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Let’s chat about the atheist religion.

ding

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But I don’t have any desire to enlighten you. Nor do I have any need to do it either because you are here searching for it and you dint even know it.
So why are you here, wasting your time with a non-believer?
I am discussing something I believe in. Isn’t that what people typically do? Discuss things they like? Discuss things that interest them? Discuss things they believe in?

By comparison you are discussing something you don’t believe in? You don’t like religion do you? Does religion interest you? Does God interest you? So I have two choices in seeing what you are doing here. The first one is you are searching for God. The other ones isn’t a good look on you. So I won’t even go there. Unless of course you believe Breezewood or Harmonica are good looks.
I don't believe in your God and don't follow any religion. Mankind has always had a god or gods and religions. Why? That is what I want to know. What is it in the character of men and societies that they must have a father. When will we grow up? Or will we always need some to tell us what to do?
And you have a violent reaction to it and need to tell others about it, right?
 

alang1216

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Yes. I do. Do you know what is actually required for inanimate matter to make the leap to a living organism?
No one does but I'm guessing it is a much simpler process than you think. Organisms, e.g. cells, are extraordinarily complex and likely took a billion or so years AFTER life evolved. That first life may have been little more than self-replicating molecules that were subjected to the forces of natural selection and evolution.
 

alang1216

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I don't believe in your God and don't follow any religion. Mankind has always had a god or gods and religions. Why? That is what I want to know. What is it in the character of men and societies that they must have a father. When will we grow up? Or will we always need some to tell us what to do?
And you have a violent reaction to it and need to tell others about it, right?
No violence, just a quest for truth. And if I can share what truths I've learned along the way, I feel obligated to speak up. Faith is fine, truth is fine, lies are not fine. Which would you want your faith to be built on?

If you were dying of cancer would you want the doctor to tell you the truth or tell you everything will be alright?
 

ding

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Yes. I do. Do you know what is actually required for inanimate matter to make the leap to a living organism?
No one does but I'm guessing it is a much simpler process than you think. Organisms, e.g. cells, are extraordinarily complex and likely took a billion or so years AFTER life evolved. That first life may have been little more than self-replicating molecules that were subjected to the forces of natural selection and evolution.
Have you actually ever watched a YouTube video of the inner workings of cells and the amount of information that is processed and acted upon? Because the complexity involved is insane. I don’t think you appreciate the leap in complexity from inanimate dumb matter to living organisms. The same can be said for the leap from simple cells to conscious intelligence. It is literally insane. You are dismissing differences that are meaningful when it comes to discussing the origin of existence being intelligence or not. If the origin of existence is intelligence then it shouldn’t be a surprise that existence created intelligence. In fact, intelligence should be expected to create intelligence. And since the very nature of existence seems to be geared to producing intelligence I don’t see how anyone can not see the hand of a Creator at work. However it is that you see him. I see him as love, truth and logic. And that you and others can’t logically see how these are the attributes of existence, I can only assume you have never made a serious examination. Which is why you dismiss the creation of existence from nothing and dismiss the incredible leaps of complexity in the evolution of space and time as you are doing here.

I see God as an actual presence. A presence without form that is the source of all reality. Such that the physical world was willed into existence to create beings that know and create to share in their experiences.

The very nature of existence is information what is information if not consciousness without form.
 

ding

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I don't believe in your God and don't follow any religion. Mankind has always had a god or gods and religions. Why? That is what I want to know. What is it in the character of men and societies that they must have a father. When will we grow up? Or will we always need some to tell us what to do?
And you have a violent reaction to it and need to tell others about it, right?
No violence, just a quest for truth. And if I can share what truths I've learned along the way, I feel obligated to speak up. Faith is fine, truth is fine, lies are not fine. Which would you want your faith to be built on?

If you were dying of cancer would you want the doctor to tell you the truth or tell you everything will be alright?
No offense but I don’t buy that. I’m sure that’s what you have convinced yourself as doing but that’s not my observation.

My observation is that you have not argued both sides of the coin.

And I believe the reason is because you can’t reconcile how good comes from bad or the role subjectivity plays in making reality manifest.
 

alang1216

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Yes. I do. Do you know what is actually required for inanimate matter to make the leap to a living organism?
No one does but I'm guessing it is a much simpler process than you think. Organisms, e.g. cells, are extraordinarily complex and likely took a billion or so years AFTER life evolved. That first life may have been little more than self-replicating molecules that were subjected to the forces of natural selection and evolution.
Have you actually ever watched a YouTube video of the inner workings of cells and the amount of information that is processed and acted upon? Because the complexity involved is insane. I don’t think you appreciate the leap in complexity from inanimate dumb matter to living organisms. The same can be said for the leap from simple cells to conscious intelligence. It is literally insane. You are dismissing differences that are meaningful when it comes to discussing the origin of existence being intelligence or not. If the origin of existence is intelligence then it shouldn’t be a surprise that existence created intelligence. In fact, intelligence should be expected to create intelligence. And since the very nature of existence seems to be geared to producing intelligence I don’t see how anyone can not see the hand of a Creator at work. However it is that you see him. I see him as love, truth and logic. And that you and others can’t logically see how these are the attributes of existence, I can only assume you have never made a serious examination. Which is why you dismiss the creation of existence from nothing and dismiss the incredible leaps of complexity in the evolution of space and time as you are doing here.

I see God as an actual presence. A presence without form that is the source of all reality. Such that the physical world was willed into existence to create beings that know and create to share in their experiences.

The very nature of existence is information what is information if not consciousness without form.
Your intelligence is a very slow operator. He waited for billions of years after the creation of life before he got around to creating intelligence. Obviously it wasn't very important to him/her/it. In this case the 6 days of genesis makes more sense.
 

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Not impossible, merely very improbable. Of course, given enough time, the improbable becomes inevitable.
Do you have any idea what is actually involved?
Do you have any idea how much time is involved?
Yes. I do. Do you know what is actually required for inanimate matter to make the leap to a living organism?
There is an inanimate analog to biological evolution that preceded and likely led to life. Forms of complex compounds effectively compete for resources: precursor elements and compounds. Those that can do so more efficiently, more quickly and end up in a more stable configuration come to dominate the environment.
 

alang1216

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My observation is that you have not argued both sides of the coin.

And I believe the reason is because you can’t reconcile how good comes from bad or the role subjectivity plays in making reality manifest.
I should argue for what I don't believe?

I have no problem with good coming from bad, the whole "what doesn't kill me...". I'm not sure I understand "the role subjectivity plays in making reality manifest".
 

ding

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Not impossible, merely very improbable. Of course, given enough time, the improbable becomes inevitable.
Do you have any idea what is actually involved?
Do you have any idea how much time is involved?
Yes. I do. Do you know what is actually required for inanimate matter to make the leap to a living organism?
There is an inanimate analog to biological evolution that preceded and likely led to life. Forms of complex compounds effectively compete for resources: precursor elements and compounds. Those that can do so more efficiently, more quickly and end up in a more stable configuration come to dominate the environment.
Technically all matter/energy evolved since its creation.
 

ding

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My observation is that you have not argued both sides of the coin.

And I believe the reason is because you can’t reconcile how good comes from bad or the role subjectivity plays in making reality manifest.
I should argue for what I don't believe?

I have no problem with good coming from bad, the whole "what doesn't kill me...". I'm not sure I understand "the role subjectivity plays in making reality manifest".
Only if you are looking for truth. Then it’s not a bad idea to argue both sides of a coin, right?
 

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Yes. I do. Do you know what is actually required for inanimate matter to make the leap to a living organism?
No one does but I'm guessing it is a much simpler process than you think. Organisms, e.g. cells, are extraordinarily complex and likely took a billion or so years AFTER life evolved. That first life may have been little more than self-replicating molecules that were subjected to the forces of natural selection and evolution.
Have you actually ever watched a YouTube video of the inner workings of cells and the amount of information that is processed and acted upon? Because the complexity involved is insane. I don’t think you appreciate the leap in complexity from inanimate dumb matter to living organisms. The same can be said for the leap from simple cells to conscious intelligence. It is literally insane. You are dismissing differences that are meaningful when it comes to discussing the origin of existence being intelligence or not. If the origin of existence is intelligence then it shouldn’t be a surprise that existence created intelligence. In fact, intelligence should be expected to create intelligence. And since the very nature of existence seems to be geared to producing intelligence I don’t see how anyone can not see the hand of a Creator at work. However it is that you see him. I see him as love, truth and logic. And that you and others can’t logically see how these are the attributes of existence, I can only assume you have never made a serious examination. Which is why you dismiss the creation of existence from nothing and dismiss the incredible leaps of complexity in the evolution of space and time as you are doing here.

I see God as an actual presence. A presence without form that is the source of all reality. Such that the physical world was willed into existence to create beings that know and create to share in their experiences.

The very nature of existence is information what is information if not consciousness without form.
Your intelligence is a very slow operator. He waited for billions of years after the creation of life before he got around to creating intelligence. Obviously it wasn't very important to him/her/it. In this case the 6 days of genesis makes more sense.
This is your argument. Seriously? It’s almost like you are looking for reasons to rationalize your bias.

There are any number of cliches and real world examples I could use to prove that good things come to those who wait, but I believe the better response is that he was making sure that you would have billions of years of evidence at your fingertips to discover and know his glory so that you would be without excuse.

Apparently he should have taken longer.
 

alang1216

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There is an inanimate analog to biological evolution that preceded and likely led to life. Forms of complex compounds effectively compete for resources: precursor elements and compounds. Those that can do so more efficiently, more quickly and end up in a more stable configuration come to dominate the environment.
Technically all matter/energy evolved since its creation.
Really? That's news to me. I'd have thought the basic building blocks of the universe, atoms and the speed of light, have never changed.
 

alang1216

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Yes. I do. Do you know what is actually required for inanimate matter to make the leap to a living organism?
No one does but I'm guessing it is a much simpler process than you think. Organisms, e.g. cells, are extraordinarily complex and likely took a billion or so years AFTER life evolved. That first life may have been little more than self-replicating molecules that were subjected to the forces of natural selection and evolution.
Have you actually ever watched a YouTube video of the inner workings of cells and the amount of information that is processed and acted upon? Because the complexity involved is insane. I don’t think you appreciate the leap in complexity from inanimate dumb matter to living organisms. The same can be said for the leap from simple cells to conscious intelligence. It is literally insane. You are dismissing differences that are meaningful when it comes to discussing the origin of existence being intelligence or not. If the origin of existence is intelligence then it shouldn’t be a surprise that existence created intelligence. In fact, intelligence should be expected to create intelligence. And since the very nature of existence seems to be geared to producing intelligence I don’t see how anyone can not see the hand of a Creator at work. However it is that you see him. I see him as love, truth and logic. And that you and others can’t logically see how these are the attributes of existence, I can only assume you have never made a serious examination. Which is why you dismiss the creation of existence from nothing and dismiss the incredible leaps of complexity in the evolution of space and time as you are doing here.

I see God as an actual presence. A presence without form that is the source of all reality. Such that the physical world was willed into existence to create beings that know and create to share in their experiences.

The very nature of existence is information what is information if not consciousness without form.
Your intelligence is a very slow operator. He waited for billions of years after the creation of life before he got around to creating intelligence. Obviously it wasn't very important to him/her/it. In this case the 6 days of genesis makes more sense.
This is your argument. Seriously? It’s almost like you are looking for reasons to rationalize your bias.

There are any number of cliches and real world examples I could use to prove that good things come to those who wait, but I believe the better response is that he was making sure that you would have billions of years of evidence at your fingertips to discover and know his glory so that you would be without excuse.

Apparently he should have taken longer.
It seems to me it is you who are rationalizing now. We have billions of years of evidence that intelligence didn't create intelligence. Why did he wait if not to give us an excuse to believe it was not an intelligence but time and natural selection?
 

ding

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There is an inanimate analog to biological evolution that preceded and likely led to life. Forms of complex compounds effectively compete for resources: precursor elements and compounds. Those that can do so more efficiently, more quickly and end up in a more stable configuration come to dominate the environment.
Technically all matter/energy evolved since its creation.
Really? That's news to me. I'd have thought the basic building blocks of the universe, atoms and the speed of light, have never changed.
The energy which created the matter was created once. You need to start with sub atomic particles first because that was what created first. The sub atomic particles quickly formed into hydrogen and helium. So all atoms that existed immediately after the Big Bang existed as hydrogen and helium. All the other elements were fused during supernovas.

So you learned something new. Right?
 

ding

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ding

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Yes. I do. Do you know what is actually required for inanimate matter to make the leap to a living organism?
No one does but I'm guessing it is a much simpler process than you think. Organisms, e.g. cells, are extraordinarily complex and likely took a billion or so years AFTER life evolved. That first life may have been little more than self-replicating molecules that were subjected to the forces of natural selection and evolution.
Have you actually ever watched a YouTube video of the inner workings of cells and the amount of information that is processed and acted upon? Because the complexity involved is insane. I don’t think you appreciate the leap in complexity from inanimate dumb matter to living organisms. The same can be said for the leap from simple cells to conscious intelligence. It is literally insane. You are dismissing differences that are meaningful when it comes to discussing the origin of existence being intelligence or not. If the origin of existence is intelligence then it shouldn’t be a surprise that existence created intelligence. In fact, intelligence should be expected to create intelligence. And since the very nature of existence seems to be geared to producing intelligence I don’t see how anyone can not see the hand of a Creator at work. However it is that you see him. I see him as love, truth and logic. And that you and others can’t logically see how these are the attributes of existence, I can only assume you have never made a serious examination. Which is why you dismiss the creation of existence from nothing and dismiss the incredible leaps of complexity in the evolution of space and time as you are doing here.

I see God as an actual presence. A presence without form that is the source of all reality. Such that the physical world was willed into existence to create beings that know and create to share in their experiences.

The very nature of existence is information what is information if not consciousness without form.
Your intelligence is a very slow operator. He waited for billions of years after the creation of life before he got around to creating intelligence. Obviously it wasn't very important to him/her/it. In this case the 6 days of genesis makes more sense.
This is your argument. Seriously? It’s almost like you are looking for reasons to rationalize your bias.

There are any number of cliches and real world examples I could use to prove that good things come to those who wait, but I believe the better response is that he was making sure that you would have billions of years of evidence at your fingertips to discover and know his glory so that you would be without excuse.

Apparently he should have taken longer.
It seems to me it is you who are rationalizing now. We have billions of years of evidence that intelligence didn't create intelligence. Why did he wait if not to give us an excuse to believe it was not an intelligence but time and natural selection?
Really? Show me your evidence.
 

ding

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Why did he wait if not to give us an excuse to believe it was not an intelligence but time and natural selection?
You’ll have to ask him. I suspect if you ask him he will say he was always here waiting for you to come to him.

I mean don’t you think it is illogical for you to expect the creator of existence to come to you. The creator who willed space and time into existence from nothing should come to you? Why? For what purpose?
 

alang1216

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The energy which created the matter was created once. You need to start with sub atomic particles first because that was what created first. The sub atomic particles quickly formed into hydrogen and helium. So all atoms that existed immediately after the Big Bang existed as hydrogen and helium. All the other elements were fused during supernovas.

So you learned something new. Right?
How could you know how many times the energy that created matter was itself created? We can turn energy into matter and matter into energy, so which came first the chicken or the egg?

I didn't learn about the evolution you mentioned. If ice becomes water, it hasn't evolved has it?
 

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