Lehigh .380 defense round...is it any good, the videos seem to say, yes.

[harmonica]

A .380 is marginal as a self defense firearm.

The Lehigh is a little more effective than most .380 rds but I wouldn't trust my life to it.

Unless you hit them dead center in the head the chances of a .380 stopping an assailant is minimal.

A 9mm is the smallest caliber you could consider and even that has weak stopping power. .

I carry a Polish P64 or a CZ 82, both fire a 9x18 mak round, just slightly bigger than a .380. I have a standing challenge to those who claim anything less than a 9 mil is basically useless, that challenge is to stand downrange and play target........ Funny but no one has yet to take me up on that challenge........

I have a CZ 27 from WW2 with nazi proof eagle and waffenamt
my uncle brought it back along with other souvenirs
I'm not going to fire it.....
it is small/thin....is the 82 small?

 

[Ringel05]

A .380 is marginal as a self defense firearm.

The Lehigh is a little more effective than most .380 rds but I wouldn't trust my life to it.

Unless you hit them dead center in the head the chances of a .380 stopping an assailant is minimal.

A 9mm is the smallest caliber you could consider and even that has weak stopping power. .

I carry a Polish P64 or a CZ 82, both fire a 9x18 mak round, just slightly bigger than a .380. I have a standing challenge to those who claim anything less than a 9 mil is basically useless, that challenge is to stand downrange and play target........ Funny but no one has yet to take me up on that challenge........

I have a CZ 27 from WW2 with nazi proof eagle and waffenamt
my uncle brought it back along with other souvenirs
I'm not going to fire it.....
it is small/thin....is the 82 small?

About the same size as the 27 but with an ergonomic grip. My CZ 52 was bigger, heavier but thinner.

CZ 52 (7.62 x 25)

 

[2aguy]

Nobody wants to get shot with any round. Even a .22 can kill and any round can be lethal. Any round can cause blood loss but that death is several minutes away.

The issue is short term stopping power. .380 is poor at stopping someone before they can do further harm.

Even a 9mm is not that effective at stopping unless you hit them in a vital area.

I carry a .45.

A seasoned New York City detective I know told me about a cop who, while searching a burglarized premises, was attacked by the burglar who advanced toward him from a 20-foot distance holding a linoleum knife. The cop emptied his six-shot .38 revolver into the advancing burglar who managed to reach the cop and slash his arm open.

Although shot six times the burglar was still struggling with the cop he'd slashed when the cop's partner, who had been searching in an adjoining room, put a seventh bullet right over the burglar's ear from a two inch distance -- which instantly dropped him.

Although the .38 Special is a relatively powerful round the critical factor is where the bullet hits, not how powerful it is, and this is especially true if the subject is drugged and/or emotionally-charged or psychotic.

There are many stories like that. I recently saw a video where a policeman talked about hitting a guy four times with a .40 and still the guy had the energy to shoot the cop three times and wrestle and it wasn't over until the cop was able to get a 5th shot to the head.

In our church we have a rotation of guys that carry concealed weapons to protect the congregation. Today I am on the rotation and will be leaving in a little while. I'll take a Colt 1911 with me and four extra magazines.

My concealed carry instructor told us the story of a police officer who fired 8 rounds of .45 into a thug, and he still had the ability to squeeze the trigger on his gun as he lay there dying.....

 

[harmonica]

A .380 is marginal as a self defense firearm.

The Lehigh is a little more effective than most .380 rds but I wouldn't trust my life to it.

Unless you hit them dead center in the head the chances of a .380 stopping an assailant is minimal.

A 9mm is the smallest caliber you could consider and even that has weak stopping power. .

I carry a Polish P64 or a CZ 82, both fire a 9x18 mak round, just slightly bigger than a .380. I have a standing challenge to those who claim anything less than a 9 mil is basically useless, that challenge is to stand downrange and play target........ Funny but no one has yet to take me up on that challenge........

I have a CZ 27 from WW2 with nazi proof eagle and waffenamt
my uncle brought it back along with other souvenirs
I'm not going to fire it.....
it is small/thin....is the 82 small?

About the same size as the 27 but with an ergonomic grip. My CZ 52 was bigger, heavier but thinner.

CZ 52 (7.62 x 25)

the 27 seems like a good CC size

 

[MikeK]

44 Magnum. It's an even bigger hand cannon.

I shot a friend's .44 mag once. Too much. First shot, it almost got away from me. Then I had to concentrate so much on controlling it my aim was embarrassingly off.

I think the .44 mag is a good gun for special purposes but will take substantially more practice to develop proficiency with than will a less powerful gun. My friend has one because he can afford it and it's one of his many guns, but he rarely shoots it. Like me, his favorite fun gun is the Ruger Model 2 (.22).

My favorite serious gun is S&W Model 19 (.357).

 

[Flash]

I carry a Polish P64 or a CZ 82, both fire a 9x18 mak round, just slightly bigger than a .380. I have a standing challenge to those who claim anything less than a 9 mil is basically useless, that challenge is to stand downrange and play target........ Funny but no one has yet to take me up on that challenge........

Nobody wants to get shot with any round. Even a .22 can kill and any round can be lethal. Any round can cause blood loss but that death is several minutes away.

The issue is short term stopping power. .380 is poor at stopping someone before they can do further harm.

Even a 9mm is not that effective at stopping unless you hit them in a vital area.

I carry a .45.

Good for you, I shoot a 270 out of 300........, consistently........ I don't need a hand cannon.

Shot placement is certainly a big part of it, but if your goal is to make someone stop doing what they are doing, the only way to effectively do that is by inflicting pain which is what a "hand cannon" does. It was for good reason that the 38 got the nickname the widow maker in WWI. Not because it made the guy getting shot stop doing what he was doing but because he could be shot three times and still make a widow out of the wife of the guy shooting him. At the end of the day there are many good reasons for someone to choose the weapon they choose. It's a personal preference. But it is important to mate up their choice with the best ammo they can which is what the OP is trying to do.

Let me put it this way, if my choice was a 380 with a good personal defense round or a 9 mm with ball ammo, I'd take the 380 with the personal defense ammo.

I am a NRA Firearms Instructor and a Range Officer. I see all kinds of shooters.

Very few people can hit anything with a pistol while under stress. Even the LEOs that train.

It takes a lot of training to be effective with a pistol. That is why it is best to have the most powerful weapon you can carry. For some, like my wife, it may only be a Sig P380.

I'm an RSO at my club. Probably a third of the members are.

When my wife travels by herself she takes her P238 and her Kimber Ultra Carry. I'm always ragging on her to practice more. Then she reminds me that she has two male German Shepards with her and she will have plenty of time to take aim. The way she sees it she only needs a gun to protect the dogs. I don't think she is wrong.

I totally agree with your point about shooting paper versus the real thing. I was taking a HUET training class which is a water survival class and we were simulating egressing a helicopter which was turned upside down and submerged. It's all done in a pool with a crane. Anyway the last ride is to follow someone out the window. So here I am sitting upside down, strapped into my seat, submerged underwater with a fairly large dude between me and the window. My plan was to just sit there all calm and relaxed until he got out. I was sitting there like 30 seconds before I even looked over. Right before I looked over I remember thinking that I could sit here like this for another two minutes. Anyway when I looked over I expected him to be gone and the window open. What I saw was he was still sitting there struggling to unbuckle his harness. My air was gone in 5 seconds. We both made it out, but I realized that if I ever went down in a helicopter crash in the GoM I would probably die. Training is not the real thing. That's probably why LEO and military train so damn much.

Like you I am also a RSO and also a firearms instructor.

The range where I work is used by the police and sheriff's department.

I am not impressed with the level of firearms training the LEOs get. Many of them only shoot a gun a couple of times a year for qualification. Some of the departments try to require the qualification under stress but others don't.

The SWAT members train a lot but the average patrol officer not so much so.

I don't see the average civilian pistol shooter having much skill. Certainly standing and shooting at a target 15 yrds away with no stress isn't going to do much to hone skills you need in a real gun fight.

I probably shoot more than 98% of the gun owners in the US and I don't have confidence that I could effectively use a pistol if accosted by a crook.

At the range where I shoot the guy that runs it is a very accomplished marksman. He has won many many shooting competitions including Camp Perry. He was the Florida pistol champion for several years. He is a former Marine that was the NCOIC of the Marine competition shooting team. He has trained FBI agents and many LEOs. He knows how to shoot.

After serving in the Marines for awhile he went to work as a policeman in Tampa for a couple of years. He talks about one night getting into a shootout with a bad guy. He emptied all the magazines he had with him and so did his partner. Only one round hit the bad guy.

In Vietnam I saw guys get hit on both sides with rifle rounds and still carry on the fight for awhile.

The movies have distorted the reality of firearms.

I am sure you know that the same as I do.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Professional hitmen use no serial number .45s from the Philppines or the low noise .22s and .25s. Too much gun to stay on target is worse than no gun. the first shot fired normally misses and if it kills an innocent by stander you go to jail. Double or triple tapping is usually used by the US special forces. By the way granny was my first instructor and it wasn't till I was much older that I realized that buttoning the shirt with a .22 was nearly as effective as buckshot. Don't try to impress people just be effective.

Only problem is that a .22 can be defeated with a heavy leather coat.

It is the most accurate round, though. (for a hand gun)

 

[Uncensored2008]

Looking at getting a .380....looking at beefing it up as a self defense carry. Is the Lehigh defense round in .380 a good round......?

Harry likes the .45

44 Magnum. It's an even bigger hand cannon.

Than a .45 ACP - but not a .45 Long Colt.

 

[ding]

Looking at getting a .380....looking at beefing it up as a self defense carry. Is the Lehigh defense round in .380 a good round......?

Harry likes the .45

44 Magnum. It's an even bigger hand cannon.

Than a .45 ACP - but not a .45 Long Colt.

I don't know much about a 45 long colt. I'll take your word.

 

[ding]

Professional hitmen use no serial number .45s from the Philppines or the low noise .22s and .25s. Too much gun to stay on target is worse than no gun. the first shot fired normally misses and if it kills an innocent by stander you go to jail. Double or triple tapping is usually used by the US special forces. By the way granny was my first instructor and it wasn't till I was much older that I realized that buttoning the shirt with a .22 was nearly as effective as buckshot. Don't try to impress people just be effective.

Only problem is that a .22 can be defeated with a heavy leather coat.

It is the most accurate round, though. (for a hand gun)

True. I can fire it accurately as fast as I can pull the trigger. I can't say that about my other guns. I'm no Jerry Miculek. That guy is amazing.

 

[2aguy]

Nobody wants to get shot with any round. Even a .22 can kill and any round can be lethal. Any round can cause blood loss but that death is several minutes away.

The issue is short term stopping power. .380 is poor at stopping someone before they can do further harm.

Even a 9mm is not that effective at stopping unless you hit them in a vital area.

I carry a .45.

Good for you, I shoot a 270 out of 300........, consistently........ I don't need a hand cannon.

Shot placement is certainly a big part of it, but if your goal is to make someone stop doing what they are doing, the only way to effectively do that is by inflicting pain which is what a "hand cannon" does. It was for good reason that the 38 got the nickname the widow maker in WWI. Not because it made the guy getting shot stop doing what he was doing but because he could be shot three times and still make a widow out of the wife of the guy shooting him. At the end of the day there are many good reasons for someone to choose the weapon they choose. It's a personal preference. But it is important to mate up their choice with the best ammo they can which is what the OP is trying to do.

Let me put it this way, if my choice was a 380 with a good personal defense round or a 9 mm with ball ammo, I'd take the 380 with the personal defense ammo.

I am a NRA Firearms Instructor and a Range Officer. I see all kinds of shooters.

Very few people can hit anything with a pistol while under stress. Even the LEOs that train.

It takes a lot of training to be effective with a pistol. That is why it is best to have the most powerful weapon you can carry. For some, like my wife, it may only be a Sig P380.

I'm an RSO at my club. Probably a third of the members are.

When my wife travels by herself she takes her P238 and her Kimber Ultra Carry. I'm always ragging on her to practice more. Then she reminds me that she has two male German Shepards with her and she will have plenty of time to take aim. The way she sees it she only needs a gun to protect the dogs. I don't think she is wrong.

I totally agree with your point about shooting paper versus the real thing. I was taking a HUET training class which is a water survival class and we were simulating egressing a helicopter which was turned upside down and submerged. It's all done in a pool with a crane. Anyway the last ride is to follow someone out the window. So here I am sitting upside down, strapped into my seat, submerged underwater with a fairly large dude between me and the window. My plan was to just sit there all calm and relaxed until he got out. I was sitting there like 30 seconds before I even looked over. Right before I looked over I remember thinking that I could sit here like this for another two minutes. Anyway when I looked over I expected him to be gone and the window open. What I saw was he was still sitting there struggling to unbuckle his harness. My air was gone in 5 seconds. We both made it out, but I realized that if I ever went down in a helicopter crash in the GoM I would probably die. Training is not the real thing. That's probably why LEO and military train so damn much.

Like you I am also a RSO and also a firearms instructor.

The range where I work is used by the police and sheriff's department.

I am not impressed with the level of firearms training the LEOs get. Many of them only shoot a gun a couple of times a year for qualification. Some of the departments try to require the qualification under stress but others don't.

The SWAT members train a lot but the average patrol officer not so much so.

I don't see the average civilian pistol shooter having much skill. Certainly standing and shooting at a target 15 yrds away with no stress isn't going to do much to hone skills you need in a real gun fight.

I probably shoot more than 98% of the gun owners in the US and I don't have confidence that I could effectively use a pistol if accosted by a crook.

At the range where I shoot the guy that runs it is a very accomplished marksman. He has won many many shooting competitions including Camp Perry. He was the Florida pistol champion for several years. He is a former Marine that was the NCOIC of the Marine competition shooting team. He has trained FBI agents and many LEOs. He knows how to shoot.

After serving in the Marines for awhile he went to work as a policeman in Tampa for a couple of years. He talks about one night getting into a shootout with a bad guy. He emptied all the magazines he had with him and so did his partner. Only one round hit the bad guy.

In Vietnam I saw guys get hit on both sides with rifle rounds and still carry on the fight for awhile.

The movies have distorted the reality of firearms.

I am sure you know that the same as I do.

At the same time, civilians, with little to no training do stop criminal attack with their guns.....happens every single day.

 

[ding]

44 Magnum. It's an even bigger hand cannon.

I shot a friend's .44 mag once. Too much. First shot, it almost got away from me. Then I had to concentrate so much on controlling it my aim was embarrassingly off.

I think the .44 mag is a good gun for special purposes but will take substantially more practice to develop proficiency with than will a less powerful gun. My friend has one because he can afford it and it's one of his many guns, but he rarely shoots it. Like me, his favorite fun gun is the Ruger Model 2 (.22).

My favorite serious gun is S&W Model 19 (.357).

Watch this guy with a 44 mag.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Looking at getting a .380....looking at beefing it up as a self defense carry. Is the Lehigh defense round in .380 a good round......?

Harry likes the .45

44 Magnum. It's an even bigger hand cannon.

Than a .45 ACP - but not a .45 Long Colt.

I don't know much about a 45 long colt. I'll take your word.

Roughly the same round as a .44 mag, but with a .454 diameter.

E.M.F. GWII Deluxe Alchimista III 1873 .45 LC Revolver 5.5" Octagon Barrel 6 Rounds Engraved Silver Frame Walnut Grip Blued - W45ALO512NMCW - 641996211676

 

[ding]

Good for you, I shoot a 270 out of 300........, consistently........ I don't need a hand cannon.

Shot placement is certainly a big part of it, but if your goal is to make someone stop doing what they are doing, the only way to effectively do that is by inflicting pain which is what a "hand cannon" does. It was for good reason that the 38 got the nickname the widow maker in WWI. Not because it made the guy getting shot stop doing what he was doing but because he could be shot three times and still make a widow out of the wife of the guy shooting him. At the end of the day there are many good reasons for someone to choose the weapon they choose. It's a personal preference. But it is important to mate up their choice with the best ammo they can which is what the OP is trying to do.

Let me put it this way, if my choice was a 380 with a good personal defense round or a 9 mm with ball ammo, I'd take the 380 with the personal defense ammo.

I am a NRA Firearms Instructor and a Range Officer. I see all kinds of shooters.

Very few people can hit anything with a pistol while under stress. Even the LEOs that train.

It takes a lot of training to be effective with a pistol. That is why it is best to have the most powerful weapon you can carry. For some, like my wife, it may only be a Sig P380.

I'm an RSO at my club. Probably a third of the members are.

When my wife travels by herself she takes her P238 and her Kimber Ultra Carry. I'm always ragging on her to practice more. Then she reminds me that she has two male German Shepards with her and she will have plenty of time to take aim. The way she sees it she only needs a gun to protect the dogs. I don't think she is wrong.

I totally agree with your point about shooting paper versus the real thing. I was taking a HUET training class which is a water survival class and we were simulating egressing a helicopter which was turned upside down and submerged. It's all done in a pool with a crane. Anyway the last ride is to follow someone out the window. So here I am sitting upside down, strapped into my seat, submerged underwater with a fairly large dude between me and the window. My plan was to just sit there all calm and relaxed until he got out. I was sitting there like 30 seconds before I even looked over. Right before I looked over I remember thinking that I could sit here like this for another two minutes. Anyway when I looked over I expected him to be gone and the window open. What I saw was he was still sitting there struggling to unbuckle his harness. My air was gone in 5 seconds. We both made it out, but I realized that if I ever went down in a helicopter crash in the GoM I would probably die. Training is not the real thing. That's probably why LEO and military train so damn much.

Like you I am also a RSO and also a firearms instructor.

The range where I work is used by the police and sheriff's department.

I am not impressed with the level of firearms training the LEOs get. Many of them only shoot a gun a couple of times a year for qualification. Some of the departments try to require the qualification under stress but others don't.

The SWAT members train a lot but the average patrol officer not so much so.

I don't see the average civilian pistol shooter having much skill. Certainly standing and shooting at a target 15 yrds away with no stress isn't going to do much to hone skills you need in a real gun fight.

I probably shoot more than 98% of the gun owners in the US and I don't have confidence that I could effectively use a pistol if accosted by a crook.

At the range where I shoot the guy that runs it is a very accomplished marksman. He has won many many shooting competitions including Camp Perry. He was the Florida pistol champion for several years. He is a former Marine that was the NCOIC of the Marine competition shooting team. He has trained FBI agents and many LEOs. He knows how to shoot.

After serving in the Marines for awhile he went to work as a policeman in Tampa for a couple of years. He talks about one night getting into a shootout with a bad guy. He emptied all the magazines he had with him and so did his partner. Only one round hit the bad guy.

In Vietnam I saw guys get hit on both sides with rifle rounds and still carry on the fight for awhile.

The movies have distorted the reality of firearms.

I am sure you know that the same as I do.

At the same time, civilians, with little to no training do stop criminal attack with their guns.....happens every single day.

Sure, but I think a lot of that depends on the situation and the person.

 

[harmonica]

WW2 CZ 27 circa 1943

German eagle proof

waffenamt

 

[Flash]

[Q



At the same time, civilians, with little to no training do stop criminal attack with their guns.....happens every single day.

There are all kinds of scenarios.

If I was accosted by a thug with a gun I would have to asses if I thought there was a real threat to my life or if the asshole was just trying to get money and get away. If it was just a mugging I would probably just give him the money. Drawing a weapon on somebody already pointing a gun at you may be a stupid thing to do. Also, if you do shoot the sonofabitch you will go through hell with the police and legal system. Probably cost you a lot more in legal fees in the long run than you would have lost in the mugging.

 

[2aguy]

[Q



At the same time, civilians, with little to no training do stop criminal attack with their guns.....happens every single day.

There are all kinds of scenarios.

If I was accosted by a thug with a gun I would have to asses if I thought there was a real threat to my life or if the asshole was just trying to get money and get away. If it was just a mugging I would probably just give him the money. Drawing a weapon on somebody already pointing a gun at you may be a stupid thing to do. Also, if you do shoot the sonofabitch you will go through hell with the police and legal system. Probably cost you a lot more in legal fees in the long run than you would have lost in the mugging.

I don't disagree....I am simply pointing out that civilians...when attacked with violence, have used their guns to stop violent criminals....with little to no training....

 

[MikeK]

44 Magnum. It's an even bigger hand cannon.

I shot a friend's .44 mag once. Too much. First shot, it almost got away from me. Then I had to concentrate so much on controlling it my aim was embarrassingly off.

I think the .44 mag is a good gun for special purposes but will take substantially more practice to develop proficiency with than will a less powerful gun. My friend has one because he can afford it and it's one of his many guns, but he rarely shoots it. Like me, his favorite fun gun is the Ruger Model 2 (.22).

My favorite serious gun is S&W Model 19 (.357).

Watch this guy with a 44 mag.

I don't believe his claim that "it's been awhile" since he shot a .44 mag. What he's demonstrated is the result of frequent practice, which, even if he re-loads, will be costly. But his hands, his fingers, and his brain have combined in developing absolute control of that gun.

 

[MikeK]

There are all kinds of scenarios.

If I was accosted by a thug with a gun I would have to asses if I thought there was a real threat to my life or if the asshole was just trying to get money and get away. If it was just a mugging I would probably just give him the money. Drawing a weapon on somebody already pointing a gun at you may be a stupid thing to do. Also, if you do shoot the sonofabitch you will go through hell with the police and legal system. Probably cost you a lot more in legal fees in the long run than you would have lost in the mugging.

Unfortunately there is a lot of truth and well-founded wisdom in what you've said.

 

[ding]

44 Magnum. It's an even bigger hand cannon.

I shot a friend's .44 mag once. Too much. First shot, it almost got away from me. Then I had to concentrate so much on controlling it my aim was embarrassingly off.

I think the .44 mag is a good gun for special purposes but will take substantially more practice to develop proficiency with than will a less powerful gun. My friend has one because he can afford it and it's one of his many guns, but he rarely shoots it. Like me, his favorite fun gun is the Ruger Model 2 (.22).

My favorite serious gun is S&W Model 19 (.357).

Watch this guy with a 44 mag.

I don't believe his claim that "it's been awhile" since he shot a .44 mag. What he's demonstrated is the result of frequent practice, which, even if he re-loads, will be costly. But his hands, his fingers, and his brain have combined in developing absolute control of that gun.

I don't doubt what he says. He shoots all kinds of weapons. There's a video of him shooting a semi-automatic against a guy who is shooting with a bump stock. The bump stock barely wins but his grouping is superior. The guy is a freak. The ammo he shot in the video were factory loads not light loads. I'm pretty sure he's got plenty of sponsors and he doesn't pay for anything, but I could be wrong about that.