It wont alter the problem one iota while the arab muslims have a say in the matter. They will just carry on as they are, only against an ineffective unarmed UN police force that wont lift a finger. The Jews will be denied access, the Christians will be denied access and the UN will be denied access. Then the buildings will be turned into a fortress to fight the infidels from. So more killing, more violence and more terrorism because you hate the Jews so much.
Jerusalem Corpus Separatum
- Thread starter Humanity
- Start date
It wont alter the problem one iota while the arab muslims have a say in the matter. They will just carry on as they are, only against an ineffective unarmed UN police force that wont lift a finger. The Jews will be denied access, the Christians will be denied access and the UN will be denied access. Then the buildings will be turned into a fortress to fight the infidels from. So more killing, more violence and more terrorism because you hate the Jews so much.
You think it's JUST the Palestinians?
Yeah of course you do...
The Israeli's would be happy to hand over Jerusalem eh!
Only a blind man or a complete islamomoron would fail to see that the problem is purely Palestinian. They are the ones that start the riots and civil unrest, throw explosives, rocks and petrol bombs at the Jews and Christians. Mass in numbers on the mount and stockpile bits of the mosque to use as weapons.
What do the Jews and Christians do apart from go when they are allowed to take part in a religious ceremony quietly so they don't waken the Palestinians anger and psychotic violence
The International City of Peace™
Obviously you need to be reminded that Islamism has attempted to claim Jerusalem as a zip code of muhammedan'istan. Peaceful Inner Strugglers™ Don't have a history of demonstrating attributes such as "sharing", "cooperation" or "clawing their way out of the 7th century".
It's inevitable that the more excitable of the Peaceful Inner Strugglers™ would do what Peaceful Inner Strugglers™ do, and that is destroy the historical / archeological artifacts that offends their tender sensibilities. We see precisely that from the ISIS version of Muhammud (swish) worshippers across Iraq and Syria just as we saw the Taliban version of Muhammud (swish) worshippers do in Afghanistan.
I wouldn't waste your time Hollie, his hatred bigotry and racism blinds him to the simple truths involved.
Besides, there is no such thing as an Arab Muslim palestinian those would be Jordanians who were illegally stripped of their citizenship.
You could reasonably refer to them as Arab Muslims in Israel. Just itching to be thrown out and sent back to Arabia. Or maybe Jordanian, although the rest of the Jordanians certainly don't want them.
Long story short is Israel is united again under Israeli rule and its now time to deal with the terrorist enclaves. Round them up and throw the bums out. Of course letting the peaceful legitimate refugees stay as long as they behave.
Boom
Problem solved
Humanity
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It's so very clear, so very sad to see exactly why there will never be peace in the ME...
You zionuts are so bigoted, so 'Israel Firsters' that you are incapable of even discussing a topic that could potentially bring peace to the ME....
Go Israel...
You zionuts are so bigoted, so 'Israel Firsters' that you are incapable of even discussing a topic that could potentially bring peace to the ME....
Go Israel...
Shusha
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Phoenall is exactly right when it comes to the Temple Mount. The problems there are caused entirely by the Muslim Palestinians.
It is the Muslims who insist upon having exclusive use of the Holy Place. It is the Muslims who deny rights to those of other religious faiths. It is the Muslims who usurp the history and sites of other religions. It is the Muslims who steal the stories of the Jewish people and call them their own. It is the Muslims who hire women to taunt and mock and harass the Jewish people on the Temple Mount. It is the Muslims who stockpile rocks and molotovs and metal bars and other weapons inside their own supposedly Holy Place to use to violently attack the Jewish people.
While the Jewish people, in the interest of peace, have sacrificed our own rights to the place -- to visit freely, to worship, to hold religious ceremonies (foolishly, imo). The Jewish people, in the interest of peace, have sacrificed our own ability to preserve our cultural heritage at the site (foolishly, imo). The Jewish people provide security and try to keep peace there and prevent people from being murdered.
And the international community supports all this.
No. What SHOULD happen is that the Temple Mount should be under exclusive Jewish control. EVERYONE should be allowed to visit and worship freely. It should be a place where people of all three faiths come together in peace under G-d's Presence. And anyone who threatens that peace by so much as an unkind word should be removed immediately and banned permanently.
Only the Jewish people will be able to accomplish this. And the reason the Jewish people are the only ones able to accomplish this is that only the Jewish people have the foundational religious ideology which supports this rather than combats it.
That part is wrong on so many levels. All religions have borrowed stories from preceeding religions and made them their own. Islam has. So has Christianity. And so, I suspect has Judiasm from earlier ones. And they all insist it's their own. Christianity and Islam have both usurped the sites of other religions but somehow only Islam gets blamed. It's the way religions evolve - whether it's the Judaism/Christianity/Islam grouping or the Roman's when they took on Greece's pantheon and renamed it.
This I agree with.
Shusha
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I could not possibly disagree more. There is a significant difference between the evolution of a religious faith, the departure from a religious faith and the usurping of a religious faith.
The evolution of a faith is something which happens within the the faith. It is a transformation of the faith and is accepted by most members of the faith. Evolution develops a new understanding of the existing faith, or introduces new ideas, and like a ripple in a pond, takes the adherents with it. It is a gradual change and normally comes from within the faith itself. Temple Judaism giving way (of tragic necessity) to Rabbinic Judaism.
Departure faiths develop new ideas and new understandings of an existing faith to such an extent that they fundamentally challenge the foundations of the older faith and create a schism wherein adherents must choose between the new faith and the old faith. The two faiths become incompatible. There is a strong feeling of superiority in the "new" faith -- the rejection of the old one, the need to "correct" or "convert" those from the old faith. It suggests, or demands, a new and "better" understanding of old stories. Christianity from Judaism. Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses from Christianity. Shia and Sunni.
Usurping faiths take another faith's stories, holy places, characters and adopts them as their own. They condemn the original faith as being non-existent or, worse, corrupt. There is an outright negation of the originating faith. It seeks to erase the existence of the originating faith (not just "improve" upon it as a departure faith does). Islam stealing Judaism.
Yes, I absolutely give Islam special credit for this. To my knowledge they are the only usurping religion yet developed.
I totally disagree. Name one faith that developed in a vacuum and did not subsume elements of prior faiths. I can't think of any. That's not "usurping" - or, if you insist, it applies to all religions in the modern world. People move - the migrate, they conquer and the elements of the cultures they conquer are often incorporated into their on narratives.
In fact there are common themes that run throughout religious narratives - birth, death, and resurrection for example. Where did that start and who's story was usurped?
The Abrahamic faiths are stories of religious evolution and departure faiths both.
Christianity departed from Judaism - they took the story of the coming of a Messiah and made it their own, with Jesus as the Messiah. They negated portions of the Jewish faith, and replaced it with new tenants. They kept kept the Old Testemant, and recognized the old prophets and stories, but incorporated it into their new faith. As Christianity spread, it incorporated certain pagan beliefs from the lands they conquered - foreign deities and heroes became Saints and Demons. They built their churches on pagan holy sites or simply took over those sites and made them Christian. This isn't unique - the Romans did the same thing prior.
Islam took Christianity and Judaism and essentially did the same thing. They kept the old prophets and stories, but placed Jesus as not the end result, the son of God, but another prophet, and added Mohammed as the "final prophet". They incorporated the tribal beliefs of their ancestors.
How is Islam any different than Christianity? How is it Islam is "usurping" but Christianity isn't?
Why is one uniquely usurping and the other not? It seems this is a special designation intended to demonize Islam.
It's interesting to see how each of the religions view each other...
Global Connections . Religion | PBS
Judaism's views of Christianity and Islam
Jews do not believe in the prophets after the Jewish prophets, including Jesus and Muhammad. Therefore, they do not subscribe to the idea that Jesus was the Messiah and the son of God, nor do they believe in the teachings of Islam.
Christianity's views of Judaism and Islam
Although Christianity developed out of Judaic texts, Christians do not follow Jewish law. Instead, they believe that the ritualistic Jewish law was abrogated in favor of a universal gospel for all of humanity and the Christian teaching, "Love thy neighbor as thyself."
Relationships between Jewish and Christian communities have often been difficult, particularly in Christian Europe. There, Jewish communities were often subject to discrimination and violence at the hands of Christians.
Christianity has also had a problematic relationship with Islam. Christians do not accept Muhammad as a prophet. While many Christians in the Middle East converted to Islam during and after the seventh century, the Church hierarchy in Rome and Constantinople considered Islam to be both a political and theological threat. The Crusades were an unsuccessful attempt to reverse the Islamic conquest of the eastern Mediterranean and the holy places of all three monotheistic religions.
Relationships between Jewish and Christian communities have often been difficult, particularly in Christian Europe. There, Jewish communities were often subject to discrimination and violence at the hands of Christians.
Christianity has also had a problematic relationship with Islam. Christians do not accept Muhammad as a prophet. While many Christians in the Middle East converted to Islam during and after the seventh century, the Church hierarchy in Rome and Constantinople considered Islam to be both a political and theological threat. The Crusades were an unsuccessful attempt to reverse the Islamic conquest of the eastern Mediterranean and the holy places of all three monotheistic religions.
Islam's views of Judaism and Christianity
Islam sees Judaism and Christianity as earlier versions of Islam, revelations given within the same tradition by Allah but misunderstood over time by their followers. Muslims see Islam as the final, complete, and correct revelation in the monotheistic tradition of the three faiths.
The Islamic tradition recognizes many of the Jewish and Christian prophets, including Abraham, Moses, and Jesus (although he is not considered to be the son of God). Many non-Muslims mistakenly believe that Muhammad is the equivalent of Jesus in the Islamic tradition; in fact, it is the Quran that stands in the same central position in Islam as Jesus does in Christianity. Muhammad himself is not divine, but a prophet chosen by God to deliver his message and an example of piety to emulate.
Jews and Christians are specifically protected in the Quran as Peoples of the Book, reinforcing their spiritual connection to Islam by virtue of having been given revelations from God. The Islamic legal tradition has upheld the rights of Jews and Christians to maintain their beliefs and practices within their communities in Islamic lands, and this policy of tolerance has generally been upheld.
The Islamic tradition recognizes many of the Jewish and Christian prophets, including Abraham, Moses, and Jesus (although he is not considered to be the son of God). Many non-Muslims mistakenly believe that Muhammad is the equivalent of Jesus in the Islamic tradition; in fact, it is the Quran that stands in the same central position in Islam as Jesus does in Christianity. Muhammad himself is not divine, but a prophet chosen by God to deliver his message and an example of piety to emulate.
Jews and Christians are specifically protected in the Quran as Peoples of the Book, reinforcing their spiritual connection to Islam by virtue of having been given revelations from God. The Islamic legal tradition has upheld the rights of Jews and Christians to maintain their beliefs and practices within their communities in Islamic lands, and this policy of tolerance has generally been upheld.
I do not see "usurping" unique to Islam - I see the evolution of religions.
Shusha
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This is one place to start. "Love thy neighbor as thyself" is a JEWISH teaching. It was adopted and emphasized in Christian teaching.
Shusha
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There is a difference between progressive revelation and usurping another faith. A progressive revelation acknowledges the source material as belonging to the originating faith. Usurping a faith denies the originating faith. See above. Judaism and Christianity are earlier versions of Islam. The receivers of the messages from G-d were Muslims and practiced Islam as Allah instructed them. Those who follow Judaism and Christianity today are not Muslims and do not practice Islam as their forefathers did -- but practice corrupt and misunderstood faiths which have no roots in the messages of G-d. The people of Judaism and Christianity do not follow a revelation from Allah. According to Islam, Judaism did not exist until the Diaspora, when it was invented. What existed prior to that was Islam. And its practitioners were Muslims.
The point may seem subtle and unimportant, but it is not, because it transfers, whole cloth, the entire foundations of Judaism from the Jewish people to Islam and completely denies any claim by the Jewish people to our own stories. It is literally appropriating another culture.
It means that the Temple Mount is an exclusive Muslim holy site, originating at the location where the Muslim Abraham bound his Muslim son Isaac. It means denying there was ever a Temple to G-d on the site -- or, if there was, that it was a Muslim Temple built by the Muslim Solomon. It means that the city of David is an exclusively Muslim city, built by the Muslim King David. It means the shrines of the Cave of the Patriarchs and the Tomb of Rachel are Muslim shrines built to honor Muslim men and women. It means that the land is Muslim land and has always been Muslim land from time immemorial. It means it was gifted, not to the Jewish people, but to the Muslim Children of Israel (the Palestinians).
It completely denies Jewish claim and connection to anything. It is along the lines of Monte and Challenger claiming that the Jewish people originated in Europe and have no ties or rights to any historical claim on anything. It denies the Jewish people our history, our origins, our culture, our narratives, our stories.
Look at the UNESCO decision. Which ignores and thus denies any Jewish connection to the Temple Mount! Look who wrote that resolution. And look who accepted it.
Look at the conversation we are having here! Jerusalem should not belong to its own First Nations people! The Temple Mount should not belong to its own First Nations people! It must be turned over to an international body to become an international city and an international holy place. What other peoples are being stripped of their historical legacy in this way? What other peoples are being denied their historical legacy?
Shusha
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Let's take a look at this article, published in at least six Arab newspapers:
Dozens of Israeli settlers on Thursday morning stormed the Bilal bin Rabah mosque north of the city of Bethlehem, claiming it is the site of "Rachel's Tomb", and they performed Talmudic rituals inside.
Local sources said that the settlers broke into the area near the Aida refugee camp, and performed provocative religious rituals inside, and that the settlers arrived by bus and were accompanied by patrols of the Israeli occupation.
They were there for several hours during which voices were heard screaming inside the mosque, while performing Talmudic rituals.
Sources reported that the mosque is located inside the wall of apartheid.
The settlers, under the pretext of performing Talmudic rituals, repeatedly desecrate the mosque.
So Jewish people, visiting and worshiping in a Jewish holy place are accused of desecrating a mosque with "Talmudic rituals".
How is this RIGHT?
Dozens of Israeli settlers on Thursday morning stormed the Bilal bin Rabah mosque north of the city of Bethlehem, claiming it is the site of "Rachel's Tomb", and they performed Talmudic rituals inside.
Local sources said that the settlers broke into the area near the Aida refugee camp, and performed provocative religious rituals inside, and that the settlers arrived by bus and were accompanied by patrols of the Israeli occupation.
They were there for several hours during which voices were heard screaming inside the mosque, while performing Talmudic rituals.
Sources reported that the mosque is located inside the wall of apartheid.
The settlers, under the pretext of performing Talmudic rituals, repeatedly desecrate the mosque.
So Jewish people, visiting and worshiping in a Jewish holy place are accused of desecrating a mosque with "Talmudic rituals".
How is this RIGHT?
Shusha
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Here are some examples pulled from Palestinian textbooks:
“…The attempt to Judaize some of the Muslim religious places like the Mosque of Abraham [the Machpelah Sanctuary – Cave of the Patriarch] and the Mosque of Bilal bin Rabbah [Rachel's Tomb].” National Education, Grade 7 (2001) p. 55
“The Arab homeland contains important religious sites to which Muslim and Christian pilgrims come from different parts of the world… as the case is with Palestine where Muslim and Christian holy places are found in Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Hebron, Nazareth and other Palestinian cities.” Physical and Human Geography, Grade 12 (2006) p. 143
See? An evolving faith would represent these places as being Jewish. A departure faith would at least recognize and acknowledge the origins. But a usurping faith entirely ignores and rejects the originating culture or sees the originating faith as being an invader.
“…The attempt to Judaize some of the Muslim religious places like the Mosque of Abraham [the Machpelah Sanctuary – Cave of the Patriarch] and the Mosque of Bilal bin Rabbah [Rachel's Tomb].” National Education, Grade 7 (2001) p. 55
“The Arab homeland contains important religious sites to which Muslim and Christian pilgrims come from different parts of the world… as the case is with Palestine where Muslim and Christian holy places are found in Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Hebron, Nazareth and other Palestinian cities.” Physical and Human Geography, Grade 12 (2006) p. 143
See? An evolving faith would represent these places as being Jewish. A departure faith would at least recognize and acknowledge the origins. But a usurping faith entirely ignores and rejects the originating culture or sees the originating faith as being an invader.
aris2chat
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Two years ago.....
>>There is no record of Rachel's Tomb being called the Bilal bin Rabah mosque before the 1990s. It is complete fiction. Muslims freely acknowledged that this was Rachel's Tomb, and called it Khirbet Rahil and other names with the word "Rachel" in Arabic.
The simultaneous publication of this news item - when Jews have been visiting Rachel's Tomb virtually every day for centuries except between 1948-1967 - indicates that Arab Muslims are preparing to expand their campaign of lies and slander against Jews and Judaism.
And yet, you will be hard pressed to find any "human rights" organization, or mainstream media fact checker, bothering to point out the obvious lies and antisemitism. Because Muslims are expected to lie, to make up history, to get their fiction to be labeled simply "their narrative" as if the truth and lies are interchangeable, and to usurp Jewish holy places.
Since Muslims are expected to act in reprehensible ways, why should anyone outside Jewish "fanatics" be bothered when they live up to expectations? In the twisted world we live in, only Jews are expected to act like human beings and to care about small matters like being honest with history.<<
Because the islamo-fascist neighbor has a charter that calls for the destruction of Israel? Could that be why?
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