Marriage's benefits R4 D kids, not the adults

[mattskramer]

Inherent from history....eons of history.

Let me explain it to you as simply as I can:

Inherent rights do not exist outside of human imagination. Tradition does not make something a right. It merely tells you what has happened in history. Nature does not tell you what is right or what a right is. It just tells you what is natural. Popularity does not tell you what is right. It merely tells you what is popular.

 

[nibor]

Haven't you noticed SE's one of those insane religious righters who believes in fire and brimstone and that G-d is going to strike down all of us heathens while he and his ilk get swept away in a pool of glory? In the meantime, though, he thinks its his G-d-given right to tell the rest of us what to do, because heaven forbid we all shouldn't live by his rules.




Yeah... when it comes to corporations, societal good, education, old people, sick people, poor people, then he wants government to be hands off.... but telling us who we can love, what we can do with our bodies, etc... then he's all for government intrusion.

Jillian SE probably believes as he does for the same reasons that YOU don't ever spell out the word GOD!!!!!!!!!

 

[jillian]

Jillian SE probably believes as he does for the same reasons that YOU don't ever spell out the word GOD!!!!!!!!!

Difference is, I don't spell out G-d because that's part of *my* religious beliefs. But I'm not trying to pass legislation preventing people who don't believe what I do from writing out the word G-d.

Capice?

 

[ScreamingEagle]

You did not answer the question: Give me your definition. What is an inherent right? You mention the word "history".

You used the word "history". Do you mean that an inherent right is a right stemming from traditional practice? If so than is it an inherent right to prohibit women from voting? Anyway, again, you are simply appealing to history.

I've already answered that and I've explained how marriage has existed in our society for a long, long (historical) time - no gay marriage allowed - this has worked well for mankind in general for many many moons.

Now you tell me where the "right" to gay marriage comes from.

And besides, what right do gays have in the first place to turn marriage on its head - an institution that has worked so well for mankind for so long? What selfish impertinence.

 

[nibor]

Difference is, I don't spell out G-d because that's part of *my* religious beliefs. But I'm not trying to pass legislation preventing people who don't believe what I do from writing out the word G-d.

Capice?

Oh I understand quite well and it isn't just your "belief", but by your LAW!

Which by the way in actuality HAVE been IMPOSED ON THE REST OF US..........................fortunately not to be enforced YET!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Haven't you noticed SE's one of those insane religious righters who believes in fire and brimstone and that G-d is going to strike down all of us heathens while he and his ilk get swept away in a pool of glory? In the meantime, though, he thinks its his G-d-given right to tell the rest of us what to do, because heaven forbid we all shouldn't live by his rules.

Yeah... when it comes to corporations, societal good, education, old people, sick people, poor people, then he wants government to be hands off.... but telling us who we can love, what we can do with our bodies, etc... then he's all for government intrusion.

Haven't you noticed how much a hate monger that jillian really is? She resorts to attacking the person - not the ideas.

Less government is good....unless the absence of government leads to evil... that's why we have rules and laws in the first place....or else society suffers.
Free market health care, etc. does not lead to evil...instead it leads to a better society.

 

[mattskramer]

I've already answered that and I've explained how marriage has existed in our society for a long, long (historical) time - no gay marriage allowed - this has worked well for mankind in general for many many moons.

Slavery worked pretty well too. Keeping women from voting worked pretty well too. If we could have only kept those loud Blacks and Women quiet.

Now you tell me where the "right" to gay marriage comes from.

The right to gay “marriage” comes from the same place as does the right to heterosexual marriage. Again, inherent rights are just inventions. They do not exist outside of imagination.

Throughout the eons, haven’t some people of the same gender found each other attractive, and commit to each other. I’m confident that it has happened at least once or twice.

And besides, what right do gays have in the first place to turn marriage on its head - an institution that has worked so well for mankind for so long? What selfish impertinence.

They are not turning marriage on its head. Terms and definitions change as understanding grows. As I said, many things have served mankind. That does not mean that such things should not change. How selfish is it for heterosexuals to prohibit gay couples from getting married. They certainly don’t advocate outlawing heterosexual marriage.

 

[midcan5]

I don't have time now, but I think that if one believes in morality, rights follow from that. Morality is fundamental to all humans who are mentally capable. And there are basic rights such as the right to life. If rights exist they must consist of something.

 

[jillian]

Haven't you noticed how much a hate monger that jillian really is? She resorts to attacking the person - not the ideas.

Less government is good....unless the absence of government leads to evil... that's why we have rules and laws in the first place....or else society suffers.
Free market health care, etc. does not lead to evil...instead it leads to a better society.

Sorry... but it's not just your ideas that are sick.

And, in case no one's ever told you, it's not hate-mongering to call hateful people what they are.

I'm cool with it.

And you're still a nutcase, so it's all good.

 

[mattskramer]

Free market health care, etc. does not lead to evil...instead it leads to a better society.

Yet, according to you, letting adults subscribe to “Playboy” leads to the evil destruction of society.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Slavery worked pretty well too. Keeping women from voting worked pretty well too. If we could have only kept those loud Blacks and Women quiet.

Nothing is perfect.

The right to gay “marriage” comes from the same place as does the right to heterosexual marriage. Again, inherent rights are just inventions. They do not exist outside of imagination.

No it doesn't. Gay marriage has not existed before in our society.

Throughout the eons, haven’t some people of the same gender found each other attractive, and commit to each other. I’m confident that it has happened at least once or twice.

So? It has never been condoned by society.

They are not turning marriage on its head. Terms and definitions change as understanding grows. As I said, many things have served mankind. That does not mean that such things should not change. How selfish is it for heterosexuals to prohibit gay couples from getting married. They certainly don’t advocate outlawing heterosexual marriage.

Yes they are. Terms and definitions are changing at high speed as all sorts of nuances of "gay marriage" appear. Think "polyamory".

Yet, according to you, letting adults subscribe to “Playboy” leads to the evil destruction of society.

Hey, it already has my friend.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Sorry... but it's not just your ideas that are sick.

And, in case no one's ever told you, it's not hate-mongering to call hateful people what they are.

I'm cool with it.

And you're still a nutcase, so it's all good.

Typical liberal broad.

 

[Taomon]

"Archaic beliefs"? Hah! Most Americans TODAY do not want gay marriage.

They do not want gay marriage based on what? Archaic beliefs. And I hate to be the one to inform you but, most Americans do not oppose gay marriage, most Americans are moderate and know that gay marriage does not affect their lives.

Prostitution is also "as old as human existence". That doesn't give it any "right" to exist either.

Exactly, and that was the basis of your argument brainiac. Thank you for making my point valid.

Sure I've seen her…fat ass and all. But seeing as you're a liberal, where do you get off being discriminatory like that?

I'm not asking for a Chinese legal brief. However, they are a SECULAR society.....same as you libs want here in America. So, being a secular society with NO Christians, they STILL don't allow nudes in the streets. Perhaps the choice to not allow public nudity has nothing specific to do with the Christian religion after all?

You mean the recent FCC bill signed by Bush? A fine bill….a step in the right direction to protect the general public - and especially our children - against indecent words and nude exposure. Pretty much the same as protecting the public from people walking down the street naked.

I forgot that as a liberal I am not allowed to make a joke.

Chinese may be a secular society, but I have news for you...so is America. We do not allow nudity because we have puritanical social codes. I don't know about the Chinese and I already stated that.

And an indecency Bill is oppressive and is an affront to our freedom of speech. You want to protect children from nudity and bad language then educate them. Nudity is not bad and anyone who says it is (like you) is denying the works of the God that they claim to worship.

Bad language is nothing more than that...language. How does language harm you?

 

[Taomon]

So I take it you admit that gay marriage is not an inherent right?

You're at least right that "people can imagine whatever inherent rights they want to create".....obviously that's what the gays are doing....

Either you believe in inherent rigts or not moron. You just posted five times that homosexuals do not have an inherent right to marry but heterosexuals do.

Apparently you do not have an argument - you are just being argumentative.

 

[Ravi]

No right to any kind of marriage? Sure thing bro...tell that to society at large....for the past ten eons or so...

Get real.

Now you're just being silly. Just because something is taken for granted doesn't mean it is a right.

 

[mattskramer]

Nothing is perfect.

Well? That sort of defeats your argument, doesn’t it. Just because something has a history - a tradition – does not mean that it should continue as it has.

No it doesn't. Gay marriage has not existed before in our society.

Oh well. It was somewhat of an irrelevant comment but I’ll continue it as a side note. First of all, it depends on how you define marriage. Consider one of dictionary.com’s definitions: a relationship in which two people have pledged themselves to each other in the manner of a husband and wife, without legal sanction: trial marriage; homosexual marriage

Do you still contend that two people of the same gender in America from eons ago never made such a commitment to each other?

Secondly, why do you limit it to “our society”? Consider the world at large. Surely people of the same sex have gotten married in that sense.

So? It has never been condoned by society.

So. Several things that I do might not be condoned by society. As I explained, that which is popular or unpopular is not necessarily right or wrong.

Yes they are. Terms and definitions are changing at high speed as all sorts of nuances of "gay marriage" appear. Think "polyamory".

I agree. All sorts of words change and develop additional or subtly different meanings. That is not the same as saying that people are turning marriage on its head. “Marriage” does not have a head.

See http://www.langmaker.com/ml0104.htm

Hey, it already has my friend.

I guess that we have clear disagreement here.
Pornographic magazines are not destroying America.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Ravir & Taomon: Heterosexual marriage is an inherent right because it has been an accepted practice for eons. That's basically how common law was formed. Gay marriage by and large has not been an accepted practice. Same goes for prostitution. Why do you think some things have historically been accepted in society and some things have not been accepted? Think about it.

Gay marriage and prostitution are things that harm society. That is why over many, many, many years they have been rejected time and time again. Do you think today is the first time that the question of gay marriage ever came up in this world? So why should we do something that we know is not good for society?

And btw Taomon, perhaps in your perverted little slice of the world "most people do not oppose gay marriage" but if you could lift your head enough to look around at the real world you will find out that the majority of Americans do NOT support gay marriage. Only 28% favor gay marriage. (I'm sure that percentage is far less in most other countries of the world) That is not to say that Americans don't have concern for gays. However, 60% actually favor a constitutional amendment to limit marriage to only between a man and a woman.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/28/opinion/polls/main620258.shtml

Again I ask, where did the "right" to gay marriage come from?

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Well? That sort of defeats your argument, doesn’t it. Just because something has a history - a tradition – does not mean that it should continue as it has.

Doesn't defeat the argument at all….in fact it supports it….history and tradition can be powerfully good things….full of hidden reasons….and many good reasons that time has probably long ago erased.

Oh well. It was somewhat of an irrelevant comment but I’ll continue it as a side note. First of all, it depends on how you define marriage. Consider one of dictionary.com’s definitions: a relationship in which two people have pledged themselves to each other in the manner of a husband and wife, without legal sanction: trial marriage; homosexual marriage

Do you still contend that two people of the same gender in America from eons ago never made such a commitment to each other?

Secondly, why do you limit it to “our society”? Consider the world at large. Surely people of the same sex have gotten married in that sense.

Great, let's keep it a side note, I don't want to get into a "dictionary debate".

Like I said before, I'm sure there have been same gender commitments that have worked out splendidly for them…..but not for society as a whole.

Consider the world at large? The majority of the world rejects gay marriage and always has.

So. Several things that I do might not be condoned by society. As I explained, that which is popular or unpopular is not necessarily right or wrong.

So? I'm sure there are many things people do that are not condoned by society….and I agree that popularity does not necessarily equate to right or wrong.

I agree. All sorts of words change and develop additional or subtly different meanings. That is not the same as saying that people are turning marriage on its head. “Marriage” does not have a head.

OK, at least probably not in a lesbian marriage...

I guess that we have clear disagreement here.
Pornographic magazines are not destroying America.

They have a big part in it….pornography destroys marriages....broken marriages destroy families....that destroys America.

 

[mattskramer]

Doesn't defeat the argument at all….in fact it supports it….history and tradition can be powerfully good things….full of hidden reasons….and many good reasons that time has probably long ago erased.

Again, you are simply committing the fallacy of appealing to tradition. If marriage should remain as it is for the sake of history, why shouldn’t slavery have remained as well?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition

Like I said before, I'm sure there have been same gender commitments that have worked out splendidly for them…..but not for society as a whole.

As you said, formal gay marriages recognized by America has never been tried. Who is to say that it won't work in America?

They have a big part in it….pornography destroys marriages....broken marriages destroy families....that destroys America.

Pornography does not destroy marriages any more than guns destroy people. Each is an inanimate object. Pornography does not even give paper cuts unless I handle the paper poorly. People destroy marriages when there is a lack of agreement and understanding within the relationship. I have some pornography. My wife knows about it. She and I have even sat down together and read and looked at it. We are okay with it. Individuals should ultimately be responsible for their own actions. They don’t need government to be their babysitter.

 

[mattskramer]

Ravir & Taomon: Heterosexual marriage is an inherent right because it has been an accepted practice for eons. That's basically how common law was formed. Gay marriage by and large has not been an accepted practice. Same goes for prostitution. Why do you think some things have historically been accepted in society and some things have not been accepted? Think about it.

Gay marriage and prostitution are things that harm society. That is why over many, many, many years they have been rejected time and time again. Do you think today is the first time that the question of gay marriage ever came up in this world? So why should we do something that we know is not good for society?

And btw Taomon, perhaps in your perverted little slice of the world "most people do not oppose gay marriage" but if you could lift your head enough to look around at the real world you will find out that the majority of Americans do NOT support gay marriage. Only 28% favor gay marriage. (I'm sure that percentage is far less in most other countries of the world) That is not to say that Americans don't have concern for gays. However, 60% actually favor a constitutional amendment to limit marriage to only between a man and a woman.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/28/opinion/polls/main620258.shtml

Again I ask, where did the "right" to gay marriage come from?

Hey. I'm willing to compromise. What is your position on civil unions. Must people support it. Therefore, by your own reasoning, it must be okay.

http://abcnews.go.com/PollingUnit/story?id=3834625&page=1

A record number of Americans in the latest ABC News/Washington Post poll support civil unions for gay couples, and most continue to favor legal abortion -- while behind those majority views sharp political and ideological divisions rage on.