Israel's Legal Right To Exist

[Phoenall]

When you're befuddled about historical events, rattling on with absurdities makes you a buffoon.

The only buffoon is the one that can't accept a simple fact. The Jews were in Europe and invaded Palestine against the wishes of the native people of Palestine.

"Native people of Palestine." You mean the Jews invaded themselves???

The European Jews came from Europe. How could they invade themselves by invading Palestine?

How do ya like that? And here I actually believed the Jews were "native Palestinians" long before there were any Christian, let alone Muslim Palestinians. Amazing what we can learn from Monte.

How could people in Europe be Palestinians? Amazing what can be discerned about MJ's ability to process logic. LOL

How could Romans be Americans or Peruvians ?

By the use of internationasl laws that made them palestinians of course you idiot. The same international laws that made Egyptians, Syrians, Iraqi's, Iranians and Jordanians palestinins when their attempts at invasion failed and they were deserting the armies faster than lightning

 

[Phoenall]

Projecting doesn't make you appear any less moronic. The Egyptians are from Egypt, the Syrians are from Syria and the Lebanese are from Lebanon. The Palestinians are from Palestine and the Jews came from Europe invaded Palestine and are now squatting on Christian and Muslim land. Those are the facts.

AND WHEN THEY DESERTED THEIR ARMIES AND STAYED IN PALESTINE THEY BECAME PALESTINIANS . THE OLD TWO YEAR RULE

 

[Phoenall]

ARTICLE I6.

Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognised by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned.

You post this all the time. Neither the LoN nor the Mandate claimed any sovereignty. The LoN did say who would be the benefactors of their tutelage. They used terms like the people, the inhabitants, the natives, and the indigenous. There was no mention of foreigners.

So who were these people? The treaty of Lausanne spelled that out.

SECTION II .
NATIONALITY.
ARTICLE 30.

Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipsofacto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred.​

They were talking about the people who actually lived there being citizens of their respective states. No foreigners were mentioned. The Palestinians have the right to sovereignty on their land as affirmed by subsequent UN resolutions.

And you have been shown that this does not apply as it does not say what you claim. And as you deny that the Jews had those rights then so you must deny the arab muslims.

 

[Phoenall]

montelatici,

Nonsense. This is a timeline failure.

No title or rights were granted to the Allied Powers. Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations clearly states that the the Mandatories were responsible for the well-being and development of the inhabitants of the colonies and territories, title did not transfer to the Allies. You continue to make things up Rocco, stop it.

"ARTICLE 22.

To those colonies and territories which as a consequence of the late war have ceased to be under the sovereignty of the States which formerly governed them and which are inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, there should be applied the principle that the well-being and development of such peoples form a sacred trust of civilisation and that securities for the performance of this trust should be embodied in this Covenant."

(COMMENT)

The Covenant was signed in 1919 and went into force on 10 January 1920. The Treaty of Lausanne was a 1924 product.

ARTICLE I6.

Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognised by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned.

The provisions of the present Article do not prejudice any special arrangements arising from neighbourly relations which have been or may be concluded between Turkey and any limitrophe countries.
​

Again, in a direct attempt to discredit the information, they actually use the technique to misdirection. Pointing to the Covenant. and it is true, Article 22 of the Covenant does not speak to title and rights. It makes no reference to Palestine at all. HOWEVER, the Treaty of Lausanne (TREATY OF PEACE WITH TURKEY SIGNED AT LAUSANNE) included Article 16 in which the Title and Rights were past to the Allied Powers (not the Arab Palestinians).

You will note that the Article 22 did give objectives to be accomplished that the Arab Palestinians need to participate; "tutelage" and "stand-alone" criteria. The Arab Palestinians rejected all opportunities to become involved in the process.

Most Respectfully,
R

No rights or titles were transferred to the allies. The rights and titles were surrendered by Turkey and transferred provisionally (pursuant to Article 22 para. 5) or held in trust by the League of Nations pursuant to Article 22 paras. 1 and 2, for the inhabitants.

The British blocked every attempt by the Christians and Muslims from participating in any tutelage. In fact, the British were unwilling to negotiate with the Christians and Muslims at all and would only negotiate with the Zionist Organization.

To wit:

"while your Delegation is recognised by Mr. Churchill as representing a large section of the Moslem and Christian inhabitants of Palestine, and while the Secretary of State is anxious to discuss his present proposals informally with recognised representatives, such as yourselves, of any important section of the community, he is not in a position to negotiate officially with you or with any other body which claims to represent the whole or, part of the people of Palestine..."

and flatly rejected any possibility of the establishment of any self-government by the Christians and Muslims.

"...it is quite clear that the creation at this stage of a national Government would preclude the fulfilment of the pledge made by the British Government to the Jewish people...."

So stop making things up, Rocco.

UK correspondence with Palestine Arab Delegation and Zionist Organization/British policy in Palestine: "Churchill White Paper" - UK documentation Cmd. 1700/Non-UN document (excerpts) (1 July 1922)

Not a legal document as it is only dialogue between the arab muslims and Britain. It did not make any laws and did not address the LoN directly

 

[Phoenall]

There were no squatters or invaders except for those from Europe. Stop making things up.

He is not he is detailing the facts as presented many times. even Churchill who you bring up all the time stated that the arab muslims were illegally migrating to palestine

 

[Shusha]

Projecting doesn't make you appear any less moronic. The Egyptians are from Egypt, the Syrians are from Syria and the Lebanese are from Lebanon. The Palestinians are from Palestine and the Jews came from Europe invaded Palestine and are now squatting on Christian and Muslim land. Those are the facts.

The problem with your hypocritical point of view, monte, is a Lebanese who moves to Palestine magically becomes a Palestinian whose "ancestors have been living there for thousands of years" while a Jew whose ancestors actually have been there for thousands of years somehow transforms into a European invader.

Not more than a month or so, your partner in crime posted a story about a poor "Palestinian" family who turned out to be Lebanese.

The real facts are that there has been a great deal of immigration into the geographical area known as Palestine in the past two hundred years or so. Before that, there was an Arab Muslim conquest. And before that were the indigenous Jewish people.

 

[Shusha]

The Palestinians have the right to sovereignty on their land as affirmed by subsequent UN resolutions.

Yep. The Jewish Palestinians and the Arab Christian and Muslim Palestinians BOTH have the right to sovereignty over a portion of the land.

Can we get on with negotiating the borders now?

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Palestinians have the right to sovereignty on their land as affirmed by subsequent UN resolutions.

Yep. The Jewish Palestinians and the Arab Christian and Muslim Palestinians BOTH have the right to sovereignty over a portion of the land.

Can we get on with negotiating the borders now?

Link?

 

[montelatici]

Projecting doesn't make you appear any less moronic. The Egyptians are from Egypt, the Syrians are from Syria and the Lebanese are from Lebanon. The Palestinians are from Palestine and the Jews came from Europe invaded Palestine and are now squatting on Christian and Muslim land. Those are the facts.

The problem with your hypocritical point of view, monte, is a Lebanese who moves to Palestine magically becomes a Palestinian whose "ancestors have been living there for thousands of years" while a Jew whose ancestors actually have been there for thousands of years somehow transforms into a European invader.

Not more than a month or so, your partner in crime posted a story about a poor "Palestinian" family who turned out to be Lebanese.

The real facts are that there has been a great deal of immigration into the geographical area known as Palestine in the past two hundred years or so. Before that, there was an Arab Muslim conquest. And before that were the indigenous Jewish people.

The descendants of indigenous people, that practiced Judaism, Samaritanism, Roman, Caanite religions etc., are still in Palestine, they happen to follow the Christian and Muslim faiths today. The European Jews were from Europe and were Europeans.

Surprise: Ashkenazi Jews Are Genetically European
Surprise: Ashkenazi Jews Are Genetically European

Immigration to Palestine over the past 200 years has been overwhelmingly Jewish.


"59. The conclusion is that Arab illegal immigration for the purposes of permanent settlement is insignificant."

A Survey of Palestine Vol 1, page 212, para. 59

A Survey of Palestine Volume 1 | Berman Jewish Policy Archive @ Stanford University

Conversely:

" It follows that the Jewish population may now include between 50,000 and 60,000 illegal immigrants who have settled in Palestine at any time since 1920 when the first Immigration Ordinance was enacted. "

A Survey of Palestine Vol 1, page 210, para. 54

A Survey of Palestine Volume 1 | Berman Jewish Policy Archive @ Stanford University

 

[Hollie]

Projecting doesn't make you appear any less moronic. The Egyptians are from Egypt, the Syrians are from Syria and the Lebanese are from Lebanon. The Palestinians are from Palestine and the Jews came from Europe invaded Palestine and are now squatting on Christian and Muslim land. Those are the facts.

The problem with your hypocritical point of view, monte, is a Lebanese who moves to Palestine magically becomes a Palestinian whose "ancestors have been living there for thousands of years" while a Jew whose ancestors actually have been there for thousands of years somehow transforms into a European invader.

Not more than a month or so, your partner in crime posted a story about a poor "Palestinian" family who turned out to be Lebanese.

The real facts are that there has been a great deal of immigration into the geographical area known as Palestine in the past two hundred years or so. Before that, there was an Arab Muslim conquest. And before that were the indigenous Jewish people.

The descendants of indigenous people, that practiced Judaism, Samaritanism, Roman, Caanite religions etc., are still in Palestine, they happen to follow the Christian and Muslim faiths today. The European Jews were from Europe and were Europeans.

Surprise: Ashkenazi Jews Are Genetically European
Surprise: Ashkenazi Jews Are Genetically European

Immigration to Palestine over the past 200 years has been overwhelmingly Jewish.


"59. The conclusion is that Arab illegal immigration for the purposes of permanent settlement is insignificant."

A Survey of Palestine Vol 1, page 212, para. 59

A Survey of Palestine Volume 1 | Berman Jewish Policy Archive @ Stanford University

Conversely:

" It follows that the Jewish population may now include between 50,000 and 60,000 illegal immigrants who have settled in Palestine at any time since 1920 when the first Immigration Ordinance was enacted. "

A Survey of Palestine Vol 1, page 210, para. 54

A Survey of Palestine Volume 1 | Berman Jewish Policy Archive @ Stanford University

On the other hand:

The Arabs in Palestine | Jewish Virtual Library

A Population Boom
As Hussein foresaw, the regeneration of Palestine, and the growth of its population, came only after Jews returned in massive numbers. The Jewish population increased by 470,000 between World War I and World War II while the non-Jewish population rose by 588,000. In fact, the permanent Arab population increased 120 percent between 1922 and 1947.

This rapid growth was a result of several factors. One was immigration from neighboring states — constituting 37 percent of the total immigration to pre-state Israel — by Arabs who wanted to take advantage of the higher standard of living the Jews had made possible. The Arab population also grew because of the improved living conditions created by the Jews as they drained malarial swamps and brought improved sanitation and health care to the region. Thus, for example, the Muslim infant mortality rate fell from 201 per thousand in 1925 to 94 per thousand in 1945 and life expectancy rose from 37 years in 1926 to 49 in 1943.

The Arab population increased the most in cities with large Jewish populations that had created new economic opportunities. From 19221947, the non-Jewish population increased 290 percent in Haifa, 131 percent in Jerusalem and 158 percent in Jaffa. The growth in Arab towns was more modest: 42 percent in Nablus, 78 percent in Jenin and 37 percent in Bethlehem.

 

[Bleipriester]

Bleipriester, et al,

Yeah, this is one-hell-of-a subject. It really kicks in on skills in formal presentations. And this particular question (The Case of the Golan Heights) is a compound and complex question; if nothing else.

In the Original Posting - "Israel's Legal Right To Exist" - the status of the Golan Heights is irrelevant. The Golan Heights Issue that starts from a 1981 timeframe. The question of existance starts from a 1948 timeframe. IF Israel has no "Right" to exist, THEN it has not "Right" to hold any territory. The question, in terms of "Rights" relative to the Golan Heights is moot.

"Rights" + "Title" + "Sovereignty" are all independent concepts in relation to "Reality" (Ground Truth).

The UN now demands that the occupied Golan returns to Syria.

(REFERENCES)

Israel seized 1,200 square kilometers (460 square miles) of the Golan during the Six-Day War of 1967, then annexed it in 1981 in a move never recognized by the international community.

A first group of 127 UN Disengagement Observer Force (UNDOF) peacekeepers returned Monday to a camp on the Syrian-held side of the Golan Heights, two years after withdrawing amid clashes with Al-Qaeda-linked Syrian rebels.
United Nations (United States) (AFP)

The UN demanded that Israel comply with the international legitimacy's resolutions on the occupied Syrian Golan, particularly the Security Council resolution no. 497 of 1981 that declared Israel's decision to impose its laws and jurisdiction on the Golan as "null and void and without international legal effect".
Sign of the Times (SOTT) Wed, 18 Nov 2015
UN demands Israel annul illegal annexation of Syria's Golan Heights

UNSC Resolution 242 (1967) Middle East Conflict (22 Nov)
UNSC Resolution 338 (1973) Israel-Syrian Arab Republic (22 Oct)
UNSC Resolution 485 (1981) Israel-Syrian Arab Republic (22 May)
UNSC Resolution 493 (1981) Israel-Syrian Arab Republic (23 Nov)
UNSC Resolution 497 (1981) Israel-Syrian Arab Republic (17 Dec)

General Assembly A/70/480 (1 DEC 2015) Permanent sovereignty of the Palestinian people in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and of the Arab population in the occupied Syrian Golan over their natural resources

General Assembly severely criticizes the "Occupying Power" (Israel) and leave the issue of Arab Palestinian wrong doing, Jihadism, Deadly Fedayeen Action, Hostile Insurgency Operations, Radicalized Islamic Behaviors, and Asymmetric Violence completely unadressed as a causation for current outcomes.​

(DIRECT OBSERVATION)

View attachment 100557​

(COMMENT)

It is unlikely that anything the UN does will actually change the ground truth. In fact, it is more likely that any enforcement action will trigger open conflict --- which --- will (with greater probability) result (yet again) even greater losses and casualties for the Arab Palestinians to bear. This would even be more likely if the Arab Palestinians ignite violence in the City of Jerusalem or the Golan Heights.

The UNDOF, much like the UNEF in the Sinai, will not act as a barrier - but step aside at the first sign of trouble just like the UNEF did in 1967.

Currently, the only military forces (land, sea, or air) in the region (not currently engaging DAESH, another similar radical islamic movement) are pointed towards Israel. Other than Israel, there are no Allied Forces capable of influencing the battlefield in time to "prevent an armed conflict."

The regional Arab nations (in this DAESH turbulant region) have to exercise some discretion in the ignition of a conflict. Should the conflict start in the significant combat loss in Arab Forces, DAESH will not hesitate to take advantage of any weakness.

Most Respectfully,
R

The definitions of the "right to exist" vary in Israel´s case. For some, it is the right to do anything and the right to not to be criticized. Israel is without mistakes and its actions above human ability to judge, they say.

 

[P F Tinmore]

was it only the Jewish national home legally created under international law

Unsubstantiated Israeli talking point.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Only because the arab muslims make demands of pre conditions to stall any talks

Like what?

 

[P F Tinmore]

ARTICLE I6.

Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognised by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned.

You post this all the time. Neither the LoN nor the Mandate claimed any sovereignty. The LoN did say who would be the benefactors of their tutelage. They used terms like the people, the inhabitants, the natives, and the indigenous. There was no mention of foreigners.

So who were these people? The treaty of Lausanne spelled that out.

SECTION II .
NATIONALITY.
ARTICLE 30.

Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipsofacto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred.​

They were talking about the people who actually lived there being citizens of their respective states. No foreigners were mentioned. The Palestinians have the right to sovereignty on their land as affirmed by subsequent UN resolutions.

And you have been shown that this does not apply as it does not say what you claim. And as you deny that the Jews had those rights then so you must deny the arab muslims.

The Jews who were Turkish citizens became Palestinian citizens. There was no denial of rights at all. Even the PLO agreed.

 

[Hollie]

ARTICLE I6.

Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognised by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned.

You post this all the time. Neither the LoN nor the Mandate claimed any sovereignty. The LoN did say who would be the benefactors of their tutelage. They used terms like the people, the inhabitants, the natives, and the indigenous. There was no mention of foreigners.

So who were these people? The treaty of Lausanne spelled that out.

SECTION II .
NATIONALITY.
ARTICLE 30.

Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipsofacto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred.​

They were talking about the people who actually lived there being citizens of their respective states. No foreigners were mentioned. The Palestinians have the right to sovereignty on their land as affirmed by subsequent UN resolutions.

And you have been shown that this does not apply as it does not say what you claim. And as you deny that the Jews had those rights then so you must deny the arab muslims.

The Jews who were Turkish citizens became Palestinian citizens. There was no denial of rights at all. Even the PLO agreed.

The Jewish people exercised their right of self-determination and became Israeli citizens. This has been explained to you on many occasions across multiple threads. How is it you don't understand?

 

[Shusha]

The Jews who were Turkish citizens became Palestinian citizens

Right. The Jewish Palestinians and the Arab Palestinians became citizens of the geographical territory under the Mandate which was labelled "Palestine" but was not a sovereign State because it had not fulfilled the obligations required, under treaty, to "self-govern and stand alone".

Then the Jewish Palestinians exercised their right to self-determination and self-governance by fulfilling those obligations, declaring independence and being internationally recognized for doing so.

 

[P F Tinmore]

but was not a sovereign State because it had not fulfilled the obligations required, under treaty, to "self-govern and stand alone".

Unsubstantiated Israeli talking point.

 

[montelatici]

Projecting doesn't make you appear any less moronic. The Egyptians are from Egypt, the Syrians are from Syria and the Lebanese are from Lebanon. The Palestinians are from Palestine and the Jews came from Europe invaded Palestine and are now squatting on Christian and Muslim land. Those are the facts.

The problem with your hypocritical point of view, monte, is a Lebanese who moves to Palestine magically becomes a Palestinian whose "ancestors have been living there for thousands of years" while a Jew whose ancestors actually have been there for thousands of years somehow transforms into a European invader.

Not more than a month or so, your partner in crime posted a story about a poor "Palestinian" family who turned out to be Lebanese.

The real facts are that there has been a great deal of immigration into the geographical area known as Palestine in the past two hundred years or so. Before that, there was an Arab Muslim conquest. And before that were the indigenous Jewish people.

The descendants of indigenous people, that practiced Judaism, Samaritanism, Roman, Caanite religions etc., are still in Palestine, they happen to follow the Christian and Muslim faiths today. The European Jews were from Europe and were Europeans.

Surprise: Ashkenazi Jews Are Genetically European
Surprise: Ashkenazi Jews Are Genetically European

Immigration to Palestine over the past 200 years has been overwhelmingly Jewish.


"59. The conclusion is that Arab illegal immigration for the purposes of permanent settlement is insignificant."

A Survey of Palestine Vol 1, page 212, para. 59

A Survey of Palestine Volume 1 | Berman Jewish Policy Archive @ Stanford University

Conversely:

" It follows that the Jewish population may now include between 50,000 and 60,000 illegal immigrants who have settled in Palestine at any time since 1920 when the first Immigration Ordinance was enacted. "

A Survey of Palestine Vol 1, page 210, para. 54

A Survey of Palestine Volume 1 | Berman Jewish Policy Archive @ Stanford University

On the other hand:

The Arabs in Palestine | Jewish Virtual Library

A Population Boom
As Hussein foresaw, the regeneration of Palestine, and the growth of its population, came only after Jews returned in massive numbers. The Jewish population increased by 470,000 between World War I and World War II while the non-Jewish population rose by 588,000. In fact, the permanent Arab population increased 120 percent between 1922 and 1947.

This rapid growth was a result of several factors. One was immigration from neighboring states — constituting 37 percent of the total immigration to pre-state Israel — by Arabs who wanted to take advantage of the higher standard of living the Jews had made possible. The Arab population also grew because of the improved living conditions created by the Jews as they drained malarial swamps and brought improved sanitation and health care to the region. Thus, for example, the Muslim infant mortality rate fell from 201 per thousand in 1925 to 94 per thousand in 1945 and life expectancy rose from 37 years in 1926 to 49 in 1943.

The Arab population increased the most in cities with large Jewish populations that had created new economic opportunities. From 19221947, the non-Jewish population increased 290 percent in Haifa, 131 percent in Jerusalem and 158 percent in Jaffa. The growth in Arab towns was more modest: 42 percent in Nablus, 78 percent in Jenin and 37 percent in Bethlehem.

LOL. Jewish Virtual Library a propaganda site, versus an official Anglo-American survey commissioned by the UN. Well done.

 

[Shusha]

but was not a sovereign State because it had not fulfilled the obligations required, under treaty, to "self-govern and stand alone".

Unsubstantiated Israeli talking point.

Translation: I have no logical way of countering those points.

 

[montelatici]

The Jews who were Turkish citizens became Palestinian citizens

Right. The Jewish Palestinians and the Arab Palestinians became citizens of the geographical territory under the Mandate which was labelled "Palestine" but was not a sovereign State because it had not fulfilled the obligations required, under treaty, to "self-govern and stand alone".

Then the Jewish Palestinians exercised their right to self-determination and self-governance by fulfilling those obligations, declaring independence and being internationally recognized for doing so.

You keep repeating this lie. The British prevented the Christians and Muslims from fulfilling any obligations. In fact. the British would not even negotiate with the Christians and Muslim leadership. They only recognized the Zionist Organization, from the beginning, in 1922. Churchill's response (in part) to the Palestinian delegation:

"2. I am to point out in the first place that, while your Delegation is recognised by Mr. Churchill as representing a large section of the Moslem and Christian inhabitants of Palestine, and while the Secretary of State is anxious to discuss his present proposals informally with recognised representatives, such as yourselves, of any important section of the community, he is not in a position to negotiate officially with you or with any other body which claims to represent the whole or, part of the people of Palestine........You state in your letter that the people of Palestine cannot accept this Declaration as a basis for discussion. Mr. Churchill is unable for the reasons stated above to regard your Delegation as officially representing the People of Palestine.....If your Delegation really represents the present attitude of the majority of the Arab population of Palestine, and Mr. Churchill has no grounds for suggesting that this is not the case, it is quite clear that the creation at this stage of a national Government would preclude the fulfilment of the pledge made by the British Government to the Jewish people."

UK correspondence with Palestine Arab Delegation and Zionist Organization/British policy in Palestine: "Churchill White Paper" - UK documentation Cmd. 1700/Non-UN document (excerpts) (1 July 1922)

As you can see, the British were intent on preventing the Christians and Muslims from negotiating their self-determination.