Keeping guns from criminals - liberals, what is your plan?

[Bern80]

So KAZ...

Do you see how any error is seen as the entire law not working? Its like saying laws against killing someone does not work because someone killed someone. MURDER LAW FAILURE ALL AROUND.

What happened to Kaz?

I think it's you that are mising what you're missing. Doesn't everybody who kills someone know killing someone is illegal? The point is for some types of behavior, legality is of no consequence to someone. People who kill people don't care that killing peope is illegal, which is obviously a far more agregious offense than owning a gun, ergo people who kill people also don't care that owning a gun is illegal, ergo more gun laws aren't likely to prevent more gun crime. Get it yet?

Yes! So you're saying crimes and the punishments that come along with them aren't needed because criminals will commit crimes anyway and nothing will change that.

Thanks for repeating what I said verbatim. Does that only apply to guns or is that across the board for Molesters, Murderers, rapist etc? Or just guns?

KAZZ?!?! Where you at buddy?

Probably lots of things, but it ultimately comes down to the individual. If you're in a state of mind to even contemplate murder or rape your mind is probably in no condition to ponder the ramifications of those actions. You could even go to less agregeous crimes like smoking weed. Though it doesn't matter because violence with guns are what we're concerned with here. Laws are enacted to have punishments for breaking them. Whether it is also a deterent to committing that crime is inversely related to it's severity. That is the more sever the crime the less likely the punishment for committing it is likely to deter someone from committing it.

 

[candycorn]

Enforce the laws we have. It is already illegal for mentally unstable people that are adjudged thus from having weapons. No one wants to do the paperwork or legal work to get the obviously crazy properly adjudged that way.

Improve mental health access and find someway to change the US perception that mental illness is not to be talked about or discussed.

Good idea.

Just out of curiosity how do you get around Dr./Patient confidentiality? Not a loaded question; just wanting to to know how you do it.

You don't have to, the Recent shooter was obviously sick and the cops knew it. from his behavior and his statements. There should have been something done to address his situation either by the local police or the navy.

As for your doctor BY LAW they are to report any threats you present to local authorities. Statements actions or things you display to them that make them believe you are a threat to self or others MUST be reported as far as I know that is the law in all States.

Doesn't sound all that effective in the 2nd part. But anything helps I suppose.

 

[Missourian]

It's a misnomer to believe that if gun laws had been non-existent that there would have been shooting back. Likely not in Columbine, Sandyhook, VA Tech, etc...

As for the question

It's a very long term proposition but the only way to effectively attack the problem is to begin to attack the supply and you do that by decreasing the demand.


Tax the holy crap out of firearms and ammunition. Pass laws making it a requirement that gun owners carry liabiltiy insurance per weapon--very expensive.

Also, make all gun crimes federal crimes and steep minimum sentences for armed robbery. You use a gun, you're going away for 20 years; no parole, no time off for good behavior, soyanara.

Basically make firearms the equivalent of cigarettes.

As stated it's a long-term proposition but the sooner we get started...

So poor people can't defend themselves but rich people can.

Great plan.

Ever hear of a poll tax?

It was a tax that disenfranchised poor voter by making damn sure they couldn't afford to exercise their constitutional right.

This would be the Second Amendment equivalent.

It wouldn't stand up to constitutional scrutiny for 30 seconds.

Don't know about that; what's your plan to prevent another Sandy Hook? Kevlar school uniforms?

Good question...what gun control measure can keep someone from stealing a weapon and killing the legal owner of that weapon, then going on a shooting spree?

Universal background checks?

Gun registrations?

This is why gun control is failing...everyone with half a brain can see that what they are selling isn't going to solve the problem they claim they are addressing.

 

[Steven_R]

KAZ: I ask people what should we do and they don't have an answer. You know what we should do to solve a problem? Nothing!!

Punish criminals. Let free men carry what they want where they want how they want when they want until they prove they are incapable of handling the responsibility.

 

[candycorn]

So poor people can't defend themselves but rich people can.

Great plan.

Ever hear of a poll tax?

It was a tax that disenfranchised poor voter by making damn sure they couldn't afford to exercise their constitutional right.

This would be the Second Amendment equivalent.

It wouldn't stand up to constitutional scrutiny for 30 seconds.

Don't know about that; what's your plan to prevent another Sandy Hook? Kevlar school uniforms?

Good question...what gun control measure can keep someone from stealing a weapon and killing the legal owner of that weapon, then going on a shooting spree?

Universal background checks?

Gun registrations?

This is why gun control is failing...everyone with half a brain can see that what they are selling isn't going to solve the problem they claim they are addressing.

Good to know you have a plan...whatever it is. Someday.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

I like your idea about punishment.

We have a bigger problem than that though... What's your idea?

Yes we do. One that doesn't come even close to being addressed by getting rid of guns.

Well, let's hear your idea.

I gave you my ideas. The sooner you realize Minority Report only exists in the land of make believe the better off you'll be.

 

[hipeter924]

Well most other countries go for gun regulation, as that isn't applicable in the US in most cases due to the constitution you are pretty much stuck. Would be better to establish voluntary gun free neighborhoods, as if laws will never be tough enough and the enforcement near impossible; you aren't going to get anywhere by telling gun owners 'you are dangerous' or to criminals 'please don't carry guns when you are on a stealing spree or drug dealing'.

 

[Missourian]

Don't know about that; what's your plan to prevent another Sandy Hook? Kevlar school uniforms?

Good question...what gun control measure can keep someone from stealing a weapon and killing the legal owner of that weapon, then going on a shooting spree?

Universal background checks?

Gun registrations?

This is why gun control is failing...everyone with half a brain can see that what they are selling isn't going to solve the problem they claim they are addressing.

Good to know you have a plan...whatever it is. Someday.

So you understand gun control can't prevent this crime either...got it.

 

[jon_berzerk]

Well most other countries go for gun regulation, as that isn't applicable in the US in most cases due to the constitution you are pretty much stuck. Would be better to establish voluntary gun free neighborhoods, as if laws will never be tough enough and the enforcement near impossible; you aren't going to get anywhere by telling gun owners 'you are dangerous' or to criminals 'please don't carry guns when you are on a stealing spree or drug dealing'.

Would be better to establish voluntary gun free neighborhoods

i bet the bad guys would go along with that

 

[JoeB131]

Every time there's a shooting, liberals run around saying this proves we need more gun laws. I ask liberals over and over how exactly you are going to keep guns out of the hands of criminals every time you say you want more gun laws.

In particular, address given that drugs are illegal, and yet any parent knows any kid can get as much pot as they want. There are millions of guns in the US, millions more in the world. So don't just say more laws, explain how more laws are going to actually work.

So, there have been 7 shootings killing at least 10 people in the last decade. The only thing you've achieved so far is that no one was shooting back.

80% of gun murders are committed by people killing people they know.

I don't worry so much about the "Criminals" as much as I do the vast majority of you drooling idiots who have neither the training or judgement to own a gun.

 

[Mac1958]

.

I've sifted through a few pages on this thread and I've seen a lot of deflection and vague insults, some of the traditional name-calling, but I'm not quite sure I've encountered a clear plan.

Is there a plan? And if so, please include how you intend on getting out of the hands of criminals, precisely, thanks.

.

 

[candycorn]

Good question...what gun control measure can keep someone from stealing a weapon and killing the legal owner of that weapon, then going on a shooting spree?

Universal background checks?

Gun registrations?

This is why gun control is failing...everyone with half a brain can see that what they are selling isn't going to solve the problem they claim they are addressing.

Good to know you have a plan...whatever it is. Someday.

So you understand gun control can't prevent this crime either...got it.

If there was a massive tax on the gun that was "stolen" it likey wouldn't have been purchased in the first place...fact.

So no gun stolen; no mass murder in this case.

 

[Brain357]

Enforce the laws we have. It is already illegal for mentally unstable people that are adjudged thus from having weapons. No one wants to do the paperwork or legal work to get the obviously crazy properly adjudged that way.

Improve mental health access and find someway to change the US perception that mental illness is not to be talked about or discussed.

Good idea.

Just out of curiosity how do you get around Dr./Patient confidentiality? Not a loaded question; just wanting to to know how you do it.

You don't have to, the Recent shooter was obviously sick and the cops knew it. from his behavior and his statements. There should have been something done to address his situation either by the local police or the navy.

As for your doctor BY LAW they are to report any threats you present to local authorities. Statements actions or things you display to them that make them believe you are a threat to self or others MUST be reported as far as I know that is the law in all States.

And with our current laws the person can stalk and threaten their psychiatrist and nothing is done. Then he can legally buy a gun and shoot up a theater.
Psychiatrist warned campus police about Aurora shooter a month before mass murder « Hot Air

 

[Brain357]

Good to know you have a plan...whatever it is. Someday.

So you understand gun control can't prevent this crime either...got it.

If there was a massive tax on the gun that was "stolen" it likey wouldn't have been purchased in the first place...fact.

So no gun stolen; no mass murder in this case.

Doesn't the gun owner have the gun to keep from being robbed/killed? If it doesn't work then maybe he shouldn't have it in the first place.

 

[JoeB131]

.

I've sifted through a few pages on this thread and I've seen a lot of deflection and vague insults, some of the traditional name-calling, but I'm not quite sure I've encountered a clear plan.

Is there a plan? And if so, please include how you intend on getting out of the hands of criminals, precisely, thanks.

.

1) Complete and thorough background checks.
2) Full liability for gun manufacturers and sellers for crimes committed with their products.
3) Gun buy-backs and stricter licensing.
4) Required insurance for gun ownership.

 

[Mac1958]

.

I've sifted through a few pages on this thread and I've seen a lot of deflection and vague insults, some of the traditional name-calling, but I'm not quite sure I've encountered a clear plan.

Is there a plan? And if so, please include how you intend on getting out of the hands of criminals, precisely, thanks.

.

1) Complete and thorough background checks.
2) Full liability for gun manufacturers and sellers for crimes committed with their products.
3) Gun buy-backs and stricter licensing.
4) Required insurance for gun ownership.

Thanks for the response.

#2 could essentially be a death knell for the industry, which I suspect is the point.

How would you get guns out of the hands of criminals?

.

 

[JoeB131]

.

I've sifted through a few pages on this thread and I've seen a lot of deflection and vague insults, some of the traditional name-calling, but I'm not quite sure I've encountered a clear plan.

Is there a plan? And if so, please include how you intend on getting out of the hands of criminals, precisely, thanks.

.

1) Complete and thorough background checks.
2) Full liability for gun manufacturers and sellers for crimes committed with their products.
3) Gun buy-backs and stricter licensing.
4) Required insurance for gun ownership.

Thanks for the response.

#2 could essentially be a death knell for the industry, which I suspect is the point.

How would you get guns out of the hands of criminals?

.

No, it would do what EVERY OTHER industry does. Take responsibility.

When the government started holding liquor stores responsible for selling to minors, guess what, they started carding.

When they held tobacco companies responsible for kids smoking, guess what, they started enforcing the age limits.

The reason why criminals HAVE guns is because the gun industry WANTS them to have them.

Then they can go back to Nancy Lanza and scare her into stocking up like the Zombie Apocolypse is coming.

If gun ownership was treated as a privilage instead of a "right", we'd have much more responsible gun ownership.

 

[Mac1958]

1) Complete and thorough background checks.
2) Full liability for gun manufacturers and sellers for crimes committed with their products.
3) Gun buy-backs and stricter licensing.
4) Required insurance for gun ownership.

Thanks for the response.

#2 could essentially be a death knell for the industry, which I suspect is the point.

How would you get guns out of the hands of criminals?

.

No, it would do what EVERY OTHER industry does. Take responsibility.

When the government started holding liquor stores responsible for selling to minors, guess what, they started carding.

When they held tobacco companies responsible for kids smoking, guess what, they started enforcing the age limits.

The reason why criminals HAVE guns is because the gun industry WANTS them to have them.

Then they can go back to Nancy Lanza and scare her into stocking up like the Zombie Apocolypse is coming.

If gun ownership was treated as a privilage instead of a "right", we'd have much more responsible gun ownership.

So, the plan for getting guns out of the hands of criminals...?

.

 

[JoeB131]

[

So, the plan for getting guns out of the hands of criminals...?

.

Get them out of the hands of everyone else.

Simple enough.

Criminals have guns because EVERYONE ELSE has guns.

In countries where they LIMIT who can have a gun- guess what- crooks don't have them.

I mean, this is not really that complicated.

Oh, most gun deaths are NOT criminals shooting people.

Most gun deaths are suicides, accidents and domestic argument over who drank the last can of Milwaukee's Best"

 

[RetiredGySgt]

.

I've sifted through a few pages on this thread and I've seen a lot of deflection and vague insults, some of the traditional name-calling, but I'm not quite sure I've encountered a clear plan.

Is there a plan? And if so, please include how you intend on getting out of the hands of criminals, precisely, thanks.

.

1) Complete and thorough background checks.
2) Full liability for gun manufacturers and sellers for crimes committed with their products.
3) Gun buy-backs and stricter licensing.
4) Required insurance for gun ownership.

#2 just as soon as say car manufacturers are held financially responsible for car accidents by all drivers.

#4 is unconstitutional as well, ever hear of a poll tax?