Zone1 Mary's sinlessness

[Meriweather]

You take yourself too seriously

Grin.

 

[hadit]

Don't you believe the early Christians would have a better understanding than you on this subject?

I see nothing the compels me to believe Mary was sinless. That's the bottom line.

And why do you think the Bible addresses everything under the sun? It doesn't. According to your logic you can't believe God created the universe because the Bible doesn't explicitly state God created the universe. But we know God did based upon what we know of the universe and logic. It would be illogical that the universe existed independently from God.

The Bible makes it clear that Jesus created everything that was created. The universe would fall under that, so there's that...

Same goes for Mary. It would be illogical for the vessel that contained God to be impure.

Illogical? You could apply that to just about everyone that God ordains for a special calling. We see example after example of God calling people to do special things, only to fall into sin and lose it all. It's illogical for Him to do that. The true blessing is that He continues to use fallen, fallible people for His own purposes and no one has to be perfect for Him to call them.

 

[hadit]

I did not say she was prevented from sinning. I said being filled with God's grace overcame that inclination to sin. Since you believe being filled with grace means your sins are forgiven, you can't think it terms of not sinning at all. If you are ever to experience God's great love for a moment in this life, you will understand in that moment there is simply no room for sin. Being filled with God's grace means there is no room for sin.

Sure, "in that moment". I have experienced that. That can happen when all sin is forgiven, and a person is completely filled by the Holy Spirit. It does not mean that they were completely sinless before, it means in that moment they are cleansed, purified and full of grace.

 

[ding]

I see nothing the compels me to believe Mary was sinless. That's the bottom line.

The Bible makes it clear that Jesus created everything that was created. The universe would fall under that, so there's that...

Actually the Bible explicitly states God created the heavens and the earth. It makes no mention of the universe. So it seems to me you are selective about what you believe when the Bible is silent on it.

 

[ding]

Illogical? You could apply that to just about everyone that God ordains for a special calling. We see example after example of God calling people to do special things, only to fall into sin and lose it all. It's illogical for Him to do that. The true blessing is that He continues to use fallen, fallible people for His own purposes and no one has to be perfect for Him to call them.

Your logic is illogical. Maybe try to learn why the early Christians believed Mary was sinless.

 

[hadit]

Actually the Bible explicitly states God created the heavens and the earth. It makes no mention of the universe. So it seems to me you are selective about what you believe when the Bible is silent on it.

It says explicitly that Jesus created everything that was created, so unless you maintain the universe was not created, the Bible says that God created it. To believe He did not is, as you've said, illogical.

 

[ding]

It says explicitly that Jesus created everything that was created, so unless you maintain the universe was not created, the Bible says that God created it. To believe He did not is, as you've said, illogical.

So Jesus created gay sex? Jesus created pedophiles? Jesus created sin? Jesus created hate?

 

[hadit]

So Jesus created gay sex? Jesus created pedophiles? Jesus created sin? Jesus created hate?

Ah, yes, the old, "God created evil" gambit. Tell me, is there such a thing as dark? How about cold? Think about it.

 

[ding]

Ah, yes, the old, "God created evil" gambit. Tell me, is there such a thing as dark? How about cold? Think about it.

I have thought about it. A pedophile is a created material being with a genetic disposition. Your logic is screwed up. But you keep elevating the Bible to a God.

 

[hadit]

I have thought about it. A pedophile is a created material being with a genetic disposition. Your logic is screwed up. But you keep elevating the Bible to a God.

You didn't answer the questions. If you do, you will begin to understand where evil comes from.

 

[ding]

You didn't answer the questions. If you do, you will begin to understand where evil comes from.

I understand all that. You probably got it from me in the first place. Your logic is flawed. The vessel that contains God must be pure. That's sound logic. The early Christians believed Mary was without sin. The Bible is silent on it. You choose to make her a tramp.

 

[hadit]

I understand all that. You probably got it from me in the first place.

Nope, I've known it for a long time. Are you now acknowledging that God did not create sin?

Your logic is flawed. The vessel that contains God must be pure. That's sound logic.

That's your logic, but it's a human idea, not a Scriptural certainty. Mary herself said that she had a savior, something she would not have needed if she was sinless and pure.

The early Christians believed Mary was without sin. The Bible is silent on it. You choose to make her a tramp.

That's what you believe, that Mary was a tramp if she had sex with her husband? There is absolutely nothing sinful about Mary and Joseph having a robust, satisfying sex life that produced multiple children. Do you believe that sex is sinful? That's ridiculous and you should be ashamed.

 

[ding]

Nope, I've known it for a long time. Are you now acknowledging that God did not create sin?

That's your logic, but it's a human idea, not a Scriptural certainty. Mary herself said that she had a savior, something she would not have needed if she was sinless and pure.

That's what you believe, that Mary was a tramp if she had sex with her husband? There is absolutely nothing sinful about Mary and Joseph having a robust, satisfying sex life that produced multiple children. Do you believe that sex is sinful? That's ridiculous and you should be ashamed.

If you want to trash Mary, I'll let Jesus explain it to you. It's not like you will be able to say you weren't told different.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

If you want to trash Mary, I'll let Jesus explain it to you. It's not like you will be able to say you weren't told different.

Personally, I would never trash the victim. In this case, rape.

If she is to be believed, that is. Someone must have raped her, while she was unconscious.

 

[Meriweather]

Personally, I would never trash the victim. In this case, rape.

If she is to be believed, that is. Someone must have raped her, while she was unconscious.

The reality frightens you so badly you have to think rape? Consider that it happened just as she said.

 

[BreezeWood]

The reality frightens you so badly you have to think rape? Consider that it happened just as she said.

her claim was in the result ... and praised by the heavens.

they were not afraid of judaism or the liar moses and lived happily everafter ... jesus made himself their example.

 

[ding]

Personally, I would never trash the victim. In this case, rape.

If she is to be believed, that is. Someone must have raped her, while she was unconscious.

You trash everything you disagree with. It's your sour nature.

 

[hadit]

If you want to trash Mary, I'll let Jesus explain it to you. It's not like you will be able to say you weren't told different.

Think carefully about what you're saying. You are saying that a woman is a tramp if she has sex with her husband, in a marriage relationship blessed by God, in the structure that He designed and gave us. Why do you say it's "trashing" Mary to say she had sex with her husband when it's sacred between husband and wife?

Unbelievable. I wasn't going to ask this, but who told you sex in a marriage is sinful?

 

[ding]

Think carefully about what you're saying. You are saying that a woman is a tramp if she has sex with her husband, in a marriage relationship blessed by God, in the structure that He designed and gave us. Why do you say it's "trashing" Mary to say she had sex with her husband when it's sacred between husband and wife?

Unbelievable. I wasn't going to ask this, but who told you sex in a marriage is sinful?

I think you are the one who should be careful in his thoughts.

 

[Meriweather]

Think carefully about what you're saying. You are saying that a woman is a tramp if she has sex with her husband, in a marriage relationship blessed by God, in the structure that He designed and gave us. Why do you say it's "trashing" Mary to say she had sex with her husband when it's sacred between husband and wife?

Unbelievable. I wasn't going to ask this, but who told you sex in a marriage is sinful?

Consider the troubled times in which Mary and Joseph lived. There was a group, even those who were married, made a sacrifice, a vow of celibacy. Can we prove Mary and Joseph were a part of this group? No. But listen to what Mary said. "How can this be since I do not know man?" It seems she was aware of her vow and it follows a vow also made by Joseph. One does not break one's vow to God.

Another consideration: It was very unusual for a woman and a man to make such a vow. Imagine the talk/gossip...she remained a virgin...even when married..." That's newsworthy.

It's not trashing anyone to say a married couple engaged it sex. It's expected. What would be trashing someone is knowing s/he made a vow of celibacy to begin declaring--or even whispering--that it only makes sense they broke their vows to God.