Looks Like Most Americans Have No Problem With NSA/Phone Record Program

[JOKER96BRAVO]

And how do you defeat tyranny with guns when the government has the military?

The military IS the people. Most fight to protect our great nation, and \
would have no problem defending this (IMO).

 

[jillian]

I wonder how long Hitlers list of Jews was?

No, it's not the same thing, but ya get the point. I hope.

Hitler's Enabling Act

On March 23, 1933, the newly elected members of the German Parliament (the Reichstag) met in the Kroll Opera House in Berlin to consider passing Hitler's Enabling Act. It was officially called the 'Law for Removing the Distress of the People and the Reich.' If passed, it would effectively mean the end of democracy in Germany and establish the legal dictatorship of Adolf Hitler.

The 'distress' had been secretly caused by the Nazis themselves in order to create a crisis atmosphere that would make the law seem necessary to restore order. On February 27, 1933, they had burned the Reichstag building, seat of the German government, causing panic and outrage. The Nazis successfully blamed the fire on the Communists and claimed it marked the beginning of a widespread uprising.

On the day of the vote, Nazi storm troopers gathered in a show of force around the opera house chanting, "Full powers - or else! We want the bill - or fire and murder!!" They also stood inside in the hallways, and even lined the aisles where the vote would take place, glaring menacingly at anyone who might oppose Hitler's will.

Just before the vote, Hitler made a speech to the Reichstag in which he pledged to use restraint.

"The government will make use of these powers only insofar as they are essential for carrying out vitally necessary measures...The number of cases in which an internal necessity exists for having recourse to such a law is in itself a limited one." - Hitler told the Reichstag.

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/timeline/enabling.htm

*Edit* And btw, Hitler also had everyone's info on little IBM punchcards...that's how he knew who got yellow stars, who got pink stars, etc., as well as where to find people.

So there ya go.

Laterz!

 

[insein]

The military IS the people. Most fight to protect our great nation, and \
would have no problem defending this (IMO).

But the military has to obey its superiors. If the superiors declare a group of rebeling citizens as traitors and terrorists, how will the individuals fighting be able to disobey their orders?

 

[Mr. P]

...
Until then, I'll choose to let them see my phone bill.

This really has nothing to do with your phone bill.
It's way beyond that.

 

[Abbey Normal]

And I can't imagine living with a greater fear of terrorists, which as Insein said, will never affect most of us, than the destruction of what this country stands for from the inside.

No offense to Insein, but I doubt he has a crystal ball.

So gathering phone lists is no less than "destruction of what this country stands for", huh? That's some high-level hyperbole there, ma'am.

Like I said, faux hysteria. And as the thread title states, most Americans aren't buying into it. Common sense usually will prevail, thank God.

We have seen so many politically-driven attempts to make Bush look bad, and one-by-one, they fall away into the oblivion from whence they came. Memogate, anyone? Next.

 

[JOKER96BRAVO]

You have no right to bear arms when the government arrests you for possessing a fire arm without a permit. What then? Government has disarmed you and made you a criminal for trying to enforce your 2nd ammendment rights. How are you going to stop them?

The right to bear arms was not established so you could simply own weapons.
It was intended to do just what you said, allow the people to take up arms
against the government in the event that they attempt to take our rights
away.

 

[JOKER96BRAVO]

But the military has to obey its superiors. If the superiors declare a group of rebeling citizens as traitors and terrorists, how will the individuals fighting be able to disobey their orders?

And just how does a superior enforce this on a military which
the majority refuses to listen?

 

[insein]

No offense to Insein, but I doubt he has a crystal ball.

So gathering phone lists is no less than "destruction of what this country stands for", huh? That's some high-level hyperbole there, ma'am.

Like I said, faux hysteria. And as the thread title states, most Americans aren't buying into it. Common sense usually will prevail, thank God.

We have seen so many politically-driven attempts to make Bush look bad, and one-by-one, they fall away into the oblivion from whence they came. Memogate, anyone? Next.

Im one of the biggest Bush supporters there is since 2000. This however is WRONG. Not because of what Bush will do with it. Because of what others will do in years to come now that the precedent is set. Government will not be satisfied with just our phone records. They will want the conversations eventually and ultimately if the wrong person gets in there, they will want to police the phone waves.

People can agree all they like it doesnt make it right. People will believe whatever they are told to believe if it doesnt affect them directly. Then when it does affect them, its too late.

 

[insein]

The right to bear arms was not established so you could simply own weapons.
It was intended to do just what you said, allow the people to take up arms
against the government in the event that they attempt to take our rights
away.

But if the LAW states that you can't own weapons like ti does in San Fran, how then can you bear arms without the police or military arresting you? You can't unless you then will be a criminal.

 

[JOKER96BRAVO]

This really has nothing to do with your phone bill.
It's way beyond that.

and it's not the end of all your freedoms either.
I know, I know, it's the start of it right???
Well it very well could be the start of ending terrorism.
Both are a far stretch

 

[JOKER96BRAVO]

But if the LAW states that you can't own weapons like ti does in San Fran, how then can you bear arms without the police or military arresting you? You can't unless you then will be a criminal.

Could you not obtain one in our countries time of need to defend our rights?
Laws will not matter if this ever happens.

 

[Mr. P]

and it's not the end of all your freedoms either.
I know, I know, it's the start of it right???
Well it very well could be the start of ending terrorism.
Both are a far stretch

Wrong my friend.

 

[JOKER96BRAVO]

Wrong my friend.

Afraid not,
both are results that could appear somewhere in our future.
The likelyhood of either of them happening (due to this action) is equal, and
slim to none.

 

[JOKER96BRAVO]

Be back Monday.
Have a good weekend

 

[5stringJeff]

I want the same but will not refuse a "possible" solution to protect a phone bill. I'm sorry, but people are more important.

Here's the solution: if someone is suspected of terrorist acts and/or consorting with terrorists, go pull their phone records. Getting the phone records of a few thousand possible terrorists is fine. Getting the phone records of 200,000,000 Americans, only a very few of which fall under the terrorist category, is wrong, and as mentioned before, illegal.

 

[GotZoom]

The towers falling wouldnt have been stopped by intercepting a random phone call. It could have been stopped by streamling our beuracratic intelligence agencies which is what the Patriot act partially did. We need to focus on making our intelligence agencies more effecient not granting them access to the phone records of every American citizen.

You can't say that with 100% certainty.

I worked in intelligence for my 12 years in the Air Force. I have seen what can be done and found out with the smallest bit of insignificant information.

 

[5stringJeff]

We, the American people, have the duty to police our government and stop it from taking away our freedoms in the name of a boogeyman, whether it be terrorists, child molestors, nazis, anything. We need to keep our freedoms in our hands and not in the hands of the government as the founders intended. That was their biggest fear when they formed this great nation. They didnt want tyranny to gain a foothold. They put as many obstacles in its way to stop it but when the American People simply hand it over, then nothing can stop it.

 

[5stringJeff]

But the military has to obey its superiors. If the superiors declare a group of rebeling citizens as traitors and terrorists, how will the individuals fighting be able to disobey their orders?

Wrong. The military oath says that one will support and defend the Constitution. If an officer gives an illegal and/or immoral order, a soldier is morally obliged to disobey that order.

 

[Nuc]

"Looks Like Most Americans Have No Problem With NSA/Phone Record Program"

The majority have been wrong about things many times in this countries history.

 

[insein]

Wrong. The military oath says that one will support and defend the Constitution. If an officer gives an illegal and/or immoral order, a soldier is morally obliged to disobey that order.

What i meant, Jeff, is that a superior officer briefing a group of soldiers on a plan of attack isnt going to mention that the target is US civilians. They will brief the soliders that a "group of terrorists" or a "group of rebels" are threatening to do whatever. Soldiers will not have that moral dillemma until they are face to face with their "target." If they can then realize that the target is the American people before pulling the trigger, then hopefully they will disobey. I don't have that same confidence that they will be able to realize whats at stake in time.

Look at any militia that wishes to form. What happens? The police and government create charges in order to break them up before they become too powerful. The government understands the citizens right to bear arms and will stop at nothing to prevent a true resistance from forming. Thats why i fear we have reached the point of no return when it comes to being able to defend ourselves from the government directly. So far all they want is money and control. If a person got in there who wanted MORE, we'd be in a world of trouble.