Koba (stalin) killed more Ukrainians than Hitler killed Jews, says USA congressman

Litwin

Silver Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2017
Messages
6,316
Reaction score
351
Points
95
Location
GDL&Sweden
Rep. Michael McCaul is right actually, why so is few people in the world know it ? and why Muscovite empire (USSR successor) does not pay computations to Ukrainians?

"
A Texas congressman compared the Holocaust to a man-made famine that decimated the Soviet Ukraine in the early 1930s.

Speaking this week at a conference organized by the conservative American Enterprise Institute, Rep. Michael McCaul, a Republican and the House Homeland Security Committee chairman, said that “Stalin killed more people in Ukraine than Hitler killed Jews in World War II. They basically worked them to death for the bread and the food that they made in Ukraine.”
Stalin killed more Ukrainians than Hitler killed Jews, says congressman
 
OP
Litwin

Litwin

Silver Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2017
Messages
6,316
Reaction score
351
Points
95
Location
GDL&Sweden
T Snyder
"
The Soviet Union defeated Nazi Germany on the eastern front in the Second World War, thereby earning Stalin the gratitude of millions and a crucial part in the establishment of the postwar order in Europe. Yet Stalin's own record of mass murder was almost as imposing as Hitler's. Indeed, in times of peace it was far worse. In the name of defending and modernizing the Soviet Union, Stalin oversaw the starvation of millions and the shooting of three quarters of a million people in the 1930s. Stalin killed his own citizens no less efficiently than Hitler killed the citizens of other countries. Of the fourteen million people deliberately murdered in the bloodlands between 1933 and 1945, a third belong in the Soviet account.

This is a history of political mass murder. The fourteen million were all victims of a Soviet or Nazi killing policy, often of an interaction between the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany, but never casualties of the war between them. A quarter of them were killed before the Second World War even began. A further two hundred thousand died between 1939 and 1941, while Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union were remaking Europe as allies. The deaths of the fourteen million were sometimes projected in economic plans, or hastened by economic considerations, but were not caused by economic necessity in any strict sense. Stalin knew what would happen when he seized food from the starving peasants of Ukraine in 1933, just as Hitler knew what could be expected when he deprived Soviet prisoners of war of food eight years later. In both cases, more than three million people died. The hundreds of thousands of Soviet peasants and workers shot during the Great Terror in 1937 and 1938 were victims of express directives of Stalin, just as the millions of Jews shot and gassed between 1941 and 1945 were victims of an explicit policy of Hitler.

War did alter the balance of killing. In the 1930s, the Soviet Union was the only state in Europe carrying out policies of mass killing. Before the Second World War, in the first six and a half years after Hitler came to power, the Nazi regime killed no more than about ten thousand people. The Stalinist regime had already starved millions and shot the better part of a million. German policies of mass killing came to rival Soviet ones between 1939 and 1941, after Stalin allowed Hitler to begin a war. The Wehrmacht and the Red Army both attacked Poland in September 1939, German and Soviet diplomats signed a Treaty on Borders and Friendship, and German and Soviet forces occupied the country together for nearly two years. After the Germans expanded their empire to the west in 1940 by invading Norway, Denmark, the Low Countries, and France, the Soviets occupied and annexed Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, and northeastern Romania. Both regimes shot educated Polish citizens in the tens of thousands and deported them in the hundreds of thousands. For Stalin, such mass repression was the continuation of old policies on new lands; for Hitler, it was a breakthrough.

The very worst of the killing began when Hitler betrayed Stalin and German forces crossed into the recently enlarged Soviet Union in June 1941. Although the Second World War began in September 1939 with the joint German-Soviet invasion of Poland, the tremendous majority of its killing followed that second eastern invasion. In Soviet Ukraine, Soviet Belarus, and the Leningrad district, lands where the Stalinist regime had starved and shot some four million people in the previous eight years, German forces managed to starve and shoot even more in half the time. Right after the invasion began, the Wehrmacht began to starve its Soviet prisoners, and special task forces called Einsatzgruppen began to shoot political enemies and Jews. Along with the German Order Police, the Waffen-SS, and the Wehrmacht, and with the participation of local auxiliary police and militias, the Einsatzgruppen began that summer to eliminate Jewish communities as such.

The bloodlands were where most of Europe's Jews lived, where Hitler and Stalin's imperial plans overlapped, where the Wehrmacht and the Red Army fought, and where the Soviet NKVD and the German SS concentrated their forces. Most killing sites were in the bloodlands: in the political geography of the 1930s and early 1940s, this meant Poland, the Baltic States, Soviet Belarus, Soviet Ukraine, and the western fringe of Soviet Russia. Stalin's crimes are often associated with Russia, and Hitler's with Germany. But the deadliest part of the Soviet Union was its non-Russian periphery, and Nazis generally killed beyond Germany. The horror of the twentieth century is thought to be located in the camps. But the concentration camps are not where most of the victims of National Socialism and Stalinism died. These misunderstandings regarding the sites and methods of mass killing prevent us from perceiving the horror of the twentieth century.

Germany was the site of concentration camps liberated by the Americans and the British in 1945; Russian Siberia was of course the site of much of the Gulag, made known in the West by Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The images of these camps, in photographs or in prose, only suggest the history of German and Soviet violence. About a million people died because they were sentenced to labor in German concentration camps--as distinct from the German gas chambers and the German killing fields and the German starvation zones, where ten million people died. Over a million lives were shortened by exhaustion and disease in the Soviet Gulag between 1933 and 1945-as distinct from the Soviet killing fields and the Soviet hunger regions, where some six million people died, about four million of them in the bloodlands. Ninety percent of those who entered the Gulag left it alive. Most of the people who entered German concentration camps (as opposed to the German gas chambers, death pits, and prisoner-of-war camps) also survived. The fate of concentration camp inmates, horrible though it was, is distinct from that of those many millions who were gassed, shot, or starved.

The distinction between concentration camps and killing sites cannot be made perfectly: people were executed and people were starved in camps. Yet there is a difference between a camp sentence and a death sentence, between labor and gas, between slavery and bullets. The tremendous majority of the mortal victims of both the German and the Soviet regimes never saw a concentration camp. Auschwitz was two things at once, a labor camp and a death facility, and the fate of non-Jews seized for labor and Jews selected for labor was very different from the fate ofJews selected for the gas chambers. Auschwitz thus belongs to two histories, related but distinct. Auschwitz-as-labor-camp is more representative of the experience of the large number of people who endured German (or Soviet) policies of concentration, whereas Auschwitz-as-death-facility is more typical of the fates of those who were deliberately killed. Most of the Jews who arrived at Auschwitz were simply gassed; they, like almost all of the fourteen million killed in the bloodlands, never spent time in a concentration camp.

The German and Soviet concentration camps surround the bloodlands, from both east and west, blurring the black with their shades of grey. At the end of the Second World War, American and British forces liberated German concentration camps such as Belsen and Dachau, but the western Allies liberated none of the important death facilities. The Germans carried out all of their major killing policies on lands subsequently occupied by the Soviets. The Red Army liberated Auschwitz, and it liberated the sites of Treblinka, Sobibór, Belzec, Chelmno, and Majdanek as well. American and British forces reached none of the bloodlands and saw none of the major killing sites. It is not just that American and British forces saw none of the places where the Soviets killed, leaving the crimes of Stalinism to be documented after the end of the Cold War and the opening of the archives. It is that they never saw the places where the Germans killed, meaning that understanding of Hitler's crimes has taken just as long. The photographs and films of German concentration camps were the closest that most westerners ever came to perceiving the mass killing. Horrible though these images were, they were only hints at the history of the bloodlands. They are not the whole story; sadly, they are not even an introduction.

Mass killing in Europe is usually associated with the Holocaust, and the Holocaust with rapid industrial killing. The image is too simple and clean. At the German and Soviet killing sites, the methods of murder were rather primitive. Of the fourteen million civilians and prisoners of war killed in the bloodlands between 1933 and 1945, more than half died because they were denied food. Europeans deliberately starved Europeans in horrific numbers in the middle of the twentieth century. The two largest mass killing actions after the Holocaust-Stalin's directed famines of the early 1930s and Hitler's starvation of Soviet prisoners of war in the early 1940s--involved this method of killing. Starvation was foremost not only in reality but in imagination. In a Hunger Plan, the Nazi regime projected the death by starvation of tens of millions of Slavs and Jews in the winter of 1941-1942.

After starvation came shooting, and then gassing. In Stalin's Great Terror of 1937-1938, nearly seven hundred thousand Soviet citizens were shot. The two hundred thousand or so Poles killed by the Germans and the Soviets during their joint occupation of Poland were shot. The more than three hundred thousand Belarusians and the comparable number of Poles executed in German "reprisals" were shot. The Jews killed in the Holocaust were about as likely to be shot as to be gassed.

For that matter, there was little especially modern about the gassing. The million or so Jews asphyxiated at Auschwitz were killed by hydrogen cyanide, a compound isolated in the eighteenth century. The 1.6 million or so Jews killed at Treblinka, Chelmno, Belzec, and Sobibor were asphyxiated by carbon monoxide, which even the ancient Greeks knew was lethal. In the 1940S hydrogen cyanide was used as a pesticide; carbon monoxide was produced by internal combustion engines. The Soviets and the Germans relied upon technologies that were hardly novel even in the 1930s and 1940s: internal combustion, railways, firearms, pesticides, barbed wire.

No matter which technology was used, the killing was personal. People who starved were observed, often from watchtowers, by those who denied them food. People who were shot were seen through the sights of rifles at very close range, or held by two men while a third placed a pistol at the base of the skull. People who were asphyxiated were rounded up, put on trains, and then rushed into the gas chambers. They lost their possessions and then their clothes and then, if they were women, their hair. Each one of them died a different death, since each one of them had lived a different life.

p. 399

Ideologies also tempt those who reject them. Ideology, when stripped by time or partisanship of its political and economic connections, becomes a moralizing form of explanation for mass killing, one that comfortably separates the people who explain from the people who kill. It is convenient to see the perpetrator just as someone who holds the wrong idea and is therefore different for that reason. It is reassuring to ignore the importance of economics and the complications of politics, factors that might in fact be common to historical perpetrators and those who later contemplate their actions. It is far more inviting, at least today in the West, to identify with the victims than to understand the historical setting that they shared with perpetrators and bystanders in the bloodlands. The identification with the victim affirms a radical separation from the perpetrator. The Treblinka guard who starts the engine or the NKVD officer who pulls the trigger is not me, he is the person who kills someone like myself. Yet it is unclear whether this identification with victims brings much knowledge, or whether this kind of alienation from the murderer is an ethical stance. It is not at all obvious that reducing history to morality plays makes anyone moral.

Unfortunately, claiming victim status does not itself bring sound ethical choices. Stalin and Hitler both claimed throughout their political careers to be victims. They persuaded millions of other people that they, too, were victims: of an international capitalist or Jewish conspiracy. During the German invasion of Poland, a German soldier believed that the death grimace of a Pole proved that Poles irrationally hated Germans. During the famine, a Ukrainian communist found himself beleaguered by the corpses of the starved at his doorstep. They both portrayed themselves as victims. No major war or act of mass killing in the twentieth century began without the aggressors or perpetrators first claiming innocence and victimhood. In the twenty-first century, we see a second wave of aggressive wars with victim claims, in which leaders not only present their peoples as victims but make explicit reference to the mass murders of the twentieth century. The human capacity for subjective victimhood is apparently limitless, and people who believe that they are victims can be motivated to perform acts of great violence. The Austrian policeman shooting babies at Mahileu imagined what the Soviets would do to his children.

The victims were people; a true identification with them would involve grasping their lives rather than grasping at their deaths. By definition the victims are dead, and unable to defend themselves from the use that others make of their deaths. It is easy to sanctify policies or identities by the deaths of the victims. It is less appealing, but morally more urgent, to understand the actions of the perpetrators. The moral danger, after all, is never that one might become a victim but that one might be a perpetrator or a bystander. It is tempting to say that a Nazi murderer is beyond the pale of understanding. Outstanding politicians and intellectuals--for example, Edvard Benes and Ilya Ehrenburg--yielded to this temptation during the war. The Czechoslovak president and the SovietJewish writer were justifying revenge upon the Germans as such. People who called others subhuman were themselves subhuman. Yet to deny a human being his human character is to render ethics impossible.

To yield to this temptation, to find other people to be inhuman, is to take a step toward, not away from, the Nazi position. To find other people incomprehensible is to abandon the search for understanding, and thus to abandon history.

To dismiss the Nazis or the Soviets as beyond human concern or historical understanding is to fall into their moral trap. The safer route is to realize that their motives for mass killing, however revolting to us, made sense to them. Heinrich Himmler said that it was good to see a hundred, or five hundred, or a thousand corpses lying side by side. What he meant was that to kill another person is a sacrifice of the purity of one's own soul, and that making this sacrifice elevated the killer to a higher moral level. This was an expression of a certain kind of devotion. It was an instance, albeit an extreme one, of a Nazi value that is not entirely alien to us: the sacrifice of the individual in the name of the community. Hermann Goring said that his conscience was named Adolf Hitler. For Germans who accepted Hitler as their Leader, faith was very important. The object of their faith could hardly have been more poorly chosen, but their capacity for faith is undeniable. It was Gandhi who noted that evil depends upon good, in the sense that those who come together to commit evil deeds must be devoted one to the other and believe in their cause. Devotion and faith did not make the Germans good, but they do make them human. Like everyone else, they had access to ethical thinking, even if their own was dreadfully misguided.

Stalinism, too, was a moral as well as a political system, in which innocent and guilty were psychic as well as legal categories, and moral thinking was ubiquitous. A young Ukrainian communist party activist who took food from the starving was sure that he was contributing to the triumph of socialism: "I believed because I wanted to believe:' His was a moral sensibility, if a mistaken one. When Margarete Buber-Neumann was in the Gulag, at Karaganda, a fellow prisoner told her that "you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs:' Many Stalinists and their sympathizers explained the losses of the famines and the Great Terror as necessary to the construction of a just and secure Soviet state. The very scale of the death seemed to make the appeal of such a hope all the stronger.

Yet the romantic justification for mass murder, that present evil when properly described is future good, is simply wrong. Perhaps doing nothing at all would have been far better. Or perhaps a milder policy would better have achieved the desired ends. To believe that vast suffering must be associated with great progress is to accept a kind of hermetic masochism: the presence of pain is a sign of some immanent or emergent good. To advance this sort of reasoning oneself is hermetic sadism: if I caused pain, it was because there was a higher purpose, known to me. Because Stalin represented the politburo which represented the central committee which represented the party which represented the working class which represented history, he had a special claim to speak for what was historically necessary. Such a status allowed him to absolve himself of all responsibility, and to place the blame for his failings upon others.

It cannot be denied that mass starvation brings political stability of a certain kind. The question must be: is that the sort of peace that is desired, or that should be desired? Mass murder does bind perpetrators to those who give them orders. Is that the right sort of political allegiance? Terror does consolidate a certain kind of regime. Is that kind of regime preferable? Killing civilians is in the interest of certain kinds of leaders. The question is not whether all this is historically true; the question is what is desirable. Are these leaders good leaders, and these regimes good regimes? If not, the question is: how can such policies be prevented?

Our contemporary culture of commemoration takes for granted that memory prevents murder. If people died in such large numbers, it is tempting to think, they must have died for something of transcendent value, which can be revealed, developed, and preserved in the right sort of political remembrance. The transcendent then turns out to be the national. The millions of victims must have died so that the Soviet Union could win a Great Patriotic War, or America a good war. Europe had to learn its pacifist lesson, Poland had to have its legend of freedom, Ukraine had to have its heroes, Belarus had to prove its virtue, Jews had to fulfill a Zionist destiny. Yet all of these later rationalizations, though they convey important truths about national politics and national psychologies, have little to do with memory as such. The dead are remembered, but the dead do not remember. Someone else had the power, and someone else decided how they died. Later on, someone else still decides why. When meaning is drawn from killing, the risk is that more killing would bring more meaning.

Here, perhaps, is a purpose for history, somewhere between the record of death and its constant reinterpretation. Only a history of mass killing can unite the numbers and the memories. Without history, the memories become private, which today means national; and the numbers become public, which is to say an instrument in the international competition for martyrdom. Memory is mine and I have the right to do with it as I please; numbers are objective and you must accept my counts whether you like them or not. Such reasoning allows a nationalist to hug himself with one arm and strike his neighbor with the other. After the end of the Second World War, and then again after the end of communism, nationalists throughout the bloodlands (and beyond) have indulged in the quantitative exaggeration of victimhood, thereby claiming for themselves the mantle of innocence." https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/pol116/snyder.htm
 

EduardBernstein

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2019
Messages
1,056
Reaction score
77
Points
50
Famines happened long before Stalin. Stalin killed 5 million Nazis. He liberated Auschwitz. He helped found Israel through supplies, and training.
 

EduardBernstein

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2019
Messages
1,056
Reaction score
77
Points
50
OP
Litwin

Litwin

Silver Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2017
Messages
6,316
Reaction score
351
Points
95
Location
GDL&Sweden

Correll

Diamond Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
63,832
Reaction score
8,436
Points
2,070
Rep. Michael McCaul is right actually, why so is few people in the world know it ?...n

Marxists sympathizers in positions of power in the education industry, twist the history books.


Teachers tend to lean left, and let the lies pass.
 
OP
Litwin

Litwin

Silver Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2017
Messages
6,316
Reaction score
351
Points
95
Location
GDL&Sweden
tl;dr

But he's right...The Holomodor is estimated by many researchers and scholars to have killed 10 million.
America had its own Holodomor.American Holodomor
Oh fuck off, commie douchebag.
There were 31 Holodomor famines in Raj India controlled by British capitalists.31 famines in 120 years of British Raj when compared to 17 in the 2000 years of India's history
can you stop playing your eternal commie Whataboutism?
"Whataboutism, also known as whataboutery, is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument, which in the United States is particularly associated with Soviet and Russian propaganda.
Whataboutism - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Whataboutism

upload_2019-8-27_22-36-53.jpeg
 

EduardBernstein

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2019
Messages
1,056
Reaction score
77
Points
50
Rep. Michael McCaul is right actually, why so is few people in the world know it ?...n

Marxists sympathizers in positions of power in the education industry, twist the history books.


Teachers tend to lean left, and let the lies pass.
Typical American anti intellectual goof. Americans don't want to invest in education, but instead want to invest in guns. Meanwhile China is more educated, and will overtake the United States as the superpower of the world.
 
OP
Litwin

Litwin

Silver Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2017
Messages
6,316
Reaction score
351
Points
95
Location
GDL&Sweden
Rep. Michael McCaul is right actually, why so is few people in the world know it ?...n

Marxists sympathizers in positions of power in the education industry, twist the history books.


Teachers tend to lean left, and let the lies pass.
this is will be my answer as well....

" Marxists sympathizers in positions of power in the education ( journalism , showbiz , etc.) industry"
 
Last edited:
OP
Litwin

Litwin

Silver Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2017
Messages
6,316
Reaction score
351
Points
95
Location
GDL&Sweden
Rep. Michael McCaul is right actually, why so is few people in the world know it ?...n

Marxists sympathizers in positions of power in the education industry, twist the history books.


Teachers tend to lean left, and let the lies pass.
Typical American anti intellectual goof. Americans don't want to invest in education, but instead want to invest in guns. Meanwhile China is more educated, and will overtake the United States as the superpower of the world.
move to china , commie traitor the hans will educate you

 
Last edited:

EduardBernstein

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2019
Messages
1,056
Reaction score
77
Points
50
Famines happened long before Stalin.....
you need to buy couple a book or two , dirty commie

Red Famine: Stalin's War on Ukraine" by Anne Applebaum


Ukrainian Institute, London

10K views 1 year ago

Anne Applebaum talking to Edward Lucas about her new book, "Red Famine: Stalin's War on Ukraine" at the event organised by ..
Hitler initiated WWII which killed 85 million people including 6 million Jews. Stalin simply cant be compared. Hitler killed with bullets, gas, ovens, and famine. Stalins alleged famines could have been caused by many other things because communism.The world at the time was in a deep depression. I'm sure that had nothing to do with it.
 

EduardBernstein

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2019
Messages
1,056
Reaction score
77
Points
50
Rep. Michael McCaul is right actually, why so is few people in the world know it ?...n

Marxists sympathizers in positions of power in the education industry, twist the history books.


Teachers tend to lean left, and let the lies pass.
this is will be my answer as well....

" Marxists sympathizers in positions of power in the education industry"
Educators make America great again. Trump makes America the wild wild west again.
 

Correll

Diamond Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
63,832
Reaction score
8,436
Points
2,070
Rep. Michael McCaul is right actually, why so is few people in the world know it ?...n

Marxists sympathizers in positions of power in the education industry, twist the history books.


Teachers tend to lean left, and let the lies pass.
Typical American anti intellectual goof. Americans don't want to invest in education, but instead want to invest in guns. Meanwhile China is more educated, and will overtake the United States as the superpower of the world.

I made a complaint about a failure of education and your consider that evidence that I am anti-education?


You are obviously a moron.
 

EduardBernstein

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2019
Messages
1,056
Reaction score
77
Points
50
Rep. Michael McCaul is right actually, why so is few people in the world know it ?...n

Marxists sympathizers in positions of power in the education industry, twist the history books.


Teachers tend to lean left, and let the lies pass.
Typical American anti intellectual goof. Americans don't want to invest in education, but instead want to invest in guns. Meanwhile China is more educated, and will overtake the United States as the superpower of the world.

I made a complaint about a failure of education and your consider that evidence that I am anti-education?


You are obviously a moron.
Many republicans are backwards, and against education, and educators. They want to keep America back from innovation, and progression.
 

Correll

Diamond Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
63,832
Reaction score
8,436
Points
2,070
Rep. Michael McCaul is right actually, why so is few people in the world know it ?...n

Marxists sympathizers in positions of power in the education industry, twist the history books.


Teachers tend to lean left, and let the lies pass.
this is will be my answer as well....

" Marxists sympathizers in positions of power in the education industry"
Educators make America great again. Trump makes America the wild wild west again.

Our educators are doing a shit job. It is mostly not their fault, but they are not helping.


Trump has nothing to do with this thread. Don't derail it, just because you can't stand to see Marxists called on their various genocides.
 

irosie91

Diamond Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2012
Messages
68,716
Reaction score
5,370
Points
1,815
Famines happened long before Stalin.....
you need to buy couple a book or two , dirty commie

Red Famine: Stalin's War on Ukraine" by Anne Applebaum


Ukrainian Institute, London

10K views 1 year ago

Anne Applebaum talking to Edward Lucas about her new book, "Red Famine: Stalin's War on Ukraine" at the event organised by ..
Hitler initiated WWII which killed 85 million people including 6 million Jews. Stalin simply cant be compared. Hitler killed with bullets, gas, ovens, and famine. Stalin alleged famines could have been caused by many other things because communism.The world at the time was in a deep depression. I'm sure that had nothing to do with it.
wrong ---Stalin was PURE EVIL. He did it. Of course the world wide
economic depression had something to do with his UNBRIDLED AMBITION---
like Hitler-----he USED IT
 

EduardBernstein

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2019
Messages
1,056
Reaction score
77
Points
50
Rep. Michael McCaul is right actually, why so is few people in the world know it ?...n

Marxists sympathizers in positions of power in the education industry, twist the history books.


Teachers tend to lean left, and let the lies pass.
Typical American anti intellectual goof. Americans don't want to invest in education, but instead want to invest in guns. Meanwhile China is more educated, and will overtake the United States as the superpower of the world.
move to china , commie traitor the hans will educated you

I'm a retired history professor. China was the most poor country on earth. Communism turned it around. Russia also became a superpower because of communism. Stalin saved Russia from becoming a fiefdom of slaves to Nazi Germany, and its industrialists who enslaved many Jews, and Russians.
 

Most reactions - Past 7 days

Forum List

Top