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Issues on which I disagree with the right

dblack

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jc456

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dblack

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your use of consensus. stop pivoting and explain your use.
I explained it. We need to stop slamming through legislation with a slim partisan majority. I don't the patience to dumb it down any more than that.
 
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Seymour Flops

Seymour Flops

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I am very far left and agree completely.ved
The only concern I have is that is government does not record marriages, then who has responsibility for the children if the marriage splits up?
Yes, that is a concern. But how many kids are born to unwed parents as it is, and the courts figure out how to deal with it.

What I have in mind is allowing every adult to declare whoever they choose as their next of kin (so long as the other person or persons agree), and let individuals decide who they are "married" to. If one person dies, their kids go to their declared next of kin. NOK by default inherits wealth if a person dies without a will, etc.

Not a perfect system, but perfection is not what I measure liberianism against. We have not achieved perfection through authoritarianism either.
 

Rigby5

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How does that work in China and Russia?
Not sure I would be willing to leap into that type of election.
It seems the rest of the world for the most part are electing
dictators, authoritarians, totalitarians.

Don't know what you mean because China and Russia have nothing like that.
China and Russia give the party total and complete control over who is on the ballot.
Which is the exact opposite of what I suggested, where parties get taken out of the process completely.

And no, Europe has much BETTER elections than the US has.
 

Rigby5

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Fully disagree with your take on this. Populism is dangerous and it very likely will take away representation
of less populated states. When do you think that a party other than the democrats will win Ca. again?
Our FF's were smart enough to protect 'We the People' from an overbearing government.

You are talking about using a popular vote instead of electoral college.
That is not the "populism" I was referring to.
Populism is just when a candidate focuses on the majority, who tend to be poor and feel disenfranchised.
That is dangerous because you can get a welfare state that way, or you can get some bad policies because the poor majority also is not the smartest.
 

Natural Citizen

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Meh. There's a couple of insightful postings here but otherwise one big thread fail.
 

Natural Citizen

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Natural Citizen

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Like anything. It's the Swiss army knife of political ideologies for the message board poster who hates playing defense.

Okay. Well just pick one thing.
 

occupied

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Okay. Well just pick one thing.
You'll never get a candidate on the ballot so you never have to defend their actions. Libertarian ideas will never be tried so you will never have to defend the consequences. You get to act like you've found the path to utopia and everyone else are just blind fools. It exalts the individual to an almost divine level to match how the narcissist Internet Libertarian sees himself. To most it's more a discussion board dodge than anything else. At best it's a none of the above choice at the ballot box.
 

Rigby5

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Okay. Well just pick one thing.

I think his point is that Libertarianism is sort of Nihilistic.
Libertarians against just about all government programs, authority, etc.
So a Libertarian does not have to propose and defend anything.
All they have to do is find fault with any government proposal.
I myself find Libertarianism to be appealing if we still lived in a frontier type society.
Where there was plenty of natural resource and no corporate economic domination.
But now that we are without natural alternatives, and we are stuck in a crowded urban setting controlled by large economic forces, we need defense from them.
There can be no political freedom if we are economic slaves.
 

Rigby5

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You'll never get a candidate on the ballot so you never have to defend their actions. Libertarian ideas will never be tried so you will never have to defend the consequences. You get to act like you've found the path to utopia and everyone else are just blind fools. It exalts the individual to an almost divine level to match how the narcissist Internet Libertarian sees himself. To most it's more a discussion board dodge than anything else. At best it's a none of the above choice at the ballot box.

I see we were writing about the same thing at about the same time, but you posted first.
 

Natural Citizen

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You'll never get a candidate on the ballot so you never have to defend their actions. Libertarian ideas will never be tried so you will never have to defend the consequences. You get to act like you've found the path to utopia and everyone else are just blind fools. It exalts the individual to an almost divine level to match how the narcissist Internet Libertarian sees himself. To most it's more a discussion board dodge than anything else.
Oh, I see what you're saying.

Yeah, they don't want anyone on a ballot who isn't technically just a different side of the same coin. I agree with you about that. Democracy has been weaponized for decades in that regard. Trump himself was, in my view, largely just a semi-clever establishment response to a growing number of Independents. I believe it reached over 50% unaffilliated during the 2014 MT. So there's simply no way the establishment didn't notice that. And there was no way they weren't going to do something about it. He served as an illuson of difference. Again, this my own view.

Anyway. I was just curious. Though you still weren't specific to a given issue. But it's okay. I didn't realy feel like debating anything anyway. I'm just popping in and out anyway, not hanging around. I was just curious about any given issue you may have had in mind when you mentioned that a libertarian couldn't defend their position.

Not that I'm what one might refer to as a libertarian. I'm not. I'm a rather staunch liberal myself. But liberal in the true sense of the philosophy. Of course I'm also a firm believer that working toward changing the course of history at the grassroots level is far more valuable and much more fruitful than just trying to hurry up and get elected. To that extent, dodging any critical dialogue with regard to the issues and policy would be the very last thing I'd be interested in doing. Not yesterday. Not today. Not tomorrow. Not any day. The more dialogue, the better.
 
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Natural Citizen

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I will add, however, that the best people in Washington really are the libertarians who had to hold their noses and run as a Republican. It's simply irrefutable. The Thomas Massie/Rand Paul types, I mean. Their voting records and penned legislation speaks for itself whereas most establishment politicians are simply carrying a D or an R like it's a football helmet logo and don't really serve the electorate's interests in any meaningful way. Most tyranny is bipartisan. It's why they love the so-called 'moderate' vote so much. Career politicans undertand that this demograph is who butters their bread. And so we end up with all of the bad, anti-liberty legislation coming from both sides of the party of one.

To that extent, it really just solidifies the notion that if elections at that level really made a nickel's worth of difference, they'd be illegal.
 
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Blues Man

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opposed to what?
Do you really think we are unable to vote for anyone but republicans and democrats?

It's time we took the power back from corrupt political parties. But we won't.
 

jc456

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Do you really think we are unable to vote for anyone but republicans and democrats?

It's time we took the power back from corrupt political parties. But we won't.
did I suggest that one couldn't? I voted for Trump, he was an independent. He realized without getting under the GOP tag, he would be swept away. So he challenged the GOP candidates as an independent but under GOP tag so as not to lose out as a third box on the ballot. Genius I say. Why aren't any of the folks you wish to vote for creative enough to remove the competition like Trump? Voting for a third line candidate on a ballot for a general election will always lose. Trump knew this from Ross Perot's fail attempt as a third party. BTW, third party candidate who won? Teddy Roosevelt.

In the 1912 U.S. Presidential elections, former President Teddy Roosevelt emerged as the most successful third party presidential candidate in the history of the country when he bagged 88 Electoral votes and 27% of the popular vote in the election on behalf of the Progressive Party of the United States.
 

Ray From Cleveland

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Do you really think we are unable to vote for anyone but republicans and democrats?

It's time we took the power back from corrupt political parties. But we won't.

100% correct, we won't. That's why you vote for the people closest to your views instead of waiting the rest of your life for one that addresses every concern of yours.
 

dblack

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100% correct, we won't. That's why you vote for the people closest to your views instead of waiting the rest of your life for one that addresses every concern of yours.

Just curious how far you'd take that logic. Would you fret over the differences between Stalin and Hitler, for example? Or would you say "no thanks" to both?
 

Ray From Cleveland

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Just curious how far you'd take that logic. Would you fret over the differences between Stalin and Hitler, for example? Or would you say "no thanks" to both?

What's with the apples and oranges comparison? Care to try something else?

We are not choosing between Stalin and Hitler, we are choosing between more government control and less government control. We are choosing between picking a party that supports criminals and a party that supports law abiding citizens. We are picking between a party that favors invaders over Americans, and a party that favors Americans over invaders. We are picking between a party that strives to create as many government dependents as possible and a party that's wants to reduce that dependency. We are deciding between a party that hates the Constitution and a party that loves it.

Bottom line, we are choosing between good and evil whereas your comparison is evil against evil.
 

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