Let us discuss this openly... What exactly IS the "two states solution"?

[toomuchtime_]

[
You are discussing only land, which is the easiest part to negotiate,

Agreed. But I'm open to discussing other issues like citizenship, control of the Holy Places, water agreements, security, etc. I can't see why others wouldn't be.

but even so, both Arafat and Abbas have refused to allow any of the Israeli communities in Judea and Samaria to stay with Israel

Well, practically, if they think they are going to get a Jew-free 1949 armistice line at this point they are just kidding themselves. And I think Abbas, at least, knows that. I don't think his sticking points are Gush Etzion and Ma'aleh Adumim. Those are a given on all sides.

and both rejected giving up any part of east Jerusalem. Similarly, while polls have shown the majority of Israelis would be willing to make deep land concessions in a final status agreement, they have also shown Jerusalem is off the table.

Yep. We agree. Jerusalem is going to be a huge sticking point. Personally, if I were on Team Palestine -- I would give it to Israel (provided there was access to the Dome of the Rock and the Al-Aqsa Mosque for Palestinians) but use that concession to get something BIG that I wanted.

Israel has demonstrated, over the past 60-odd years that she will ensure access of Muslims to their Holy Places. The Jordanians/Palestinians have amply demonstrated that they will not, so in my mind, it is absolutely imperative that Israel retains sovereignty over the Old City and the Mount.

Some sort of international arrangement MAY be possible, but not until the international community, including the UN (if it manages to survive the next decade), drastically changes their tune about the Jewish connection to obviously Jewish religious and historical places. The fact that we have to argue obvious facts in that regard is the very reason why we won't give up Jerusalem, imo.

The more difficult issue is security. First, Gaza cannot be allowed to become a state with control of its borders while it is still ruled by a gang of terrorists. Similarly, since Abbas so old and weak and the government structure of the PA so weak, the PA cannot be allowed to have control over its borders.

Could not agree with you more. Eventually, though, as a long-term solution, Palestine will have to control its own borders. But it could be a gradual change. Doesn't have to happen overnight. We can do baby steps. Try, anyway.

To prevent this from happening in Judea and Samaria, Israeli security forces must be in control of the borders and be able to operate throughout Judea and Samaria.

I think you are arguing that the status quo must be maintained yet as the Palestinians aren't ready for a solution. We don't disagree.

And we still haven't gotten to Abbas' insistence that the millions of so called refugees be allowed to return to Israel. I don't see any area in which Abbas and Netanyahu can agree.

Again, this is something that any reasonable person will see can't be permitted to happen. We actually did discuss this, I neglected to mention. My solution is that any person of Palestinian origin who has been resettled anywhere in the world is no longer a refugee and therefore needs no more solutions. If they want to return to their ethnic home they can apply to immigrate just like anyone else. Any persons who are still truly refugees (ie stateless persons living in unacceptable conditions) should be given the choice of citizenship: Jordanian, Syrian, Palestinian, Lebanese and re-located to that country.

If we are going to provide compensation to people who lost homes and livelihoods due to the various wars -- and I don't see why we shouldn't -- both the Jewish and the Arabs should be compensated. And since the Jewish people have all ready been taken care of by the Jewish people, the Arabs should take care of the Arabs.

We agree on a lot of things, but as far as Israel is concerned, there is no Palestine, there is only the PA and the PA has no borders. Land and border issues cannot be profitably discussed without also discussing the security implications of any land or border agreement, and it is unimaginable that Israel's security can be protected without Israel's security forces operation throughout Judea and Samaria; it is also unimaginable that the Arabs would agree to this. So no matter how clever we are on this forum about working out equitable arrangements on land, borders and refugees, there can be no sovereign Arab state in any part of the territories unless Israel can be persuaded it no longer has to have its security forces operate throughout the territories, and I can't see that happening in the foreseeable future.

This article shows how impossible Arabs have made it for Gaza and the PA to come to negotiations.

As long as they believe that they can make Israel cede more land, or anything else, they will never sign a Peace treaty.

Arabs still suffer from Israel Derangement Syndrome (Petra Marquardt-Bigman) ~ Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News

There is a huge cultural gap between the Arab ME and the West, so while some Arab leaders may decide to work with Israel as Sadat did, the Arab street in general distrusts it leaders almost as much as they distrust Israelis, so even if some kind of workable relationships develop between Israel and some of the Gulf Arab states, it will be impossible for Arab leaders to make it public.

 

[Shusha]

I see no reason for Israel to divide Area C.

To ensure a contiguous Palestine.

If you want a contiguous Palestine, you would have to give them Hebron, which you said you're not willing to do.

That's where silly things like corridors come into play. But frankly, I don't trust them with Hebron.

 

[Shusha]

They have shown that they do not want peace but ALL of the Mandate for Palestine in the sovereign hands of Muslims

We agree. The problem is that we don't want THEM. Its not just a matter of land -- its a hostile population of millions which don't play nice with each other, let alone with Jews.

The point is not to get rid of land -- its to get rid of them. Without going down the morally abhorrent road of ethnic cleansing.

 

[Shusha]

...Jews not living in Judea, Samaria and all of Jerusalem is the Arab intention.

...Arabs think that if they can make the Jews lose all three, then not only Jews will lose the want to defend themselves, but would eventually give up more land, and eventually all of Israel, and return to being second class citizens.

They have not stopped teaching their generations hatred for Jews and Israel.
They continue to incite.
They have not changed their charters which require the destruction of Israel sot that a Sovereign Arab one will come into its place with Jews either a minority or gone.

One can discuss the Two State solution forever, but in the mind of the Arab leaders there is only one solution. One State, an Arab, Muslims State/Empire, with non Arab/Muslims as a minority as it had been for the past 1300 years, from the Arab invasion to the Ottoman Empire control of the land.

We agree. In fact, one of the purposes why I try to hold discussion about actual solutions is to illuminate how ridiculously easy it is to solve the conflict IF one isn't intent on destroying Israel, but actually wants to work out a fair and reasonable solution.

The fact that the Arabs don't have yet another state or two in Palestine and Gaza is evidence that the problem is not too hard to solve. Its easy to solve. We've practically done it on this thread.

Not now, that is for sure.

It will require very powerful moderate leaders for that to happen, as it happened with Egypt and Jordan. An end of the endless donations to the PA and Gaza, which is only mostly pocketed by the leaders.

We agree wholeheartedly.

It is actually Impossible to solve.

As long as they follow word for word of the Quran, and demand that Muslim conquered land remains in Muslim hands, there will be no solution.

Abbas has done everything to undermine Israel, and all Jewish holy places by turning one by one " a Muslim site".

The UN and UNESCO and UNWRA are part of the problem, as it is full of Muslim and Christian States which are against Israel.

They add to the rejection for negotiations and a final solution for the problem.

It was not like that with Egypt and Jordan. Those organizations were not as
taken by anti Israel elements as it is now.

Okay, so what do we DO then? Continue on with the status quo? Hope for the Arabs and the Muslims to start fighting amongst themselves? How do we get rid of the extremist Muslim problem? What do we DO with that?

 

[Shusha]

As long as they believe that they can make Israel cede more land, or anything else, they will never sign a Peace treaty.

We agree.

So I guess the solution has to be for Israel to be more heavy-handed, rather than less?

 

[teddyearp]

Without a fully sovereign state of Palestine, i.e. with continued Israeli military occupation, it would not be a "two-state" solution.

I actually agree with this. Palestine has to be permitted to have full sovereignty. BUT that doesn't have to happen right away or all at once. AND she must be required to demonstrate peaceful intentions and control over extremist groups before she gains full sovereignty.

I also agree with that portion of Monti's post. However, though Israel has serious trust issues, the rest of your post Shusha has been quite the sticking point in the past. Either Palestine is actually created and Israel pulls all of its troops out or it just doesn't happen. This Palestine should have control over its borders, just like we have in North America. They vet who comes in, and Israel vets who comes the other way. Period. Let them create a military as well. As for Gaza, the same for them whether they are separate or connected to the West Bank.

I mean fuck it. Go big or stay home. This new Palestine would then (or should) immediately sign peace treaties with its neighbors. Or not. And if they chose to attack their neighbors, suffer the consequences like any other nation on the face of the Earth. Then, if they are actual countries the electronicintefada propaganda machine can be dismantled.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Israel offered 97% of the West Bank during the 2000 and 2008 negotiations. The Arabs refused it.

Indeed, Israel offered the Palestinians all of the prison except for the doors and walls.

 

[teddyearp]

Israel offered 97% of the West Bank during the 2000 and 2008 negotiations. The Arabs refused it.

Indeed, Israel offered the Palestinians all of the prison except for the doors and walls.

Agreed, in theory. Those are the sticking points I mentioned in the post right above yours. That is why I now say fuck it. The rest is in post #366. I don't want to spam the board.

 

[P F Tinmore]

A good two state solution.

Dump half of Israel in Germany and dump the other half in Britain.

 

[teddyearp]

And then it would be a land without a people again. All the pals in Germany, all the jews in England.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

I see no reason for Israel to divide Area C.

To ensure a contiguous Palestine.

If you want a contiguous Palestine, you would have to give them Hebron, which you said you're not willing to do.

That's where silly things like corridors come into play. But frankly, I don't trust them with Hebron.

The way the situation is in Hebron now, isn't working. The 800 Jews there are in a ghetto, being protected by too many soldiers, who could be used to guard the borders. The 120,000 Arabs there can't move around the city, and it takes them hours just to get to school and work. The Arabs throw stones at the Jews. The Jews throw garbage on the Arabs. It's a very volatile situation that culminated in the Goldstein massacre.

The Arabs themselves are to blame for this. Before 1980, Jews lived nearby in a settlement called Kiryat Arba. They only came to Hebron on the Sabbath, to pray at the Tomb of the Patriarchs (the second holiest site in Judaism). But in 1980, six Yeshiva (Hebrew-school) students were killed in Hebron after praying at the Tomb, by the bloodthirsty Arabs. It was then, in an act of revenge, that the Israeli gov't allowed Jews to move back into Hebron. (The Jews had been chased out of there in 1929, after a massacre.)

The Arabs/Muslims don't recognize the validity of Joseph's and Rachel's Tombs, which is why they try to destroy them. But they consider the Tomb of the Patriarchs to be holy, just like the Jews do. They pray there too. So I would trust them with the burial-place of Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebecca, and Jacob and Leah. They call it the Ibrahimi Mosque. Let the Jews return to Kiryat Arba. The peaceful situation that existed before 1980 can be restored.

 

[GHook93]

Lipush, a two state solution is no longer possible without ethnic cleansing of Jews or non-Jews. It will no longer work. A single state solution is now the only solution.

Coming from the dumbest fuck on the board!


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[GHook93]

I see we are off to a good start. Israel has created a terrible mess that will be difficult to unwind. The two state solution is wrong in many ways. It was first thrown on the table in 1937. Eighty years later we are farther away from a two state solution than we were then. "Everybody knows" that it is the only solution. So if it is such a good idea, why hasn't it happened?

Get rid of then 2 state solution by kicking all the camel fucker out of Israel, Judea, Samaria and Gaza.


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[montelatici]

Lipush, a two state solution is no longer possible without ethnic cleansing of Jews or non-Jews. It will no longer work. A single state solution is now the only solution.

Coming from the dumbest fuck on the board!


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The punk projects as usual.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The problem is that we don't want THEM. Its not just a matter of land -- its a hostile population of millions

Who are opposed to the Zionist's settler colonial project in Palestine.

 

[Shusha]

I see no reason for Israel to divide Area C.

To ensure a contiguous Palestine.

If you want a contiguous Palestine, you would have to give them Hebron, which you said you're not willing to do.

That's where silly things like corridors come into play. But frankly, I don't trust them with Hebron.

The way the situation is in Hebron now, isn't working. The 800 Jews there are in a ghetto, being protected by too many soldiers, who could be used to guard the borders. The 120,000 Arabs there can't move around the city, and it takes them hours just to get to school and work. The Arabs throw stones at the Jews. The Jews throw garbage on the Arabs. It's a very volatile situation that culminated in the Goldstein massacre.

The Arabs themselves are to blame for this. Before 1980, Jews lived nearby in a settlement called Kiryat Arba. They only came to Hebron on the Sabbath, to pray at the Tomb of the Patriarchs (the second holiest site in Judaism). But in 1980, six Yeshiva (Hebrew-school) students were killed in Hebron after praying at the Tomb, by the bloodthirsty Arabs. It was then, in an act of revenge, that the Israeli gov't allowed Jews to move back into Hebron. (The Jews had been chased out of there in 1929, after a massacre.)

The Arabs/Muslims don't recognize the validity of Joseph's and Rachel's Tombs, which is why they try to destroy them. But they consider the Tomb of the Patriarchs to be holy, just like the Jews do. They pray there too. So I would trust them with the burial-place of Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebecca, and Jacob and Leah. They call it the Ibrahimi Mosque. Let the Jews return to Kiryat Arba. The peaceful situation that existed before 1980 can be restored.

Fine. I don't like it. But as a negotiating point, I'll give it. They can have Hebron and the Tomb of the Patriarchs, as long as Jews have peaceful access.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

I see no reason for Israel to divide Area C.

To ensure a contiguous Palestine.

If you want a contiguous Palestine, you would have to give them Hebron, which you said you're not willing to do.

That's where silly things like corridors come into play. But frankly, I don't trust them with Hebron.

The way the situation is in Hebron now, isn't working. The 800 Jews there are in a ghetto, being protected by too many soldiers, who could be used to guard the borders. The 120,000 Arabs there can't move around the city, and it takes them hours just to get to school and work. The Arabs throw stones at the Jews. The Jews throw garbage on the Arabs. It's a very volatile situation that culminated in the Goldstein massacre.

The Arabs themselves are to blame for this. Before 1980, Jews lived nearby in a settlement called Kiryat Arba. They only came to Hebron on the Sabbath, to pray at the Tomb of the Patriarchs (the second holiest site in Judaism). But in 1980, six Yeshiva (Hebrew-school) students were killed in Hebron after praying at the Tomb, by the bloodthirsty Arabs. It was then, in an act of revenge, that the Israeli gov't allowed Jews to move back into Hebron. (The Jews had been chased out of there in 1929, after a massacre.)

The Arabs/Muslims don't recognize the validity of Joseph's and Rachel's Tombs, which is why they try to destroy them. But they consider the Tomb of the Patriarchs to be holy, just like the Jews do. They pray there too. So I would trust them with the burial-place of Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebecca, and Jacob and Leah. They call it the Ibrahimi Mosque. Let the Jews return to Kiryat Arba. The peaceful situation that existed before 1980 can be restored.

Fine. I don't like it. But as a negotiating point, I'll give it. They can have Hebron and the Tomb of the Patriarchs, as long as Jews have peaceful access.

Actually, the Arab population of Hebron is between 170,000--180,000. Sorry for the error.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

I'm ready to open this up with the Pro-Palestinians on this board who are willing to have a logal discussion, and those who are not haters who want Israel in the sea.

Let us talk this rationally. What exactly IS the two states solution? One for Israel and one for the Palestinians? What will be the borders of such states?

Can you openly tell me what is the benefit of the so called 67 lines? what good there is in them? and why they are better than a 1 state solution?

Please elaborate. Let us discuss this rationally. No name calling and cusses.

What exactly is a two state solution? A very bad idea.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I'm ready to open this up with the Pro-Palestinians on this board who are willing to have a logal discussion, and those who are not haters who want Israel in the sea.

Let us talk this rationally. What exactly IS the two states solution? One for Israel and one for the Palestinians? What will be the borders of such states?

Can you openly tell me what is the benefit of the so called 67 lines? what good there is in them? and why they are better than a 1 state solution?

Please elaborate. Let us discuss this rationally. No name calling and cusses.

What exactly is a two state solution? A very bad idea.

Indeed, they have been kicking that dead horse since 1937.

 

[Indeependent]

The problem is that we don't want THEM. Its not just a matter of land -- its a hostile population of millions

Who are opposed to the Zionist's settler colonial project in Palestine.

You seem to abhor legal transactions.