Making Gasoline/Diesel More Afforedable

[itfitzme]

......if the Oil Companies are or are not conspiring to keep prices at certain levels, but the price of Crude is set based on the "Speculators." The reason most prices rise in the Energy Industry is because of the "Futures Market," and the price speculation that goes on there, or, at least that is what I am told.

Now, Big Oil may well be part of the problem, and probably are, but the real 800 pound gorilla in the room is the Futures Market as I understand it........could be wrong though.

The thing is, most people hate Big Oil and want to replace it with another renewable energy source such as Bio-Diesel, Wind, Solar, Coal, Natural Gas...........whatever.......and they don't consider that IF this happened, then there would just be......

Big Bio-Diesel Corporations such as Big Corn and such......
Big Wind Corporations.........(uh, no, wait, Tacco Bell's got that covered)
Big Coal..............

Getting rid of Big Oil will only create another "Big..........." will it not?

Seems to me the best approach is "all of the above," but that isn't going to happen because of the Special Interest Groups on both sides of the Political landscape.......

Thats right. That list of margins is missing futures. I have not seen them but have read that there are literally oil tankers that are sitting off coast holding oil until prices rise. That may be. I haven't seen anything that coukd be taken as evidentiary data. Maybe they are there, maybe it's in storage tanks. Maybe it is simply futures contracts that put upwward pressure on prices. Maybe it is not enough to be significant.

Never the less, the more companies that compete for sales, the closer prices get to the ideal free market equilibrium prices.

Some one pointed out the profits. The simple thing is that in a perfectly competative ideal market with no barriers to entry, no economies of scale, and dozens of competitors, there are no profits because if there are then someone either lowers theirp price to increase sales and increase their profit, causing a wave of competitive price reduction until price equals price.

The fact that profit exists demonstrates that it isn't an ideal free market.

The more companies that are competing, the closer it gets to an ideal free market.

 

[KissMy]

All of your ethanol talking points come from a few manipulated oil industry funded studies. They have been laughed at by the scientific community. Yet you idiots repeat them like they are fact because the media pounded it into your head.

Corn Ethanol creates more food than Corn alone does. For that reason alone it is a winner. Corn is fed to livestock. Livestock evolved as foragers, not raw corn eaters. Animals eating corn emit methane gas & pass most of the nourishment of the corn out into manure that emits methane & pollutes water. Methane is 15 times worse on the environment as CO2. Ethanol plants grind, cook & use enzymes to breakdown corn into energy & protein. Ethanol plants turn all the starch in corn that animals emit into the atmosphere as methane, into Ethanol before feeding it. The Corn Ethanol Plant by-product is DDG livestock feed that grows animals 33% faster than corn or grass does. The fact is if you are in livestock production, you can not be competitive unless you are feeding Ethanol DDG Feed! Also ethanol plants run on waste heat from power plants & steel mills. They do not consume raw energy to generate Ethanol. The real EROEI for Corn Ethanol is 3 to 1 which is higher than Oil from Canada's Tar Sands.

Steel refineries waste heat create steam that spins a turbine that generates electricity that powers the grid & ethanol plant. The exhaust from the steam turbine heats the mash at the ethanol plant. The waste heat from the ethanol plant heats greenhouses that grow food. The ethanol mash is only heated for fermentation & no longer heated to a boil to distill it. Ethanol is evacuated from the mash.

The Broin plant I was involved with years ago before it became Poet Ethanol was built next to a Natural Gas Turbine Power plant. The waste heat from the Power plants NG Turbine went to a boiler & made steam to power a steam turbine that generated power for the grid & power plant. The heat from boiler vent stack & exhausted steam from turbine heated the mash for fermentation & ethanol was evacuated from the mash. Heat from the mash heated buildings.

Here are some more facts:

The useful life of engines is significantly reduced by ethanol.

The total cost of producing ethonal is greater than the benefit to consumers

Brazilian ethanol can be produced, shipped to and sold in any US port on the south or Atlantic coast cheaper than American made ethanol can be manufactured and shipped to east and south coast ports.

Did I mention that EVERY. SINGLE. WORD. of my original post is accurate including noting which bobbleheaded scum did the most for corporate welfare for ADM and now dozens more corporate parasites.

Pure Bullshit!

- The US produces corn ethanol cheaper & in higher volume than any country on the planet including Brazil & their sugar cane ethanol.

- Because the US produces ethanol cheaper, we are the worlds largest ethanol exporter. We do not import ethanol from Brazil, we export ethanol to Brazil. Exports of ethanol to Brazil made up more than one-third of the 1.2 billion gallons the U.S. exported in 2011.

- Ethanol extends engine life. All gas for the last 10+ years has ethanol in it. Because of this ethanol todays vehicles go many times further than they did pre-ethanol. We have a fleet of 20 different gas vehicles that are not "Flex Fuel" ready & we have been running them all on E85 for over 10 years now with no problems other than the lean O2 service light comes on which means nothing. Every vehicle has gone nearly 200,000 miles before we sold them & they still ran fine. Never ate seals on any of them.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEZuVfAAK_I"]Non Flex Tahoe Runs 100,000 miles on E85[/ame]

 

[KissMy]

You have a point at the US put a tax on Brazil sugar cane ethanol see one of my post links...and thanks to kiss my...poster....lol I so forgot about corn used in cattle feed.

The tax on Brazil ethanol was in defense of Brazil's tax on US ethanol. It had nothing to do with corn ethanol not being competitive. The US exports ethanol to Brazil. We do not import ethanol from Brazil because their price is to high. Exports of ethanol to Brazil made up more than one-third of the 1.2 billion gallons the U.S. exported in 2011.

 

[Wyatt earp]

I would like to see the link on four cycle motors wearing out faster on ethanol, yea its water based, so it could be common sense? Idk.... know if thats true though because even on E85 you still have oil based gas in it at 15%... Two cycle motors and especially marine two stroke and four stroke motors? that stuff is bad news.

 

[Wyatt earp]

You have a point at the US put a tax on Brazil sugar cane ethanol see one of my post links...and thanks to kiss my...poster....lol I so forgot about corn used in cattle feed.

The tax on Brazil ethanol was in defense of Brazil's tax on US ethanol. It had nothing to do with corn ethanol not being competitive. The US exports ethanol to Brazil. We do not import ethanol from Brazil because their price is to high.

Note, dont look at me as the bad guy here..... let me look it up.

 

[bornright]

Cap regular unleaded and diesel prices to 40 cents above taxes at the pump nationwide.

The 70's and price controls? heck no...

Big oil is a monopoly. There's only one way to effectively control a monopoly. Regulate the shit out of them.

Are you saying the fuel alternatives pushed so strongly for by Obama's administration are just talk? A lot of our money has gone in to prop these companies up. Competition is what we need. What you seek would put us all a foot. The oil companies could wait us out until we threw Obama or whoever else came up with such an idea out on their ear.

 

[Wyatt earp]

guess you are right thanks....
CARD: Biofuel Taxes, Subsidies, and Mandates: Impacts on US and Brazilian Markets

The biodiesel tax credit increases the competitiveness of US biodiesel relative to sugarcane ethanol. Thus, biodiesel production will likely exceed levels needed to meet the biomass-based diesel mandate and will result in lower imports of sugarcane ethanol. The decline in Brazilian ethanol exports decreases Brazilian domestic demand for imported US corn ethanol so the extent of two-way trade in ethanol is reduced under the tax credit

 

[Wyatt earp]

So curious why did Brazil need the US corn ethanol import in the first place if the Brazil sugar cane ethanol was enough to fill domestic demand and to export it as a poster suggests?

 

[OnePercenter]

You're an idiot.

You have three companies that control 95% of the gasoline sold in the US and they sell it at or about the same price. It's called a monopoly of perfect competition.

So how do you control a monopoly?

With a Supreme Court decision based on anti-trust laws. So how do you propose to file an ant-trust law against three seperate companies that are not explicitly conspiring?

(BTW, I am pretty sure it isn't called "a monopoly of perfect-competition". I know what you mean and it is a perfectly good synthesis of words. But you know how lawyers, politicians, economists, and many others are. If you don't use the right words, they just don't understand...)

I never stated that the oil companies broke any laws, although, when anti-trust is meantioned, oil companies are the first I think of.

 

[OnePercenter]

......if the Oil Companies are or are not conspiring to keep prices at certain levels, but the price of Crude is set based on the "Speculators." The reason most prices rise in the Energy Industry is because of the "Futures Market," and the price speculation that goes on there, or, at least that is what I am told.

Now, Big Oil may well be part of the problem, and probably are, but the real 800 pound gorilla in the room is the Futures Market as I understand it........could be wrong though.

The thing is, most people hate Big Oil and want to replace it with another renewable energy source such as Bio-Diesel, Wind, Solar, Coal, Natural Gas...........whatever.......and they don't consider that IF this happened, then there would just be......

Big Bio-Diesel Corporations such as Big Corn and such......
Big Wind Corporations.........(uh, no, wait, Tacco Bell's got that covered)
Big Coal..............

Getting rid of Big Oil will only create another "Big..........." will it not?

Seems to me the best approach is "all of the above," but that isn't going to happen because of the Special Interest Groups on both sides of the Political landscape.......

Two things can be influenced with a thought; your Richard, and the futures market.

Big oil is every bit as culpable as the rest of the futures gamblers.

 

[OnePercenter]

Cap regular unleaded and diesel prices to 40 cents above taxes at the pump nationwide.

Since taxes are by far the largest factor in gasoline and diesel prices next to the actual cost of crude oil why don't we cut them instead.

Manipulations in the futures market is the largest factor in gasoline and diesel prices.

 

[OnePercenter]

The 70's and price controls? heck no...

Big oil is a monopoly. There's only one way to effectively control a monopoly. Regulate the shit out of them.

Are you saying the fuel alternatives pushed so strongly for by Obama's administration are just talk? A lot of our money has gone in to prop these companies up. Competition is what we need. What you seek would put us all a foot. The oil companies could wait us out until we threw Obama or whoever else came up with such an idea out on their ear.

The year was 2005.

 

[itfitzme]

You have three companies that control 95% of the gasoline sold in the US and they sell it at or about the same price. It's called a monopoly of perfect competition.

So how do you control a monopoly?

With a Supreme Court decision based on anti-trust laws. So how do you propose to file an ant-trust law against three seperate companies that are not explicitly conspiring?

(BTW, I am pretty sure it isn't called "a monopoly of perfect-competition". I know what you mean and it is a perfectly good synthesis of words. But you know how lawyers, politicians, economists, and many others are. If you don't use the right words, they just don't understand...)

I never stated that the oil companies broke any laws, although, when anti-trust is meantioned, oil companies are the first I think of.

I'm not saying that you said that. We are in total agreement that the fossil fuel market has the greatest market leverage of all markets. We agree that the fossil fuel companies profits prove that the market is not the theoretical ideal free market.

They are not a monopoly though, to which anti-trust law would apply. They aren't a cartel, at least not that we know. They are not explicitly in collusion.

If they were a monopoly then it seems that the PUC thing applies.

So, then, what would be the basis for forcing market management? Under what authority? How should it be managed? If the issue were presented to economists, politicians, and the court, how shouldnit be worded? How about to the voters? Swing voters? The general public? Left wing liberals? Moderate conservatives?

Obviously, price controls are non-functional.

 

[itfitzme]

Cap regular unleaded and diesel prices to 40 cents above taxes at the pump nationwide.

Since taxes are by far the largest factor in gasoline and diesel prices next to the actual cost of crude oil why don't we cut them instead.

Manipulations in the futures market is the largest factor in gasoline and diesel prices.

But the idea is that it saves product for future consumption when it will be in higher demand, right?

 

[Mr. H.]

If gasoline/diesel fuels were not "affordable" for the geophysicists that searched for, the companies that drilled for or produced or stored or transported or refined or again transported and then finally marketed.... then you sorry fucks wouldn't have any would you?

 

[Pogo]

All of your ethanol talking points come from a few manipulated oil industry funded studies. They have been laughed at by the scientific community. Yet you idiots repeat them like they are fact because the media pounded it into your head.

Corn Ethanol creates more food than Corn alone does. For that reason alone it is a winner. Corn is fed to livestock. Livestock evolved as foragers, not raw corn eaters. Animals eating corn emit methane gas & pass most of the nourishment of the corn out into manure that emits methane & pollutes water. Methane is 15 times worse on the environment as CO2. Ethanol plants grind, cook & use enzymes to breakdown corn into energy & protein. Ethanol plants turn all the starch in corn that animals emit into the atmosphere as methane, into Ethanol before feeding it. The Corn Ethanol Plant by-product is DDG livestock feed that grows animals 33% faster than corn or grass does. The fact is if you are in livestock production, you can not be competitive unless you are feeding Ethanol DDG Feed! Also ethanol plants run on waste heat from power plants & steel mills. They do not consume raw energy to generate Ethanol. The real EROEI for Corn Ethanol is 3 to 1 which is higher than Oil from Canada's Tar Sands.

Steel refineries waste heat create steam that spins a turbine that generates electricity that powers the grid & ethanol plant. The exhaust from the steam turbine heats the mash at the ethanol plant. The waste heat from the ethanol plant heats greenhouses that grow food. The ethanol mash is only heated for fermentation & no longer heated to a boil to distill it. Ethanol is evacuated from the mash.

The Broin plant I was involved with years ago before it became Poet Ethanol was built next to a Natural Gas Turbine Power plant. The waste heat from the Power plants NG Turbine went to a boiler & made steam to power a steam turbine that generated power for the grid & power plant. The heat from boiler vent stack & exhausted steam from turbine heated the mash for fermentation & ethanol was evacuated from the mash. Heat from the mash heated buildings.

Here are some more facts:

The useful life of engines is significantly reduced by ethanol.

The total cost of producing ethonal is greater than the benefit to consumers

Brazilian ethanol can be produced, shipped to and sold in any US port on the south or Atlantic coast cheaper than American made ethanol can be manufactured and shipped to east and south coast ports.

Did I mention that EVERY. SINGLE. WORD. of my original post is accurate including noting which bobbleheaded scum did the most for corporate welfare for ADM and now dozens more corporate parasites.

Pure Bullshit!

- The US produces corn ethanol cheaper & in higher volume than any country on the planet including Brazil & their sugar cane ethanol.

- Because the US produces ethanol cheaper, we are the worlds largest ethanol exporter. We do not import ethanol from Brazil, we export ethanol to Brazil. Exports of ethanol to Brazil made up more than one-third of the 1.2 billion gallons the U.S. exported in 2011.

- Ethanol extends engine life. All gas for the last 10+ years has ethanol in it. Because of this ethanol todays vehicles go many times further than they did pre-ethanol. We have a fleet of 20 different gas vehicles that are not "Flex Fuel" ready & we have been running them all on E85 for over 10 years now with no problems other than the lean O2 service light comes on which means nothing. Every vehicle has gone nearly 200,000 miles before we sold them & they still ran fine. Never ate seals on any of them.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEZuVfAAK_I"]Non Flex Tahoe Runs 100,000 miles on E85[/ame]

Not true. I haven't used anything but pure gas in my Saturn for at least four years, and when I did have to use E10 it was only because I had to go deep into Florida. And it's got over twice your 200k. Hell, it had more than 200 when I bought it. And to this day there's not a drop of ethanol in it.

List of ethanol-free gas stations

And I avoid the ethanol because if I don't, my mileage drops 15 to 20 percent -- more than the proportion of ethanol in E10, so I actually use more oil.

YMMV.

 

[edthecynic]

With a Supreme Court decision based on anti-trust laws. So how do you propose to file an ant-trust law against three seperate companies that are not explicitly conspiring?

(BTW, I am pretty sure it isn't called "a monopoly of perfect-competition". I know what you mean and it is a perfectly good synthesis of words. But you know how lawyers, politicians, economists, and many others are. If you don't use the right words, they just don't understand...)

I never stated that the oil companies broke any laws, although, when anti-trust is meantioned, oil companies are the first I think of.

I'm not saying that you said that. We are in total agreement that the fossil fuel market has the greatest market leverage of all markets. We agree that the fossil fuel companies profits prove that the market is not the theoretical ideal free market.

They are not a monopoly though, to which anti-trust law would apply. They aren't a cartel, at least not that we know. They are not explicitly in collusion.

If they were a monopoly then it seems that the PUC thing applies.

So, then, what would be the basis for forcing market management? Under what authority? How should it be managed? If the issue were presented to economists, politicians, and the court, how shouldnit be worded? How about to the voters? Swing voters? The general public? Left wing liberals? Moderate conservatives?

Obviously, price controls are non-functional.

Big Oil IS a monopoly controlled through banks which are immune to anti-trust laws. That is why Rockefeller switched his control of his oil monopoly from the Standard Oil holding company to Equitable Trust Company/Chase National Bank/Chase Manhattan Bank/J P Morgan Chase.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Big oil is a monopoly. There's only one way to effectively control a monopoly. Regulate the shit out of them.

Are you saying the fuel alternatives pushed so strongly for by Obama's administration are just talk? A lot of our money has gone in to prop these companies up. Competition is what we need. What you seek would put us all a foot. The oil companies could wait us out until we threw Obama or whoever else came up with such an idea out on their ear.

The year was 2005.

Whatever? lol ....

 

[JWBooth]

Cap regular unleaded and diesel prices to 40 cents above taxes at the pump nationwide.

and guarantee limited availability.

Price controls have never failed to create shortages.

Make it more affordable?
Drop all the mandated mixtures, kill the alcohol requirements and reduce the taxes.

 

[zeke]

......if the Oil Companies are or are not conspiring to keep prices at certain levels, but the price of Crude is set based on the "Speculators." The reason most prices rise in the Energy Industry is because of the "Futures Market," and the price speculation that goes on there, or, at least that is what I am told.Now, Big Oil may well be part of the problem, and probably are, but the real 800 pound gorilla in the room is the Futures Market as I understand it........could be wrong though.

The thing is, most people hate Big Oil and want to replace it with another renewable energy source such as Bio-Diesel, Wind, Solar, Coal, Natural Gas...........whatever.......and they don't consider that IF this happened, then there would just be......

Big Bio-Diesel Corporations such as Big Corn and such......
Big Wind Corporations.........(uh, no, wait, Tacco Bell's got that covered)
Big Coal..............

Getting rid of Big Oil will only create another "Big..........." will it not?

Seems to me the best approach is "all of the above," but that isn't going to happen because of the Special Interest Groups on both sides of the Political landscape.......

I've been making this point for years. The futures market is making bets on what the price of a barrell of oil MAY be at a point in the near future. But the oil retailers get to price thier retail sales for today based on what the product cost could or may be IN THE FUTURE.

What a great way to run a business. Make money on the up side and make money on the down side. Record profits.

But I would bet that the traders on the futures market represent the major oil companies from around the world.

What a racket.