Russia is Not An Aggressor, and Ukraine is Not a Victim

[Care4all]

^ off-topic deflection

In a way it's not off topic lord long.... Because Putin says he was afraid of NATO countries getting closer, as if these countries with the rest of NATO would attack him, and there have been no attempts for any such thing....?

 

[Lord Long Rod]

That's Russian propaganda, and you likely know it is....

From their perspective it is not.

 

[Lord Long Rod]

All of this ^ is true, yet on the other hand, we are still enemies with them. Im always down to **** over Russia. Youll never beat the 1980's out of me. Im stuck in that mindset permanently.

Agree 100%. It is just absurd to mindlessly label Russia as the bad actor yet not knowing why.

 

[Lord Long Rod]

Maybe. But it doesn’t justify their criminal behavior.

I agree.

 

[AZrailwhale]

So, what nations have invaded Russia lately? Please list them for us.

After that, we can list the nations Russia has invaded. It will be a long list.

The last nation to invade Russia was a Russian ally. Russia and Germany allied to invade and destroy Poland. Russia had been providing Germany with war material, oil and food for long before that. Russia provided nazi Germany facilities to develop all the weapons the Germans used to attack the WAllies.

 

[Lord Long Rod]

Does Russia think NATO expansion is to attack Russia? Why would Russia be worried about the NATO expansion?

Ukraine was not being accepted in to NATO, when he attacked Ukraine. NATO didn't think the Ukraine was ready to be a part of it....

Now though, Putin has lead NATO to think again.

NATO: Why Russia has a problem with its eastward expansion – DW – 02/23/2022

After its Soviet enemy crumbled, NATO kept growing. Whether that helped ensure peace or constitutes a threat is still debated today — and plays into Russian actions towards Ukraine.

www.dw.com

Ukraine war follows decades of warnings that NATO expansion into Eastern Europe could provoke Russia

Lost in the outrage over Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is the fact that many in the West have long warned that widespread NATO expansion into Eastern Europe could spark just such a conflict.

theconversation.com

I am not arguing that Russia’s world view is correct, just that it is a much more complex subject than many believe.

 

[Lord Long Rod]

In a way it's not off topic lord long.... Because Putin says he was afraid of NATO countries getting closer, as if these countries with the rest of NATO would attack him, and there have been no attempts for any such thing....?

It is not fear driving Pootin’. It’s a security issue. Imagine Russia setting up a military base in, say, Cuba. That would clearly be something we would not be happy with.

 

[Godboy]

Agree 100%. It is just absurd to mindlessly label Russia as the bad actor yet not knowing why.

Yeah, acting like Russia had no reason to do it is stupid. They had plenty of reasons to do it. Still, **** Russia.

 

[Care4all]

It is not fear driving Pootin’. It’s a security issue. Imagine Russia setting up a military base in, say, Cuba. That would clearly be something we would not be happy with.

We didn't blow up Cuba and the innocent people there in to smithereens to settle the problem....

 

[postman]

We didn't blow up Cuba and the innocent people there in to smithereens to settle the problem....

But we came close.
The generals got it wrong, and told Kennedy that Castro didn't have the launch codes, so it was safe to invade.

 

[Care4all]

But we came close.
The generals got it wrong, and told Kennedy that Castro didn't have the launch codes, so it was safe to invade.

Yeah, and with good reason we came close....!

Did the Ukraine or the USA in Ukraine have missiles pointed at Moscow, when Putin chose to slaughter the Ukrainian people, and destroy their country and infrastructure? Not that I am aware...?

This type of comparison used by Lord Long, is not comparable imo.

 

[sparky]

Except Russia was the aggressor.

from the OP>

And, of course, there was Ukraine. Never in the realm of international relations was there a state that acted so consistently against its national interests. It put itself in grave danger when it announced its intention to join NATO in 2004, violating the 1997 Treaty on Friendship between Ukraine and the Russian Federation. This Treaty specifically addressed Ukrainian neutrality, stating at section 6, page 148:

Each High Contracting Party shall refrain from participating in, or supporting, any actions directed against the other High Contracting Party, and shall not conclude any treaties with third countries against the other Party. Neither Party shall allow its territory to be used to the detriment of the security of the other Party.

Would the United States accept the presence of Russian military bases on its borders? As a matter of fact, it did not accept them even 1,500 miles from its borders. In 1983, President Reagan ordered the invasion of Grenada due to concerns that the construction of an airport by Cubans could potentially be utilized by Soviet forces.

20 yrs prior was the cuban missile crisis .......


~S~

 

[luiza]

This was when we could have changed the trajectory. But nothing was done due to ignorance and the outright rejection of Cold War strategic norms among the new foreign affairs establishment.

You were doing OK up to that point .

But then on whose authority or popular vote might you have acted differently ?
The Bully Boy's Club?
The, NeoCons Know Best , club?

 

[sparky]

the galloping globalists.........

the nato narcissists .....?

the blackwater bourgeois....?



~S~

 

[postman]

from the OP>

And, of course, there was Ukraine. Never in the realm of international relations was there a state that acted so consistently against its national interests. It put itself in grave danger when it announced its intention to join NATO in 2004, violating the 1997 Treaty on Friendship between Ukraine and the Russian Federation. This Treaty specifically addressed Ukrainian neutrality, stating at section 6, page 148:



Would the United States accept the presence of Russian military bases on its borders? As a matter of fact, it did not accept them even 1,500 miles from its borders. In 1983, President Reagan ordered the invasion of Grenada due to concerns that the construction of an airport by Cubans could potentially be utilized by Soviet forces.

20 yrs prior was the cuban missile crisis .......


~S~

The Cuban missile crisis was about putting nuclear missiles into countries near the others border (back when long range ICMB's were not very accurate) The USA talked Cuba, while the USSR talked Turkey.

Today even if Ukraine were to join NATO it would still be prohibited from housing nuclear weapons.

The Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, commonly known as the Non-Proliferation Treaty or NPT, is an international treaty whose objective is to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons and weapons technology,

the NPT non-nuclear-weapon states agree never to acquire nuclear weapons

 

[Lord Long Rod]

You were doing OK up to that point .

But then on whose authority or popular vote might you have acted differently ?
The Bully Boy's Club?
The, NeoCons Know Best , club?

Noted foreign relations scholar, luiza, disagrees with me. How will I sleep at night?!?

 

[Lord Long Rod]

We didn't blow up Cuba and the innocent people there in to smithereens to settle the problem....

Jesus …

 

[BackAgain]

from the OP>

And, of course, there was Ukraine. Never in the realm of international relations was there a state that acted so consistently against its national interests. It put itself in grave danger when it announced its intention to join NATO in 2004, violating the 1997 Treaty on Friendship between Ukraine and the Russian Federation. This Treaty specifically addressed Ukrainian neutrality, stating at section 6, page 148:



Would the United States accept the presence of Russian military bases on its borders? As a matter of fact, it did not accept them even 1,500 miles from its borders. In 1983, President Reagan ordered the invasion of Grenada due to concerns that the construction of an airport by Cubans could potentially be utilized by Soviet forces.

20 yrs prior was the cuban missile crisis .......


~S~

So? Ukraine didn’t case Russia. Russia invaded Ukraine and waged its war of aggression largely against the civilian population.

You can stand on your head and spin like a top; but you can’t successfully rewrite what happened and maintain an cred in the process.