Looks Like Most Americans Have No Problem With NSA/Phone Record Program

[rtwngAvngr]

Intellect and rationality - for example the pursuit of self-interest have nothing to do with it.

In the experiments by Milgram and Zimbardo there was no issue of self interest, just obedience to authority. Zimbardo's experiment was particularly illustrative of just how people are quick to obey.

Milgram's studies were also startling in showing just how people react to authority figures.

Did you even bother to take a look at the studies?

So are you saying Hitler's promise to empower the German people had nothing to do with his ascendancy to power? Are you saying he could have been talking about flowers and had the same effect? I'm just sure the message matters to a degree.

 

[Gunny]

Intellect and rationality - for example the pursuit of self-interest have nothing to do with it.

In the experiments by Milgram and Zimbardo there was no issue of self interest, just obedience to authority. Zimbardo's experiment was particularly illustrative of just how people are quick to obey.

Milgram's studies were also startling in showing just how people react to authority figures.

Did you even bother to take a look at the studies?

Self-interest certainly does come into play where obedience to authority is concerned; regardless, your "study." People are far more inclined to obey authority if they are apathetic to what they are being ordered to do. The willingness to rebel is directly reflected in the amount of self-interest involved. THAT would be a logical conclusion. Your study would fit a society of automatons.

Further, ANYONE who thinks US troops would blindly follow the orders to take up arms against their fellow Americns obviously never led troops anywhere. You better have some iron-clad, irrefutable justification in hand before trying.

 

[dilloduck]

I'd rather die free then live comfortably in tyranny.

Where to you plan to live to be totally free until you die?

 

[Gunny]

Where to you plan to live to be totally free until you die?

Somewhere around Marfa.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Diuretic, that study is bogus. They KNOW it's just an experiment. They're playacting for the cameras. Or else they were told to "act barbaric". I smell a setup.


"oh yeah. Then YOU come on campus and pretend to be outraged. Yeah. That'll work". This is crap.

 

[Diuretic]

So are you saying Hitler's promise to empower the German people had nothing to do with his ascendancy to power? Are you saying he could have been talking about flowers and had the same effect? I'm just sure the message matters to a degree.

Yes it does. He wasn't going to get them all fired up by selling them hardship. His earliest arguments and even his earliest actions as Chancellor were about sorting out the dreadful economy in Germany. I'm not at all an expert on this area but I remember reading where Hitler talked about increasing German influence in Europe for economic reasons - for lebensraum (?) - living room? To people suffering in a crap economy that would have been a very powerful message.

But to completely control the will of an entire country takes more than promises. If you haven't watched "Triumph of the Will" the Leni Riefenstahl film in its entirety then you should. Aside from the fact that it's extremely well made it gives you an insight into how Hitler and the Nazis began their control of Germany. The psychological tricks leap out at you.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Yes it does. He wasn't going to get them all fired up by selling them hardship. His earliest arguments and even his earliest actions as Chancellor were about sorting out the dreadful economy in Germany. I'm not at all an expert on this area but I remember reading where Hitler talked about increasing German influence in Europe for economic reasons - for lebensraum (?) - living room? To people suffering in a crap economy that would have been a very powerful message.

But to completely control the will of an entire country takes more than promises. If you haven't watched "Triumph of the Will" the Leni Riefenstahl film in its entirety then you should. Aside from the fact that it's extremely well made it gives you an insight into how Hitler and the Nazis began their control of Germany. The psychological tricks leap out at you.

I really liked "Porky's".

 

[Mr. P]

Diuretic is correct here..

Now time to really explain, just one example. Anyone that has been in the military and gone through basic training is re-made. Stripped of being "civilian", and molded to become "military".

 

[Diuretic]

Self-interest certainly does come into play where obedience to authority is concerned; regardless, your "study." People are far more inclined to obey authority if they are apathetic to what they are being ordered to do. The willingness to rebel is directly reflected in the amount of self-interest involved. THAT would be a logical conclusion. Your study would fit a society of automatons.

Not my study. Milgram conducted a set of experiments about obedience and Zimbardo conducted a study looking at the same thing but using different methods. Zimbardo used college students and sited his experiment in Stanford University.

Further, ANYONE who thinks US troops would blindly follow the orders to take up arms against their fellow Americns obviously never led troops anywhere. You better have some iron-clad, irrefutable justification in hand before trying.

The US Civil War?

Anyway as I understand it the military isn't allowed to participate in civil society in the US, isn't that the reason the National Guard was established? And since we got to the National Guard then Kent State has to be mentioned.

But it's true, the US military has not generally - unlike some other nations - been used against its own citizens. But I didn't say it had.

 

[Gunny]

Diuretic is correct here..

Now time to really explain, just one example. Anyone that has been in the military and gone through basic training is re-made. Stripped of being "civilian", and molded to become "military".

Which does absolutely nothing to change anyone's ability to think for themselves. It's training to suit the environment.

 

[Diuretic]

Diuretic, that study is bogus. They KNOW it's just an experiment. They're playacting for the cameras. Or else they were told to "act barbaric". I smell a setup.


"oh yeah. Then YOU come on campus and pretend to be outraged. Yeah. That'll work". This is crap.

And I smell cognitive dissonence RWA. No, neither were setups. Check out what happened with the aftermath of Zimbardo's experiment. It damn near ruined him and some of those people are still suffering today. No, sadly it wasn't a setup at all.

 

[Diuretic]

Which does absolutely nothing to change anyone's ability to think for themselves. It's training to suit the environment.

It certainly is and it's focused on obedience. And I have to say there's nothing wrong with that. Who wants to command a platoon where the first response to an order is "why?"

 

[rtwngAvngr]

And I smell cognitive dissonence RWA. No, neither were setups. Check out what happened with the aftermath of Zimbardo's experiment. It damn near ruined him and some of those people are still suffering today. No, sadly it wasn't a setup at all.

I'm not saying there aren't some bad apples. I just reject the notion that ANYONE would act this way in an authoritarian hierarchical context.

 

[Gunny]

Yes it does. He wasn't going to get them all fired up by selling them hardship. His earliest arguments and even his earliest actions as Chancellor were about sorting out the dreadful economy in Germany. I'm not at all an expert on this area but I remember reading where Hitler talked about increasing German influence in Europe for economic reasons - for lebensraum (?) - living room? To people suffering in a crap economy that would have been a very powerful message.

But to completely control the will of an entire country takes more than promises. If you haven't watched "Triumph of the Will" the Leni Riefenstahl film in its entirety then you should. Aside from the fact that it's extremely well made it gives you an insight into how Hitler and the Nazis began their control of Germany. The psychological tricks leap out at you.

Your history is essentially correct. Now apply it to our society today.

 

[dilloduck]

Somewhere around Marfa.

Not a bad idea really if the aliens (UFO type) would quit blasting everyone with "lights"

 

[Diuretic]

I'm not saying there aren't some bad apples. I just reject the notion that ANYONE would act this way in an authoritarian hierarchical context.

I wish you were right. Unfortunately both science and human experience don't go along with my wishes or your claim. But some people of course, won't. Some brave souls will stand up and say no way am I doing that. But sadly not that many. Most of us humans - us humans, let me get that straight, I'm talking about all of us - will go along with it. Bloody disappointing but true.

 

[Gunny]

It certainly is and it's focused on obedience. And I have to say there's nothing wrong with that. Who wants to command a platoon where the first response to an order is "why?"

It STILL does not take away anyone's ability to think for themselves unless they weren't capable of doing it to begin with.

Most orders are self-explanatory and require no explanation. If they do, don't think it isn't asked just because they don't show it on TV.

 

[insein]

I dont fear the military like they are an evil beast coming to get us. I fear those that are in charge of them and that the soldiers won't be able to determine right from wrong in time.

 

[Diuretic]

Your history is essentially correct. Now apply it to our society today.

To America? Well let's say that I don't think that the US will ever be in the straits that Germany was in the 1920s in terms of her economy or her society. But if the conditions were right it could happen as it did in Germany.

But my point is it could happen anywhere. It just takes the right conditions and the right person to come along. I think humans are conditioned to look for messiah figures when the chips are right down.

In my country in the years of the Great Depression there was a very right-wing group called The Movement that actually wanted to overthrow the democratically elected government and put it under military control. And it had some popularity. I don't know if you've ever seen film footage of the opening of the Sydney Harbour bridge but the ribbon was cut by a mounted uniformed member of The Movement before the Premier of New South Wales, Jack Lang, could do so. That's how brazen they were.

 

[dilloduck]

To America? Well let's say that I don't think that the US will ever be in the straits that Germany was in the 1920s in terms of her economy or her society. But if the conditions were right it could happen as it did in Germany.

But my point is it could happen anywhere. It just takes the right conditions and the right person to come along. I think humans are conditioned to look for messiah figures when the chips are right down.

In my country in the years of the Great Depression there was a very right-wing group called The Movement that actually wanted to overthrow the democratically elected government and put it under military control. And it had some popularity. I don't know if you've ever seen film footage of the opening of the Sydney Harbour bridge but the ribbon was cut by a mounted uniformed member of The Movement before the Premier of New South Wales, Jack Lang, could do so. That's how brazen they were.

We have a group called "liberals" who are similar.