Israel dismisses 2 officers over deadly drone strikes on aid workers in Gaza

[Weatherman2020]

My view is that Israel has been cavelier in regards to civilians in Gaza. What it has done has been largely a product of intense pressure from its allies. They’ve been willing to accept extremely high rates of “collateral” damage just to get a relatively low level target. In comparison with other urban conflicts, the civilian casualty rates in just 6 months far exceed those of other conflicts in a year. Look at the most recent push into Rafah…they no plan for what to do with the millions of civilians they had pushed southward who were now concentrated in Rafah. None. What finally emerged seems half baked and came out only under pressure from its strongest allies. In this regard, Israel is not being held to a unique standard, it is the same standard any country should be held to.

Since you and your fellow Jew haters are so worried about innocents, explain why none of you are demanding Hamas surrender and release the kidnapped prisoners they haven’t murdered yet.

 

[Lisa558]

Israel only reports militants killed. The Gaza ministry reports both (unseperated). I consider them equally reliable or unreliable.

First, it‘s spelled separated - with an “A.“ It’s a common mistake.

Second, you think Israel is as untrustworthy as Islamic terrorists? You’re drawing a parallel between Jews and savages.

 

[Shusha]

Sure.

https://www.axios.com/2023/11/27/gaza-civilian-deaths-israel-conflict-zones

Summary opinion piece, not a fact check.

 

[Lisa558]

Since you and your fellow Jew haters are so worried about innocents, explain why none of you are demanding Hamas surrender and release the kidnapped prisoners they haven’t murdered yet.

Shhhhh….we’re supposed to forget about that. When we bring up that the Islamic terrorists are still holding hostages and doing Gd-knows-what to them, it makes it hard for antisemites to draw a parallel between the Jews of Israel and the barbarians of HAMAS.

 

[toomuchtime_]

My view is that Israel has been cavelier in regards to civilians in Gaza. What it has done has been largely a product of intense pressure from its allies. They’ve been willing to accept extremely high rates of “collateral” damage just to get a relatively low level target. In comparison with other urban conflicts, the civilian casualty rates in just 6 months far exceed those of other conflicts in a year. Look at the most recent push into Rafah…they no plan for what to do with the millions of civilians they had pushed southward who were now concentrated in Rafah. None. What finally emerged seems half baked and came out only under pressure from its strongest allies. In this regard, Israel is not being held to a unique standard, it is the same standard any country should be held to.

Again, not a single word of truth in your post.

Israel has meticulously followed International Humanitarian Law from the first day of war, meaning no Israeli general can order a strike on any target that may involve civilian casualties unless IDF lawyers certify it is in compliance with IHL. No other country, including the US, has ever followed IHL as carefully as Israel has. Because Israel has been following IHL so carefully, the number of civilian casualties has been held to the minimum possible to achieve the objective of destroying Hamas and the other terrorists.

As for Rafah, the Biden administration is simply lying when it says Israel has not presented it with a plan to take Rafah. Israel has stated that the ground operation into Rafah will not begin until the civilians have been evacuated and has laid out maps of spaces to which they will be evacuated and the corridors the IDF will establish so they can go there. Now the Biden people have been forced to change their story from there are no plans to claims they are not detailed enough or they are not viable because not enough aid can be provided to sustain the evacuated Palestinians, but day by day there are huge increases in the amount of aid arriving in Gaza, so there is no rational basis for concluding not enough aid will be available.

 

[Lisa558]

Summary opinion piece, not a fact check.

Also…..it’s from Axios. If you get my drift….

 

[Coyote]

Yep. I get that you feel that way, I'm looking for some support for that view.

shrug

9 month campaign in Mosul to root out ISIS resulted in 9-11,000 civilian casualties.

According to Israel, as of the end of February, they had killed between 9,000 and 11,000 Hamas fighters.

At that time, the total death toll had exceeded 30,000.

So, if we take the figures at face value, subtract fighters from the total, you have between 19,000-21,000 civilians killed in 5 months compared to Mosul in 9 months.

Shrug. Mayb

I'm not convinced that this is true, but assuming I accept it for the sake of this argument... There are fundamental complications in this particular war which affect the civilian casualty rates. Yes? Examples: use of children as active participants in the hostilities; widespread placement of military objectives in the vicinity of protected places; active prevention by third parties to allow evacuation to a safe location; underground infrastructure; holding of civilian hostages; certain religious beliefs. These are unique to the situation in Gaza. Yes?

Is that unique? Do you truly think ISIS did not use child soldiers…or place its military objectives among civilians? Holding hostages? Religious beliefs? Preventing civilians from leaving?

These are NOT unique to Gaza by any means.

 

[Coyote]

Again, not a single word of truth in your post.

Israel has meticulously followed International Humanitarian Law from the first day of war, meaning no Israeli general can order a strike on any target that may involve civilian casualties unless IDF lawyers certify it is in compliance with IHL. No other country, including the US, has ever followed IHL as carefully as Israel has. Because Israel has been following IHL so carefully, the number of civilian casualties has been held to the minimum possible to achieve the objective of destroying Hamas and the other terrorists.

As for Rafah, the Biden administration is simply lying when it says Israel has not presented it with a plan to take Rafah. Israel has stated that the ground operation into Rafah will not begin until the civilians have been evacuated and has laid out maps of spaces to which they will be evacuated and the corridors the IDF will establish so they can go there. Now the Biden people have been forced to change their story from there are no plans to claims they are not detailed enough or they are not viable because not enough aid can be provided to sustain the evacuated Palestinians, but day by day there are huge increases in the amount of aid arriving in Gaza, so there is no rational basis for concluding not enough aid will be available.

Israel had no plan for Rafah until international pressure made it unavoidable.


Biden administration never changed anything. From the start it was a request for a credible plan. Period. Stop lying.

 

[Coyote]

Axios is quite liberal. Here’s another source that reports on the unreliability of the HAMAS reports. (And remember….these deaths are on HAMAS. They could return the hostages and surrender tonight. Any normal people would.)

Gaza Fatality Data Has Become Completely Unreliable

Given the discrepancies in official Palestinian counts and their growing reliance on questionable data from media reports, the credibility gaps revealed by a previous Washington Institute study have become yawning chasms.

www.washingtoninstitute.org

And here is another source on the reliability/unreliability of the figures.

 

[Coyote]

Summary opinion piece, not a fact check.

It links to other sources.

 

[Coyote]

Shhhhh….we’re supposed to forget about that. When we bring up that the Islamic terrorists are still holding hostages and doing Gd-knows-what to them, it makes it hard for antisemites to draw a parallel between the Jews of Israel and the barbarians of HAMAS.

As it is coming from a well known racist, I’ll take your opinion with the consideration it deserves.

 

[Coyote]

Since you and your fellow Jew haters are so worried about innocents, explain why none of you are demanding Hamas surrender and release the kidnapped prisoners they haven’t murdered yet.

I have stated the hostages should be released unconditionally, period. Why is it so hard for you those who agree with you to quit killing children because you think they are vermin?

 

[Shusha]

It links to other sources.

It links to a lot of other opinion pieces.

 

[Weatherman2020]

Shhhhh….we’re supposed to forget about that. When we bring up that the Islamic terrorists are still holding hostages and doing Gd-knows-what to them, it makes it hard for antisemites to draw a parallel between the Jews of Israel and the barbarians of HAMAS.

The fact no Democrat- Biden on down - is demanding Hamas surrender and release their victims says it all.

 

[Weatherman2020]

I have stated the hostages should be released unconditionally, period. Why is it so hard for you those who agree with you to quit killing children because you think they are vermin?

Thanks for confirming you refuse to demand the mass murdering terrorists surrender unconditionally.

 

[Shusha]

shrug

9 month campaign in Mosul to root out ISIS resulted in 9-11,000 civilian casualties.

According to Israel, as of the end of February, they had killed between 9,000 and 11,000 Hamas fighters.

At that time, the total death toll had exceeded 30,000.

So, if we take the figures at face value, subtract fighters from the total, you have between 19,000-21,000 civilians killed in 5 months compared to Mosul in 9 months.




Is that unique? Do you truly think ISIS did not use child soldiers…or place its military objectives among civilians? Holding hostages? Religious beliefs? Preventing civilians from leaving?

These are NOT unique to Gaza by any means.

So we agree that taking just raw numbers doesn't consider the complicating factors and thus is NOT a good way to judge intent, yes?

 

[Coyote]

First, it‘s spelled separated - with an “A.“ It’s a common mistake.

If you can’t address the argument attack spelling.

Second, you think Israel is as untrustworthy as Islamic terrorists? You’re drawing a parallel between Jews and savages.

I’m not drawing a parallel between Jews and anyone. I am talking about a NATION with its own political and national interests at stake, and its own need to control the narrative. Why should we take their word as gospel when they have been known to lie as well? You make it about Jews when it’s about nations.

 

[Coyote]

Thanks for confirming you refuse to demand the mass murdering terrorists surrender unconditionally.

They should but they won’t. It is not refusal to ignore what obviously will not happen. You can put down your virtue signaling now.

 

[Lisa558]

As it is coming from a well known racist, I’ll take your opinion with the consideration it deserves.

It is inappropriate for a mod to falsely call a poster a “racist” simply because I point out that it is antisemitic to draw a parallel between Israeli Jews and HAMAS terrorists.

 

[Coyote]

So we agree that taking just raw numbers doesn't consider the complicating factors and thus is NOT a good way to judge intent, yes?

It is a good way to way to judge when the complicating factors are similar but the casualty rates significantly disproportionate.