Lets apologize

[HUGGY]

Lets apologize

Let's not and say we did!

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Good point. We could have surrendered. That would have ended the war immediately.

Kennedy is an idiot, as anyone else that claims Japan intended to surrender. I have a link to source documents that clearly show all the Japanese offered before the first bomb was for a cessation of hostilities with a return from both sides of land captured after Dec 7 1941.

Further those documents clearly show that the Army lead Military Government and the Emperor refused to surrender after the first bomb, instead making demands for terms. Only after the second bomb did the Emperor OVERRULE the Army which STILL refused to surrender. And even then the Army staged a coup to steal the tape of the Emperor making the announcement. Fortunately for Japan the Coup failed.

As to the spurious claim that neither site was a military target... both were Headquarters of Army Groups gearing up for the coming Invasion, both were production facilities, both I believe are ports ( could be wrong haven't looked at a map. You don't want your cities bombed in war time, don't put any of those things IN the city.

As for dead, we killed many more fire bombing Tokyo.

So what you're essentially saying is, I was right when I said that Japan was willing to surrender before either bomb was dropped. And that I was once again right when I said that the only reason we dropped those bombs is because we wanted an unconditional surrender.

WRONG again. Japan never offered to surrender. They offered to stop Hostilities. And they demanded all their lost territory back. Further they would not allow any foreign troops on their soil. ALL they offered was for the hostilities to end ON THEIR TERMS.

After the first bomb they repeated the demand that no foreign troops would be allowed on Japanese soil. They did not offer to surrender.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Ya, North Korea is a prime example of what that attitude leads to.

An impoverished nation that poses no discernible threat to the greatest military power the world has ever seen?

kind of like how people operating from caves are no threat to the greatest military power in the world?

If we leave they won't be.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

An impoverished nation that poses no discernible threat to the greatest military power the world has ever seen?

kind of like how people operating from caves are no threat to the greatest military power in the world?

If we leave they won't be.

Ya that worked on September 11 2001 didn't it?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

kind of like how people operating from caves are no threat to the greatest military power in the world?

If we leave they won't be.

Ya that worked on September 11 2001 didn't it?

And we were over there weren't we?

 

[rdean]

For the record, neither nuking Japan nor an invasion of Japan was necessary to end the war.

Quite true. I just believe that the alternative would have been worse, and we would probably still be in a state of war with them, just like we are with North Korea.

I find that unlikely since they were willing to surrender, which North Korea never did.

NOT "unconditional" surrender. Americans could not agree to the terms. Would we have left "Hitler" in power simply to end the war?

 

[JakeStarkey]

hylandrdet, the U.S. Airforce had destroyed 61 cities, had killed more than 1.2 million citizens by August 1 in just the previous 12.5 months, and the Japanese had not surrendered and were not going to surrender.

You have a fail.

So you do admit that we had the air supremacy to bomb them into submission, without the necessary need to nuke every man, woman and child, while contaminating our atmosphere with radiation.

Fair enough.

You admit then the U.S. had to use nukes because the Japanese would not surrender despite your inaccurate contention that normal air power would force surrender.

Fair enough.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The facts remain:

(1) the Japanese never offered to surrender, but did want a truce to stop hostilities, regroup, and hang onto their gains.

(2) conventional air bombing, as horrible as the results were, did not force the Japanese to surrender.

(3) planning documents from 1945 revealed the Japanese military and civilians would inflict unimaginable casualties on themselves and the invader, with the real possibility the invasion force being unable to secure bridgeheads on the Japanese home islands.

Conclusion: the atomic bombs caused the Japanese Emperor, his government, and a reluctant military to surrender.

 

[Wry Catcher]

We had no choice, it was either use the bombs or invade, an invasion would probably seen millions of dead Japanese soldiers and civilians. It took 2 bombs to convince the Emperor to surrender. And even then his Army tried to stage a coup to prevent it.

U.S., allies to send first delegation to Hiroshima memorial - Yahoo! News

This President is an idiot.

You're insane. Get help before you hurt someone, God is not pleased with the hate you hold in your heart.

 

[rdean]

We had no choice, it was either use the bombs or invade, an invasion would probably seen millions of dead Japanese soldiers and civilians. It took 2 bombs to convince the Emperor to surrender. And even then his Army tried to stage a coup to prevent it.

U.S., allies to send first delegation to Hiroshima memorial - Yahoo! News

This President is an idiot.

Dropping the bombs was a necessary evil. There is nothing wrong with morning the dead and memorializing the innocents who have do die to end a terrible war.

Your problem is you're awful.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Nah, RGS is not awful or evil, merely unstable and uber patriotic. The bombs had to be dropped. The American delegation is no way is an apology for the dropping of the bombs. RGS merely went overboard.

 

[bodecea]

Last I checked the German race is predominately white. And in the 1940's this would have been especially true. Claiming that we only interned the Japanese because they were Asian is simply not true. Now how we wenr about it might make your case. Giving them one day to get rid of property and such.

No Japanese were held past the end of the war and a Supreme Court case ordered the Government to release them. Last I checked all 9 of the Supremes were white as well. At least in the 1940's.

We held Germans for over a year after Germany surrendered. American citizens.

I didn't claim we only interned the Japanese. That we interned them and Germans shows our racism. We stereotyped, and in this case, imprisoned people based solely on their ethnic background.

Another broad statement that simply is not borne out by the facts. In Hawaii 3 Japanese American citizens who had been loyal to the US helped a captured Japanese pilot try to escape, they helped him murder Hawaiian nationals. In the Case of Germans we had numerous cases of attempted sabotage on the East Coast.

The decision to intern was made partly on race or ethnicity and partly on the facts as evidenced by the REALITIES of 1941/42 World.

How many Hawaiian Japanese Americans were interned during WWII?

 

[bodecea]

Threads Merged

another nazi mod acting all nazi-like. i remember when this board wasn't controlled by nazis. it was good times.

Ah...another Martyr.

 

[bodecea]

Quite true. I just believe that the alternative would have been worse, and we would probably still be in a state of war with them, just like we are with North Korea.

I find that unlikely since they were willing to surrender, which North Korea never did.

NOT "unconditional" surrender. Americans could not agree to the terms. Would we have left "Hitler" in power simply to end the war?

From what I remember...the sticking point was that the U.S. REFUSED to promise to leave their God-Emperor on the throne if Japan surrendered. Ironically, we did that very thing anyways at the end.

In reality...dropping the bombs was PARTLY a message to the Soviet Union...."look what we've got...don't even think about messing with us and Western Europe".

 

[elvis]

Quite true. I just believe that the alternative would have been worse, and we would probably still be in a state of war with them, just like we are with North Korea.

I find that unlikely since they were willing to surrender, which North Korea never did.

NOT "unconditional" surrender. Americans could not agree to the terms. Would we have left "Hitler" in power simply to end the war?

Kevin would have. Sieg heil!

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Dwight D. Eisenhower, Supreme Commander of Allied Forces, President of United States:
"I was against it on two counts. First, the Japanese were ready to surrender, and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing. Second, I hated to see our country be the first to use such a weapon."

"During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face'. The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude..."

William D. Leahy, Five-Star Fleet Admiral, Chief of Staff under Presidents Roosevelt & Truman:
"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons.

The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children."

Herbert Hoover, President of the United States:
"The use of the atomic bomb, with its indiscriminate killing of women and children, revolts my soul."

"I told MacArthur of my memorandum of mid-May 1945 to Truman, that peace could be had with Japan by which our major objectives would be accomplished. MacArthur said that was correct and that we would have avoided all of the losses, the Atomic bomb, and the entry of Russia into Manchuria."

General Douglas MacArthur:
"When I asked General MacArthur about the decision to drop the bomb, I was surprised to learn he had not even been consulted. What, I asked, would his advice have been? He replied that he saw no military justification for the dropping of the bomb. The war might have ended weeks earlier, he said, if the United States had agreed, as it later did anyway, to the retention of the institution of the emperor." - Norman Cousins

What we have here are the words of many prominent Americans saying that the atomic bombing of Japan was unnecessary and disgusting.

 

[JakeStarkey]

And they were, in retrospect, wrong, just like you are, KevinKennedy, on this issue.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Will somebody remind me of the moron in the spring here on the board who was carrying repeatedly the monotone "I am right you are wrong, it was not unconditional surrender" chord until he started screaming and blood was coming out of his eyes?

You, KevinKennedy, as misguided as your political and cultural philosophy may be (in my opinion), you are invariably polite and at times gracious. I appreciate that very much.

 

[germanguy]

I do personally not see, what Obama did wrong by sending his ambassador to the ceremony in Hiroshima. (Well, there are obviously enough people around here who are against everything this president does. Those people will be in opposition to Obama whatever he does, even if he is telling the date and time of day.)
The ambassador gave no apology and nothing alike, so what the heck did he wrong ?

We should ALL mourn the dead of this war. For the dead are beyond guilt and our conflicts.

Also, any war has the tendency to kill more innocent men, woman and children, instead killing the responsible ones.
So, after hostilities ended, hostility should end.

When in my home country the old and beautiful city Dresden was destroyed, the Frauenkirche (a church) was destroyed as well. The cross on the top of the newly reconstructed church was made anew by a son of a british bomber pilot who helped to destroy the city. It was financed by a trust of the british people and to me it symbolizes the power of reconciliation. No one in Britain had to excuse for this, but as the british went through the Blitz, they knew what Dresden meant.

And, never forget what Churchill, the Old Lion wrote:
In war, resolution; in defeat, defiance; in victory, magnanimity.


regards
ze germanguy

 

[topspin]

There is always a choice other than murdering innocent woman and children tough guy.