Just A Thought

[Annie]

President-elect Obama won last Tuesday, I wrote then that I hoped he'd do better than my apprehensions. I meant that, I still do. He won with over 50% of the vote, by about 6 points. No way was whatever fraud that occurred, going to exceed those 6 points. No question, he was the winner, fair and square.

Well, that was the same as GW back in 2004, while not 6 points, it was over 3, again an amount that fraud couldn't explain, thus definitive.

For the past 3 days all I've seen are Obama partisans, either gloating, threatening, or browbeating those they assume are conservatives. They complain that many are not as ready to let the new administration exist without criticism.

I was on this board a lot in 2004. The conservatives at the time, (for the most part, there are always the blowhards/bullies/nasties), which were overwhelmingly the majority, offered empathy with the liberal posters, asked them to give it a chance, acknowledged that they'd picked up many congressional seats, and said we needed to 'pull together' as a country. In the main the more liberal responded that they'd just begun to fight. They were getting rid of the chimp and going to get him impeached.

Then came 2006, it got worse. They felt that will the majority in the House, they should impeach Bush. The anger became overwhelming, seriously it was tangible.

Now here we are. You are in control, near total. While there really are few specifics you can lay at the feet of your leadership, the real agenda seems to be 'payback.' Whether it's 'the rich are going to pay!' or 'Because we CAN' or 'Fairness Doctrine', it's all about the Republicans. Not a winning strategy, in the sense of building a consensus. Not one person here has said, "Look, here's some points that we could work together on, or rather we could all encourage our representatives to do so." No, it's 'because we now have the power, see how you like it.'

Interestingly I considered writing this post while at school, I came home to find the 'Republicans are Bullies' thread. Seriously entertaining, sad, but entertaining. Inclusiveness seems lost upon too many on the left. There are those on the right that are like that, but fewer and mostly ignored by the mainstream conservatives.

I'm continuing my own mindset, like it or not, Obama is in and has near complete control over Congress. With Emanuel's help, he'll do what he can with the Democrats. I hope whether they choose from the center or the left, it works out for the country. I'll encourage representatives though to point out every misstep, misspeak, wrong policy, loudly and publicly. It should be daily, the President and his minions have so much too do, the mistakes are continuous, they need to be hammered. The image of inexperience and mean spiritedness of the Democrats must be constructed, fired, and hammered home. Not one success should be a given, all should be challenged and a better alternative put out there, once that is easy to understand and the people can connect with.

 

[AVG-JOE]

You are absolutely right, Kathianne. This is not a time for gloating or 'cramming the liberal agenda' down anybodies throat. This nation faces some serious shit and partisan politics from either side must not be tolerated.

It is up to us. The people who share news stories on boards like this and encourage our fellow posters to write those emails to congress. We need to be especially watchful of the democratic leadership in congress and help our new president call 'bullshit' on any legislation or shenanigans that even has the perception of partisan politics as its motive.

The worst thing about Bush was his disinterest in opposing viewpoints. This trait branded him as a selfish wielder of power and not a leader. In the unlikely event that Obama follows in the footsteps of rewarding friends like Bush rewarded 'loyal Bushies' we need to call 'bullshit' on him.

Anyway you look at it, it is up to us to keep them honest.

-Joe

 

[Caligirl]

Agreed, but I would also say that it is in the eye of the beholder. Example, why are there already "impeach obama" sites (an excellent idea to show how silly the whole impeachment thing is anymore) ... and you certainly must recall how it was considered 'unpatriotic' to oppose the war in 2001/2002/2003? THAT was when the right said "you must support this guy he is your president or else you hate america"

After 2004, which I disagree was legitimate, the right called any evidence I would show of electronic rigging "sour grapes." That was hardly compassionate.

Still, I wish the left had class at this point. I like hearing Willow's opinions and Paperboy's posts and stuff - and I cringe when I see the left telling them to STFU. Dissent is patriotic. The opposition party has a real role and thank god for it.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Agreed, but I would also say that it is in the eye of the beholder. Example, why are there already "impeach obama" sites (an excellent idea to show how silly the whole impeachment thing is anymore) ... and you certainly must recall how it was considered 'unpatriotic' to oppose the war in 2001/2002/2003? THAT was when the right said "you must support this guy he is your president or else you hate america"

After 2004, which I disagree was legitimate, the right called any evidence I would show of electronic rigging "sour grapes." That was hardly compassionate.

Still, I wish the left had class at this point. I like hearing Willow's opinions and Paperboy's posts and stuff - and I cringe when I see the left telling them to STFU. Dissent is patriotic. The opposition party has a real role and thank god for it.

-Joe

 

[Silence]

I'm surprised you saw gloating as Gunny specifically forbids it.

I think the difference between Obama's 6 point win v. Bush 3 point win is that Obama's was accompanied by over 350 Electoral votes and didn't hinge on ONE state in particular whereas Bush's victory hinged on OH where there was a Republican Sec of State and massive reports of voter irregularities, much like in 2000 when his victory also hinged on a Repub Sec of State and voter irregularities.

You'll never convince most Democrats that Bush won those two elections fairly and I'm not sure why you'd even try to since the past can't be undone and our opinions didn't matter then anymore than they matter now.

Just like anyone who believes Obama somehow stole 7 states away from the Republican party are entitled to their opinion and their opinions won't change the results.

as for pointing out Obama's mistakes please don't be so disingenuous as to try to convince anyone that you wouldn't do it anyway, even if the Libs on this board were throwing rose petals at your feet and begging you to join them in singing "give peace a chance"

The reality is we, as liberals have had to sit back and watch as Bush ruled with an iron fist. he steamrolled over the Democrats after 9/11 and the media helped him wholeheartedly. Anyone who dared speak out against the bush administration was cut down like a sappling tree. It was disgusting.

How anyone can deny the damage done to our country by the Bush administration is beyond me. Look at how the world views us.

So, yes, please do point out mistakes and missteps. It's what we expected anyway. No big deal.

 

[USJD]

I'm surprised you saw gloating as Gunny specifically forbids it.

I think the difference between Obama's 6 point win v. Bush 3 point win is that Obama's was accompanied by over 350 Electoral votes and didn't hinge on ONE state in particular whereas Bush's victory hinged on OH where there was a Republican Sec of State and massive reports of voter irregularities, much like in 2000 when his victory also hinged on a Repub Sec of State and voter irregularities.

You'll never convince most Democrats that Bush won those two elections fairly and I'm not sure why you'd even try to since the past can't be undone and our opinions didn't matter then anymore than they matter now.

Just like anyone who believes Obama somehow stole 7 states away from the Republican party are entitled to their opinion and their opinions won't change the results.

as for pointing out Obama's mistakes please don't be so disingenuous as to try to convince anyone that you wouldn't do it anyway, even if the Libs on this board were throwing rose petals at your feet and begging you to join them in singing "give peace a chance"

The reality is we, as liberals have had to sit back and watch as Bush ruled with an iron fist. he steamrolled over the Democrats after 9/11 and the media helped him wholeheartedly. Anyone who dared speak out against the bush administration was cut down like a sappling tree. It was disgusting.

How anyone can deny the damage done to our country by the Bush administration is beyond me. Look at how the world views us.

So, yes, please do point out mistakes and missteps. It's what we expected anyway. No big deal.

Well said again....

 

[rayboyusmc]

Look at all the attacks on Obama already by the right. He hasn't even gotten into office and their complaining.

 

[Caligirl]

I think the difference between Obama's 6 point win v. Bush 3 point win is that Obama's was accompanied by over 350 Electoral votes and didn't hinge on ONE state in particular whereas Bush's victory hinged on OH where there was a Republican Sec of State and massive reports of voter irregularities,

Oh and that SOS was head of the Ohio Bush Reelection committee.

 

[Silence]

Oh and that SOS was head of the Ohio Bush Reelection committee.

so was Katherine Harris in 2000

 

[Annie]

I'm surprised you saw gloating as Gunny specifically forbids it.

I think the difference between Obama's 6 point win v. Bush 3 point win is that Obama's was accompanied by over 350 Electoral votes and didn't hinge on ONE state in particular whereas Bush's victory hinged on OH where there was a Republican Sec of State and massive reports of voter irregularities, much like in 2000 when his victory also hinged on a Repub Sec of State and voter irregularities.

You'll never convince most Democrats that Bush won those two elections fairly and I'm not sure why you'd even try to since the past can't be undone and our opinions didn't matter then anymore than they matter now.

Just like anyone who believes Obama somehow stole 7 states away from the Republican party are entitled to their opinion and their opinions won't change the results.

as for pointing out Obama's mistakes please don't be so disingenuous as to try to convince anyone that you wouldn't do it anyway, even if the Libs on this board were throwing rose petals at your feet and begging you to join them in singing "give peace a chance"

The reality is we, as liberals have had to sit back and watch as Bush ruled with an iron fist. he steamrolled over the Democrats after 9/11 and the media helped him wholeheartedly. Anyone who dared speak out against the bush administration was cut down like a sappling tree. It was disgusting.

How anyone can deny the damage done to our country by the Bush administration is beyond me. Look at how the world views us.

So, yes, please do point out mistakes and missteps. It's what we expected anyway. No big deal.

Again, I would direct you to the 'past is past' and we are supposed to be one country. Whatever your feelings or mine, like it or not we are both citizens, with a vested interest in this country.

To disagree is normal, especially if you believe, no matter how absurd, you've been shafted. On the other hand, attributing malice on the opposition, regardless of party affiliation, is an exercise in futility. It also leads to a hardening of positions, rather than finding a way to work through differences. That was my point. I'm not saying it would have happened, if the 'left' would have wanted to work together, it may have flown apart anyways, but the right tried. Now I'm seeing no 'hands out', rather an attitude of 'you deserve everything we can throw at you.' Want to talk about payback, if fortunes turn? The filibusters of the last 2 years are a result of what came before. If the same can be done with judicial appointments, do you think they wouldn't?

The sense of civility has been lost throughout our country, including the Senate which used to be a saving grace. If we don't change what's going on, we'll all be in more trouble than just the current economic mess.

 

[Caligirl]

but the right tried.

Some of the right maybe, I saw very little of it on the board I visited in 2004.

Now I'm seeing no 'hands out', rather an attitude of 'you deserve everything we can throw at you.'

There are certainly hands out. I have applauded willow and paperboy repeatedly, from slightly-left-of-center. Other posters further left have been even more gracious.

Obama has asked Lugar to be in his cabinet. Lugar declined. he is asking Powell and others to be in named positions.

Just because a small percentage of wing nuts ona message board are behaving like children (and they might be children, how would we know) is no reason to assume that "the left" is a monolithic group.

 

[Silence]

Again, I would direct you to the 'past is past' and we are supposed to be one country. Whatever your feelings or mine, like it or not we are both citizens, with a vested interest in this country.

To disagree is normal, especially if you believe, no matter how absurd, you've been shafted. On the other hand, attributing malice on the opposition, regardless of party affiliation, is an exercise in futility. It also leads to a hardening of positions, rather than finding a way to work through differences. That was my point. I'm not saying it would have happened, if the 'left' would have wanted to work together, it may have flown apart anyways, but the right tried. Now I'm seeing no 'hands out', rather an attitude of 'you deserve everything we can throw at you.' Want to talk about payback, if fortunes turn? The filibusters of the last 2 years are a result of what came before. If the same can be done with judicial appointments, do you think they wouldn't?

The sense of civility has been lost throughout our country, including the Senate which used to be a saving grace. If we don't change what's going on, we'll all be in more trouble than just the current economic mess.

It's been TWO DAYS since the election kath.... how hard did you TRY? really? c'mon......

Of course right now the left is feeling vindictive. We've been subjected to teh right's punishing blows for 8 long years, 16 if you consider the treatment of Bill Clinton and how horrible that was for the Democrats.

You are right, the sense of civility has been lost in our country....nay not lost...thrown away. By whom? the neo-conservative rightwingers. The Karl Rove diehard believers who think that to get power or stay in power anything is fair game, regardless of who it hurts or if it's even true.

Bush 41 was rumored to have had a long ongoing affair with a Jennifer Fitzgerald but the media never reported it out of respect for him and his place in government. It's bad form to try to humiliate a top U.S. official as it weakens their standing in the rest of the world.

Jennifer Fitzgerald - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Past presidents also had affairs, quite openly, which the media never reported on.

That changed with Bill Clinton. No one gave Bill Clinton that consideration. From the moment he began running for President the hounds were out and they hunted him and his wife relentlessly for the entire tenure of his presidency.

80 MILLION tax payer dollars were spent to investigate Clinton and his wife for various "scandals" nothing could ever be proven except a blow job and that he lied about it under oath during a PRIVATE law suit (which is NOT a fed offence since the case wasn't in federal court).

All I'll say is that give it some time. Liberals/Dems don't seem quite as hardheaded and cruel as Repubs so by Jan, when it sinks in that we really DID win, we'll be more apt to reach out and say all is forgiven and let's work together. For now, I think the Repubs should take their lumps....they've earned em.

 

[Annie]

It's been TWO DAYS since the election kath.... how hard did you TRY? really? c'mon......

Of course right now the left is feeling vindictive. We've been subjected to teh right's punishing blows for 8 long years, 16 if you consider the treatment of Bill Clinton and how horrible that was for the Democrats.

You are right, the sense of civility has been lost in our country....nay not lost...thrown away. By whom? the neo-conservative rightwingers. The Karl Rove diehard believers who think that to get power or stay in power anything is fair game, regardless of who it hurts or if it's even true.

Bush 41 was rumored to have had a long ongoing affair with a Jennifer Fitzgerald but the media never reported it out of respect for him and his place in government. It's bad form to try to humiliate a top U.S. official as it weakens their standing in the rest of the world.

Jennifer Fitzgerald - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Past presidents also had affairs, quite openly, which the media never reported on.

That changed with Bill Clinton. No one gave Bill Clinton that consideration. From the moment he began running for President the hounds were out and they hunted him and his wife relentlessly for the entire tenure of his presidency.

80 MILLION tax payer dollars were spent to investigate Clinton and his wife for various "scandals" nothing could ever be proven except a blow job and that he lied about it under oath during a PRIVATE law suit (which is NOT a fed offence since the case wasn't in federal court).

All I'll say is that give it some time. Liberals/Dems don't seem quite as hardheaded and cruel as Repubs so by Jan, when it sinks in that we really DID win, we'll be more apt to reach out and say all is forgiven and let's work together. For now, I think the Repubs should take their lumps....they've earned em.

Speaking of c'mon, whether or not Bush did or didn't have an affair, that wouldn't be any better of an attack or successful than landed for Clinton with Monica, proven and while in office. Yet, well never mind, if you don't see the problem now, you never will.

 

[AVG-JOE]

This is the kind of partisan bullshit that we have been wasting time and resources on for the last 20+ years.

"But, he got away with it and the media did nothing!!! My guy can't fart without a special prosecutor being appointed at taxpayer expense!!" Good night, people... I've seen less childish play among 3rd graders!

The past is past. I pity the fools who can't even let Obama take office before starting a witch hunt. I pity the fools who can't wait to get their pound of flesh now that they have the knife. Both are destined to be left behind, stewing in their sense of 'losing the game' and living bitterly as the owners of the last vestige of bad politics when history finishes turning that black page.

This is not a game any more! We no longer have winners and losers - we are all in the same boat! Won't we look stupid from space if we set it on fire to rather than see it sailed on a different course? Especially stupid when the new captain is has yet to prove any unwillingness to hear course suggestions from all sides!

The young people in America, a generation who is the most color blind to labels like 'conservative' and 'liberal' in the history of this wounded nation, have spoken loud and clear that the good old boy favoritism and special interest politics played effectively by all the leaders of both parties and perfected by Bush 2 are over.

Welcome to the 21st century - money is no longer everything.

If you have a specific beef with or praise for an action, performed or proposed the leadership of your nation, it is your privilege, nay your duty to speak out, but the tit-for-tat politics must end now. We owe it to the kids.

-Joe

 

[dilloduck]

This is the kind of partisan bullshit that we have been wasting time and resources on for the last 20+ years.

"But, he got away with it and the media did nothing!!! My guy can't fart without a special prosecutor being appointed at taxpayer expense!!" Good night, people... I've seen less childish play among 3rd graders!

The past is past. I pity the fools who can't even let Obama take office before starting a witch hunt. I pity the fools who can't wait to get their pound of flesh now that they have the knife. Both are destined to be left behind, stewing in their sense of 'losing the game' and living bitterly as the owners of the last vestige of bad politics when history finishes turning that black page.

This is not a game any more! We no longer have winners and losers - we are all in the same boat! Won't we look stupid from space if we set it on fire to rather than see it sailed on a different course? Especially stupid when the new captain is has yet to prove any unwillingness to hear course suggestions from all sides!

The young people in America, a generation who is the most color blind to labels like 'conservative' and 'liberal' in the history of this wounded nation, have spoken loud and clear that the good old boy favoritism and special interest politics played effectively by all the leaders of both parties and perfected by Bush 2 are over.

Welcome to the 21st century - money is no longer everything.

If you have a specific beef with or praise for an action, performed or proposed the leadership of your nation, it is your privilege, nay your duty to speak out, but the tit-for-tat politics must end now. We owe it to the kids.

-Joe

money is no longer everything ? Just how did this last election prove that ?

 

[Silence]

Money is still everything.... hence the panic over the economy.

Kath:

Speaking of c'mon, whether or not Bush did or didn't have an affair, that wouldn't be any better of an attack or successful than landed for Clinton with Monica, proven and while in office. Yet, well never mind, if you don't see the problem now, you never will.

apparently Bush Sr had the affair while CIA director, VP AND President. The media kept quiet about it. but whatever.

I see the problem Kath. The problem is that now that the Republicans are no longer in control suddenly they are all about "getting along" and "uniting the country" They are depending on the Dems to once again do the right thing.....something they themselves were unwilling to do.

I see the problem.... I just think it's funny that now you see the problem too but for different reasons.

 

[glockmail]

....
For the past 3 days all I've seen are Obama partisans, either gloating, threatening, or browbeating those they assume are conservatives. .....

Let them, as it will only make us stronger. Obama got less votes than Bush in 04 (taking into account population growth). Conservatism won last Tuesday; we just didn't have a candidate.

Come on liberals- take the country as far left as you can. I DARE YOU.

 

[AVG-JOE]

money is no longer everything ? Just how did this last election prove that ?

The election didn't prove it... The reasons why young voters were excited about it does. The number of voters was not nearly as telling as the number of voters, young and old, who weren't apathetic.

-Joe

 

[Annie]

Money is still everything.... hence the panic over the economy.

Kath:



apparently Bush Sr had the affair while CIA director, VP AND President. The media kept quiet about it. but whatever.

I see the problem Kath. The problem is that now that the Republicans are no longer in control suddenly they are all about "getting along" and "uniting the country" They are depending on the Dems to once again do the right thing.....something they themselves were unwilling to do.

I see the problem.... I just think it's funny that now you see the problem too but for different reasons.

Cute, he had an affair, affirmative, with Dan Dan Quayle to boot. No, not reported, trust me on this. Right. Talk about libel. Oh wait, doesn't work the same for public figures.

Pitiful you are.

 

[glockmail]

..... now that the Republicans are no longer in control suddenly they are all about "getting along" and "uniting the country" .....

Not this republican. I want them to force their agenda on the American people as far left as they can. I DARE THEM TO.