Lets look at how GM is really doing. Another Liberal myth

[JRK]

The bailouts where all about greasing corporatism, which has about as much allegiamce to America as any given whore

once one comes to terms with that, we can talk about federal tax payer backed socialism

~S~

Tarp the way GWB used it was a loan
that 200 billion was the best 200 billion the tax payer has ever loaned out
GM was pure socialism
Chrysler, same

GM still owes us every penny we loaned them in all realty, by the book about 26 billion with GMAC 10+ billion
Bailout List: Banks, Auto Companies, and More | Eye on the Bailout | ProPublica

great link

 

[JakeStarkey]

SNIP

The GOP can beat Obama without JRK's nonsense.

Gm Doing Business Globally Jobs

 

[JRK]

SNIP

The GOP can beat Obama without JRK's nonsense.

Gm Doing Business Globally Jobs

Jake that move created 0 jobs
People would buy a different make
Jake I am not trying to change any-ones mind about who they vote for, I am just informing the
un informaed

Also did you say that the GOP can beat BHO?
You changing your mind about him Jake?

 

[JakeStarkey]

You, JRK, are uninformed on this issue. You are the one voting for Obama, aren't you, JRK? I wish you would change your mind and vote for my candidate, Romney.

 

[JRK]

You, JRK, are uninformed on this issue. You are the one voting for Obama, aren't you, JRK? I wish you would change your mind and vote for my candidate, Romney.

I hope you do vote for Romney Jake
What am I uninformed on here Jake?

I will say you have impressed me with your mature approach to these debates Jake

 

[Foxfyre]

Again
there is no GM without the tax payer
Every penny they own as well as every stock that is there market cap is tax payers wealth
That stock is really worthless as collateral because if you had to sell a large portion of it to make a payment like people who have real loans do, it would plummet its all ready extremely low value

There assets added will probably not reach what they owe us, if so they could have went chapter 11 without us you would think

General Motors Company: NYSE:GM quotes & news - Google Finance

look at the stock performance also

That's the thing. If the government had stayed out of it, GM almost certainly would have declared bankruptcy. Then it could have reorganized, renegotiated union contracts, and otherwise cleaned up its act so that it could have become profitable again. The way the government handled it ensured that it will likely never be profitable again. At least UNTIL it declares a real bankruptcy and goes throught the necessary process of reorganization and sheds itself of unsustainable contracts, etc.

How much money, pain, recession, and swelling national debt could the federal government have saved us all had they just allowed the practical natural free market solutions to have worked? It would have been hugely painful but it was anyway. And we would now have it all behind us and would likely we well out of the recession and prospering again. And a responsible Congress would have repaired Fannie and Freddie and other regulatory processes necessary to re-establish fiscal sanity.

As it is, all the old problems are still there, we have added mega trillions to the national debt will trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see, and no solutions in sight. While the recession plods along.

GM did not have the assets to survive BK
They would have been 100% liquidated, it was 100% chapter 7

GWB saved them actually
They had enough assets to cover the 20 billion he gave them Dec 2008. The agreement was that no more and there were to have a plan in place by 3/2009
We know what really happened after that

Did he? Or did we have yet another albatross money pit hung around the taxpayer's neck? If GM had been forced into Chapter 7, how do we know there would not have been investers willing to buy up the discounted assets? At any rate, are all other auto manufacturers running at full capacity? I think not. And they could have filled any holes left by GM. As it was GM sold off much of its production, laid off tens of thousands of employees, and closed thousands of its dealerships. I don't see how Chapter 7 would have been all that much more traumatic.

And the taxpayer wouldn't be out mega billions and on the hook for mega billions more.

 

[JRK]

That's the thing. If the government had stayed out of it, GM almost certainly would have declared bankruptcy. Then it could have reorganized, renegotiated union contracts, and otherwise cleaned up its act so that it could have become profitable again. The way the government handled it ensured that it will likely never be profitable again. At least UNTIL it declares a real bankruptcy and goes throught the necessary process of reorganization and sheds itself of unsustainable contracts, etc.

How much money, pain, recession, and swelling national debt could the federal government have saved us all had they just allowed the practical natural free market solutions to have worked? It would have been hugely painful but it was anyway. And we would now have it all behind us and would likely we well out of the recession and prospering again. And a responsible Congress would have repaired Fannie and Freddie and other regulatory processes necessary to re-establish fiscal sanity.

As it is, all the old problems are still there, we have added mega trillions to the national debt will trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see, and no solutions in sight. While the recession plods along.

GM did not have the assets to survive BK
They would have been 100% liquidated, it was 100% chapter 7

GWB saved them actually
They had enough assets to cover the 20 billion he gave them Dec 2008. The agreement was that no more and there were to have a plan in place by 3/2009
We know what really happened after that

Did he? Or did we have yet another albatross money pit hung around the taxpayer's neck? If GM had been forced into Chapter 7, how do we know there would not have been investers willing to buy up the discounted assets? At any rate, are all other auto manufacturers running at full capacity? I think not. And they could have filled any holes left by GM. As it was GM sold off much of its production, laid off tens of thousands of employees, and closed thousands of its dealerships. I don't see how Chapter 7 would have been all that much more traumatic.

And the taxpayer wouldn't be out mega billions and on the hook for mega billions more.

That was the problem, No-one wanted GM

the buzzards wanted the cash, Obama kicked them to the curb with the tax payers wealth and ignoring BK laws, a first
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...p7yGBQ&usg=AFQjCNEViN_40PDyfJ9SuLJRhCEtLtYWzQ

Yota, Ford, Honda, etc.. would have filled 100% of the hole GM left like a buzzard on carrion
Those laid off employees would have been replaced by those buzzards who would have filled those voids, bottom line is Ford has not one extra person on there pay-roll

1110 GM dealerships were closed any-way
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...6dCdCA&usg=AFQjCNFcCymlDc5Wu7oVxtaE60sfxxyDzw

Chapter 7 means the end, GM was done, they had 0 options, Dec 2009
from Bloomberg:

General Motors Corp., burning cash as U.S. sales slide, is being pushed closer to bankruptcy as it waits to learn whether the auto industry will win a new round of government loans.

Only federal aid can prevent a collapse of the biggest U.S. automaker, analysts including Buckingham Research Group’s Joseph Amaturo said before the shares tumbled today for a fifth straight day. Reorganizing in court protection also may not be possible, because the credit crunch has dried up financing.

“Strategic bankruptcy is not an option for GM,” said Mark Oline, a credit analyst with Fitch Inc. in Chicago. “This is an issue of operating or not operating.”

The prospect of a forced liquidation raises the stakes for GM’s quest for new federal borrowing after saying on Nov. 7 it may run out of operating cash as soon as year’s end. GM had $16.2 billion on hand as of Sept. 30, down from $21 billion at the end of June, and needs $11 billion to pay its monthly bills.

“A bankruptcy wouldn’t address our immediate liquidity concerns,” said Renee Rashid-Merem, a spokeswoman for Detroit- based GM. “It’s not an option for GM because it creates more problems than it solves.”


In this world, you don’t go Chapter 11 reorganization,” Keller said in an interview. “You go Chapter 7 liquidation.”

This guy claimed 2.5 million jobs lost, very good article

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...hoiOBQ&usg=AFQjCNFV0Sym2IE47mjFH2wFjiBGgrOG_Q

GWB gave them a bridge to survive with the assets they had as collateral. They were suppose to have fixed the bleeding bu March 09 or else
Or else was BHO with unlimited tax payers wealth (see bond holders getting the shaft)

any-way, there it is

 

[JRK]

Let me add some thoughts here
GM surviving on tax payers wealth and what would have happened if not is pure speculation from me as well as those who dis agree with me
We will never known as far as jobs lost. it is pure speculation (not chapter 7, that was going to happen)

I can say that a person who was going to buy a corvette would have bought a Mustang cobra, so-on, but who really knows
There is so much with this story we will never know because the tax payer and GWB prevented it from happening, no-one else (congress voted the help down, GWB used tarp funds to save them)

In my opinion, I wish no-one any harm, but in my opinion his worst decision as president GWB ever made

Enron failed over-night
we survived with 1000s of jobs lost and billions in wealth lost. No-one was screaming to save Enron, those 30,000 jobs and billions in wealth in retirement plans. no matter how you get there, broke is broke
Google

My issue with this entire event is the lying and the UAW getting billions of wealth from the tax payer when the rest of the world, like the Enron's and others that have went chapter 7 got nothing, ever

The worst thing in this entire event is the UAW and GM got rewarded for pricing then selves out of the market with Legacy cost and selling cars that where not making profits

Before on UAW member gets pissed at me, GM made this mess, they should have sold there product at a profit
If that meant it eliminated 95% of the UAW jobs, that's the way it should have been for all of you. Your labor cost made a Cadillac to sell for 100k, then so be it

The tax payer did not create this mess
BHO lying about this makes it worse as GMs CEO lying about the same (GM pays tax payer back early)

Allot of innocent people have been hurt from this event. i will never own another Chevrolet
one of the 1100 dealerships that closed was in my home town. It had been here my entire life

 

[JakeStarkey]

The auto industry has turned around, and you are complaining, JRK?

Tell us in ten words oir less why. Just a basic assertion, because most of your postings above, taken together, don't make much sense.

 

[code1211]

Compared to Solyandra, those are GREAT returns

That is funny except it cost 10s of thousands of jobs it would have moved to the south as well as Ford picking up some of the new work
Most would have moved to Toyota, Honda etc...
All this has done is save the UAW from total collapse

I want to make a comment for the record about the UAW
GM blew it, not the UAW. Now hold on
GM should have sold there product at cost plus profit
If that meant the yearly output only required 100 people from the UAW to assemble it, so be it

What a company does to put itself out of business is stupid, but not illegal.

The way the bailout and the contrived bankruptcy was structured was illegal and screwed everyone except the UAW.

This was the work of a political hack, Obama, directing tax dollars to one of his prime constituencies proving, AGAIN, that this jerk is bought and paid for and that he works only for those who pay him under the table.

He and this is a disgrace.

We should have bailed out GM. We should not have done it in the way it was done.

 

[sparky]

The bailouts where all about greasing corporatism, which has about as much allegiamce to America as any given whore

once one comes to terms with that, we can talk about federal tax payer backed socialism

~S~

Tarp the way GWB used it was a loan
that 200 billion was the best 200 billion the tax payer has ever loaned out

Very controverstail.....

The TARP restructuring exercise morphed into a capital injection and management protection operation, with the Fed, OCC and FDIC essentially telling the top 50 or so banks that they had to take the government shares to “boost confidence.” But there was no restructuring because the $1 trillion in TARP money appropriated so generously by Congress was insufficient to fill the proverbial hole created by the collapse of the real estate market.

Thus we muddle along. At the end of 2009, the Financial Accounting Standards Board changed the accounting rules to allow banks to hide a large portion of their losses from sight of investors and regulators. You can see the effect of the FASB machinations in the industry ratings on the IRA web site. Note the large shift in the number of banks and amount of assets from the “F” category at the end of 2009 and to better ratings buckets in Q1 2010.

So if we look at the fact that Treasury has recovered 75% of the funds advanced under TARP and other rescues, do we feel better? No. Let’s go down the list of financial and economic “costs” which must be offset against the alleged recoveries by Treasury.

Christopher Whalen | Analysis & Opinion | Reuters.com


~S~

 

[sparky]

The Truth about the American Condition | Economy In Crisis

Much of the United States is clueless about the treacherous state of our economy. The delusions being sold to the American public are only serving to further hasten our demise

 

[JRK]

Sparky short of buying up millions of mortgages that are underwater, I am not sure what else the tax payer could to help this economy

Now

We have spent 2.1 trillion dollars more in the last three years than we were budgeted to do and did in 07-08 with little results to show for it. Could have made a huge swing at it

I wonder what the real cost of each UAW job saved for the 50 billion we spent (GM has paid us back 0. the first payment was from the tarp fund, the second was from a stock offering the tax payer paid for)

 

[JakeStarkey]

Sparky short of buying up millions of mortgages that are underwater, I am not sure what else the tax payer could to help this economy

Now

We have spent 2.1 trillion dollars more in the last three years than we were budgeted to do and did in 07-08 with little results to show for it. Could have made a huge swing at it

I wonder what the real cost of each UAW job saved for the 50 billion we spent (GM has paid us back 0. the first payment was from the tarp fund, the second was from a stock offering the tax payer paid for)

GM has paid the taxpayers back, despite the accounting method.

 

[sparky]

Sparky short of buying up millions of mortgages that are underwater, I am not sure what else the tax payer could to help this economy

Now

We have spent 2.1 trillion dollars more in the last three years than we were budgeted to do and did in 07-08 with little results to show for it. Could have made a huge swing at it

we spent a load of $$$ , but not as much of it went to intended targets JRK

that's what happens when we let banks play with tax $$$'s

I wonder what the real cost of each UAW job saved for the 50 billion we spent (GM has paid us back 0. the first payment was from the tarp fund, the second was from a stock offering the tax payer paid for

i wonder if we would have had to bail them out at all had we had VAT, and protective trade policies 30 years ago.....

~S~

 

[JRK]

Sparky short of buying up millions of mortgages that are underwater, I am not sure what else the tax payer could to help this economy

Now

We have spent 2.1 trillion dollars more in the last three years than we were budgeted to do and did in 07-08 with little results to show for it. Could have made a huge swing at it

we spent a load of $$$ , but not as much of it went to intended targets JRK

that's what happens when we let banks play with tax $$$'s

I wonder what the real cost of each UAW job saved for the 50 billion we spent (GM has paid us back 0. the first payment was from the tarp fund, the second was from a stock offering the tax payer paid for

i wonder if we would have had to bail them out at all had we had VAT, and protective trade policies 30 years ago.....

~S~

Bailout List: Banks, Auto Companies, and More | Eye on the Bailout | ProPublica
This is a great link that shows who got what and who owes us what

Union Wages Broke GM
There building Toyota's, Honda's, etc... in the south. These companies have no need to import
Toyota's truck sales are thru the roof

What GM should have done was scaled down to sell the product at the price legacy cost forced them to do, its GMs faulr, no-one elses

 

[JakeStarkey]

JRK, you make assertions, so let's see the numbers, then make the links to union and non-union pay.

Remember, your opinion means nothing. We need objective numbers, figures, and conclusions.

 

[JRK]

JRK, you make assertions, so let's see the numbers, then make the links to union and non-union pay.

Remember, your opinion means nothing. We need objective numbers, figures, and conclusions.

Okay
Foreign auto manufacturers and suppliers already have a massive presence in the U.S. Many of these new transplant factories are in the Sun Belt: South Carolina (BMW), Mississippi (Nissan ( NSANY - news - people )), Tennessee (Nissan), Alabama (Mercedes, Honda ( HMC - news - people ) and Hyundai), Texas (Toyota ( TM - news - people )), and Kentucky (Toyota). The foreigners do have a few plants in the North, too: Honda in Ohio and Indiana, and Toyota and Subaru-Toyota in Indiana.

Detroit pay and benefits ran about $55 an hour, vs. an average of $45 for the transplants, with Korean automakers paying less. Those "legacy" costs--health care and pension payments to retirees--add another $16 an hour to the domestics' costs. So Detroit's total labor runs about $70 to $75 an hour, vs. $49 for Japanese transplants.

In the current crisis, the union has been making big concessions, but it's too late.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...Ke9Nkb&usg=AFQjCNFwm3qoAHhzFGGWmvGQTWMakeogtg

The biggest myth is its about wages, wages are not that much different, Its legacy cost
It is the same thing we are having trouble with in the federal govt

Yota has 401ks
UAW has retirement (or they did)
guy retires with UAW he is till on the the taxpayers payroll
From Yota he has a 401k and Yota is done with that expense

 

[JakeStarkey]

Is not the legacy cost tied into the golden pensions and parachutes of the biggies being paid before that of the workers?

Rework the payoff: pay the workers before the executives. If anything is left, then the executives can be paid.

And you have not demonstrated that divesting the pension system "is too late."

 

[JRK]

Is not the legacy cost tied into the golden pensions and parachutes of the biggies being paid before that of the workers?

Rework the payoff: pay the workers before the executives. If anything is left, then the executives can be paid.

And you have not demonstrated that divesting the pension system "is too late."

Jake its to late. There on the hook
Jake what those people are making is not much different than most execs, NOT ALL, but most

I want to make something very clear
I am a huge supporter of the trade unions and have managed projects that were manned with union employees
One other item
GM should have priced there product to have made profit and let the people decide what they wanted to buy, adjust there labor same