quit trying to benefit from the wrongs that were suffered by others before you were born. You'll be surprised that racism will cease to exist because you'll cease to practice it. Indeed, you may not create white racists that before your unjust accusations were not.

It's pathetic how whites like you try making up racism in others. And you racist scum need to stop trying that argument about what people didn't experience. You didn't fight in the Revolutionary War, but you'll celebrate July 4th. You never suffered the tyranny f a King but you bitches fight every day to make certain that America doesn't turn to whatever you say Britain was in the 1700s. So it's like this white man, if your punk ass doesn't like discussions about race, stay out f threads that make reference to things done by people who are not white r that mention the effects f 249 years of white racist American domestic policy.

Racism was started by whites here, when whites stop practicing racism, racism here wi end. YOU need t stop the racism bitch, because YOU haven't once entered a thread by whites making racist comments pertaining Woke, DEI, CRT, BM or whatever other black organization or individual the right wing media told you to hate. GFY white man.