"Israel Made the Desert Bloom" is a Myth, They Stole the Land from Farmers Who Were Already There for Hundreds of Years

I hope you can see how making the claim that you did, "found guilty" could lead a reader to draw false conclusions. Unless you were asked for clarification by someone who knew you were wrong, would you have self-clarified so no one got the wrong idea?
That seems to be the mode of operation these days, both here and in the media. Post a lie, let it spread through useful idiots, flail if you get called out on it. I'm absolutely certain it is deliberate.
 
That seems to be the mode of operation these days, both here and in the media. Post a lie, let it spread through useful idiots, flail if you get called out on it. I'm absolutely certain it is deliberate.


First, not all of us spend all day and night working this forum and cannot respond for days, sometimes.

Some of us even research and study the history and issues more than they write rather than recycling the same tired Hasbara script attempting to defend the indefensible.

Next, please show just one lie that I've written and "been called out on."
 
Next, please show just one lie that I've written and "been called out on."
This was the most recent one:
Next, many members of it [the Netanyahu government] have already been found guilty by international courts of some form of war crime or crime against humanity.
 
First, not all of us spend all day and night working this forum and cannot respond for days, sometimes.

Some of us even research and study the history and issues more than they write rather than recycling the same tired Hasbara script attempting to defend the indefensible.
Your bullying tactics of personal attacks won't work on me. The research I've done and continue to do is deep and thorough.
 
'THEN THEY GET SNARKY..."

ah, the "good Jew" reference. A classic.

they don't deserve labels but you seem to enjoy loading up on those.

yeah..."journalists"


well, to start, 4 (or was it 5) on October 7th. It seems that any concern for journalists started after that.

so no one has been found guilty, the ICC (of which Israel is not a part) pursued arrest warrants to deflect attention from its own sex scandal, and one of the prime movers here, South Africa, (which pushed the ICJ to pursue the whole genocide canard) has had its own issues with the court. I hope you can see how making the claim that you did, "found guilty" could lead a reader to draw false conclusions. Unless you were asked for clarification by someone who knew you were wrong, would you have self-clarified so no one got the wrong idea?

see? Starting again with labels. You'll note that I answered your question and THEN asked you about your response to a similar question. You are avoiding answering. Why?

Not exactly civil war, but many years ago, when the political reality was different, Israel benefited from tension between the PA and Hamas and did take steps to help Hamas because that also maintained the state of relative peace between Israel and the Gaza entity. Overblown statements without explanation or qualification might lead people to misunderstandings so it is best to be more precise and eschew soundbites.

No, he said that no one will let it happen even if it is justified and moral. Nothing about "getting away with it". Again, misstating or misrepresenting the positions of others might pack some short term punch but if it can't stand even the most basic scrutiny, all it does is weaken your credibility.




Re:
ah, the "good Jew" reference. A classic.

I was afraid that it was just a matter of time before you got frustrated trying to deny the irrefutable fact that right wing elements of the Netanyahu government is comprised of genocidal, "Jews Only" bigots and had to resort to snarky ethnic quip.

Your whole post is a verbose attempt to evade seeing the elephant in the room that more and more rational people around the world condemn every day.

You have never answered my earlier question which was:

"Are you among those who condones the horrific atrocities committed by the Netanyahu government or do you condemn them." (Post # 181)

The closest thing to an answer was some version of " some of them".

Next, quibbling over the degree to which Netanyahu and Gallant are guilty of war crimes is a moot point in light of the horrific images coming out of Gaza.

Of course I've read the identical fraudulent deflections from apologists for the multiple atrocities going on in the Occupied Territories:

"Journalists are really Hamas members." (usual Hasbara lie)
"Hamas started the 80 year old Nakba." ("False Flag"
"Hamas steals all the aid." (Therefore, starve everyone.)
"Hamas uses Human Shields" (Even though IDF targets children).
"Hamas beheaded 40 babies and committed multiple rapes." (This, too, has been completely debunked.)
"Hamas causes global warming." etc

Re:
....would you have self-clarified so no one got the wrong idea?

Of course. Why wouldn't I?

If that's the only thing that I've written that unclear., then I'm not doing too badly.

War criminals are rarely found guilty in a court of law and punished while they are in office.

Re:
see? Starting again with labels......

What is your problem with labels if they are accurate and as specific as possible?
I'm not evading anything. I don't spend every waking hour here and have other Posts that I respond do.

Re:
Again, misstating or misrepresenting the positions of others....

You're clearly desperate for a "gotcha" moment if that's what you call a "misquote".

I did not misstate Smotrich's sentiments as he said that only understandable world opinion prevents him and I did not put "get away with it" in quotes (1)

That's the same thing as his saying that he would starve them but he couldn't because of world opinion.

How odd that in your crusade to root out misquotes you should miss the repeated and genuine misquote of my assertion by Shusha concerning: "...most ruthless foreign funded genocide." (Post # 187)







"Smotrich: It may be ‘justified’ to starve 2 million Gazans, but world won’t let us"​

"Far-right minister expresses support for resettling Gaza, says October 7 wouldn’t have happened had it not been for 2005 disengagement from Strip"​


EXCERPT "“We bring in aid because there is no choice,” Smotrich said at a conference in Yad Binyamin hosted by the right-wing Israel Hayom outlet. “We can’t, in the current global reality, manage a war. Nobody will let us cause 2 million civilians to die of hunger, even though it might be justified and moral, until our hostages are returned." CONTINUED
 
This was the most recent one:


Your desperation is showing as I clarified the different interpretations of "guilty" immediately.

On the other hand, you deliberately misquoted me for points by omitting the salient term "foreign funded".

Please stop.
 
Your desperation is showing as I clarified the different interpretations of "guilty" immediately.
I do not believe for a single moment that you are confused between the terms "charged with a crime" and "found guilty of a crime". The latter, of course, encompassing: charged with, investigated, tried, and found guilty.
On the other hand, you deliberately misquoted me for points by omitting the salient term "foreign funded".
I did not omit it. Rather, I specifically and deliberately, drew attention to it. I directly addressed it (twice now) in my posts to you. Here's a third time. My assertion is that you intentionally included the term "foreign-funded" as a way of excluding other "genocides" for comparison. And you did this intentionally in order to apply the terms "longest" and "most brutal" to Israel. And you did this intentionally in order to weasel out of discussion of real genocides, leaving the impact of "most brutal" hanging on Israel for our useful idiots.

Both of these examples demonstrate a deliberate manipulation of language for the effect of demonizing Israel.
 
I was afraid that it was just a matter of time before you got frustrated
I didn't get frustrated. You are imputing emotions. Bad form, Peter.
trying to deny the irrefutable fact
already a loaded statement
that right wing elements of the Netanyahu government is comprised of genocidal, "Jews Only" bigots and had to resort to snarky ethnic quip.
are there individuals who espouse hateful, genocidal or bigoted positions? Yes, but they are one voice in a coalition and I can't throw out the entire government's position on X because one vote within it said so-and-so about Y.
Your whole post is a verbose attempt to evade seeing the elephant in the room that more and more rational people around the world condemn every day.
why is that the elephant in the room. I have been clear about that -- the rational people say otherwise, this is a PR battle.
You have never answered my earlier question which was:

"Are you among those who condones the horrific atrocities committed by the Netanyahu government or do you condemn them." (Post # 181)
ooh, look, more loaded language..."condones" and "horrific atrocities" and "committed by the Netanyahu government" and then the final, false binary of "condemn."
The closest thing to an answer was some version of " some of them".
Because complex questions demand nuanced answers. If you want soundbites look elsewhere
1755043183318.webp

Next, quibbling over the degree to which Netanyahu and Gallant are guilty of war crimes is a moot point in light of the horrific images coming out of Gaza.
No...the fact that you made a claim about their being proven guilty and are now trying to shift focus after having been proven wrong is what started this off shoot conversation.
Of course. Why wouldn't I?
because you hadn't. If you had, I wouldn't be asking.
If that's the only thing that I've written that unclear., then I'm not doing too badly.

War criminals are rarely found guilty in a court of law and punished while they are in office.
so that makes your initial claim even stranger. It is almost as if you should have known that your claim was wrong when you said it!
Re:


What is your problem with labels if they are accurate and as specific as possible?
then, they would be useful. I have yet to see that be the case. Now they are expressions of your judgment and your vocabulary.
Re:


You're clearly desperate for a "gotcha" moment if that's what you call a "misquote".

I did not misstate Smotrich's sentiments as he said that only understandable world opinion prevents him and I did not put "get away with it" in quotes (1)
please try to follow along -- you presented a quote which said that the world wouldn't let anyone starve even if the cause was moral and just. Then you reiterated a question, beginning with "Again" which included (emphasis mine), "...Smotrich and his genocidal ilk who would starve about 2 million civilians if he could get away with it?" This is a definite causal statement presented as following the logic of the directly preceding quote which was used to clarify after the first time you presented this question. So you thought that this quote led to that claim the question. But it didn't
That's the same thing as his saying that he would starve them but he couldn't because of world opinion.
No it isn't, even if you want it to.
 
" THE HOLOCAUST'- A P.R. BATTLE' TOO"
I didn't get frustrated. You are imputing emotions. Bad form, Peter.

already a loaded statement

are there individuals who espouse hateful, genocidal or bigoted positions? Yes, but they are one voice in a coalition and I can't throw out the entire government's position on X because one vote within it said so-and-so about Y.

why is that the elephant in the room. I have been clear about that -- the rational people say otherwise, this is a PR battle.

ooh, look, more loaded language..."condones" and "horrific atrocities" and "committed by the Netanyahu government" and then the final, false binary of "condemn."

Because complex questions demand nuanced answers. If you want soundbites look elsewhere
View attachment 1148503

No...the fact that you made a claim about their being proven guilty and are now trying to shift focus after having been proven wrong is what started this off shoot conversation.

because you hadn't. If you had, I wouldn't be asking.

so that makes your initial claim even stranger. It is almost as if you should have known that your claim was wrong when you said it!

then, they would be useful. I have yet to see that be the case. Now they are expressions of your judgment and your vocabulary.

please try to follow along -- you presented a quote which said that the world wouldn't let anyone starve even if the cause was moral and just. Then you reiterated a question, beginning with "Again" which included (emphasis mine), "...Smotrich and his genocidal ilk who would starve about 2 million civilians if he could get away with it?" This is a definite causal statement presented as following the logic of the directly preceding quote which was used to clarify after the first time you presented this question. So you thought that this quote led to that claim the question. But it didn't

No it isn't, even if you want it to.


You've just exemplified the degree to which you are unaware of the realities on the ground in the Occupied Territories by dismissing as "a PR battle" a blatant and sadistic genocide condemned by a vast majority of the planet.

Re:
why is that the elephant in the room. I have been clear about that -- the rational people say otherwise, this is a PR battle. why

I feel certain that if the tables were turned and Jews were the ones being systematically exterminated, starved and deliberately expelled from their homes, you would not be quibbling about "labels", "loaded language" and strong "vocabulary".

If you were not supportive of murdering Palestine's native residents, expelling them from their homes and stealing their land, you'd be able to provide a direct answer to stunningly obvious question:

"Are you among those who condones the horrific atrocities committed by the Netanyahu government or do you condemn them." (Post # 181)

Were there any "horrific atrocities" during the Holocaust or is that just "loaded language" too?

You seem to dispute that the right wing element in the Netanyahu government is guilty of "horrific atrocities" even in light of majority condemnations around the world and the following facts:

1. "Gaza surgeon describes drones targeting children"
Gaza surgeon describes drones targeting children

EXCERPT "A retired surgeon who volunteered at a hospital in Gaza has told MPs that Israeli drones would target children who were lying injured after bombings." CONTINUED



2. "Why do Israeli soldiers kill so many children in the West Bank? Because they want to, and can"
"New report highlights dozens of chilling cases in which Israeli forces have deliberately targeted Palestinian children since 7 October"


3. "The bloodiest face of its genocide: Israel has killed 2,100 Palestinian infants and toddlers in Gaza"


EXCERPT " The systematic killings of Palestinian civilians, who make up at least 92% of the total number of deaths due to the genocide, will have a negative impact on the population growth rates and reproductive capacity for generations to come." CONTINUED


4. "MORE WOMEN AND CHILDREN KILLED IN GAZA BY ISRAELI MILITARY THAN ANY OTHER RECENT CONFLICT IN A SINGLE YEAR"


So ALL reports by multiple sources around the globe are just "Hamas propagandists", there's "no starvation", no "genocide" and the systematic extermination must go on............ Right?
 
"Are you among those who condones the horrific atrocities committed by the Netanyahu government or do you condemn them." (Post # 181)
This is a fallacious question, in that it pre-supposes an agreed upon foundation for the question, which is: Israel has committed horrific atrocities. In order to answer the question, both the questioner and the questionee would have to come to an agreement on what is intended by "horrific atrocities".
 
I do not believe for a single moment that you are confused between the terms "charged with a crime" and "found guilty of a crime". The latter, of course, encompassing: charged with, investigated, tried, and found guilty.

I did not omit it. Rather, I specifically and deliberately, drew attention to it. I directly addressed it (twice now) in my posts to you. Here's a third time. My assertion is that you intentionally included the term "foreign-funded" as a way of excluding other "genocides" for comparison. And you did this intentionally in order to apply the terms "longest" and "most brutal" to Israel. And you did this intentionally in order to weasel out of discussion of real genocides, leaving the impact of "most brutal" hanging on Israel for our useful idiots.

Both of these examples demonstrate a deliberate manipulation of language for the effect of demonizing Israel.

I can understand how your inability to refute the atrocities in the Occupied Territories (Gaza & West Bank) compiles you to rely on diversionary "Gotcha" moments such as:
1. The word "Guilty":
Since arrest warrants are not issued for people who are innocent, my characterization of the two wanted men is not outrageously false.
After I quickly double checked, I clarified that the two had not yet gone to trial within 15 minutes.

"Decisions on requests by the State of Israel"

21 November 2024

EXCERPT "Today, on 21 November 2024, Pre-Trial Chamber I of the International Criminal Court (‘Court’), in its composition for the Situation in the State of Palestine, unanimously issued two decisions rejecting challenges by the State of Israel (‘Israel’) brought under articles 18 and 19 of the Rome Statute (the ‘Statute’). It also issued warrants of arrest for Mr. Benjamin Netanyahu and Mr. Yoav Gallant" .CONTINUED

2. "Smotrich quote". Since I did not put "if he could get away with it..." in quotation marks, I didn't misquote him.

3. "...foreign funded...":
What makes the Gaza genocide and the 80 year old Nakba so egregious is the fact that the right wing element of the Netanyahu government couldn't commit its genocide without foreign funding / "aid".

There is no doubt that the Gaza genocide is brutal and the Nakba is about 80 years old so you can't say that the phrase: ".... oldest and most brutal foreign funded genocide" is false; you just don't like it because it's true.

Re:
Both of these examples demonstrate a deliberate manipulation of language for the effect of demonizing Israel.

First, I will admit that Shakespeare is among many who are better manipulators of language than I am but I don't see the harm in being at least moderately articulate.

What shout concern you far more than my words are the conditions for which the US is deeply complicit.

I have been very specific in not "demonizing Israel" (i.e. all Israelis, all IDF members, all Jews etc).
And:
I have repeatedly specified the right wing element in the Netanyahu government and the "Settler" terrorists as the criminal element.

I have not only written of numerous Jews and Jewish organizations that have been generous, helpful and courageous but posted examples of Jewish charities helping captive Palestinians.

Therefore, accusations of anti Jewish sentiment are demonstrably false.

The people responsible for the growing outrage of the majority of the planet are the war criminals in Israel who support the deliberate starving of about 2 million men, women and children like the Holodomor in the 1920s - 1930s.

Finally, supporting the Netanyahu governments right wing only guarantees continued misery for ALL Israelis if not worse.
I've mentioned this before and regret its reality but you are not supporting ALL of Israel with your position.
 
I can understand how your inability to refute the atrocities in the Occupied Territories (Gaza & West Bank) compiles you to rely on diversionary "Gotcha" moments such as:
1. The word "Guilty":
Since arrest warrants are not issued for people who are innocent, my characterization of the two wanted men is not outrageously false.
After I quickly double checked, I clarified that the two had not yet gone to trial within 15 minutes.

"Decisions on requests by the State of Israel"

21 November 2024

EXCERPT "Today, on 21 November 2024, Pre-Trial Chamber I of the International Criminal Court (‘Court’), in its composition for the Situation in the State of Palestine, unanimously issued two decisions rejecting challenges by the State of Israel (‘Israel’) brought under articles 18 and 19 of the Rome Statute (the ‘Statute’). It also issued warrants of arrest for Mr. Benjamin Netanyahu and Mr. Yoav Gallant" .CONTINUED

2. "Smotrich quote". Since I did not put "if he could get away with it..." in quotation marks, I didn't misquote him.

3. "...foreign funded...":
What makes the Gaza genocide and the 80 year old Nakba so egregious is the fact that the right wing element of the Netanyahu government couldn't commit its genocide without foreign funding / "aid".

There is no doubt that the Gaza genocide is brutal and the Nakba is about 80 years old so you can't say that the phrase: ".... oldest and most brutal foreign funded genocide" is false; you just don't like it because it's true.

Re:


First, I will admit that Shakespeare is among many who are better manipulators of language than I am but I don't see the harm in being at least moderately articulate.

What shout concern you far more than my words are the conditions for which the US is deeply complicit.

I have been very specific in not "demonizing Israel" (i.e. all Israelis, all IDF members, all Jews etc).
And:
I have repeatedly specified the right wing element in the Netanyahu government and the "Settler" terrorists as the criminal element.

I have not only written of numerous Jews and Jewish organizations that have been generous, helpful and courageous but posted examples of Jewish charities helping captive Palestinians.

Therefore, accusations of anti Jewish sentiment are demonstrably false.

The people responsible for the growing outrage of the majority of the planet are the war criminals in Israel who support the deliberate starving of about 2 million men, women and children like the Holodomor in the 1920s - 1930s.

Finally, supporting the Netanyahu governments right wing only guarantees continued misery for ALL Israelis if not worse.
I've mentioned this before and regret its reality but you are not supporting ALL of Israel with your position.

I can understand how your inability to refute the atrocities in the Occupied Territories (Gaza & West Bank)

Who had these territories? When were they occupied?
 
15th post
arrest warrants are not issued for people who are innocent
um...that's not true even a little. Every person who has been found "not guilty" in a criminal court after being arrested pursuant to a warrant would disagree
Since I did not put "if he could get away with it..." in quotation marks, I didn't misquote him.
but since you didn't differentiate between it and the rest of your claim, you put it on equal footing in your presentation. Was this intentionally misleading or just intellectually laziness?
I don't see the harm in being at least moderately articulate
The harm is when you are discussing subjects while only moderately articulate. If you lack the clarity of understanding, the integrity to check facts, or the vocabulary to fully express nuance then you might be doing a lot of harm.
Therefore, accusations of anti Jewish sentiment are demonstrably false.
you are responding to a message in which the words "Jew" and "Jewish" and "Judaism" are not to be found. You are now defending yourself (placing yourself as the victim of accusation) against something that wasn't.
 
um...that's not true even a little. Every person who has been found "not guilty" in a criminal court after being arrested pursuant to a warrant would disagree

but since you didn't differentiate between it and the rest of your claim, you put it on equal footing in your presentation. Was this intentionally misleading or just intellectually laziness?

The harm is when you are discussing subjects while only moderately articulate. If you lack the clarity of understanding, the integrity to check facts, or the vocabulary to fully express nuance then you might be doing a lot of harm.

you are responding to a message in which the words "Jew" and "Jewish" and "Judaism" are not to be found. You are now defending yourself (placing yourself as the victim of accusation) against something that wasn't.


There is absolutely nothing in your comment that has to do with the topic of this thread; just the usual off topic slurs, false accusations and desperate, meaningless "Gotcha" evasions.

The only thing that you have made clear is that racist hate and chronic "Chosen People" entitlement compels your support of one of the most widely condemned genocides in modern history.

As I have repeatedly shown, a majority of Americans (1) and growing number of ethical and compassionate Jews (2) around can see the genocidal and condemn monstrosities of the right wing element of the Netanyahu government.

Why can't you and fellow genocide deniers condemn what is so clear to most of the world?







(1). "A Majority of Americans Views Israel Negatively in wake of Gaza Genocide"

www.juancole.com

A Majority of Americans Views Israel Negatively in wake of Gaza Genocide

Ann Arbor (Informed Comment) - Laura Silver at the Pew Research Center reports that 53% of Americans now have a negative view of Israel, a stark deterioration from 42% in spring 2022 before the Israeli total war on Gaza. Moreover, in just 3 years the percentage of Americans with very negative...
www.juancole.com
www.juancole.com


EXCERPT "Laura Silver at the Pew Research Center reports that 53% of Americans now have a negative view of Israel, a stark deterioration from 42% in spring 2022 before the Israeli total war on Gaza.

Moreover, in just 3 years the percentage of Americans with very negative views of Israel has nearly doubled, from 10% to 19%. That is nearly one in five Americans." CONTINUED



(2). "One-third of American Jews agree Israel committed ‘genocide’ in Gaza: Poll"
www.middleeastmonitor.com

"One-third of American Jews agree Israel committed ‘genocide’ in Gaza: Poll"​

"Nearly one-third of American Jews agree with accusations that Israel committed “genocide” in the Gaza Strip, and 60 per cent support the establishment of an independent Palestinian State, a new pol…"
www.middleeastmonitor.com
www.middleeastmonitor.com

EXCERPT "Nearly one-third of American Jews agree with accusations that Israel committed “genocide” in the Gaza Strip, and 60 per cent support the establishment of an independent Palestinian State, a new poll has found, Anadolu Agency reports.

The survey, conducted by the Jerusalem Centre for Public Affairs, a private right-wing Israeli think tank, was carried out between 9 and 11 May and included 511 American Jews, according to a statement by the Centre.

“Approximately one-third of respondents agreed with the accusation that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza, while about half disagreed,” it said." CONTINUED
 
This is a fallacious question, in that it pre-supposes an agreed upon foundation for the question, which is: Israel has committed horrific atrocities. In order to answer the question, both the questioner and the questionee would have to come to an agreement on what is intended by "horrific atrocities".

Hogwash.

I'm guessing that you wouldn't quibble over something so glaringly obvious to most of the world if those suffering "horrific atrocities" were Jewish.
 
Hogwash.

I'm guessing that you wouldn't quibble over something so glaringly obvious to most of the world if those suffering "horrific atrocities" were Jewish.
Still a fallacious question as we have yet to establish what the "horrific atrocities" are. What, exactly, are you accusing Israel of committing?

I can name the things I condemn about the October 7 invasion and attack:
  • violation of Israeli sovereign territory
  • indiscriminate acts intended to cause death, bodily harm, destruction
  • targeting civilians
  • targeting protected persons (children)
  • intentional killing
  • intentional killing of protected persons (children)
  • intentional killing of members of a racial, ethnic, or national group, as such
  • mutilation
  • rape
  • sexual assault
  • torture
  • captivity
  • abduction
  • failure to provide necessities of life (water, food, medical care)
  • forced starvation
  • intentional medical mutilation
  • desecration of deceased
  • refusal to release remains

Do you agree that these "horrific atrocities" were committed by Hamas and (some) by civilians on October 7 and in the following months? If yes, do you condemn these horrific atrocities?

See how that works?
 

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