Liberalism

[lg325]

https://www.princeton.edu/~starr/articles/articles07/Starr.WhyLiberalismWorks.pdf Its the best I could get my computer is acting up

 

[Votto]

Not sure what good spouting off the ivory tower definition of what liberalism should be and should do. After all, when it comes to politics whether it is liberalism or conservatism, the ideologies are simply high jacked and used by those in power for their own benefit as they ignore the rest.

For example, had Hitler not tried to conquer the world he probably would have gone down as one of the greatest Progressives in world history. Here is a man who embraced National Socialism, a man who passed record breaking legislation to protect the environment and gun control and even helped protect animals from abuse, etc.

But why did he embrace socialism? In fact, why have despots throughout history embraced it? It was not so that society could be more "just" and Progressive. The reason they all choose it time and again is because in order for the state to be able to monitor every financial transaction and then redistribute money from each and every transaction as they see fit, the state must be given almost unlimited power. Then they move on to monitoring everything else, like what you say and think.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

But why did he embrace socialism?

Because socialism was populism, at that time and place. They were virtually interchangeable. (And it wasn't true socialism anyway... just as China is not a Republic. So the point you are trying to make is weak sauce.) Nowadays, in the dumbest developed country on the planet (the US), populism often means just appealing the the worst in people, the way Trump did.

 

[Rigby5]

Not sure what good spouting off the ivory tower definition of what liberalism should be and should do. After all, when it comes to politics whether it is liberalism or conservatism, the ideologies are simply high jacked and used by those in power for their own benefit as they ignore the rest.

For example, had Hitler not tried to conquer the world he probably would have gone down as one of the greatest Progressives in world history. Here is a man who embraced National Socialism, a man who passed record breaking legislation to protect the environment and gun control and even helped protect animals from abuse, etc.

But why did he embrace socialism? In fact, why have despots throughout history embraced it? It was not so that society could be more "just" and Progressive. The reason they all choose it time and again is because in order for the state to be able to monitor every financial transaction and then redistribute money from each and every transaction as they see fit, the state must be given almost unlimited power. Then they move on to monitoring everything else, like what you say and think.

Sorry, but you need read your history books better.
National Socialism is essentially anti-socialist.
Hitler was always strongly against socialism, and in fact had all the socialists killed or imprisoned.

Hitler was about the least progressive in history, being selected by the oligarchs to be their front man and patsy.
Not a single private company was replaced by any socialist ones.
All the military weapons were made by private companies, for profit.

When it comes to liberal and conservative, originally there were not in conflict.
Liberal means one who defends individual liberties.
Conservative is one who limits government powers, so individual liberties can be protected.
The only definition of liberal and conservative that are in opposition is when one speaks of how to interpret the constitution. If one takes a liberal view of what the federal government is allowed to do, that differs from what a conservative would think.

 

[Rigby5]

But why did he embrace socialism?

Because socialism was populism, at that time and place. They were virtually interchangeable. (And it wasn't true socialism anyway... just as China is not a Republic. So the point you are trying to make is weak sauce.) Nowadays, in the dumbest developed country on the planet (the US), populism often means just appealing the the worst in people, the way Trump did.

No, nothing at all remotely socialist about National Socialism or Hitler.
National Socialism was totally anti-socialist.

 

[Votto]

Not sure what good spouting off the ivory tower definition of what liberalism should be and should do. After all, when it comes to politics whether it is liberalism or conservatism, the ideologies are simply high jacked and used by those in power for their own benefit as they ignore the rest.

For example, had Hitler not tried to conquer the world he probably would have gone down as one of the greatest Progressives in world history. Here is a man who embraced National Socialism, a man who passed record breaking legislation to protect the environment and gun control and even helped protect animals from abuse, etc.

But why did he embrace socialism? In fact, why have despots throughout history embraced it? It was not so that society could be more "just" and Progressive. The reason they all choose it time and again is because in order for the state to be able to monitor every financial transaction and then redistribute money from each and every transaction as they see fit, the state must be given almost unlimited power. Then they move on to monitoring everything else, like what you say and think.

Sorry, but you need read your history books better.
National Socialism is essentially anti-socialist.
Hitler was always strongly against socialism, and in fact had all the socialists killed or imprisoned.

Hitler was about the least progressive in history, being selected by the oligarchs to be their front man and patsy.
Not a single private company was replaced by any socialist ones.
All the military weapons were made by private companies, for profit.

When it comes to liberal and conservative, originally there were not in conflict.
Liberal means one who defends individual liberties.
Conservative is one who limits government powers, so individual liberties can be protected.
The only definition of liberal and conservative that are in opposition is when one speaks of how to interpret the constitution. If one takes a liberal view of what the federal government is allowed to do, that differs from what a conservative would think.

Apparently someone has trouble reading today

I said that despots pick and choose what they like about philosophies so that they suit their own purpose. For example, a Marxist never adopts Marxism for the sake of Marxism Marxism is never the goal. The goal is merely control. So if they violate the ivory tower definitions of Marxism along the way, then academics merely wash their hands of that despot being a Marxist saying he did not meet all the criteria. But at the end of the day, the aspects of Marxism they did adopt were routinely ignored by them.

For example, Hitler did not own industry, which was one of the ivory tower definitions of socialism. Hitler once said, why nationalize industry when you nationalize the people? Hitler knew that he did not need to own them in name to control them. He was smart enough to realize that leaving the experts in place to run industry was superior to letting mindless bureaucrats do it. Most have learned this lesson except for places like Venezuela. But today, people like Bernie Sanders refer to Europe as socialist even though they allow private industry just like Hitler as he uses the same term socialist to describe places like Venezuela as socialist. But Bernie would NEVER call Nazi Germany socialist, even though it is part of their name and even though they followed many socialist type polices. Why? Cuz it's bad PR for his ideology.

 

[Votto]

But why did he embrace socialism?

Because socialism was populism, at that time and place. They were virtually interchangeable. (And it wasn't true socialism anyway... just as China is not a Republic. So the point you are trying to make is weak sauce.) Nowadays, in the dumbest developed country on the planet (the US), populism often means just appealing the the worst in people, the way Trump did.

No, nothing at all remotely socialist about National Socialism or Hitler.
National Socialism was totally anti-socialist.

That is a flat out lie.

Who does this sound like?

We ask that government undertake the obligation above all of providing citizens with adequate opportunity for employment and earning a living. The activities of the individual must not be allowed to clash with the interests of the community, but must take place within the confines and be for the good of all. Therefore, we demand: ... an end to the power of financial interest. We demand profit sharing in big business. We demand a broad extension of care for the aged. We demand ... the greatest possible consideration of small business in the purchases of the national, state, and municipal governments. In order to make possible to every capable and industrious [citizen] the attainment of higher education and thus the achievement of a post of leadership, the government must provide an all-around enlargement of our system of public education.... We demand the education at government expense of gifted children of poor parents.... The government must undertake the improvement of public health -- by protecting mother and child, by prohibiting child labor -- by the greatest possible support for all groups concerned with the physical education of youth. [W]e combat the ... materialistic spirit within and without us, and are convinced that a permanent recovery of our people can only proceed from within on the foundation of The Common Good Before the Individual Good.

Give to us by the National Socialist party of Nazi Germany.

And who does this sound like?

Socialists, we are opponents of the Jews, because we see, in the Hebrews, the incarnation of capitalism, of the misuse of the nation’s goods.
more Joseph Paul Goebbels quotes

National Socialism is a religion. All we lack is a religious genius capable of uprooting outmoded religious practices and putting new ones in their place. We lack traditions and ritual. One day soon National Socialism will be the religion of all Germans. My Party is my church, and I believe I serve the Lord best if I do his will, and liberate my oppressed people from the fetters of slavery. That is my gospel.
more Joseph Paul Goebbels quotes

We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions.
more Adolf Hitler quotes

This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilised nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!
more Adolf Hitler quotes

They were among the first to also have socialized medicine.

 

[Rigby5]

Not sure what good spouting off the ivory tower definition of what liberalism should be and should do. After all, when it comes to politics whether it is liberalism or conservatism, the ideologies are simply high jacked and used by those in power for their own benefit as they ignore the rest.

For example, had Hitler not tried to conquer the world he probably would have gone down as one of the greatest Progressives in world history. Here is a man who embraced National Socialism, a man who passed record breaking legislation to protect the environment and gun control and even helped protect animals from abuse, etc.

But why did he embrace socialism? In fact, why have despots throughout history embraced it? It was not so that society could be more "just" and Progressive. The reason they all choose it time and again is because in order for the state to be able to monitor every financial transaction and then redistribute money from each and every transaction as they see fit, the state must be given almost unlimited power. Then they move on to monitoring everything else, like what you say and think.

Sorry, but you need read your history books better.
National Socialism is essentially anti-socialist.
Hitler was always strongly against socialism, and in fact had all the socialists killed or imprisoned.

Hitler was about the least progressive in history, being selected by the oligarchs to be their front man and patsy.
Not a single private company was replaced by any socialist ones.
All the military weapons were made by private companies, for profit.

When it comes to liberal and conservative, originally there were not in conflict.
Liberal means one who defends individual liberties.
Conservative is one who limits government powers, so individual liberties can be protected.
The only definition of liberal and conservative that are in opposition is when one speaks of how to interpret the constitution. If one takes a liberal view of what the federal government is allowed to do, that differs from what a conservative would think.

Apparently someone has trouble reading today

I said that despots pick and choose what they like about philosophies so that they suit their own purpose. For example, a Marxist never adopts Marxism for the sake of Marxism Marxism is never the goal. The goal is merely control. So if they violate the ivory tower definitions of Marxism along the way, then academics merely wash their hands of that despot being a Marxist saying he did not meet all the criteria. But at the end of the day, the aspects of Marxism they did adopt were routinely ignored by them.

For example, Hitler did not own industry, which was one of the ivory tower definitions of socialism. Hitler once said, why nationalize industry when you nationalize the people? Hitler knew that he did not need to own them in name to control them. He was smart enough to realize that leaving the experts in place to run industry was superior to letting mindless bureaucrats do it. Most have learned this lesson except for places like Venezuela. But today, people like Bernie Sanders refer to Europe as socialist even though they allow private industry just like Hitler as he uses the same term socialist to describe places like Venezuela as socialist. But Bernie would NEVER call Nazi Germany socialist, even though it is part of their name and even though they followed many socialist type polices. Why? Cuz it's bad PR for his ideology.

No, the reason Hitler was not socialist is because he was told what to do by the aristocracy, military, and corporations. That is a classic capitalist oligarchy. Nothing remotely socialist about it. Hitler also never said he was socialist or supported socialism in any way.

Europe is more socialist because it does have socialist enterprises, like health care is socialist in Europe. Food and utilities also are highly subsidized. The fact there is also private enterprise in Europe is no contradiction because socialism never precludes capitalism. It is only capitalism that tries to preclude socialism.

Again, socialism is NOT part of National Socialism. The whole point of National Socialism was completely anti-socialist in all ways.

But I forgot there was one socialist company Hitler started, and that was VW. It was done largely by capitalist like Ferdinand Porsche, but was a government owned company.

As for Venezuela, they are just corrupt, not socialist. And corruption is inherently capitalist. Just ask yourself, was Stalin motivated by the desire for personal wealth and power? If the answer is yes, then Stalin was a capitalist.

 

[Rigby5]

But why did he embrace socialism?

Because socialism was populism, at that time and place. They were virtually interchangeable. (And it wasn't true socialism anyway... just as China is not a Republic. So the point you are trying to make is weak sauce.) Nowadays, in the dumbest developed country on the planet (the US), populism often means just appealing the the worst in people, the way Trump did.

No, nothing at all remotely socialist about National Socialism or Hitler.
National Socialism was totally anti-socialist.

That is a flat out lie.

Who does this sound like?

We ask that government undertake the obligation above all of providing citizens with adequate opportunity for employment and earning a living. The activities of the individual must not be allowed to clash with the interests of the community, but must take place within the confines and be for the good of all. Therefore, we demand: ... an end to the power of financial interest. We demand profit sharing in big business. We demand a broad extension of care for the aged. We demand ... the greatest possible consideration of small business in the purchases of the national, state, and municipal governments. In order to make possible to every capable and industrious [citizen] the attainment of higher education and thus the achievement of a post of leadership, the government must provide an all-around enlargement of our system of public education.... We demand the education at government expense of gifted children of poor parents.... The government must undertake the improvement of public health -- by protecting mother and child, by prohibiting child labor -- by the greatest possible support for all groups concerned with the physical education of youth. [W]e combat the ... materialistic spirit within and without us, and are convinced that a permanent recovery of our people can only proceed from within on the foundation of The Common Good Before the Individual Good.

Give to us by the National Socialist party of Nazi Germany.

And who does this sound like?

Socialists, we are opponents of the Jews, because we see, in the Hebrews, the incarnation of capitalism, of the misuse of the nation’s goods.
more Joseph Paul Goebbels quotes

National Socialism is a religion. All we lack is a religious genius capable of uprooting outmoded religious practices and putting new ones in their place. We lack traditions and ritual. One day soon National Socialism will be the religion of all Germans. My Party is my church, and I believe I serve the Lord best if I do his will, and liberate my oppressed people from the fetters of slavery. That is my gospel.
more Joseph Paul Goebbels quotes

We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions.
more Adolf Hitler quotes

This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilised nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!
more Adolf Hitler quotes

They were among the first to also have socialized medicine.

Wrong.
Hitler was not a wealthy or powerful man.
He gained his power from those who hired him.
Originally he was hired by Rohem, who was a socialist.
His organization, the SA, was for WWI veterans, and he was after socialist benefits for them.
So then Hitler was too when Rohem hired Hitler into the SA.
But after 1933, when Hindenburg was considering appointing Hitler Chancellor, it was conditional on Hitler giving up all socialist ties. That resulted in the "Night of the Long Knives", where all the socialists were rounded up and killed. That included Rohem.
And from that day forth, Hitler no longer was a socialist in any way.

The contrast was obvious if you read any history.
For example, when Hitler was a spokesman for the SA, he was totally against gun control, and worked to ensure the SA remained armed, as a marksmanship oriented organization of veterans.
Then after Hitler had the SA all arrested and shot, only then did Hitler support gun control.
Although by then gun control was pointless since there no longer was any opposition left.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

https://www.princeton.edu/~starr/articles/articles07/Starr.WhyLiberalismWorks.pdf Its the best I could get my computer is acting up

Liberalism is VERY distinct from leftism/communism/Marxism/socialism (all the same fucking thing).

I am a liberal. "Liberals" are not liberal. They are fucking commies.

 

[lg325]

One of the points I wanted to make last night before my computer went nuts. Is under the definition of liberal, Ronald Reagan would be a liberal. Thanks for the post all.

 

[Rigby5]

https://www.princeton.edu/~starr/articles/articles07/Starr.WhyLiberalismWorks.pdf Its the best I could get my computer is acting up

Liberalism is VERY distinct from leftism/communism/Marxism/socialism (all the same fucking thing).

I am a liberal. "Liberals" are not liberal. They are fucking commies.

Liberal means one who defends individual liberties.
Socialism and communism are economic terms about how much government should create or regulate business, so is unrelated.
Marxism is a very abstract concept of how to prevent dangerous economic monopolies when the industrial revolution wiped out cottage industries in the 1830s. Marxism was sort of made irrelevant by unions. Except that unions are all disappearing these days.