Israel continues to demolish the homes built without permits

[Boston1]

I never looked it up, don't really care. I'm sure its just another slanderous remark against the Judaic people for managing to survive all the bigotry and hatred.

The funny thing is, what other nations would even remotely be questioned over this issue. Concerning who else can you find a random group of people arguing that a sovereign nation doesn't have the right to maintain a system of building codes. And yes that require a permit to build.

Its beyond stupid.

If the US government were complicit in routinely denying permits to and destroying homes of blacks, or hispanics or native americans, while legalizing similar illegal structures for whites in the same area, you can bet they would be questioned and the media would be all over it.

Similar types of discrimination in South Africa was certainly questioned.

The Arab Muslims of Israel aren't very prosperous, they have no one to blame but themselves. If they compromise 20% of the population and can only afford 10% of the permits then it stands to reason they have roughly half the GDP of the average Judaic Israeli.

Which is very much in line with the data

Actually the data shows the Arabs in the west bank earning about 12x what the Israeli's earn. So it only stands to reason they'd by buying less building permits.

If you ever want to succeed, wake up and take responsibility for your own failures.

Affording permits isn't the issue.

Nonsense, Israel is an expensive place to live. Given the economic data its highly unlikely the average Arab Muslim living in Israel can afford permits at the same rate as the average Judaic person.

Its just another instance of the Arabs wanting a free ride out of the Israeli's. Not taking responsibility for their own actions and not stepping up and making something of themselves.

Wallowing in hatred and bigotry is no way to build a home.

If "affordability" is the reason Arab Israeli's and Palestinians aren't ISSUED permits (well...ONE Palestinian permit a year) then please provide a reputable source supporting that claim.

Reread my last few.

Sufficient economic data has been presented to show that the Arabs instead of receiving roughly 10% of the permits should in fact only be able to afford about 1%

Looks to me like the Israeli's are being awfully generous and likely offering discount permits to these people

300 free permits and thousands approved for Arabs in israel

See

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...PBn5CWX9hXTjBdl0Rb3xGQ&bvm=bv.116274245,d.amc

 

[Coyote]

If the US government were complicit in routinely denying permits to and destroying homes of blacks, or hispanics or native americans, while legalizing similar illegal structures for whites in the same area, you can bet they would be questioned and the media would be all over it.

Similar types of discrimination in South Africa was certainly questioned.

The Arab Muslims of Israel aren't very prosperous, they have no one to blame but themselves. If they compromise 20% of the population and can only afford 10% of the permits then it stands to reason they have roughly half the GDP of the average Judaic Israeli.

Which is very much in line with the data

Actually the data shows the Arabs in the west bank earning about 12x what the Israeli's earn. So it only stands to reason they'd by buying less building permits.

If you ever want to succeed, wake up and take responsibility for your own failures.

Affording permits isn't the issue.

Nonsense, Israel is an expensive place to live. Given the economic data its highly unlikely the average Arab Muslim living in Israel can afford permits at the same rate as the average Judaic person.

Its just another instance of the Arabs wanting a free ride out of the Israeli's. Not taking responsibility for their own actions and not stepping up and making something of themselves.

Wallowing in hatred and bigotry is no way to build a home.

If "affordability" is the reason Arab Israeli's and Palestinians aren't ISSUED permits (well...ONE Palestinian permit a year) then please provide a reputable source supporting that claim.

Reread my last few.

Sufficient economic data has been presented to show that the Arabs instead of receiving roughly 10% of the permits should in fact only be able to afford about 1%

You are not showing causation, that the lack of permits (specifically, in the West Bank area) has to do with affordability. The statistics are for permits issued and denied - I would think that means the permit must first be paid for. Jerusalem is a very expensive city. West Bank not so much.

Other permit considerations:
'Israeli Arabs have no choice but to build illegally'

Israel's Arabs are forced to build illegal housing due to the government's refusal to recognize many of their communities as official towns or to grant them permits for legal construction, according to a study released by the Dirasat - Arab Center for Law and Policy.

Partial data from the study indicates that the number of Arabs in Israel has multiplied by seven since the state was established in 1948, but their municipal communities take up only 2.5 percent of state land.

Some 1,000 Jewish settlements have been established since 1948, says the study, but not a single Arab town aside from the seven Bedouin communities consolidated for residents that has previously been scattered across the Negev.​

The article goes back to complex issues of legality, planning documentation, infrastructure, beauracratic obstacles and designations seldom granted to Arab communities. Illegal settlements are not provided with infrastructure. Unless they are Jewish...

Compare the situation for Israeli Arabs to that of Jewish settlers: State Won't Revoke Funding of Illegal West Bank Outpost, Despite AG's Instructions

Over $100,000 was given for infrastructure in Negohot, which has no building permits. ​

Then there is also there policy of retroactively legalizing these illegal outposts. How many illegal Arab communities have been retroactively legalized? How many illegal Arab communities have been provided the necessary infrastructure by the Israeli government?

Looks to me like the Israeli's are being awfully generous and likely offering discount permits to these people

300 free permits and thousands approved for Arabs in israel

See

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0ahUKEwiUpO-5rq_LAhUY32MKHeF4B_8QFggqMAI&url=http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/In-major-victory-to-Arab-residents-2200-homes-approved-in-east-Jerusalem-395731&usg=AFQjCNFGQ0GwVrce6ZcF6Mg1EiIfY9P5vA&sig2=PBn5CWX9hXTjBdl0Rb3xGQ&bvm=bv.116274245,d.amc

[/quote]


Not quite. I am not seeing "generous" here...unless you count their retractive Jewish construction (aka "free permits") for Jewish construction..
Jerusalem - Group: Israel Advances Jewish Settlement Plans In West Bank
...retroactively approve 1,065 housing units in West Bank Jewish settlements

Israel approves 454 new settler homes in occupied East Jerusalem
...Israel retroactively legalized some 800 homes in four settlements in the West Bank, the Interior Ministry confirmed....

However, in Israel's favor I did find one reference to retroactive legalization of illegal Palestinian structures, from 2010: Report: Israel legalized over 1,600 unauthorized Palestinian homes, but I can't find more recent accounts.

The Civil Administration retroactively legalized 1,611 Palestinian structures built without the necessary permits all over the territories in recent years, according to internal documents obtained by Haaretz. ​

This article is from December: Only 7% of Jerusalem building permits go to Palestinian neighborhoods - Israel News
Even when economic factors are considered, there are still problems...

A lawsuit filed by the Beit Safafa Community Council gives some insight into the way the system is stacked against the Arab residents. The suit deals with two building plans for the Givat Hamatos area in southern Jerusalem; one plan is for land owned by the ILA and Jewish owners, while the other plan is for land owned by Arabs.

Both plans were approved by the city at the same time three years ago, but only the plan for Jewish construction was deposited for public comment and is moving forward, while the Arab plan, which would serve to expand Beit Safafa, is stuck. “There is a serious and well-founded concern that the fact this plan was not [advanced] does not stem from relevant or professional reasons, but is linked to political and other irrelevant considerations,” wrote attorney Mohannad Gbara, in the suit he filed on behalf of the community council.​

So. What slander? What libel?

Discrimmination?
Inequity?

 

[Boston1]

Looks like we agree that Israel has given away literally thousands of building permits to Arab Muslims in Israel. Some free, and to people who already built without one.

Thats something that would sure never ever happen around here. Or should I rush on down for my free building permit hmmmmmm, I think I'd like one in Aspen, right by the golf course.


So whats the problem ?

Also there can only be a direct link between how affordable the building permits are vs how many are issued. The city has to gain revenue and cover costs somehow, doesn't it ? Unless of course your talking about all those free ones the Israeli's are giving the Arabs even in the midst of wild accusations of apartheid and racial preference.

Kinda makes me wonder just how many free permits were doled out to Judiac residents. But of course you haven't proven yet that race has anything to do with it.

i'd again ask you to show us the application form for a permit and make special note of it asking for race.

 

[Coyote]

Looks like we agree that Israel has given away literally thousands of building permits to Arab Muslims in Israel. Some free, and to people who already built without one.

Let's actually run through the facts as presented:

• We agree that Israel had given 1600 "free building permits" to Arabs in 2010...and another 300 more recently

• We agree that they've given many thousands more free permits to Jews by legalizing illegal structures, as well as provided funding and infrastructure for their illegal outposts which they refuse to provide to illegal Arab settlements.

• We agree that they've granted the majority of permits asked for by Jews in West Bank...but, in 2014 only one permit was granted to a Palestinian.

• We agree that plans for construction proposed in Jewish Jerusalem neighborhoods are streamlined while those proposed for Arab neighborhoods are stalled.

Thats something that would sure never ever happen around here. Or should I rush on down for my free building permit hmmmmmm, I think I'd like one in Aspen, right by the golf course.

So whats the problem ?

Also there can only be a direct link between how affordable the building permits are vs how many are issued. The city has to gain revenue and cover costs somehow, doesn't it ? Unless of course your talking about all those free ones the Israeli's are giving the Arabs even in the midst of wild accusations of apartheid and racial preference.

Kinda makes me wonder just how many free permits were doled out to Judiac residents. But of course you haven't proven yet that race has anything to do with it.

i'd again ask you to show us the application form for a permit and make special note of it asking for race.

You haven't proven that economics has anything to do with it. Show me a specific piece of paper denying a permit application because it couldn't be paid for....

 

[Boston1]

Well hold on there

Lets look at this

Quote

Let's actually run through the facts as presented:

• We agree that Israel had given 1600 "free building permits" to Arabs in 2010...and another 300 more recently

• We agree that they've given many thousands more free permits to Jews by legalizing illegal structures, as well as provided funding and infrastructure for their illegal outposts which they refuse to provide to illegal Arab settlements.

• We agree that they've granted the majority of permits asked for by Jews in West Bank...but, in 2014 only one permit was granted to a Palestinian.

• We agree that plans for construction proposed in Jewish Jerusalem neighborhoods are streamlined while those proposed for Arab neighborhoods are stalled.

This is correct, no? According to the post from which you cherry picked your info.

End Quote

Fact #1 I'm pretty sure I saw something in there about another 800 since 2010, and I don't recall when the article was written.

Fact #2 I don't recall anything about them giving away free retroactive permits to anyone else although it certainly may have happened in the name of fairness.

Fact #3 I didn't cherrypick by year as you seem to be doing. I was looking at economic numbers for multiple years. Which seemed to strongly support the idea that Arab Muslims simply couldn't afford the building process; rather than there being some form of discrimination involved.

Fact #4 I don't think we ever discussed what building processes were streamlined and what were stalled. If any. What we did discuss was that building permits are expensive and most countries don't just give them away. Yet here's Israel giving permits to the Arabs. While the Arabs are busy kicking and screaming they are being treated unfairly. Just seems ridiculous to me

As for that last lets look at those GDP numbers again and you tell me who can afford to build and who can't

 

[Coyote]

Well hold on there

Lets look at this

Quote

Let's actually run through the facts as presented:

• We agree that Israel had given 1600 "free building permits" to Arabs in 2010...and another 300 more recently

• We agree that they've given many thousands more free permits to Jews by legalizing illegal structures, as well as provided funding and infrastructure for their illegal outposts which they refuse to provide to illegal Arab settlements.

• We agree that they've granted the majority of permits asked for by Jews in West Bank...but, in 2014 only one permit was granted to a Palestinian.

• We agree that plans for construction proposed in Jewish Jerusalem neighborhoods are streamlined while those proposed for Arab neighborhoods are stalled.

This is correct, no? According to the post from which you cherry picked your info.

End Quote

Fact #1 I'm pretty sure I saw something in there about another 800 since 2010, and I don't recall when the article was written.

ok...so we're at a hypothetical high of 2700 over 6 years. We can't quite call it a "fact" since it's unsupported.

Fact #2 I don't recall anything about them giving away free retroactive permits to anyone else although it certainly may have happened in the name of fairness.

Let's clarify for a moment. The so-called 300 free permits mentioned in your article were: "The committee, also on Monday, retroactively approved 300 illegally built Arab homes in the area." In other words, what you are terming "free permits" are retoractive approvals. To be factual the article says nothing about anything being free. Presumably, if the "retroactive approval" process equals "free permits" then surely the thousands of illegal West Bank structures and outposts that were "retroactively approved" over the decades must have included "free permits"

Fact #3 I didn't cherrypick by year as you seem to be doing. I was looking at economic numbers for multiple years. Which seemed to strongly support the idea that Arab Muslims simply couldn't afford the building process; rather than there being some form of discrimination involved.

Cherry-picked referred to what you chose to pick out of my post - you ignored all the other examples of inequities. You pointed out economic factors but, correlation isn't necessarily causation. Show me where it is definitive.

Fact #4 I don't think we ever discussed what building processes were streamlined and what were stalled. If any. What we did discuss was that building permits are expensive and most countries don't just give them away. Yet here's Israel giving permits to the Arabs. While the Arabs are busy kicking and screaming they are being treated unfairly. Just seems ridiculous to me

It was in one the articles I quoted to provide an example.

As for that last lets look at those GDP numbers again and you tell me who can afford to build and who can't

Let's look at that piece of paper that shows permits were denied on the basis of income

 

[Boston1]

Well hold on there

Lets look at this

Quote

Let's actually run through the facts as presented:

• We agree that Israel had given 1600 "free building permits" to Arabs in 2010...and another 300 more recently

• We agree that they've given many thousands more free permits to Jews by legalizing illegal structures, as well as provided funding and infrastructure for their illegal outposts which they refuse to provide to illegal Arab settlements.

• We agree that they've granted the majority of permits asked for by Jews in West Bank...but, in 2014 only one permit was granted to a Palestinian.

• We agree that plans for construction proposed in Jewish Jerusalem neighborhoods are streamlined while those proposed for Arab neighborhoods are stalled.

This is correct, no? According to the post from which you cherry picked your info.

End Quote

Fact #1 I'm pretty sure I saw something in there about another 800 since 2010, and I don't recall when the article was written.

ok...so we're at a hypothetical high of 2700 over 6 years. We can't quite call it a "fact" since it's unsupported.

Fact #2 I don't recall anything about them giving away free retroactive permits to anyone else although it certainly may have happened in the name of fairness.

Let's clarify for a moment. The so-called 300 free permits mentioned in your article were: "The committee, also on Monday, retroactively approved 300 illegally built Arab homes in the area." In other words, what you are terming "free permits" are retoractive approvals. To be factual the article says nothing about anything being free. Presumably, if the "retroactive approval" process equals "free permits" then surely the thousands of illegal West Bank structures and outposts that were "retroactively approved" over the decades must have included "free permits"

Fact #3 I didn't cherrypick by year as you seem to be doing. I was looking at economic numbers for multiple years. Which seemed to strongly support the idea that Arab Muslims simply couldn't afford the building process; rather than there being some form of discrimination involved.

Cherry-picked referred to what you chose to pick out of my post - you ignored all the other examples of inequities. You pointed out economic factors but, correlation isn't necessarily causation. Show me where it is definitive.

Fact #4 I don't think we ever discussed what building processes were streamlined and what were stalled. If any. What we did discuss was that building permits are expensive and most countries don't just give them away. Yet here's Israel giving permits to the Arabs. While the Arabs are busy kicking and screaming they are being treated unfairly. Just seems ridiculous to me

It was in one the articles I quoted to provide an example.

As for that last lets look at those GDP numbers again and you tell me who can afford to build and who can't

Let's look at that piece of paper that shows permits were denied on the basis of income

There's only two segments of that I can respond to

Quote

Cherry-picked referred to what you chose to pick out of my post - you ignored all the other examples of inequities. You pointed out economic factors but, correlation isn't necessarily causation. Show me where it is definitive.

End Quote

No, I just don't chose to respond to every baseless claim. There's a difference.

This claim for instance. Presented a false equivalency of alleged inequities. You suggest without proof that permits are issued according to race. yet no evidence is forthcoming. When we know the penalty is death for an Arab to sell land to an Israeli. Seems like a double standard to complain about not enough building permits being sold to Arab by the Israeli's when the Arabs have laws offering death penalties for other Arabs who sell land to Jews.

Also you ask for paperwork concerning who cant afford a building permit.

Sorry but thats a non starter and you know it. No one keeps track of those saving for a permit who haven't managed to save enough yet.

However I did show economic data which strongly supports the idea that the vast majority of Arabs ( GDP of about $2500 pr yr ) simply can't afford the building process.

I also asked for documentation ( a copy of the building application ) which shows that race is a factor. Shouldn't be that hard. Its a publicly available form. Go do some homework. I wouldn't be asking if I'd already seen it. Might just catch me on that one. Deal is I seriously doubt Israel would be dumb enough to ask that on a form.

 

[Coyote]

Well hold on there

Lets look at this

Quote

Let's actually run through the facts as presented:

• We agree that Israel had given 1600 "free building permits" to Arabs in 2010...and another 300 more recently

• We agree that they've given many thousands more free permits to Jews by legalizing illegal structures, as well as provided funding and infrastructure for their illegal outposts which they refuse to provide to illegal Arab settlements.

• We agree that they've granted the majority of permits asked for by Jews in West Bank...but, in 2014 only one permit was granted to a Palestinian.

• We agree that plans for construction proposed in Jewish Jerusalem neighborhoods are streamlined while those proposed for Arab neighborhoods are stalled.

This is correct, no? According to the post from which you cherry picked your info.

End Quote

Fact #1 I'm pretty sure I saw something in there about another 800 since 2010, and I don't recall when the article was written.

ok...so we're at a hypothetical high of 2700 over 6 years. We can't quite call it a "fact" since it's unsupported.

Fact #2 I don't recall anything about them giving away free retroactive permits to anyone else although it certainly may have happened in the name of fairness.

Let's clarify for a moment. The so-called 300 free permits mentioned in your article were: "The committee, also on Monday, retroactively approved 300 illegally built Arab homes in the area." In other words, what you are terming "free permits" are retoractive approvals. To be factual the article says nothing about anything being free. Presumably, if the "retroactive approval" process equals "free permits" then surely the thousands of illegal West Bank structures and outposts that were "retroactively approved" over the decades must have included "free permits"

Fact #3 I didn't cherrypick by year as you seem to be doing. I was looking at economic numbers for multiple years. Which seemed to strongly support the idea that Arab Muslims simply couldn't afford the building process; rather than there being some form of discrimination involved.

Cherry-picked referred to what you chose to pick out of my post - you ignored all the other examples of inequities. You pointed out economic factors but, correlation isn't necessarily causation. Show me where it is definitive.

Fact #4 I don't think we ever discussed what building processes were streamlined and what were stalled. If any. What we did discuss was that building permits are expensive and most countries don't just give them away. Yet here's Israel giving permits to the Arabs. While the Arabs are busy kicking and screaming they are being treated unfairly. Just seems ridiculous to me

It was in one the articles I quoted to provide an example.

As for that last lets look at those GDP numbers again and you tell me who can afford to build and who can't

Let's look at that piece of paper that shows permits were denied on the basis of income

There's only two segments of that I can respond to

Quote

Cherry-picked referred to what you chose to pick out of my post - you ignored all the other examples of inequities. You pointed out economic factors but, correlation isn't necessarily causation. Show me where it is definitive.

End Quote

No, I just don't chose to respond to every baseless claim. There's a difference.

The difference is, they aren't "baseless" - they are supported with sources.

This claim for instance. Presented a false equivalency of alleged inequities.

False equivalency? That's your favorite buzzword isn't it? You throw it in the pot at every argument.

You suggest without proof that permits are issued according to race. yet no evidence is forthcoming.

Let's look at this statement. You seem to think the only "proof" of racism is a document showing race is a selection criteria.

Here, in the US, even after civil rights laws were inacted, racism still occurred in housing. Community leaders, local government officials, realtors etc. worked together to steer people towards or deter them from living in certain areas. Mortgages for houses in certain neighborhoods would be denied (irrespective of financial capability). A study was done where a black couple and a white couple applied for the same sets of homes with identical financial backing. Can you guess how it played out? No, there were no official documents listing race as a criteria. Did racism occur?

When we know the penalty is death for an Arab to sell land to an Israeli. Seems like a double standard to complain about not enough building permits being sold to Arab by the Israeli's when the Arabs have laws offering death penalties for other Arabs who sell land to Jews.

That is a seperate issue,, your obfuscating. The issue is not one of "not enough building permits" being sold to Arabs. It's one of permits being routinely denied.

Also you ask for paperwork concerning who cant afford a building permit.

Sorry but thats a non starter and you know it. No one keeps track of those saving for a permit who haven't managed to save enough yet.

I'm sure there are records kept of permits granted and permits denied and the reasons why. A person who can afford a permit doesn't even get to that point.

However I did show economic data which strongly supports the idea that the vast majority of Arabs ( GDP of about $2500 pr yr ) simply can't afford the building process.

And I provided articles showing that most permits submitted by Palestinians and Arab Israeli's are denied while permits by Jewish Israeli's are approved. In addition - if the majority of Arabs can't afford the process - they don't submit permits, so while that might account for some of the illegal construction it does not account for the denial of permits.

I also asked for documentation ( a copy of the building application ) which shows that race is a factor. Shouldn't be that hard. Its a publicly available form. Go do some homework. I wouldn't be asking if I'd already seen it. Might just catch me on that one. Deal is I seriously doubt Israel would be dumb enough to ask that on a form.

See above, where it concerns racism. Otherwise - show me documentation that indicates economics are a factor in permit denial.

 

[Boston1]

So you don't think its a false equivalence to compare the death penalty for selling land to Jews in Arab lands VS Israel not issuing enough permits to Arabs in Israel ?

Lets just clear that one up first and then we can move on

 

[Coyote]

So you don't think its a false equivalence to compare the death penalty for selling land to Jews in Arab lands VS Israel not issuing enough permits to Arabs in Israel ?

Lets just clear that one up first and then we can move on

I think it's two seperate issues.

 

[Boston1]

So you don't think its a false equivalence to compare the death penalty for selling land to Jews in Arab lands VS Israel not issuing enough permits to Arabs in Israel ?

Lets just clear that one up first and then we can move on

I think it's two seperate issues.

Nonsense

You think its a tragedy when you make the claim ( unsubstantiated ) that the Israeli's are not selling enough building permits to Arab Muslims living in Israel.

But you refuse to acknowledge that the penalty for an Arab Muslim who sells land to a Jew is death.

Seems like you're not playing very fair.

Even if your claim is true, and you've offered not a shred of evidence to suggest anything but economic reasons for there not being perfect parity across racial lines. Your still playing the false equivalency game.

One side kills its own for selling land to a particular racial group.

The other merely ( according to you ) not selling enough building permits.

Massive false equivalency

The complaint against Israel, even if it is true, pails in comparison to the injustice done to Israel.

 

[Shusha]

It seems to me we should be careful in this conversation to differentiate between "the West Bank" and Area C (especially those parts of Area C which Israel intends to keep in a peace agreement) and between Palestinians and Israeli Arab citizens.

 

[Boston1]

Its convoluted thats for sure. But its all Israel beyond the western half of the Jordan. Its clear in the Mandate and the Jordan Memorandum.

I can't picture Israel making any better offers than they already have. Or ever offering anything as good as the Arab Muslims already turned down.

But all that aside. There do seem to be differences between the various areas of Israel.

But its such a pain in the ass trying to keep all the political nonsense straight.

Seems like Israel is just playing the game set up by the 58 Arab states who just met with Abbas

Muslim body urges ban on products from Israeli settlements

You know my take is to apply the Geneva Conventions to the letter.

In any case we're still working on this false equivalency where on the one hand we have some lame complaint that Israel isn't issuing enough building permits to Arabs VS Arab laws which mandate the death penalty for any Arab selling land to a jew.

Sorry but if you want to discuss land use laws on one side we're going to have to consider them equally between both sides.

 

[Coyote]

So you don't think its a false equivalence to compare the death penalty for selling land to Jews in Arab lands VS Israel not issuing enough permits to Arabs in Israel ?

Lets just clear that one up first and then we can move on

I think it's two seperate issues.

Nonsense

You think its a tragedy when you make the claim ( unsubstantiated ) that the Israeli's are not selling enough building permits to Arab Muslims living in Israel.

You seem to have comprehension issues. You are the one making the (unsubtantiated) claim that "Israeli's are not selling enough building permits to Arab Muslims living in Israel".

As long as that is what you claiming, we really can't go any further on this because it is your position, not mine even though I've clarified my stance at least once.

But you refuse to acknowledge that the penalty for an Arab Muslim who sells land to a Jew is death.

Nothing to do with acknowledging - you're trying to deflect from the topic.

Seems like you're not playing very fair.

I'm playing every bit as fair as you are

Even if your claim is true, and you've offered not a shred of evidence to suggest anything but economic reasons for there not being perfect parity across racial lines. Your still playing the false equivalency game.

I've offered considerably more evidence than you have.

One side kills its own for selling land to a particular racial group.

The other merely ( according to you ) not selling enough building permits.

Which has what do do with the price of tea in China?

We're talking about the permit process in Israel, not what occurs elsewhere.

Massive false equivalency

Massive deflection.

The complaint against Israel, even if it is true, pails in comparison to the injustice done to Israel.

Translation: Because Israel endured great injustice it has a right to commit a great injustice on others.

What an ethical stance that is.

 

[Boston1]

So you don't think its a false equivalence to compare the death penalty for selling land to Jews in Arab lands VS Israel not issuing enough permits to Arabs in Israel ?

Lets just clear that one up first and then we can move on

I think it's two seperate issues.

Nonsense

You think its a tragedy when you make the claim ( unsubstantiated ) that the Israeli's are not selling enough building permits to Arab Muslims living in Israel.

You seem to have comprehension issues. You are the one making the (unsubtantiated) claim that "Israeli's are not selling enough building permits to Arab Muslims living in Israel".

As long as that is what you claiming, we really can't go any further on this because it is your position, not mine even though I've clarified my stance at least once.

But you refuse to acknowledge that the penalty for an Arab Muslim who sells land to a Jew is death.

Nothing to do with acknowledging - you're trying to deflect from the topic.

Seems like you're not playing very fair.

I'm playing every bit as fair as you are

Even if your claim is true, and you've offered not a shred of evidence to suggest anything but economic reasons for there not being perfect parity across racial lines. Your still playing the false equivalency game.

I've offered considerably more evidence than you have.

One side kills its own for selling land to a particular racial group.

The other merely ( according to you ) not selling enough building permits.

Which has what do do with the price of tea in China?

We're talking about the permit process in Israel, not what occurs elsewhere.

Massive false equivalency

Massive deflection.

The complaint against Israel, even if it is true, pails in comparison to the injustice done to Israel.

Translation: Because Israel endured great injustice it has a right to commit a great injustice on others.

What an ethical stance that is.

You've lost it if you think i'm saying the Israeli's aren't selling enough building permits to the Arabs. If anything they are giving away as well as selling far to many, and should put a stop to all Arab building until the violence stops.

As far as I'm concerned they should stop pandering to Arab sniveling and employ the Geneva Conventions to the letter. Would eliminate the vast majority of the problem by removing all Arab combatants and their descendants from the equation.

 

[Coyote]

So you don't think its a false equivalence to compare the death penalty for selling land to Jews in Arab lands VS Israel not issuing enough permits to Arabs in Israel ?

Lets just clear that one up first and then we can move on

I think it's two seperate issues.

Nonsense

You think its a tragedy when you make the claim ( unsubstantiated ) that the Israeli's are not selling enough building permits to Arab Muslims living in Israel.

You seem to have comprehension issues. You are the one making the (unsubtantiated) claim that "Israeli's are not selling enough building permits to Arab Muslims living in Israel".

As long as that is what you claiming, we really can't go any further on this because it is your position, not mine even though I've clarified my stance at least once.

But you refuse to acknowledge that the penalty for an Arab Muslim who sells land to a Jew is death.

Nothing to do with acknowledging - you're trying to deflect from the topic.

Seems like you're not playing very fair.

I'm playing every bit as fair as you are

Even if your claim is true, and you've offered not a shred of evidence to suggest anything but economic reasons for there not being perfect parity across racial lines. Your still playing the false equivalency game.

I've offered considerably more evidence than you have.

One side kills its own for selling land to a particular racial group.

The other merely ( according to you ) not selling enough building permits.

Which has what do do with the price of tea in China?

We're talking about the permit process in Israel, not what occurs elsewhere.

Massive false equivalency

Massive deflection.

The complaint against Israel, even if it is true, pails in comparison to the injustice done to Israel.

Translation: Because Israel endured great injustice it has a right to commit a great injustice on others.

What an ethical stance that is.

You've lost it if you think i'm saying the Israeli's aren't selling enough building permits to the Arabs. If anything they are giving away as well as selling far to many, and should put a stop to all Arab building until the violence stops.

As far as I'm concerned they should stop pandering to Arab sniveling and employ the Geneva Conventions to the letter. Would eliminate the vast majority of the problem by removing all Arab combatants and their descendants from the equation.

The only conclusion I come up with is that a) you can't prove there is no discrimmination or inequality and b) you have no problem with discrimmination and inequality as long as it's only directed at certain groups of people.

How exactly, in a democratic society, would halt all construction for Arab Israeli citizens but allow construction for Jewish Israeli citizens while maintaining a democratic system?

 

[Coyote]

I'm sure it's just another slanderous remark against the Judaic people

You should look stuff up before making yourself look like an idiot AGAIN!

It's a Hebrew word used by the Israeli government!

Which word are you talking about? I can translate.

הַסְבָּרָה‎

A slanderous remark apparently...

There really are some crazies out there in cyberland!

Fortunately, those educated among us can carry out a little translation in Hebrew!

Hasbara means "public relations". When I was in Bar-Ilan from 1982-1983, I would get together with 4 or 5 friends once a week for an informal Hasbara class. At that time the biggest stain on Israel's image was the Sabra and Shatilla massacre. We wanted to get the word out that Jews should not be blamed when Gentiles kill Gentiles. It was only later, when I entered this Board, that I learned that Hasbara was, somehow, a dirty word.

I never heard it before coming to this board, and here I've only seen it used as a perjorative which is what I assumed it was. My intent was to use it as a perjorative in response to a perjorative post. Interesting how words get turned around like that. Zionism seems to get misused in the same way.

 

[Boston1]

So you don't think its a false equivalence to compare the death penalty for selling land to Jews in Arab lands VS Israel not issuing enough permits to Arabs in Israel ?

Lets just clear that one up first and then we can move on

I think it's two seperate issues.

Nonsense

You think its a tragedy when you make the claim ( unsubstantiated ) that the Israeli's are not selling enough building permits to Arab Muslims living in Israel.

You seem to have comprehension issues. You are the one making the (unsubtantiated) claim that "Israeli's are not selling enough building permits to Arab Muslims living in Israel".

As long as that is what you claiming, we really can't go any further on this because it is your position, not mine even though I've clarified my stance at least once.

But you refuse to acknowledge that the penalty for an Arab Muslim who sells land to a Jew is death.

Nothing to do with acknowledging - you're trying to deflect from the topic.

Seems like you're not playing very fair.

I'm playing every bit as fair as you are

Even if your claim is true, and you've offered not a shred of evidence to suggest anything but economic reasons for there not being perfect parity across racial lines. Your still playing the false equivalency game.

I've offered considerably more evidence than you have.

One side kills its own for selling land to a particular racial group.

The other merely ( according to you ) not selling enough building permits.

Which has what do do with the price of tea in China?

We're talking about the permit process in Israel, not what occurs elsewhere.

Massive false equivalency

Massive deflection.

The complaint against Israel, even if it is true, pails in comparison to the injustice done to Israel.

Translation: Because Israel endured great injustice it has a right to commit a great injustice on others.

What an ethical stance that is.

You've lost it if you think i'm saying the Israeli's aren't selling enough building permits to the Arabs. If anything they are giving away as well as selling far to many, and should put a stop to all Arab building until the violence stops.

As far as I'm concerned they should stop pandering to Arab sniveling and employ the Geneva Conventions to the letter. Would eliminate the vast majority of the problem by removing all Arab combatants and their descendants from the equation.

The only conclusion I come up with is that a) you can't prove there is no discrimmination or inequality and b) you have no problem with discrimmination and inequality as long as it's only directed at certain groups of people.

How exactly, in a democratic society, would halt all construction for Arab Israeli citizens but allow construction for Jewish Israeli citizens while maintaining a democratic system?

You are desperate to redirect this discussion away from your claim that there is a racial bias in the issuance of building permits.

You've refused again and again to prove it by showing us on a building application where it asks for race

Looks like your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on and when confronted with the economic realities. That the Arab Muslims can't afford building permits you adamantly refuse to even consider it.

But this imaginary race card you just can't let go of

Odd how that works isn't it ?

 

[Coyote]

That is why I put it in "quotes" Dogma, but nuance has never been your strong point. Your use of "good people" to define bigots who think terms like "antifada" and "Islamonazi" are just peachy is amusing but not surprising.

It's always cute when you try to pass off your antisemitic double talk as "nuance". It isn't nuance, but just your usual crap.

Your attempted turnspeak is just as obvious. You try to characterize those who DON'T share your ethnic hatred as the bigots. It's just more typical projection from your revolting ilk.

I'm curious, though, about how you came about your hatred of Jews? Was this instilled in you from an early age? Is it merely the product of your hillbilly environment growing up, or did it develop after your exposure to hate sites on the internet?

The reason I ask, is that I grew up way out in the sticks, myself, but NOBODY I knew growing up was antisemitic. Perhaps it was just being sooner after the Holocaust than you, but people knew Nazis were evil then and didn't consider mass murder of Jews to be heroic like you do.

I wasn't exposed to Jewish people as a kid, probably much like you in that regard, but when I went to a University (questionable for you) and got out to see the world a little bit, I became friends with MANY Jewish people. To a person, they were all warmhearted, liberal (much unlike you in that regard) and very forward thinking. Maybe it's just that you have never gone outside those back woods of west Virginnie, but maybe if you met a few Jewish people, you would stop thinking those who want they genocide as the good guys.

They aren't, and neither are you for supporting them.

You really don't know much, but assume a lot don't you? I live in WV, which is a wonderful state with beautiful wilderness areas and maybe you should visit it before you make fun of it. I did not grow up there however. I grew up in India, in France, and in suburban US. My childhood friends were multi-ethnic and of different religions as is my own family, which includes Jewish cousins, Morman cousins and Unitarians, athiests and Russian Orthodox. I didn't, and still don't, know the religions of many of my friends because it never entered into the friendship equation when we were kids. I don't label my friends by religion or ethnicity. They aren't Jewish friends. Black friends. Christian friends, etc. To be honest, when I hear someone say something like "To a person, they were all warmhearted, liberal (much unlike you in that regard) and very forward thinking" all I can think of is - how patronizing, kind of like someone who claims "some of my best friends are xyz ethnicity" and who then proceeds to say how wonderful they all are in a broadbrushing way that makes you wonder what they are covering up. We are human beings, and every group of human beings is a group of individuals with all their individual strengths and failings. Who are you to broadbrush them into non-existance? I've met Jewish people who are funny, sharp, compassionate and kind...I've met one person who is the most self-centered SOB I've ever met..all in all, ordinary people. Kind of like the Christians I've met. And the Mormans I've met. They defy the stereotypes and labels that people like you try to attach to them. But labeling makes it easier to just hate isn't it? It takes a lot more effort from a lazy mind, to view them individually and appreciate them individually. Like West Virginia...and seeing beyond stereotypes.

 

[Phoenall]

So why haven't the ICC/ICJ dragged Israel'e leaders to the Hague and prosecuted them.

I think we all know why Israel is not in the Hague Phoney... הַסְבָּרָה‎ and because that sympathy card is played too often, however, it's only a matter of time...

That dummy is a sign that the UN knows it would lose any case they brought, and they would never get a second chance without showing their Jew hatred. The false claims by fatah last year ended up being shelved because they could not make them stick without implicating themselves for war crimes.

That dummy, is a sign that da poor likkle Jewish nation needs protecting by the zionuts in America!

Now how about you detail just what International laws Israel is in breach of regarding illegal occupation. That is actual international laws and not pretend one that came about much later or UN resolutions that are just recommendations.

GCIV is one of your favorites Phoney... Customary International Law...

I won't bother posting later laws and resolutions Phoney because you think they don't count some how...

Let me ask you...

In the UK, the drink driving law came out, mid 60's I think.... This has been amended over the years...

Is you defence for drink driving that there wasn't one pre-1965 so newer laws don't apply?

Sorry but the Hague is not controlled by the US and if the judges decide that Israel is to answer charges then they will issue arrest warrants. Once issued they become executable in any nation.


So do tell why Israel's leaders are not facing charges in the Hague ?




No it is hitting back at islamonazi morons and terrorist supporters who will LIE to have Israel wiped out

Geneva conventions does not say that Jewish settlements built on Jewish owned land are illegal at all, nor does IHL. If they did then we would be in anarchy and no one would have anything.

No I would have no defence. But I could not be charged for drink driving prior to the laws being placed on the books. Or don't you understand that simple concept, that you cant be charged under a law that did not exist at the time of the offence. Unless of course you want every law to be used retrospectively as far back as any one wants to go