Judge Blocks Oklahoma’s Ban on Using Shariah Law in Court

[chanel]

Exactly. And anyone who argues that Sharia and US values are compatible needs some re-education. We protect children in this country. Even Muslim ones. Errrr!

 

[Varth Dader]

Exactly. And anyone who argues that Sharia and US values are compatible needs some re-education. We protect children in this country. Even Muslim ones. Errrr!

So what do we do about all the states that allow kids to get married?

 

[Ozmar]

Exactly. And anyone who argues that Sharia and US values are compatible needs some re-education. We protect children in this country. Even Muslim ones. Errrr!

So what do we do about all the states that allow kids to get married?

Apparently we argue that because those states have arbitrary laws on the matter, we should allow even more arbitrary sharia law. An illogical argument. the two have nothing to do with each other. If anything, we should move to eliminate those arbitrary laws in those states. Accepting sharia is a step in the wrong direction.

 

[Ozmar]

...Indeed. And criminal prosecution can be a forum for those who try to use sharia in a super-legal fashion...

Explain to me why the following can't happen:

Your two neighbors are Muslims. They have a dispute over the interest rate that one is charging the other. One is alleging that it's OK according to Sharia law. The other is saying it is usury. They ask you to settle their dispute according to Sharia law.

Are you telling me you are committing a crime if you do?

Explain to my why the following should happen: I'm a non-muslim. I have a dispute with my credit card company over an interest rate. They say "fuck you, see you in court."
Two neighbors are muslims. They have a dispute over an interest rate. One neighbor thinks he is above our law, and tries to pull the sharia card, knowing full-well that the agreements that he got involved in were within our legal framework, yet he thinks he is entitled to be above our laws because he is a muslim.

Explain to me what, if anything, is fair about this scenario.

 

[chanel]

And explain to me how decent civilized people could marry off their own 10 year olds. Its disgusting and that's why this OK law is needed.

 

[logical4u]

"Sharia" is not a religion. It is a system of law that directly conflicts with the Bill of Rights in this country.

Sharia is a system of law - WITHIN a religion, like Halakha. It can be interpreted different ways and some of those ways may not conflict with the Bill of Rights. If they do, well, in our country, the Bill of Rights overrules.

Please, please, give an example of a country that uses Sharia laws that you would want this country to follow. Where does Sharia law offer the freedom and liberty that are found here?

No. I'm not. Because that is a strawman argument. We aren't arguing that our country should follow Sharia - or any religious law and the possibility of that happening is so small as to be laughable. We are a constitutional government with a bill of rights. Religious law from a variety of religions, most notably Christianity is already in use, through voluntary agreements in our civil and family law system in much the same way muslims want to use Sharia to in mortgages, divorce, and similar types of situations. And in none of those cases do religious law overrule U.S. law. To do so would take a tremendous political movement to amend the constitution that, quite frankly I don't see happening when our Muslim population is only 2%, and quite westernized in outlook and values. If the dominant Christian fundamentalists haven't been able to bring about the changes they've been striving for how would you expect Muslims to?

Are you going to answer my question?

You are not going to answer the question: Please, please, give an example of a country that uses Sharia laws that you would want this country to follow. Where does Sharia law offer the freedom and liberty that are found here?

Are you acting like the Europeans, that were very generous to immigrating muslims (that are now sucking the life out of European societies)? Or do you just prefer to sit very still and repeat: It can't happen here, It can't happen here? My point was there really isn't anything good that will come from "allowing" Sharia law into our court system. The fact that you wouldn't attempt to answer lets me know that, at least, you are aware of that (you are just comparing political pressure to dimminish the Christian church of law abiding citizens, for the most part, to a religion that has millions and millions, more than some countries' populations as extremists that are willing to murder, without discrimmination). The muslims that are honorable and spiritual, are not in question. The muslims that use Sharia law to oppress the local populations are the main concern (without Sharia, they are pretty much powerless), why are you so determined to hand them the power to disrupt our society (more than they have, already)?

Your question: If the dominant Christian fundamentalists haven't been able to bring about the changes they've been striving for how would you expect Muslims to?

As far as I know, no "dominant Christian fundamentalists" have formed groups to murder, without discrimmination. As far as I know, no "dominant Christian fundamentalists" participate in "honor killings". As far as I know, no "dominant Christian fundamentalists" believe that "sinners" should be stoned to the death. As far as I know, no "dominant Christian fundamentalists" have been suicide bombers. As far as I know, no "dominant Christian fundamentalists" have made the claim that the Jewish people were not in the Middle East before 1948. As far as I know, no "dominant Christian fundamentalists" kidnaps political leaders' family members or children to force action for "their politics".
As far as I know, no "dominant Christian fundamentalists" murder politicians' loved ones for a message of: listen to me or else, more will die.
I am getting tired typing, but I could go on, is that clear enough?
If you want to deny it, please list the attrocities by the "dominant Christian fundamentalists" so we can do a timeline, number of people killed, or societies in oppression by the muslim extremists.

 

[logical4u]

Because Oklahoma would not recognize it as lawful....

As far as I can see the OK law does not directly attack the rights of individuals/companies.....they still have equal rights under U.S. law....same as anybody else....

Where in the amendment do you see the idea that a Sharia tribunal set up by Muslims would not be lawful?

Any decision made by an "unlawful" court would not be binding on the parties, involved.

 

[logical4u]

...Indeed. And criminal prosecution can be a forum for those who try to use sharia in a super-legal fashion...

Explain to me why the following can't happen:

Your two neighbors are Muslims. They have a dispute over the interest rate that one is charging the other. One is alleging that it's OK according to Sharia law. The other is saying it is usury. They ask you to settle their dispute according to Sharia law.

Are you telling me you are committing a crime if you do?

How could 'I' settle it, I do not know Sharia law well enough to use it to abuse it???????
If they settle it between themselves (based on Sharia), it does not involve the court.

 

[bodecea]

...Indeed. And criminal prosecution can be a forum for those who try to use sharia in a super-legal fashion...

Explain to me why the following can't happen:

Your two neighbors are Muslims. They have a dispute over the interest rate that one is charging the other. One is alleging that it's OK according to Sharia law. The other is saying it is usury. They ask you to settle their dispute according to Sharia law.

Are you telling me you are committing a crime if you do?

Explain to my why the following should happen: I'm a non-muslim. I have a dispute with my credit card company over an interest rate. They say "fuck you, see you in court."
Two neighbors are muslims. They have a dispute over an interest rate. One neighbor thinks he is above our law, and tries to pull the sharia card, knowing full-well that the agreements that he got involved in were within our legal framework, yet he thinks he is entitled to be above our laws because he is a muslim.

Explain to me what, if anything, is fair about this scenario.

Totally fair...cause the results would be the same....just different excuses.

 

[Old Rocks]

An Oklahoma constitutional amendment aimed at stopping the use of Islamic law in its courts



Now no law can discriminate against any religion in the US.

Want a law that says a judge can not use the laws of christianity in a court?

What "Christian laws" are you referring to....? ...Thou shalt not kill....??

sO you'd rather allow Islamic law that says... thou SHALL kill.....?

The Ten Commandments Bible list — What are the Ten Commandments?
The Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:2-17 NKJV)
1 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.

Unconstitutional. Freedom of religion, first amendment.

2 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.

Unconstitutional. Freedom of religion, first amendment.

3 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

Unconstitutional, freedom of speech.

4 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Unconstitutionl. Whose Sabbath, and who decides how many days of work?

5 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

How do you enforce this, and what is the meaning of it?

6 “You shall not murder.

Law common to all societies.

7 “You shall not commit adultery.

Again, a law common to all societies, and broken regularly in all societies.

8 “You shall not steal.

A law common to all societies.

9 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Law common to all societies

10 “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.”

Unenforceable, and contravenes the Conservative Mantra of 'Greed is Good'.

Well, most of the Christian Ten Commandments are either unconstitutional or unenforcable.

 

[Varth Dader]

...Indeed. And criminal prosecution can be a forum for those who try to use sharia in a super-legal fashion...

Explain to me why the following can't happen:

Your two neighbors are Muslims. They have a dispute over the interest rate that one is charging the other. One is alleging that it's OK according to Sharia law. The other is saying it is usury. They ask you to settle their dispute according to Sharia law.

Are you telling me you are committing a crime if you do?

Explain to my why the following should happen: I'm a non-muslim. I have a dispute with my credit card company over an interest rate. They say "fuck you, see you in court."
Two neighbors are muslims. They have a dispute over an interest rate. One neighbor thinks he is above our law, and tries to pull the sharia card, knowing full-well that the agreements that he got involved in were within our legal framework, yet he thinks he is entitled to be above our laws because he is a muslim.

Explain to me what, if anything, is fair about this scenario.

Your example has nothing to do with the OP.

It has nothing to do with playing the "Sharia card"

Question for you: when doctors claim it is immoral, due to their religious convictions, to perform an abortion, or when pharmacists claim it is immoral, due to their religious convictions, to give specific medications, are they also playing a "Sharia-style" card?

 

[ScreamingEagle]

An Oklahoma constitutional amendment aimed at stopping the use of Islamic law in its courts



Now no law can discriminate against any religion in the US.

Want a law that says a judge can not use the laws of christianity in a court?

What "Christian laws" are you referring to....? ...Thou shalt not kill....??

sO you'd rather allow Islamic law that says... thou SHALL kill.....?

The Ten Commandments Bible list — What are the Ten Commandments?
The Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:2-17 NKJV)
1 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.

Unconstitutional. Freedom of religion, first amendment.

2 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.

Unconstitutional. Freedom of religion, first amendment.

3 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

Unconstitutional, freedom of speech.

4 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Unconstitutionl. Whose Sabbath, and who decides how many days of work?

5 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

How do you enforce this, and what is the meaning of it?

6 “You shall not murder.

Law common to all societies.

7 “You shall not commit adultery.

Again, a law common to all societies, and broken regularly in all societies.

8 “You shall not steal.

A law common to all societies.

9 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Law common to all societies

10 “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.”

Unenforceable, and contravenes the Conservative Mantra of 'Greed is Good'.

Well, most of the Christian Ten Commandments are either unconstitutional or unenforcable.

Thanks for enumerating the list...thereby proving we really have no specific "Christian" laws on the books....

...like i asked truthmatters before.....should we allow muslims to murder just because their religion condones it....?
...or rape their women...? ....or beat their women....? ...etc.....truthmatters seems to think we must allow those things or else we are discriminating against the religion of Islam...

 

[Sunni Man]

...like i asked truthmatters before.....should we allow muslims to murder just because their religion condones it....?
...or rape their women...? ....or beat their women....?

Incorrect.

Islam does Not condone murder, rape, or the beating of women.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Explain to me why the following can't happen:

Your two neighbors are Muslims. They have a dispute over the interest rate that one is charging the other. One is alleging that it's OK according to Sharia law. The other is saying it is usury. They ask you to settle their dispute according to Sharia law.

Are you telling me you are committing a crime if you do?

Explain to my why the following should happen: I'm a non-muslim. I have a dispute with my credit card company over an interest rate. They say "fuck you, see you in court."
Two neighbors are muslims. They have a dispute over an interest rate. One neighbor thinks he is above our law, and tries to pull the sharia card, knowing full-well that the agreements that he got involved in were within our legal framework, yet he thinks he is entitled to be above our laws because he is a muslim.

Explain to me what, if anything, is fair about this scenario.

Your example has nothing to do with the OP.

It has nothing to do with playing the "Sharia card"

Question for you: when doctors claim it is immoral, due to their religious convictions, to perform an abortion, or when pharmacists claim it is immoral, due to their religious convictions, to give specific medications, are they also playing a "Sharia-style" card?

You cannot force someone to sell something in the free market against his will.....go buy your abortion or condoms from someone else willing to sell it....

For example....you sell ice cream....but you don't sell tutti frutti ice cream because you hate it......however someone comes in and says he wants tutti frutti.....does that mean you MUST provide it...?

 

[Varth Dader]

You cannot force someone to sell something in the free market against his will.....go buy your abortion or condoms from someone else willing to sell it....

For example....you sell ice cream....but you don't sell tutti frutti ice cream because you hate it......however someone comes in and says he wants tutti frutti.....does that mean you MUST provide it...?

Can you force hotel owners to rent hotel rooms to African Americans against their wills?

 

[logical4u]

Explain to my why the following should happen: I'm a non-muslim. I have a dispute with my credit card company over an interest rate. They say "fuck you, see you in court."
Two neighbors are muslims. They have a dispute over an interest rate. One neighbor thinks he is above our law, and tries to pull the sharia card, knowing full-well that the agreements that he got involved in were within our legal framework, yet he thinks he is entitled to be above our laws because he is a muslim.

Explain to me what, if anything, is fair about this scenario.

Your example has nothing to do with the OP.

It has nothing to do with playing the "Sharia card"

Question for you: when doctors claim it is immoral, due to their religious convictions, to perform an abortion, or when pharmacists claim it is immoral, due to their religious convictions, to give specific medications, are they also playing a "Sharia-style" card?

You cannot force someone to sell something in the free market against his will.....go buy your abortion or condoms from someone else willing to sell it....

For example....you sell ice cream....but you don't sell tutti frutti ice cream because you hate it......however someone comes in and says he wants tutti frutti.....does that mean you MUST provide it...?

I believe that was what Oklahoma was trying to ensure: a "free" market. Sharia offers no freedom.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

...like i asked truthmatters before.....should we allow muslims to murder just because their religion condones it....?
...or rape their women...? ....or beat their women....?

Incorrect.

Islam does Not condone murder, rape, or the beating of women.

says you...

 

[ScreamingEagle]

You cannot force someone to sell something in the free market against his will.....go buy your abortion or condoms from someone else willing to sell it....

For example....you sell ice cream....but you don't sell tutti frutti ice cream because you hate it......however someone comes in and says he wants tutti frutti.....does that mean you MUST provide it...?

Can you force hotel owners to rent hotel rooms to African Americans against their wills?

You don't understand the difference...

If a hotel owner is offering his rooms to the general public he cannot discriminate by race...because he is offering his product to all.....but it is HIS product (rooms) he is selling...

An African-American can't demand that the hotel owner provide a room decorated with African decor...just because he wants it...take what is offered for sale or don't buy...

 

[High_Gravity]

...like i asked truthmatters before.....should we allow muslims to murder just because their religion condones it....?
...or rape their women...? ....or beat their women....?

Incorrect.

Islam does Not condone murder, rape, or the beating of women.

1. Islam commands that drinkers and gamblers should be whipped. Sura 5:90-91.

2. Islam allows husbands to beat their wives. Qur’an, 4:34

3. Islam allows an injured plaintiff to exact legal revenge, physical eye for physical eye. Qur’an, 5:45

4. Islam commands that a male and female thief must have a hand cut off. Qur’an, 5:38

5. Islam commands that highway robbers should be crucified or mutilated. Qur’an, 5:33. As an alternative, the convicted may have a hand and the opposite foot cut off while being banished from the land instead of crucifixion.

6. Islam commands that Homosexuals be executed. Abdu Dawud no. 447. Burning to death, stoned while against a wall, or stoned and thrown over a cliff.

7. Islam orders unmarried fornicators to be whipped and adulterers to be stoned to death. Qur’an, 24-6

8. Islam orders death for Muslim and possible death for non—Muslim critics of Muhammad and the Quran and even sharia itself.

9. Islam orders apostates to be killed. Sura 9:11-12

10. Islam commands offensive and aggressive and unjust jihad

This doesn't appear to be the case when you get down to it Sunni.

Islam and Sharia Law are coming to America - Santa Ana Statehouse | Examiner.com

 

[Ropey]

...like i asked truthmatters before.....should we allow muslims to murder just because their religion condones it....?
...or rape their women...? ....or beat their women....?

Incorrect.

Islam does Not condone murder, rape, or the beating of women.

I tend to agree, however this is a multi-layered issue since this issue is a cultural interpretation, and which many Muslim countries interpret the rights of a husband as sacrosanct and a few are marginally more moderate than the more cultural extreme interpretations.

But how many Governments support this interpretation to the extreme Sunni Man?

Let's take Afghanistan under the Islamic 'control' of the Taliban. With their interpretation of Islam and Sharia, you can not say what you just said.

So, I put forwards that you attempt to hide the reality with a softer moderate posting, but which is against the reality we see in the Islamic world.

Since you demand the extraction and 'cure' of homosexuality, I put forward you have little concern for the lives of people if they do not fit into 'your' personal views. Again, if you wish, I can post the links of your words regarding Islam and the homosexuals within the Muslim world. Muslims are all over the world.

That's rather backward looking.