Israel has the Capability to be More Selective

[The Rabbi]

No - imho - I don't think they have stopped trying completely, I just know they can do a lot better.

at what price an increase in their own causalities

That wasn't the case at Entebbe - I don't see why it should translate into increased casualties.

You're comparing one special operation 30 years ago to a widespread military action?

 

[Peach]

Yes, I can see how the unilateral humanitarian ceasefires have added to the aggression. They received warning.

Note "UNILATERAL". Israel ceases firing, Hamas continues.

Yup. If Isreal surrendered tomorrow they would all be dead within two days.

If Hamas surrendered there would be peace.

Yes, but only Israelis are called upon not to defend their nation.

 

[nodoginnafight]

Note "UNILATERAL". Israel ceases firing, Hamas continues.

Yup. If Isreal surrendered tomorrow they would all be dead within two days.

If Hamas surrendered there would be peace.

Yes, but only Israelis are called upon not to defend their nation.

By who?

Are you really going to try to twist what I've posted into THAT?

That would be very dishonest.

 

[The Rabbi]

Yup. If Isreal surrendered tomorrow they would all be dead within two days.

If Hamas surrendered there would be peace.

Yes, but only Israelis are called upon not to defend their nation.

By who?

Are you really going to try to twist what I've posted into THAT?

That would be very dishonest.

By the Obama Administration, which demanded a unilateral "humanitarian" cease fire. By others.

 

[Peach]

Yup. If Isreal surrendered tomorrow they would all be dead within two days.

If Hamas surrendered there would be peace.

Yes, but only Israelis are called upon not to defend their nation.

By who?

Are you really going to try to twist what I've posted into THAT?

That would be very dishonest.

I was agreeing with Claudette, not disputing you.

 

[nodoginnafight]

Yes, but only Israelis are called upon not to defend their nation.

By who?

Are you really going to try to twist what I've posted into THAT?

That would be very dishonest.

I was agreeing with Claudette, not disputing you.

Thanks, sorry.

 

[Daniyel]

"Battle lines are being drawn .... and nobody's right if everybody's wrong."
- Stephen Stills

The actions and tactics of the Arab terrorists who are hellbent on the destruction of Israel are indefensible.

But Israel is not without blame. They have the intelligence and military capability to be much more selective in their retaliations.

Mossad, Kidon, AMAN, Shin Bet have a long list of impressive successes in which targets were effectively (and surgically) removed. They have had someone set backs (such as the Lillehammer Affair), but they have saved many lives as well. (Some links will follow).

Israel can't claim that indiscriminate killing is the only way. We've seen much better out of the Israelis many, many times.

The Arabs have been guilty of far worse. But two wrongs don't make a right.

In case some of you have been living under a rock for the last 50 years or so ... here are some links to support the capabilities of the Israelis to selectively target bad guys.

The Mossad method - The Week

Mossad's hidden successes against Iran so far | National Review Online

Operations conducted by the Mossad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Special: Mossad took photos, Entebbe Operation was on its way - Israel News, Ynetnews

Intelligence During the Six-Day War (1967) | Jewish Virtual Library

The Shin Bet?s success | JPost | Israel News

Maybe you are talking about Sayeret Rimon commando..
Anyway, you want to go to Gaza where at least 50% of the population is hostile and armed terrorists (about 50,000) patrolling in the streets, people suspected for 'collaborating' with Israel usually end up tied up to motorcycle and dragged in the street just to kill one Hamas scumbag? I bet you don't, that's why so many operations carried by airstrikes and naval bombardments-no unnecessary risk to the soldiers.
However, the intelligence is one of the reason casualties are so low considering the area and demographics, and of course the number of assaults.
About the Mossad - these brave man are busy all over the world, Gaza is the tip of the iceberg.
The ground operation was inevitable, sooner or later the tunnel system issue would've been exploding in our face, ironically.
Now..Military - Israel standing in a point where its only a question of politics with two options opened.
1.Take over all Gaza and eradicate Hamas.
2.Leave Gaza and end the operation.
Acting surgically is the best safe solution, but you heard the bullshit, even when known terrorist die due to these [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6U2ZQ0EhN4"]assassinations[/ame] people complain, and imagine the efforts for single assassination.
Without entering Gaza terrorists will simply come again and again, keep launching missiles, keep attempting to infiltrate, keep assaulting Israel and incite for terror..you can't deal with it just by airstrikes.

 

[Lipush]

"Battle lines are being drawn .... and nobody's right if everybody's wrong."
- Stephen Stills

The actions and tactics of the Arab terrorists who are hellbent on the destruction of Israel are indefensible.

But Israel is not without blame. They have the intelligence and military capability to be much more selective in their retaliations.

Mossad, Kidon, AMAN, Shin Bet have a long list of impressive successes in which targets were effectively (and surgically) removed. They have had someone set backs (such as the Lillehammer Affair), but they have saved many lives as well. (Some links will follow).

Israel can't claim that indiscriminate killing is the only way. We've seen much better out of the Israelis many, many times.

The Arabs have been guilty of far worse. But two wrongs don't make a right.

In case some of you have been living under a rock for the last 50 years or so ... here are some links to support the capabilities of the Israelis to selectively target bad guys.

The Mossad method - The Week

Mossad's hidden successes against Iran so far | National Review Online

Operations conducted by the Mossad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Special: Mossad took photos, Entebbe Operation was on its way - Israel News, Ynetnews

Intelligence During the Six-Day War (1967) | Jewish Virtual Library

The Shin Bet?s success | JPost | Israel News

What will be the cost of such a thing? How many Israeli innocents will be killed because of such "selective" targeting?

 

[Lipush]

Far fewer Palestinian civilians would die if the terrorists would stop hiding among them.

I agree

And far fewer Arab civilians would die if Israel used the approach outlined in the links above. Israel can't control what the Arabs do - they CAN control what THEY do.

In the last week more than twice Israel decided to cease the fire for humanitarian needs. Each and evey time Israel did so, Israelis were killed in that so called ceasefires when Hamas decided they are too proud to respect them.

Now I'm no prime minister, but after the second time that happens, I wonder what should be the reasons and why should anyone agree to bury anyone for the third time?

 

[Lipush]

You don't have to work too hard to find ways that Israel has contributed to the escalation of violence.

You also don't have to look too hard to find the source.

Yes, I can see how the unilateral humanitarian ceasefires have added to the aggression. They received warning.

And what good did the warning do? Where could they go to get out of harms way?

Warning someone that you are going to kill them is not amazingly generous.

Killing the RIGHT PEOPLE is better.

The RIGHT PEOPLE are hiding behind their WIFES and BABIES.

about a week ago, innocent Palestinian civilians went out to protest, asking "why does hamas use our houses for rockets storaging? The Zionists bomb our houses and kill our families because of it!"

They protested Hamas' policy of using their houses as defense. Guess what happened to them? They were shot dead. ALL those who protested. many others who thought of doing so were suddenly forced to say they support the "resistance" no matter the cost.

Hamas' people hide beneath hospitals and schools. So how can you bomb the RIGHT people without hurting the rest?

 

[martybegan]

And what good did the warning do? Where could they go to get out of harms way?

Warning someone that you are going to kill them is not amazingly generous.

Killing the RIGHT PEOPLE is better.

I'm not crying over it - the Arabs have done worse.
But two wrongs don't make a right.

Israel doesn't get much credit internationally when they take the high road. There are folks who are going to criticize and hate them no matter what they do.

But Israel shouldn't use that as an excuse to stop trying.

Israel stopped trying to limit civilian casualties? When?

No - imho - I don't think they have stopped trying completely, I just know they can do a lot better.

In theory, yes, In practice, you get to the point where you put your own side at too much risk by trying to mitigate the risk for the other side, the other side that intentionally puts civilians in harms way to score media points.

War means fighting, and fighting means killing, and what you have in Gaza now is a war.

 

[The Rabbi]

Again, whatever Israel can do to minimize civilian casualties is dwarfed by what Hamas can do. Why aren't people focusing on that? Where is the criticism for Hamas?

 

[bendog]

Again, whatever Israel can do to minimize civilian casualties is dwarfed by what Hamas can do. Why aren't people focusing on that? Where is the criticism for Hamas?

Hamas is a terrorist organization. I'm not sure the IDF really can minimize casualties when it responds to rockets with artillery. But IF the goal is to demilitarize Gaza, Israel cannot do so unilaterally ... unless it intends to reoccupy gaza and endure a terror campaign on Hamas' home turf. Rather, it will need international cooperation. And, I suspect the civilian casualty count has passed the point of that being achievable.

 

[The Rabbi]

Again, whatever Israel can do to minimize civilian casualties is dwarfed by what Hamas can do. Why aren't people focusing on that? Where is the criticism for Hamas?

Hamas is a terrorist organization. I'm not sure the IDF really can minimize casualties when it responds to rockets with artillery. But IF the goal is to demilitarize Gaza, Israel cannot do so unilaterally ... unless it intends to reoccupy gaza and endure a terror campaign on Hamas' home turf. Rather, it will need international cooperation. And, I suspect the civilian casualty count has passed the point of that being achievable.

It can certainly degrade Hamas capability for a long time to come. But just because Hamas is a terrorist org doesnt mean people cant call for them to stop sacrificing civilians.

 

[RandallFlagg]

Again, whatever Israel can do to minimize civilian casualties is dwarfed by what Hamas can do. Why aren't people focusing on that? Where is the criticism for Hamas?

Simple. The Nazi Left in this country has been turned into the good little Brownshirts that we always knew they were. Their glorious leader has instructed them to come out against Israel and they have complied - not to mention the fact that they have (for the most part) always been anti-Semitic from the get go.

I have to admit that when this vitriol started - I was shocked. I never knew that the left was such bigots when it came to Israel and jews. I mean I always knew (growing up black) that liberals were bigots, but I never expected this hatred against Israel. It really shocked me..

I guess the Bible was correct.......

 

[RandallFlagg]

Again, whatever Israel can do to minimize civilian casualties is dwarfed by what Hamas can do. Why aren't people focusing on that? Where is the criticism for Hamas?

Hamas is a terrorist organization. I'm not sure the IDF really can minimize casualties when it responds to rockets with artillery. But IF the goal is to demilitarize Gaza, Israel cannot do so unilaterally ... unless it intends to reoccupy gaza and endure a terror campaign on Hamas' home turf. Rather, it will need international cooperation. And, I suspect the civilian casualty count has passed the point of that being achievable.

It can certainly degrade Hamas capability for a long time to come. But just because Hamas is a terrorist org doesnt mean people cant call for them to stop sacrificing civilians.

Unfortunately, as I have stated in other posts, there is only one way to deal with these people. That is to treat them like mad dogs and wipe them out. It's either that, or eventually, they will destroy you. Same with these other terrorist. They MUST be dealt with or we will face the consequences.

 

[irosie91]

I wish to go on record here--------I served in the navy (well----actually having nothing to do with
anything related to fighting or even ships)----HOWEVER I did hear stories------I honestly believe
that there is almost no way for a guy in a plane with bombs to avoid killing civiilians on the
ground------the only thing they can do is warn people to leave ahead of time IF there is
an ahead of time. If there is ---"bomb" fire-------the guy in the plane is supposed to drop
a bomb on it. If there is a predetermined target ----the guy in the plane has a mission to drop
a bomb on it. -----If the ENEMY provides "information----we are BEACEFUL arrrrabbs "---
the guy giving out orders to the guy in the plane need not believe it. So far------I fail to see how
anyone can come to any conclusion whatsoever------re "war crime" inflicted on gaza

 

[Indeependent]

I wish to go on record here--------I served in the navy (well----actually having nothing to do with
anything related to fighting or even ships)----HOWEVER I did hear stories------I honestly believe
that there is almost no way for a guy in a plane with bombs to avoid killing civiilians on the
ground------the only thing they can do is warn people to leave ahead of time IF there is
an ahead of time. If there is ---"bomb" fire-------the guy in the plane is supposed to drop
a bomb on it. If there is a predetermined target ----the guy in the plane has a mission to drop
a bomb on it. -----If the ENEMY provides "information----we are BEACEFUL arrrrabbs "---
the guy giving out orders to the guy in the plane need not believe it. So far------I fail to see how
anyone can come to any conclusion whatsoever------re "war crime" inflicted on gaza

In a way, it's a compliment...
"Hey Jew, you KNOW you can do better than that!"

 

[RandallFlagg]

I wish to go on record here--------I served in the navy (well----actually having nothing to do with
anything related to fighting or even ships)----HOWEVER I did hear stories------I honestly believe
that there is almost no way for a guy in a plane with bombs to avoid killing civiilians on the
ground------the only thing they can do is warn people to leave ahead of time IF there is
an ahead of time. If there is ---"bomb" fire-------the guy in the plane is supposed to drop
a bomb on it. If there is a predetermined target ----the guy in the plane has a mission to drop
a bomb on it. -----If the ENEMY provides "information----we are BEACEFUL arrrrabbs "---
the guy giving out orders to the guy in the plane need not believe it. So far------I fail to see how
anyone can come to any conclusion whatsoever------re "war crime" inflicted on gaza

I served on the ground in Viet Nam (Infantry) and you are correct. Whether it be a "dumb" munition (as in an unguided bomb) or a "smart" munition (as in guided - by laser or wire) there is no way NOT to inflict civilian causalities.

The people in the Gaza Strip were warned REPEATEDLY over a period of 6 weeks to get OUT of the area. Most complied. The problem is that these terrorists (that the left loves SO dearly) are using civilians as human shields - they are hiding their Katusha rockets in schools, Mosques and hospitals, where civilians congregate.

Yet the Nazi left in America blame Israel when civilians are regrettably killed. Tough shit.

I have been in the vicinity of carpet bombing by B-52s. A mile away and I thought my guts were going to come out of my body. Never again. The military tells me to leave - I'm gone.

Make no mistake about it. The BAD GUYS here are the Animals from Hamas.

 

[The Rabbi]

I wish to go on record here--------I served in the navy (well----actually having nothing to do with
anything related to fighting or even ships)----HOWEVER I did hear stories------I honestly believe
that there is almost no way for a guy in a plane with bombs to avoid killing civiilians on the
ground------the only thing they can do is warn people to leave ahead of time IF there is
an ahead of time. If there is ---"bomb" fire-------the guy in the plane is supposed to drop
a bomb on it. If there is a predetermined target ----the guy in the plane has a mission to drop
a bomb on it. -----If the ENEMY provides "information----we are BEACEFUL arrrrabbs "---
the guy giving out orders to the guy in the plane need not believe it. So far------I fail to see how
anyone can come to any conclusion whatsoever------re "war crime" inflicted on gaza

I served on the ground in Viet Nam (Infantry) and you are correct. Whether it be a "dumb" munition (as in an unguided bomb) or a "smart" munition (as in guided - by laser or wire) there is no way NOT to inflict civilian causalities.

The people in the Gaza Strip were warned REPEATEDLY over a period of 6 weeks to get OUT of the area. Most complied. The problem is that these terrorists (that the left loves SO dearly) are using civilians as human shields - they are hiding their Katusha rockets in schools, Mosques and hospitals, where civilians congregate.

Yet the Nazi left in America blame Israel when civilians are regrettably killed. Tough shit.

I have been in the vicinity of carpet bombing by B-52s. A mile away and I thought my guts were going to come out of my body. Never again. The military tells me to leave - I'm gone.

Make no mistake about it. The BAD GUYS here are the Animals from Hamas.

If the VC or NVA (depending on when and where you were) were using a village as a base, how long until soldiers came and destroyed the place, or it was bombed?