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ErikViking

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I have been reading a thread about the ”Popular Vote”. At first I couldn’t understand why the candidate with most votes wouldn’t win. That was until I a saw an explanation, and it made sense. I think there are a few things in the USA that seems strange, or even stupid, at a first glance. Like the Filibuster procedure. Or some peoples obsessive worrying over legislation regarding guns.

Testing this:

USA is a vast country with a certain degree of diversity between states, culturally and economically. Americans feel that this diversity needs to be protected and everyone has agreed to do so, even if that means that one state, in the eyes of another, makes some really bad decisions. This is so important that the government is less trusted to look out for a person’s wellbeing. The effect is that the president needs to be elected taking this in account. In general, the “little man” or a minority needs to be able to stand up against the majority, hence the Filibuster. Even the gun issue can be read in to this as it enables people to defend themselves, not only from criminals, but on a deeper level against the government. (I don’t mean that there is an urge for civil war, quite the opposite, whom ever in power would know that this power only extends so far).

Also Americans in general has a low degree of solidarity. Not as flawed character or lack of compassion, just that this “contract” between citizens is on a more personal scale, not between the citizen and the government like: “As I don’t trust the government to look out for my own wellbeing I don’t trust it to look out for yours either. I like to direct my money where I think it matters most”.



I know this is a generalization, not very in-depth either. But for someone who is not a scholar and only has the interest of some sort of light understanding, is it a fair description?
 

bullwinkle

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I have been reading a thread about the ”Popular Vote”. At first I couldn’t understand why the candidate with most votes wouldn’t win. That was until I a saw an explanation, and it made sense. I think there are a few things in the USA that seems strange, or even stupid, at a first glance. Like the Filibuster procedure. Or some peoples obsessive worrying over legislation regarding guns.

Testing this:

USA is a vast country with a certain degree of diversity between states, culturally and economically. Americans feel that this diversity needs to be protected and everyone has agreed to do so, even if that means that one state, in the eyes of another, makes some really bad decisions. This is so important that the government is less trusted to look out for a person’s wellbeing. The effect is that the president needs to be elected taking this in account. In general, the “little man” or a minority needs to be able to stand up against the majority, hence the Filibuster. Even the gun issue can be read in to this as it enables people to defend themselves, not only from criminals, but on a deeper level against the government. (I don’t mean that there is an urge for civil war, quite the opposite, whom ever in power would know that this power only extends so far).

Also Americans in general has a low degree of solidarity. Not as flawed character or lack of compassion, just that this “contract” between citizens is on a more personal scale, not between the citizen and the government like: “As I don’t trust the government to look out for my own wellbeing I don’t trust it to look out for yours either. I like to direct my money where I think it matters most”.



I know this is a generalization, not very in-depth either. But for someone who is not a scholar and only has the interest of some sort of light understanding, is it a fair description?
I am not a scholar either, and I'd have to think about the ideas you have laid out. For example, you refer to the 'popular vote' vs the 'electoral college' (I assume this) as a measure of protection of the rights of the less populace states, but there is also a danger of the tyranny of the minority. Also, I have always felt it is not the government's job to look out for my wellbeing exactly, but more of a mandate to provide the opportunity for me to look out for my own wellbeing, and if I fail that, it is my fault. The old 'hand up, not hand out' philosophy. Yet, I'm not sure we differ at all, and I salute you for giving careful thought to our common good. Please continue to discuss your concerns, and I think many will stumble thru sincere responses.
 

GLASNOST

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I have been reading a thread about the ”Popular Vote”. At first I couldn’t understand why the candidate with most votes wouldn’t win. That was until I a saw an explanation, and it made sense. I think there are a few things in the USA that seems strange, or even stupid, at a first glance. Like the Filibuster procedure. Or some peoples obsessive worrying over legislation regarding guns.

Testing this:

USA is a vast country with a certain degree of diversity between states, culturally and economically. Americans feel that this diversity needs to be protected and everyone has agreed to do so, even if that means that one state, in the eyes of another, makes some really bad decisions. This is so important that the government is less trusted to look out for a person’s wellbeing. The effect is that the president needs to be elected taking this in account. In general, the “little man” or a minority needs to be able to stand up against the majority, hence the Filibuster. Even the gun issue can be read in to this as it enables people to defend themselves, not only from criminals, but on a deeper level against the government. (I don’t mean that there is an urge for civil war, quite the opposite, whom ever in power would know that this power only extends so far).

Also Americans in general has a low degree of solidarity. Not as flawed character or lack of compassion, just that this “contract” between citizens is on a more personal scale, not between the citizen and the government like: “As I don’t trust the government to look out for my own wellbeing I don’t trust it to look out for yours either. I like to direct my money where I think it matters most”.



I know this is a generalization, not very in-depth either. But for someone who is not a scholar and only has the interest of some sort of light understanding, is it a fair description?
Lägg av!
 

GLASNOST

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Nej, det är det inte. You are trying to understand a corrupt system, but you are trying to find legitimacy in that system because you have been taught to believe that the US is the leader in Democracy and Freedom. It is a lie. Even Sweden has a much higher standard of Democracy. Look at the International Democracy Index and you will see that Sweden is in the top 3 (or even first) in the world. The US is nowhere near that high. Här har du en ledtråd: American Democracy is a bluff. It is similar to the Democracy that existed in the Sovjet Unionen. Yes, there is an element of Democracy there too. But you will also find Democracy in North Korea. Not very much, but it is there.

I understand that you want to find answers to your questions and that's very good, but you must open your mind and be willing to accept fact and not what American propaganda, DN, and Reinfeldt tell you. The US is a country of a very frustrated population. This is not their fault and they are trying to survive every day by the only means an inferior education and the strongest censorship in "the west" allows them.
 
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bullwinkle

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Nej, det är det inte. You are trying to understand a corrupt system, but you are trying to find legitimacy in that system because you have been taught to believe that the US is the leader in Democracy and Freedom. It is a lie. Even Sweden has a much higher standard of Democracy. Look at the International Democracy Index and you will see that Sweden is in the top 3 (or even first) in the world. The US is nowhere near that high. Här har du en ledtråd: American Democracy is a bluff. It is similar to the Democracy that existed in the Sovjet Unionen. Yes, there is an element of Democracy there too. But you will also find Democracy in North Korea. Not very much, but it is there.

I understand that you want to find answers to your questions and that's very good, but you must open your mind and be willing to accept fact and not what American propaganda, DN, and Reinfeldt tell you. The US is a country of a very frustrated population. This is not their fault and they are trying to survive every day by the only means an inferior education and the strongest censorship in "the west" allows them.
Glasnost, I hate to be the first to tell you this, but a dog (yours?) crapping on the American flag is not a way to win friends. Nor am I as cynical as you seem to be. (Cynic: one who knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing). Although I do share some of your conclusions. I don't know about Eric, but I think most Americans are well aware of our nation's shortcomings. Me, I still think of us as a work in progress. It is also well known that for everything you get, you lose something, as in privacy with the advent of telephone, internet, facebook et al. And yet, when I was in prime 60 years ago, women couldn't get credit in their own name, when Gable said "Damn" at the end of a movie the whole audience gasped in unison, Ira Hayes, among many others including the code talkers, couldn't vote even if he presented his military creds, mass transportation was the main mode of local travel, and there were neighborhoods that provided all a family's needs, so sometimes the gains outweigh the losses, and sometimes not. We keep advancing, sometimes forward, sometimes back, and it gets confusing, but hey!
 

GLASNOST

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Glasnost, I hate to be the first to tell you this, but a dog (yours?) crapping on the American flag is not a way to win friends.
I'm not here to make friends. Anyway, you can make friends no matter what it is you do or say ..... and you'll probably end up rubbing shoulders with the sort people you will be proud to call "friend". You, for example. You seem like a nice guy who doesn't care about my poopy dog on the flag.
Nor am I as cynical as you seem to be.
Let's cross our fingers that you are lucky..... rather than naïve.
Although I do share some of your conclusions. I don't know about Eric, but I think most Americans are well aware of our nation's shortcomings.
I am under the impression that Eric is neither American nor aware of your nation's shortcomings. I am wrong?
Me, I still think of us as a work in progress. It is also well known that for everything you get, you lose something, as in privacy with the advent of telephone, internet, facebook et al. And yet, when I was in prime 60 years ago, women couldn't get credit in their own name, when Gable said "Damn" at the end of a movie the whole audience gasped in unison, Ira Hayes, among many others including the code talkers, couldn't vote even if he presented his military creds, mass transportation was the main mode of local travel, and there were neighborhoods that provided all a family's needs, so sometimes the gains outweigh the losses, and sometimes not. We keep advancing, sometimes forward, sometimes back, and it gets confusing, but hey!
I agree with you one thousand percent! Maybe, if Trump (or whoever it is who's running the country) brings back Democracy, I'll scold my dog and clean up that mess he's made!
:beer:
 
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ErikViking

ErikViking

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Nej, det är det inte. You are trying to understand a corrupt system, but you are trying to find legitimacy in that system because you have been taught to believe that the US is the leader in Democracy and Freedom. It is a lie. Even Sweden has a much higher standard of Democracy. Look at the International Democracy Index and you will see that Sweden is in the top 3 (or even first) in the world. The US is nowhere near that high. Här har du en ledtråd: American Democracy is a bluff. It is similar to the Democracy that existed in the Sovjet Unionen. Yes, there is an element of Democracy there too. But you will also find Democracy in North Korea. Not very much, but it is there.

I understand that you want to find answers to your questions and that's very good, but you must open your mind and be willing to accept fact and not what American propaganda, DN, and Reinfeldt tell you. The US is a country of a very frustrated population. This is not their fault and they are trying to survive every day by the only means an inferior education and the strongest censorship in "the west" allows them.
Good job :)

It's very easy for people to say things like:

"How can they choose Trump, they must be crazy."

"The person getting most votes should be the winner."

"You must be an idiot if you wish to arm everybody with automatic weapons and expect it to result in more safety."

I basically believe people to be quite similar, and when large groups of people do things I can't understand it sometimes gets me thinking about how and why.

You mention Soviet Union. I wonder how a people, freed from dictatorship still insist to choose a leader that shows... a very liberal attitude towards basic elements in a democracy.

Or how people in Turkey seems to support Erdogan, for real.


Your input is very interesting and I only ask to get exactly what you suggest, an alternative to media and propaganda.
 

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