Israel’s ‘Right to Exist’

[PubliusInfinitum]

There were No jews where I grew up.

I Do Not hate or dislike Jews.

I am only opposed to Zionism

So you don't hate Jews... you're just opposed to allowing Jews to have a country of their own... a position which rest in DIRECT CONFLICT with your other position which DEMANDS that the PALESTINIANS SHOULD HAVE A COUNTRY OF THEIR OWN...

ROFL... well sure... it's an irrational non sequitur which folds over on itself... so YEP... it's a classic example of what stands for 'high-thinkin' on the ideological left.'

Good stuff...

Now give a hundred or so words on how the Israelis are the aggressors... despite their ceasely concessions and appeasements in DOZENS of agreements; ALL of which were extended for the sake of 'PEACE" and ALL OF WHICH WERE SUMMARILY AND CONSISTANTLY VIOLATED BY ISRAEL'S ENEMIES who promised that peace... yet NEVER gets the credit they deserve for THEIR BREACH OF THAT PROMISED PEACE...

LOL... always a laugh riot...

 

[GHook93]

Back up, your blaming any problems that America has on Israel? LOL who would have thought!

First, America is no where near collaspe.
Second, any problems the US has financially is not caused by Israel
Third, Israel got to where it is by hard work and dedication.
Fourth, spoken like a man that has never been to Israel. Israel has developed a Western and developed society faster than any nation on earth, but its not all rosey in Israel and there is definitely not a pool in every backyard!

Israel’s ‘Right to Exist’

July 29, 2008

I have heard it for the entirety of my 61 years of life–Israel’s ‘Right To Exist’. In fact, in recent memory I have heard this phrase more than I’ve heard ‘Happy Thanksgiving’ or ‘Merry Christmas’ or even ‘Have a Good 4th of July’.

Israel seems to exist quite well. Her people have a very high living standard compared to the rest of the world. Israel has the most sophisticated armed forces in the Middle East, if indeed not the world. According to one of our former presidents, Israel is said to possess several hundred nuclear weapons and if we are to believe some of the things said by Israel’s leaders in recent years she is ready to destroy mankind if her leaders choose to do so.

Israeli’s live a very good life style, second to none. A swimming pool in every back yard on stolen land, plenty of food, jobs, stocks, cash, you name it. Their quality of life continues to grow and prosper every month of every year.

Now what I have a problem with is this–doesn’t the United States of America also have a ‘Right to Exist’?

Yes we do, but unfortunately that right is being taken away from us every second, every minute, every hour, every month and every year and all for the sake of Israel’s ‘Right To Exist’. What’s wrong with this story? Well, I’ll explain what’s wrong with it and believe me, its not that hard to figure out.

Crescent And Cross

 

[GHook93]

You are the dumbshit terrorist supporter with out facts. Arabs in Israel even have 12 members in the Knesset. As I recall one holds a position of high power.

Arabs are the only group exempt from mandatory military service though they are encouraged to volunteer. Except in several Large cities most Arab communities are run by Arab officials. They even have their own Courts.

Don't forget about the Arab supreme court judge!

 

[morpheus]

As soon as the phrase 'stolen land' is seen, the article can be dismissed as bias nonsense.

Not necessarily.

I'm not advocating a greater Palestine (which would territorially include Israel proper), but a lot of Palestinians were forced off their lands and out of their homes in the 1940s. Israeli courts have ordered for the compensation of these Palestinians (now living outside Israel proper), but the Palestinians who won these cases have yet to receive their compensation. The situation is incredibly complex, and I'm afraid several posters in this thread are simplifying it due to their own prejudices and ignorance.

Whether or not Israel has the right to exist can be debated with no end, but from a legal perspective, Israel does have the right to exist, as a result of United Nations voting in favour of the 1947 partition plan. However, Israel's occupation of the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Golan Heights are not internationally recognized, and this can be argued that it impedes progress towards the two-state solution. While some American foreign policy hawks will argue that the Palestinians are to blame for this, they leave out -due to their own biases and ignorance- that Fatah and the vast majority of Arab governments agree that -under a two-state solution- Israel should exist with its pre-1967 borders more or less, with some land swaps here and there. On the other hand, Israeli settlements continue to exist in the West Bank, in violation of the Oslo Accords, and in contradiction to the two-state principle. This flatly puts the ball back in Israel's court. In fact, in times of ceasefire or relative peace, Israeli public opinion favours withdrawal from the West Bank, and many Israelis themselves agree that this is a major roadblock towards the two-state solution. The status of Jerusalem is also a contentious issue, and as long as you have Palestinians continually living in poverty and having to go through security checks and concrete walls just to travel around the West Bank, it provides for an explosive situation.

On a side note, Hamas has been in talks with Egypt and France, as those two countries are currently at the diplomatic forefront of reaching a ceasefire. So, it's not true that Hamas is only in Damascus, and in fact, Syria is very isolated right now within the Arab world, as the bigwigs, like Egypt and Saudi Arabia, are pushing Hamas for a ceasefire. Only Shia/non-Arab Iran continues with its anti-Israel rhetoric nonsense ("Israel should be wiped off the map" etc), and that's because the country's president is a mouthpiece for those who really run the country, and because their internationally-isolated regime -highly unpopular at home- is trying to win the propaganda war both at home and within the greater Middle East ("greater" Middle East meaning: MidEast plus Pakistan, North Africa, etc). However, Iran has consistently -since 1979- failed to rile up the Arab nations, and is by all means an outsider to the Middle East's inner circle (Egypt, Saudi, Jordan, Gulf States). Iran enjoys a pathetic alliance with Syria and far-flung Venezuela (under Chavez), and a loose and fragile economic trade relationship with Russia.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Whether or not Israel has the right to exist can be debated with no end,

lol... Sure... But anything CAN BE ARGUED... Hells bells there are leftists on this very board that ARGUE that adults should have a right to engage in a sexual relationship with pre and barely pubescent minors that they manage to entice into a sexual desire for them... but such can NOT be argued where reason and sound moral principle is recognized...

but from a legal perspective, Israel does have the right to exist

Legal and moral... The Jewish state has a greater claim to the land than do the Palestinians. I suspect that the equity resolutions would have been resolved LONG ago, had the Arabs not been such incomprehensible pricks and opted to wage a never ending war on innocent Israelis.

Israel's occupation of the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Golan Heights are not internationally recognized, and this can be argued that it impedes progress towards the two-state solution.

The two state notion is absurd... as such is simply not sustainable. The Palestinians are a welfare lost cause... their entire psychology is dependent upon being victims; and that inherent victim-hood will always forment a chronic need to 'get even' and project the blame for their woes onto Israel...

While some American foreign policy hawks will argue that the Palestinians are to blame for this, they leave out -due to their own biases and ignorance- that Fatah and the vast majority of Arab governments agree that -under a two-state solution- Israel should exist with its pre-1967 borders more or less, with some land swaps here and there.

The entire Arab strategy is to leave the Palestinians as an anchor around Israel's cultural neck; and setting THAT aside, the surrounding Arab states have no means to reign in the terrorist interests in the Palestinian territories.

On the other hand, Israeli settlements continue to exist in the West Bank, in violation of the Oslo Accords, and in contradiction to the two-state principle. This flatly puts the ball back in Israel's court.

Israel has conceded the respective land IN TOTAL... what you're attempting to do here is rationalize yet another excuse wherein Israel is depicted as "NOT DOING ENOUGH..." It's nonsense of the absurd variety. IT IS NEVER ENOUGH... and it WILL NEVER BE ENOUGH...

In fact, in times of ceasefire or relative peace, Israeli public opinion favours withdrawal from the West Bank, and many Israelis themselves agree that this is a major roadblock towards the two-state solution.

This is true... and it is this 'centrist' view which lies between Israel and the steeled courage necessary to finish the job and secure a lasting peace. Which is to take the war directly to their enemies and to do so in such merciless ferocity and to such an extent that there will remain no Arab resting along her boarder, which has any desire to further contest her existance.

The simple fact is that Israel is NO CLOSER TO PEACE than they were in 1967... and this rests with those, not unlike yourself, who chronically and intentionally assess the aggressor as the victim and the victim as the aggressor; and until Israel finally realizes that lending credence to such counter-productive drivel is the source of the death of her children... she will continue to live with the certain that today, more innocent Israelis will by murdered, by those whose entire life is focused on murdering innocent Israelis.

Palestine needs to be wiped clean of it's Arab enemies... in totality and finality; and on that day... Israel will finally know peace.

 

[morpheus]

PubliusInfinitum,

Wow, what a load of hate.

I understand your perspective -much as a I disagree with most of it- but I think you focused too much on dissecting my post and making irrelevant comments on my paragraph transitions, rather than give me a coherent overall argument. Although I was able to interpret a deep resentment for Palestinians, Arabs, and the political left, and a distorted hindsight on the plight of Palestinians in the 20th century.

 

[Xenophon]

Not necessarily.

Yes necessarily.

Any land a Jew stood on when the partition was official they owned outright and leagally.

Arabs rejected teh partition and therefore had NO leagal status, so they can't claim they 'owned' anything, and Jews never 'forced them out' of anything, in fact Jews begged them to stay.

learn about this if you want to discuss it, 'stolen land' is an arafat created buzzword that seeped into the mainstream because so many jew haters use it.

 

[Anguille]

jew haters

Have you voted in the poll yet?
http://www.usmessageboard.com/race-...-you-question-israels-policies-does-that.html

 

[Amanda]

Ya know, I disagree with Sunni Man about a lot of stuff, but just for a change I'd like to see him debated on the merits of his argument rather than the constant personal attacks. It would really be refreshing, at least to me.

My mind is pretty open about the Israeli/Palestinian situation and I'd really, really like to hear well reasoned arguments on the subject.

 

[Godboy]

Ya know, I disagree with Sunni Man about a lot of stuff, but just for a change I'd like to see him debated on the merits of his argument rather than the constant personal attacks. It would really be refreshing, at least to me.

Sunni doesnt have arguements, he has critiques. Hes overly critical of everything Israel does and never offers an alternative solution for Israel to take. He will tell you to no end about all the bad things Israel does, some true, other things not true, but he offers no solutions at all. The basis of every post he makes is a slam on Israel.

He makes no acknowledgment of the terrible things Hamas does and his ideas about the whole situation are tainted and overly biased, making a logical discussion with him impossible. When he wont recognize key facts about the conflict, like Hamas indescriminantly firing rockets ito Israel, does his voice really matter?

 

[auditor0007]

Not true!

Who told you this lie?

It is true that there are a few other countries where Muslims live very good lives. Kuwait, UAE, are two that come to mind right off the top of my head. However, Muslims living in most other Muslim dominated countries do not live all that well, even in oil rich countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia. Of course some do, but the majority live a quality of life that is far below that of a small minority.

Most welfare recipients in the US live better than the majority of Muslims in most Muslim countries. That's just the way it is.

 

[auditor0007]

Ya know, I disagree with Sunni Man about a lot of stuff, but just for a change I'd like to see him debated on the merits of his argument rather than the constant personal attacks. It would really be refreshing, at least to me.

My mind is pretty open about the Israeli/Palestinian situation and I'd really, really like to hear well reasoned arguments on the subject.

If your mind is open then you haven't researched the history very well. Do so and you will be forced to choose a side.

The bottom line is this: Israel exists and will continue to exist. Because it does exist means it has a right to exist. You can argue about stolen land until you're blue in the face. The USA was stolen from the Indians. Tough shit. This is now the US and it's not going anywhere.

It's not a matter of legitimizing how we got here; it's the fact that we are here now.

 

[Xenophon]

Have you voted in the poll yet?
http://www.usmessageboard.com/race-...-you-question-israels-policies-does-that.html

I don't waste my time with nonsense.

I judge people on what they say, you can spot a Jew hater very easily, they normally start with saying they 'legitimately' question Israel, but before long they say things like 'JEW controlled media' or too muh 'JEWISH' influence in Washington, or business or in Hollywood, ect.

 

[GHook93]

I agree. What's necessary is for the Palestinian government and Israel to both fight against terrorism, which brings nothing but misery to both peoples, and this is already beginning to happen in the West Bank.

Israel is consistent in fighting Jewish Terrorism otherwise there wouldn't be one Israeli Arab in Israel!

 

[Anguille]

Do so and you will be forced to choose a side.

What do you mean by "forced to choose a side"?

Sounds like "you're either for us or against us" talk.

There are many facets to this issue and it is constantly changing. It's so simplistic as saying a person can only be on the side of Israel or the side of the Palestinians. Among other things it's also possible to be pro ordinary Israeli/Palestinian and anti what their governments are putting them through.

The bottom line is this: Israel exists and will continue to exist. Because it does exist means it has a right to exist. You can argue about stolen land until you're blue in the face. The USA was stolen from the Indians. Tough shit. This is now the US and it's not going anywhere.

It's not a matter of legitimizing how we got here; it's the fact that we are here now.

Israel is here to stay. The time to have done away with Israel, when the immigrants first displaced the Palestinians, is long past. Anyone born in Israel has the right to be there, the immigrants do too after all this time. The land is now their home and they collectively chose to be the State of Israel. It makes no sense to even consider doing away with Israel.

But claiming that it's origins are similar to those of the USA do not legitimize it's original claims to the land. Do two wrongs make a right? Israel could learn from some of the the mistakes the US made when dealing with native populations. Living conditions on US Indian reservations are sub standard but nothing in comparison to what Israel subjects the Palestinians in Gaza to.

Israel will continue to be at war with it's neighbor as long as it continues to abuse it's control of the air, land and sea borders of Gaza.

 

[Gurdari]

So you don't hate Jews... you're just opposed to allowing Jews to have a country of their own... a position which rest in DIRECT CONFLICT with your other position which DEMANDS that the PALESTINIANS SHOULD HAVE A COUNTRY OF THEIR OWN...

ROFL... well sure... it's an irrational non sequitur which folds over on itself... so YEP... it's a classic example of what stands for 'high-thinkin' on the ideological left.'

Good stuff...

Now give a hundred or so words on how the Israelis are the aggressors... despite their ceasely concessions and appeasements in DOZENS of agreements; ALL of which were extended for the sake of 'PEACE" and ALL OF WHICH WERE SUMMARILY AND CONSISTANTLY VIOLATED BY ISRAEL'S ENEMIES who promised that peace... yet NEVER gets the credit they deserve for THEIR BREACH OF THAT PROMISED PEACE...

LOL... always a laugh riot...

For your first argument, you are confusing a state based on religion with the shift of a territory into a state... Palestine is not a religion. A Palestinian state would not be (by virtue of its creation) a state based on one's religion.

As for Israeli aggression... well, they broke the ceasefire, tend to use white phosphorus, cluster bombs on civillian areas, hate International law (like some of our 'best' nations do) claim to abide by agreements then don't (look up the technical definition of occupation... just removing your troops is not enough) and well, don't take my word for it. Go do some serious research and don't stop even if it gets uncomfortable.


Good luck

 

[jillian]

For your first argument, you are confusing a state based on religion with the shift of a territory into a state... Palestine is not a religion. A Palestinian state would not be (by virtue of its creation) a state based on one's religion.

As for Israeli aggression... well, they broke the ceasefire, tend to use white phosphorus, cluster bombs on civillian areas, hate International law (like some of our 'best' nations do) claim to abide by agreements then don't (look up the technical definition of occupation... just removing your troops is not enough) and well, don't take my word for it. Go do some serious research and don't stop even if it gets uncomfortable.


Good luck

Just how did Israel "break the ceasefire" when they took 3,000 missiles before responding?

i just so love people who have a passing relationship with the truth.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Anguille
Israel is here to stay. The time to have done away with Israel, when the immigrants first displaced the Palestinians, is long past. Anyone born in Israel has the right to be there, the immigrants do too after all this time. The land is now their home and they collectively chose to be the State of Israel. It makes no sense to even consider doing away with Israel.

Why not?

It made a lot of sense to do away with racist South Africa.

 

[Xenophon]

Why not?

It made a lot of sense to do away with racist South Africa.

How about we do away with the racist Muslim states first?

We can start with Saudi Arabia.

When you are done with the 40 or so odd states, then we can discuss Israel.

 

[GHook93]

Why not?

It made a lot of sense to do away with racist South Africa.

LOL, if Israel insisted on keeping the WB and Gaza and running over 3.5 million Palestinians without giving them equal citizenship, then I would agree that Israel maintains a apartheid system. However, that is not the case!

Israel has stated they would give up the WB and Gaza for a Palestinian State. The Palestinians in Gaza and the WB are not Israelis! Lastly, Israeli Arabs share all the same rights as Jewish Israelis except they are exempt from having to serve in the military!