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Isn't/shouldn't it kind of be men's responsibility not to have sex with women?

TSJohnson

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Think about it. A woman's first time is practically always painful and bloody. She risks pregnancy every single time she has it. If she does get pregnant, and can't get an abortion for some reason, then she's going to spend the next nine months becoming increasingly sick and uncomfortable with it only ending in the single most painful experience humanly possible. She also risks permanent damage and infection. All of these medical facts lead any reasonable person to the conclusion that it's in women's best interests if men leave them alone in that way. If men claim to love women so much, then shouldn't we at least put our personal lusts/urges second to their health and safety? Shouldn't we be putting those things above what we want or what they claim to want?
 

TemplarKormac

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Are you serious?
 
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TSJohnson

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Yes. Entirely. I've been thinking a lot about the implications a real application of feminism to one's love life would have on it. It's led me to several possibly startling conclusions about the relationship between men and women.

Honestly I've lately grown to wonder if it's even right to have a relationship with a woman at all, considering our society. It will be inherently unequal. It will inherently reduce her freedoms through fettering her with responsibilities and expectations. This seems to fly against the main point and goal of feminism: the true liberation of women. It's hard admitting that our very love for a woman might itself be oppressive, but it's something worth considering if that love is real.
 

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Makes more sense to remove the bullets than to wear a bulletproof vest

In other words, freeze some sperm in case you some day decide to have kids, then have a nice vascectomy. Problem solved.
 

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This is a joke, right?
 
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TSJohnson

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Nope. It's something I've been considering for a while. I decided to post it here to see other people's opinions on it and maybe get a discussion about feminism and the relationship between the sexes going.
 

TemplarKormac

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Yes. Entirely. I've been thinking a lot about the implications a real application of feminism to one's love life would have on it.

Er... I don't even know how to respond to this. A trollish remark just doesn't cut it here. If you apply the feminist arrogance to a love life, there wouldn't be one!


Honestly I've lately grown to wonder if it's even right to have a relationship with a woman at all,

Huh? None of us would be alive if it wasn't right for men and women to be in relationships. I'm shaking my head so much it's about to pop off any moment.


It will inherently reduce her freedoms through fettering her with responsibilities and expectations.

LOL!!!!

Really? Since when were responsibilities and expectations a bad thing? What if she wants to meet a set of expectations or take on responsibilities?


This seems to fly against the main point and goal of feminism: the true liberation of women.

Sigh. I am literally having to restrain myself from laughing out loud. In your quest to 'liberate women' you are further excluding them from the rest of society by teaching them that men are bad, responsibilities are misogynistic, and love is a danger to the freedom of women.

... I can't even...

It's hard admitting that our very love for a woman might itself be oppressive

Now I know you're out of your mind.

If a man's love for a woman is oppressive, isn't her love of a man also oppressive? Who are you to define the boundaries of love? Love is real, it has no need to oppress or restrict. Love is love.
 

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Think about it. A woman's first time is practically always painful and bloody. She risks pregnancy every single time she has it. If she does get pregnant, and can't get an abortion for some reason, then she's going to spend the next nine months becoming increasingly sick and uncomfortable with it only ending in the single most painful experience humanly possible. She also risks permanent damage and infection. All of these medical facts lead any reasonable person to the conclusion that it's in women's best interests if men leave them alone in that way. If men claim to love women so much, then shouldn't we at least put our personal lusts/urges second to their health and safety? Shouldn't we be putting those things above what we want or what they claim to want?

I've been around enough crazy, freak, horny, libedo women to know that they have trouble keeping their clothes on and will even tie you up and ravage you if you are resistant in any way. This isn't a 1 sex issue you better fucking believe it.
 
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TSJohnson

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Er... I don't even know how to respond to this. A trollish remark just doesn't cut it here. If you apply the feminist arrogance to a love life, there wouldn't be one!
It's arrogant to believe that I'm not inherently better than half of the population just because I have a penis? Really? That seems more like a trollish remark than anything...

Huh? None of us would be alive if it wasn't right for men and women to be in relationships. I'm shaking my head so much it's about to pop off any moment.
It obviously happens, but it's it really fair? Ethically? Men in this society inherently have the upper hand. That's what privilege is. Your male privilege automatically puts her at a disadvantage in any relationship you could have.

Really? Since when were responsibilities and expectations a bad thing? What if she wants to meet a set of expectations or take on responsibilities?
I would argue that Patriarchy does a very good job at telling women what they want until they believe it themselves. Why do women want boob jobs? They're told it will attract men. Why do women wear makeup? They're told it will attract men. Why do women want children? For the same reason they "want" to attract men: they're told their entire lives that it's their main - or even sole - purpose in life. Nobody can receive a lifetime worth of messaging and resist accepting it, especially when there's so much social pressure to do so. Just look at the hell society - including other women - put those women who do express desires and interests contrary to the Patriarchy's desires and interests through.

Sigh. I am literally having to restrain myself from laughing out loud. In your quest to 'liberate women' you are further excluding them from the rest of society by teaching them that men are bad, responsibilities are misogynistic, and America is enduring male oppression.
Men aren't bad. Patriarchy is bad. Men benefit from Patriarchy and naturally support it until their eyes are opened to what it's really doing. Responsibilities aren't misogynistic. Responsibilities do impose on freedom. Freedom is acquired from liberation, and the liberation of women is what feminism is all about. Freeing women from restrictions and their assigned role of domestic servitude is the entire point. Can you honestly say that a wife is free? Or a mother? Is she free to spend her money as she sees fit? Is she free to date whom she wants, go wherever she wants to go, and become anything she decides to be?

If a man's love for a woman is oppressive, isn't her love of a man also oppressive? Who are you to define the boundaries of love? Love is real, it has no need to oppress or restrict. Love is love.
Perhaps I failed to explain sufficiently what I meant by this. No matter how loving a man is to his wife, he is still unintentionally being oppressive by virtue (or vice) of being in a form of unequal relationship ultimately based on slavery with her. That's what marriage originally was: a woman's state of subjugation to the man who claimed ownership of her and her reproductive tract. We've prettied it up and idealized it since then but it's still not very different in essence. I'm lately coming to the conclusion that the highest expression of love a man can have for a woman is to let her go. Leave her alone. Refrain from imposing yourself on her, even if her conditioning has her convinced that she wants it. If you can't put her needs above your own wants and what she thinks she wants then isn't it possible that you wouldn't deserve to be with her anyway, if society were different and it could be a real equal partnership?
 

TemplarKormac

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To put it in a more succinct way, its his choice. You can't tell him what to do with his body... er, where have I heard that line before?
 

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To put it in a more succinct way, its his choice. You can't tell him what to do with his body... er, where have I heard that line before?

The other way to look at this is you can't tell a women not screw when she is horny. They get away with it all the time. Technically I've been raped many times by women, but I don't see the point in reporting it due to the fact that I enjoy being taken advantaged of by women. Very satisfying. very thrilling. I even say no, not tonight, but that doesn't work.............................
 

TemplarKormac

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It's arrogant to believe that I'm not inherently better than half of the population just because I have a penis? Really? That seems more like a trollish remark than anything...

Uh, no, it's because you have an inferiority complex. Are you superior because you have a pair of jugs?


I would argue that Patriarchy does a very good job at telling women what they want until they believe it themselves.

You do realize that women have minds of their own right? Do you need to take them hostage? When has a man forced you to do anything against your will? Hm? Can you list at least ONE example? Your premise is flawed.

Responsibilities do impose on freedom.

As they are supposed to.

Freedom is acquired from liberation, and the liberation of women is what feminism is all about.

Okay... so were not the GASP men who helped win our independence from the British in the Revolutionary War not taking on responsibilities to grant freedom to the colonies? Did not the wives of our soldiers in WWII take on the responsibility of ensuring the war machine kept running?

Freeing women from restrictions and their assigned role of domestic servitude is the entire point.

Uh, you do realize that there are women in Congress right now who took on responsibilities as elected officials on their own right? So, taking on ambition is a ball and chain to 'freedom.'

Can you honestly say that a wife is free? Or a mother?

Yes, she is. She chose that life. She used that freedom to take on her role as a wife and a mother. Something you evidently don't understand.

Is she free to spend her money as she sees fit?

Uh, yeah? This is a free country after all. The glass ceiling as you see it is just open sky to everyone else.

Is she free to date whom she wants, go wherever she wants to go, and become anything she decides to be?

Yeah? If she chooses to be a wife and a mother, that is her choice is it not? If she wants to take a 2000 mile road trip across America in a van with her children with husband in tow, that is her choice is it not? You are clueless. Who are you to dictate a woman's choices? It's her freedom that gives her choice, not her choice that restricts her freedom. Take the suffragists for example. They took on the responsibilities of starting a movement that ensured women the right to vote, which blows a hole in your uber feminist theory.

No matter how loving a man is to his wife, he is still unintentionally being oppressive by virtue (or vice) of being in a form of unequal relationship ultimately based on slavery with her.

If marriage was a one sided affair, then why does the priest make both the man and woman take the vow?

That's what marriage originally was: a woman's state of subjugation to the man who claimed ownership of her and her reproductive tract.

And what makes you think its that way today? A woman owns herself, her body when not with child, and holds dominion over her offspring. If she chooses to marry that is her choice, a choice she makes with her freedom.

We've prettied it up and idealized it since then but it's still not very different in essence. I'm lately coming to the conclusion that the highest expression of love a man can have for a woman is to let her go.

And I have come to the distinct conclusion that a lot of women would disagree with you. Who are they to love but not a man? Another woman? Which reminds me... what happens if she is a lesbian? Oops, that's another hole, and a glaring contradiction.

Refrain from imposing yourself on her, even if her conditioning has her convinced that she wants it.

And I don't think you are in any position to tell people what to do. Speaking of 'conditioning,' have you looked in the mirror lately?

If you can't put her needs above your own wants and what she thinks she wants then isn't it possible that you wouldn't deserve to be with her anyway, if society were different and it could be a real equal partnership?

The whole idea of marriage is to put the needs of the other above your own. Both man and woman. And honey, women aren't perfect either.
 
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TemplarKormac

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Nope. It's something I've been considering for a while. I decided to post it here to see other people's opinions on it and maybe get a discussion about feminism and the relationship between the sexes going.

You want the relationship to be one sided, while complaining that it is one sided.
 

TemplarKormac

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To put it in a more succinct way, its his choice. You can't tell him what to do with his body... er, where have I heard that line before?

The other way to look at this is you can't tell a women not screw when she is horny. They get away with it all the time. Technically I've been raped many times by women, but I don't see the point in reporting it due to the fact that I enjoy being taken advantaged of by women. Very satisfying. very thrilling. I even say no, not tonight, but that doesn't work.............................

And this post wins the thread. Well played, fellow.
 
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TSJohnson

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Uh, no, it's because you have an inferiority complex. Are you superior because you have a pair of jugs?
Uh, no. Nobody is superior. Not being superior doesn't make you inferior. It makes you equal. Everyone is equal.

You do realize that women have minds of their own right? Do you need to take them hostage? When has a man forced you to do anything against your will? Hm? Can you list at least ONE example? Your premise is flawed.
Yes, they do. I've never disputed that. Forcing them to want things they don't really want is kind of like taking them hostage, I guess. Technically everyone who hasn't been liberated is a hostage to the patriarchal system. You do realize that Patriarchy is just as bad for you, right?

As they are supposed to.
And so you admit that placing responsibilities on someone is taking away their freedom?

Okay... so were not the GASP men who helped win our independence from the British in the Revolutionary War not taking on responsibilities to grant freedom to the colonies? Did not the wives of our soldiers in WWII take on the responsibility of ensuring the war machine kept running?
Political privileges do not constitute freedom. The people of the rebellious colonies didn't become free just because they stopped being British subjects. The identities of their masters simply changed. Women in WWII were socially expected to take on hard factory work to fight men's political struggles. Do you honestly believe they had much choice? Do you honestly think the average girl really wanted to drop out of school (assuming she was allowed to go at all) and go work long, dangerous shifts building bombs in a forsaken factory somewhere?

Uh, you do realize that there are women in Congress right now who took on responsibilities as elected officials on their own right? So, taking on ambition is a ball and chain to 'freedom.'
At least it was a consciously chosen thing. It's what they really wanted to do rather than what they were told they should want. I don't see how it's ambitious to live the rest of your eighty years of life in domestic subservience to some man.

Yes, she is. She chose that life. She used that freedom to take on her role as a wife and a mother. Something you evidently don't understand.
What you evidently don't understand is Patriarchy's role in convincing them to do this. You probably don't understand Patriarchy itself either. It's the entirety of the male-centered power structure of society. It's the pervasive ideological substratum in our cultural consciousness that is the foundation of sexism. It's the memetic virus that says men do this and women do that and wanting to do or be something different than your assigned role is an abomination. Nobody can withstand that kind of messaging unless they consciously focus on it. It's too deeply ingrained for most people even to see.

Uh, yeah? This is a free country after all. The glass ceiling as you see it is just open sky to everyone else.
It is to everyone who is a white, heterosexual, cisgender, Christian, conservative, wealthy male, yes.

Yeah? If she chooses to be a wife and a mother, that is her choice is it not? If she wants to take a 2000 mile road trip across America in a van with her children with husband in tow, that is her choice is it not? You are clueless. Who are you to dictate a woman's choices? It's her freedom that gives her choice, not her choice that restricts her freedom. Take the suffragists for example. They took on the responsibilities of starting a movement that ensured women the right to vote, which blows a hole in your uber feminist theory.
What I'm saying is exactly what I said in the point above: it really isn't her choice. It's the choice made for her by Patriarchy. She simply chose to follow suit because she doesn't know any better, because she hasn't been taught better, because men like you will stop at nothing to keep her dumb and submissive. An educated, ambitious, liberated woman who understands her own power and desires poses the biggest threat possible to the system which you believe caters to your interests and desires. The irony is that you're just as much as slave to Patriarchy as the average woman. It hurts you just as much as them. You just don't see it because it does so in different ways.

If marriage was a one sided affair, then why does the priest make both the man and woman take the vow?
That's a relatively recent tradition. I'm pretty sure you're aware of this.

And what makes you think its that way today? A woman owns herself, her body when not with child, and holds dominion over her offspring. If she chooses to marry that is her choice, a choice she makes with her freedom.
Again, this is a choice made for her. She didn't truly make that choice for herself. She does own her body at all times, by the way, "with child" or not.

And I have come to the distinct conclusion that a lot of women would disagree with you. Who are they to love bot not a man? Another woman? Which reminds me... what happens if she is a lesbian? Oops, that's another hole, and a glaring contradiction.
This doesn't really follow. At least a relationship between two women is between social equals. At least then there's no disparity in power.

And I don't think you are in any position to tell people what to do. Speaking of 'conditioning,' have you looked in the mirror lately?
I'm still mired in Patriarchal thinking and my own privilege too. The difference between us is that I'm aware of it. I see it and try to overcome it.

The whole idea of marriage is to put the needs of the other above your own. Both man and woman. And honey, women aren't perfect.
Then we're in agreement about the moral necessity of putting another's needs over your own wants (which is the basis of liberalism, btw; there might be hope for you after all). This is exactly what I'm advocating here. It's your moral duty to give her what she needs, even if it's something you don't want.[/QUOTE]
 

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To put it in a more succinct way, its his choice. You can't tell him what to do with his body... er, where have I heard that line before?

The other way to look at this is you can't tell a women not screw when she is horny. They get away with it all the time. Technically I've been raped many times by women, but I don't see the point in reporting it due to the fact that I enjoy being taken advantaged of by women. Very satisfying. very thrilling. I even say no, not tonight, but that doesn't work.............................

And this post wins the thread. Well played, fellow.

Too easy.
 
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TSJohnson

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The other way to look at this is you can't tell a women not screw when she is horny. They get away with it all the time. Technically I've been raped many times by women, but I don't see the point in reporting it due to the fact that I enjoy being taken advantaged of by women. Very satisfying. very thrilling. I even say no, not tonight, but that doesn't work.............................
You do understand why this worries me? It should worry anyone that you consider rape "satisfying" and "thrilling" and "enjoyable". If you've been raped then you need to tell someone. I can put you in contact with people who can help if you'd like.
 

Judicial review

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The other way to look at this is you can't tell a women not screw when she is horny. They get away with it all the time. Technically I've been raped many times by women, but I don't see the point in reporting it due to the fact that I enjoy being taken advantaged of by women. Very satisfying. very thrilling. I even say no, not tonight, but that doesn't work.............................
You do understand why this worries me? It should worry anyone that you consider rape "satisfying" and "thrilling" and "enjoyable". If you've been raped then you need to tell someone. I can put you in contact with people who can help if you'd like.

Oh no... No need. I fully enjoyed it. I don't see a problem with it at all. I actually have fantasies about it time to time. I'd feel terrible if the women got sent to jail for something I enjoyed. I'd feel like I abused the court system and ruined a life. I mean she'd never get a job or anything. Way to harsh.
 

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