LOL - "Creation Science" - LOL

[surada]

It was the creationists who discovered tectonic plates lol.

Alfred Wegener was a meteorologist and a Christian (1915) but he wasn't the first.. Point is he wasn't stuck in Bible literalism.

Plate Tectonics: Creationist Idea Still Makes Accurate Predictions

The science of plate tectonics in geology, started by a creationist in the 19th century, continues to provide testable predictions within a biblical worldview.

answersingenesis.org

 

[Wuwei]

He doesn't understand that pressure causes heat when tectonic plates push against each other.

Introduction to Human Evolution

humanorigins.si.edu

Yes, but his screwy science seems to be a lot more than that in the following post:

You are talking about geothermal or Earth's heating features like a volcano or Earth making its own heat from the core. That's what makes them from the great deep and hydrothermal. Do you know what causes the Earth to heat up as we get towards the core? The water came from the great deep refers to the subterranean oceans of which I posted an article. That shut the dumb atheists up.

It is a mish-mash of geological thoughts that are so poorly stated that they don't make much sense. The subterranean oceans he refers to are magnesium hydroxides thought to be 410 to 660 km below Earth's surface. They are certainly not oceans and not enough to cause Noah's flood.
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[james bond]

Alfred Wegener was a meteorologist and a Christian (1915) but he wasn't the first.. Point is he wasn't stuck in Bible literalism.

Plate Tectonics: Creationist Idea Still Makes Accurate Predictions

The science of plate tectonics in geology, started by a creationist in the 19th century, continues to provide testable predictions within a biblical worldview.

answersingenesis.org

So close, but so far. You and the atheist geologists are still losers, i.e. no global flood, no fast catastrophism. Had you read the article, it would've pointed out,

"The Bible held the clue to revolutionizing our understanding of geology. And if scientists would look to God’s Word—rather than their own fallible understanding—for the true history of the world, think how much further advanced science and knowledge would be! We still understand so much less than we could about this world because the vast majority of geologists (and other scientists) ignore biblical history, believing, instead, in ideas like slow-and-gradual processes over millions of years."

...

"It’s worth noting that Snider-Pelligrini wasn’t the last creation scientist to study and consider plate tectonics. Others have, such as Dr. John Baumgardner, a prominent physicist, who proposed catastrophic plate tectonics, a model for how the earth’s crust could have rapidly broken apart and moved during the flood. His model gave testable results. As one article explains:

[Baumgardner’s] theory suggested that the “cold” crust, located beneath the pre-Flood oceans, should have sunk the full 1,800 miles (2900 km) to the base of the earth’s hot mantle, where the temperatures are up to 7,232°F (4000°C). This crust would have melted if it had millions of years to reach the base of the mantle, sinking as slowly as today’s rates. On the other hand, if it sank quickly 4,350 years ago, as Baumgardner’s theory suggested, then piles of those plates should still be found at the base of the mantle, cooler than the mantle around them.

As scientists have peered under earth’s crust with this technology, they discovered cold material, just as this model—based on the biblical timeline and a global flood—predicted!

Well, that was back in the 1980s, and science has certainly progressed since then. With new technology, scientists can actually test such an idea. And as scientists have peered under earth’s crust with this technology, they discovered cold material, just as this model—based on the biblical timeline and a global flood—predicted! This is another confirmation that the Bible’s history is true and that Baumgardner’s model is an accurate explanation of what happened during the flood."

 

[surada]

So close, but so far. You and the atheist geologists are still losers, i.e. no global flood, no fast catastrophism. Had you read the article, it would've pointed out,

"The Bible held the clue to revolutionizing our understanding of geology. And if scientists would look to God’s Word—rather than their own fallible understanding—for the true history of the world, think how much further advanced science and knowledge would be! We still understand so much less than we could about this world because the vast majority of geologists (and other scientists) ignore biblical history, believing, instead, in ideas like slow-and-gradual processes over millions of years."

...

"It’s worth noting that Snider-Pelligrini wasn’t the last creation scientist to study and consider plate tectonics. Others have, such as Dr. John Baumgardner, a prominent physicist, who proposed catastrophic plate tectonics, a model for how the earth’s crust could have rapidly broken apart and moved during the flood. His model gave testable results. As one article explains:






Well, that was back in the 1980s, and science has certainly progressed since then. With new technology, scientists can actually test such an idea. And as scientists have peered under earth’s crust with this technology, they discovered cold material, just as this model—based on the biblical timeline and a global flood—predicted! This is another confirmation that the Bible’s history is true and that Baumgardner’s model is an accurate explanation of what happened during the flood."

He teaches at Liberty University.

Biography of Dr. John Baumgardner

About Dr. John Baumgardner, author and creator of Global Flood.

www.globalflood.org

 

[james bond]

He teaches at Liberty University.

Biography of Dr. John Baumgardner

About Dr. John Baumgardner, author and creator of Global Flood.

www.globalflood.org

"Soon after my conversion I began a four-year tour of active duty in the U. S. Air Force, a time of exciting and deep spiritual growth. A desire for Christian ministry then led me to join the campus ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. Grieved by the deliberate use of evolution to assault and destroy the faith of Christian college students that I observed on the campus where I served, I began to present classroom lectures and evening forums to expose evolution’s fraudulent claims. In researching issues relating to the Genesis Flood and earth history in preparation for some of these events, I realized that Noah’s Flood logically involved planetary scale tectonic catastrophe. This awareness prompted me to leave Campus Crusade in 1978 to begin a Ph.D. program in geophysics at UCLA to obtain the training and credentials specifically to address the problem of the mechanism of the Genesis Flood at a professional scientific level. My Ph.D. thesis research involved the development of a 3-D spherical finite element model for the earth’s mantle, a program now known as TERRA. Most of this thesis research I conducted at Los Alamos National Laboratory. I completed my Ph.D. from UCLA in geophysics and space physics in 1983."

You provide the evidence of Noah's Flood as "logically involved planetary scale tectonic catastrophe." I was able to deduce it myself from the evidence. OTOH, the atheists do not have anything logical nor testable to compare to observable catastrophism.

 

[surada]

"Soon after my conversion I began a four-year tour of active duty in the U. S. Air Force, a time of exciting and deep spiritual growth. A desire for Christian ministry then led me to join the campus ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. Grieved by the deliberate use of evolution to assault and destroy the faith of Christian college students that I observed on the campus where I served, I began to present classroom lectures and evening forums to expose evolution’s fraudulent claims. In researching issues relating to the Genesis Flood and earth history in preparation for some of these events, I realized that Noah’s Flood logically involved planetary scale tectonic catastrophe. This awareness prompted me to leave Campus Crusade in 1978 to begin a Ph.D. program in geophysics at UCLA to obtain the training and credentials specifically to address the problem of the mechanism of the Genesis Flood at a professional scientific level. My Ph.D. thesis research involved the development of a 3-D spherical finite element model for the earth’s mantle, a program now known as TERRA. Most of this thesis research I conducted at Los Alamos National Laboratory. I completed my Ph.D. from UCLA in geophysics and space physics in 1983."

You provide the evidence of Noah's Flood as "logically involved planetary scale tectonic catastrophe." I was able to deduce it myself from the evidence. OTOH, the atheists do not have anything logical nor testable to compare to observable catastrophism.

Plate tectonics had nothing to do with the world wide flood myth,

The mountains didn't all pop up at once nor did Pangea break up rapidly.

 

[Wuwei]

Plate tectonics had nothing to do with the world wide flood myth,

The mountains didn't all pop up at once nor did Pangea break up rapidly.

Dropping bible school to get a PhD explains why some PhDs believe in creationism. I would like to see his scientific publications on the recent planetary catastrophe.

 

[surada]

Dropping bible school to get a PhD explains why some PhDs believe in creationism. I would like to see his scientific publications on the recent planetary catastrophe.

Liberty University is very fundamentalist... Dispensationalism and Dominionism.. flavored ith the Scofield heresy.. These guys will kill the Christian faith completely in another 50 years.

 

[Hollie]

You can't answer the question. What I can observe is one can't have a smaller replica of Earth with a hot molten core and cool outside or else they would have to provide energy to the core to keep it molten. With no energy, it would cool into a solid. This may be difficult as one would prolly have to have a solid first with an empty core and after pour the molten liquid in.

I certainly won't answer any question with the non-answer of 'the gods did it'.

Identify the source of your ''observation''.

 

[surada]

You can't answer the question. What I can observe is one can't have a smaller replica of Earth with a hot molten core and cool outside or else they would have to provide energy to the core to keep it molten. With no energy, it would cool into a solid. This may be difficult as one would prolly have to have a solid first with an empty core and after pour the molten liquid in.

That's about as dumb as I ever heard.. Why don't you write to Liberty University with your observation. Science doesn't back up the Bible. You fundamentalists will kill Christianity if you keep it up.

 

[Hollie]

"Soon after my conversion I began a four-year tour of active duty in the U. S. Air Force, a time of exciting and deep spiritual growth. A desire for Christian ministry then led me to join the campus ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. Grieved by the deliberate use of evolution to assault and destroy the faith of Christian college students that I observed on the campus where I served, I began to present classroom lectures and evening forums to expose evolution’s fraudulent claims. In researching issues relating to the Genesis Flood and earth history in preparation for some of these events, I realized that Noah’s Flood logically involved planetary scale tectonic catastrophe. This awareness prompted me to leave Campus Crusade in 1978 to begin a Ph.D. program in geophysics at UCLA to obtain the training and credentials specifically to address the problem of the mechanism of the Genesis Flood at a professional scientific level. My Ph.D. thesis research involved the development of a 3-D spherical finite element model for the earth’s mantle, a program now known as TERRA. Most of this thesis research I conducted at Los Alamos National Laboratory. I completed my Ph.D. from UCLA in geophysics and space physics in 1983."

You provide the evidence of Noah's Flood as "logically involved planetary scale tectonic catastrophe." I was able to deduce it myself from the evidence. OTOH, the atheists do not have anything logical nor testable to compare to observable catastrophism.

Encyclopedia of American Loons

It’s … The Encyclopedia of American loons! Our new and exciting series presenting a representative sample of American loons from A-Z.

americanloons.blogspot.com

John R. Baumgardner is a geophysicist, young earth creationist, and Christian fundamentalist. So yes, he is another one of those people whom creationists rely on so heavily, since he’s got credentials (he has a PhD in geophysics from UCLA), and in fact some reputable, real science publications (not using creationism, of course).

Baumgardner’s life task is to provide scientific proof of the Deluge myth, a goal he has entertained ever since he, according to himself, turned to Christianity in his twenties.
He is famous for creating a computer program (“Terra”) to model the flood, and is a central member of RATE (and IDEA). His main schtick is the “runaway subduction model” of the flood, which relies essentially on magic: The pre-flood ocean floor sunk into the underlying mantle, which then bubbled up massive amounts of magma; virtually the entire existing ocean floor on the entire planet was formed this way in a very short period of time. Which means that 2 billion km3 worth of lava flows, at 1200 degrees C, were released below the oceans at once. The amount of heat and energy released this way (about 1028 j) would of course boil off the oceans (so much for the flood) and perhaps even the atmosphere. But, of course, Baumgardner does what creationists do in such cases: a miracle happened. It is actually rather interesting (and occasionally close to endearing) that creationists attempt to give their views this extra science-sounding ornaments; at the very foundation of the theory there is the miracle of Jesus. One would think that it would be easier and more elegant to just posit these miracles directly, without the additional scientific bells and whistles. Unless the point is deception, of course.

Baumgardner also worked with Ron Wyatt on one of Wyatt’s attempts to find the Ark, though to Baumgardner’s credit he did not accept Wyatt’s claims that the rock formations they found were actual remnants of the Ark. It is not obviously to his credit that he accepts global warming: “Yes, global temperatures are rising […], but […] it’s because Earth has been warming slowly but surely ever since Noah's Flood 5,000 years ago,” according to WorldNetDaily, who apparently thought Baumgardner’s delusional ravings were worth writing up in an article.

Canadian creationist David Buckna is apparently a fan, and his JAQing off, without a shred of concern that his points get thoroughly debunked, constitute an almost wonderful version of the Gish gallop. To underline the insanity of flood geology, the garbled unhingedness of the rants of Kelly Hollowell are illustrative as well.

Diagnosis: A sad case of a probably intelligent person who failed to distinguish science from its cargo cult incarnation. Baumgardner is happily continuing a long tradition of medieval theosophistry when applying his background to provide heavyweight answers to deep questions such as calculating the numbers of animals that could be on the Ark or how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

 

[Hollie]

It was the creationists who discovered tectonic plates lol.

No. It was not.

 

[Wuwei]

That's about as dumb as I ever heard.. Why don't you write to Liberty University with your observation. Science doesn't back up the Bible. You fundamentalists will kill Christianity if you keep it up.

I can understand people who are comfortable with creationism. I have an aunt and two sisters-in-law who believe. They are nice people and we get along great. I would never attempt to kill their Christianity. Also it's fine for james bond to have faith. There is no worry that I would kill his Christianity. The only problem is that he is not comfortable with his own Christianity and manically tries to defend it by distorting physics and other sciences. He also attacks and tries (but fails) to humiliate those who point out his self-contradictions in science. As you point out he is not doing anyone any good.
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[surada]

I can understand people who are comfortable with creationism. I have an aunt and two sisters-in-law who believe. They are nice people and we get along great. I would never attempt to kill their Christianity. Also it's fine for james bond to have faith. There is no worry that I would kill his Christianity. The only problem is that he is not comfortable with his own Christianity and manically tries to defend it by distorting physics and other sciences. He also attacks and tries (but fails) to humiliate those who point out his self-contradictions in science. As you point out he is not doing anyone any good.
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Well said.. Problem is the fundamentalists will ultimately drive people away from faith. Even little kids question Jonah being swallowed by a fish..

Once it is explained as a comic novella about how Jonah wanted God to destroy the people of Ninevah who had repented... it makes a lot of sense.

 

[Wuwei]

Diagnosis: A sad case of a probably intelligent person who failed to distinguish science from its cargo cult incarnation. Baumgardner is happily continuing a long tradition of medieval theosophistry when applying his background to provide heavyweight answers to deep questions such as calculating the numbers of animals that could be on the Ark or how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

I just read the final chapters of the (313 pg) book "Why People Believe Weird Things". Michael Shermer is a well known author and personality but his book was very disappointing. It was mostly tales about people who believe in intelligent design, clairvoyance, ghosts, the holocaust hoax, alien abductions, etc. His WHY was very brief. People are drawn to,
Immediate gratification. A quick easy answer to what their own future is, where the universe came from ...
Morality and Meaning. Science and cold logic omits the meaning of life and a code for humans ...
Hope. Humans seek a better life and greater levels of happiness...

It seems that these requirements are innate in humans and can surpass science and logic.

Belief, disbelief, and uncertainty are mediated in separate parts of the brain and can coexist to a certain extent. Some people may not even have an inner-conflict or even being aware of it.
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[Wuwei]

Some people may not even have an inner-conflict or even being aware of it.

Oops; missing words. The last sentence should be:
Some people may not even care they have an inner conflict or even be aware of it.

 

[Hollie]

I just read the final chapters of the (313 pg) book "Why People Believe Weird Things". Michael Shermer is a well known author and personality but his book was very disappointing. It was mostly tales about people who believe in intelligent design, clairvoyance, ghosts, the holocaust hoax, alien abductions, etc. His WHY was very brief. People are drawn to,
Immediate gratification. A quick easy answer to what their own future is, where the universe came from ...
Morality and Meaning. Science and cold logic omits the meaning of life and a code for humans ...
Hope. Humans seek a better life and greater levels of happiness...

It seems that these requirements are innate in humans and can surpass science and logic.

Belief, disbelief, and uncertainty are mediated in separate parts of the brain and can coexist to a certain extent. Some people may not even have an inner-conflict or even being aware of it.

"Belief, disbelief, and uncertainty are mediated in separate parts of the brain and can coexist to a certain extent. Some people may not even have an inner-conflict or even being aware of it."

I think those are great observations.

IMHO, the search for "meaning" is at the heart of the religious impulse. We are driven by the despair of our own existential anxieties to generate meaning and purpose for ourselves. I think this is all the result of the unavoidable psychological conflict between our basic instinct for survival and the intellectual realization of our own mortality. We find meaning in self transcendent acts and concepts. By reaching out beyond ourselves to find connections to larger communities and realities we somehow escape our own mortalities, at least symbolically. If our creative efforts, or our children, or our communities, or our species, survive our own personal mortality, we gain a symbolic sense of immortality through our connections to these things. If the rigorous pursuit of scientific knowledge through reason contributes to the health of the planet, the survival of our species, a better quality of life, etc., it is profoundly meaningful. Human emotions have their source in natural instincts we see every day in the common animal kingdom. We simply have added a vast array of texture to emotions that simpler animals do not. I embrace human passion joyfully; it is a part of the wonder of being alive. That we pay for our emotions with fears and acts of questionable ethics is a price we have to be willing to pay, given the choice.

The only "condemning aspect" of my life is the Christian based idea that as an imperfect being I deserve Hell by default. I'm fairly honest, I work hard, I love my friends and family, etc.-- in short, I'm your average person who lives a quiet life dealing with life's challenges. I cannot imagine rating eternal torment because I don't acquiesce to the Christian defined salvation program. I ask myself:

"Which is more likely: That there's really this angry god out there who would actually behave that way, or it's really in the religion’s interest to establish a social dynamic where the threat of eternal torment is the outcome for not joining in that religion and btw supporting it financially. What's more likely, man needs a savior for being human, or the Church, an entity of sweeping power for more than a thousand years, needs to convince me I need them and only them?"

I think the answer is really obvious and simple. If such a thing is the reality (and of course there's no evidence for such) then I'll have to "account for my actions". But my worst "crime" in this realm is being imperfect and not believing that which I find is not supported. I can do nothing about such a god who would condemn me for such a trivial issue, nor can I do anything about the fact (my term) that after death it's nothing but a dreamless sleep. Both are equally depressing, hopeless, and bleak, and there's a marginal difference between condemning most people who ever existed to an eternity of despair versus everyone being condemned to an eternity of nothingness. It's hopeless because if such a god exists, there is no sense in morality, no true justice, and basically we are nothing but minions created to worship an infinite Ego or be consigned to everlasting torment.

 

[surada]

"Belief, disbelief, and uncertainty are mediated in separate parts of the brain and can coexist to a certain extent. Some people may not even have an inner-conflict or even being aware of it."

I think those are great observations.

IMHO, the search for "meaning" is at the heart of the religious impulse. We are driven by the despair of our own existential anxieties to generate meaning and purpose for ourselves. I think this is all the result of the unavoidable psychological conflict between our basic instinct for survival and the intellectual realization of our own mortality. We find meaning in self transcendent acts and concepts. By reaching out beyond ourselves to find connections to larger communities and realities we somehow escape our own mortalities, at least symbolically. If our creative efforts, or our children, or our communities, or our species, survive our own personal mortality, we gain a symbolic sense of immortality through our connections to these things. If the rigorous pursuit of scientific knowledge through reason contributes to the health of the planet, the survival of our species, a better quality of life, etc., it is profoundly meaningful. Human emotions have their source in natural instincts we see every day in the common animal kingdom. We simply have added a vast array of texture to emotions that simpler animals do not. I embrace human passion joyfully; it is a part of the wonder of being alive. That we pay for our emotions with fears and acts of questionable ethics is a price we have to be willing to pay, given the choice.

The only "condemning aspect" of my life is the Christian based idea that as an imperfect being I deserve Hell by default. I'm fairly honest, I work hard, I love my friends and family, etc.-- in short, I'm your average person who lives a quiet life dealing with life's challenges. I cannot imagine rating eternal torment because I don't acquiesce to the Christian defined salvation program. I ask myself:

"Which is more likely: That there's really this angry god out there who would actually behave that way, or it's really in the religion’s interest to establish a social dynamic where the threat of eternal torment is the outcome for not joining in that religion and btw supporting it financially. What's more likely, man needs a savior for being human, or the Church, an entity of sweeping power for more than a thousand years, needs to convince me I need them and only them?"

I think the answer is really obvious and simple. If such a thing is the reality (and of course there's no evidence for such) then I'll have to "account for my actions". But my worst "crime" in this realm is being imperfect and not believing that which I find is not supported. I can do nothing about such a god who would condemn me for such a trivial issue, nor can I do anything about the fact (my term) that after death it's nothing but a dreamless sleep. Both are equally depressing, hopeless, and bleak, and there's a marginal difference between condemning most people who ever existed to an eternity of despair versus everyone being condemned to an eternity of nothingness. It's hopeless because if such a god exists, there is no sense in morality, no true justice, and basically we are nothing but minions created to worship an infinite Ego or be consigned to everlasting torment.

Great post..

The problem IMO is indulging in supernatural fantasy as a way to deal with anxiety and inner conflict.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

We don't know/know yet.
That's why we've had and discarded thousands of other gods: when we found out.

"We used to believe in thousands of gods. Then it was 100. Now it's one. We are getting closer to the truth every time."

- Christopher Hitchens

 

[Wuwei]

The only "condemning aspect" of my life is the Christian based idea that as an imperfect being I deserve Hell by default. I'm fairly honest, I work hard, I love my friends and family, etc.-- in short, I'm your average person who lives a quiet life dealing with life's challenges. I cannot imagine rating eternal torment because I don't acquiesce to the Christian defined salvation program. I ask myself:

"Which is more likely: That there's really this angry god out there who would actually behave that way, or it's really in the religion’s interest to establish a social dynamic where the threat of eternal torment is the outcome for not joining in that religion and btw supporting it financially. What's more likely, man needs a savior for being human, or the Church, an entity of sweeping power for more than a thousand years, needs to convince me I need them and only them?"

I once felt that way, and I said if there was heaven, I have done nothing to deserve hell so I would go to heaven. I said it to a Catholic priest while doing pre-marriage counseling. My to-be wife asked him in private if that was true. He said yes. It was comforting to her, (and surprisingly a little to me too.)
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