Is there a god?

[The Sage of Main Street]

Did you bear false witness in doing so? Did you violate a promise in doing so? You lose again.

Violate a promise?

It's called keeping your word and it is a moral law and there are predictable surprises when one is not true to his word. Most people see this as a self evident truth.

Lying can lead to positive outcomes, now THAT'S a self-evident truth.

Not in the long run it doesn't. Truth is always the best answer.

The truth can get you killed, so no, not always the way forward.

The Bullies' Pulpit of Self-Righteous Sermonizing

People have to earn the right to be told the truth. It is the private property of the person telling. It is not there for the asking.

 

[Taz]

Still just your opinion, not anywhere near what's known as "proof". Go buy a ******* dictionary.

You believe in the concept of fairness and expect everyone else to know and follow this invisible law of common decency but still won't recognize this as the moral law?

Why do you INSIST on other people accepting shit you make up? There is no invisible law of common decency and the only moral laws are the 10 big ones, which nobody follows.

But you yourself demonstrate on a daily basis that you believe there is an invisible law of common decency. You believe in the concept of fairness.

No I don't, life isn't always fair, and sometimes you do things that other people see as not fair. Fairness works like a contract, I'll be fair with someone until they screw me, then it can't be a one way street of fairness on my part, because then you're just a sap. Your positive outcomes can happen in those instances, although not everyone might see it as such, lol.

So you never have an expectation for a fair outcome? Never?

If that were true you wouldn't keep bringing up deformed babies, now would you?

Sure, there are fair situations with fair outcomes, but it's not always like that. You gotta go with the flow.

 

[ding]

You believe in the concept of fairness and expect everyone else to know and follow this invisible law of common decency but still won't recognize this as the moral law?

Why do you INSIST on other people accepting shit you make up? There is no invisible law of common decency and the only moral laws are the 10 big ones, which nobody follows.

But you yourself demonstrate on a daily basis that you believe there is an invisible law of common decency. You believe in the concept of fairness.

No I don't, life isn't always fair, and sometimes you do things that other people see as not fair. Fairness works like a contract, I'll be fair with someone until they screw me, then it can't be a one way street of fairness on my part, because then you're just a sap. Your positive outcomes can happen in those instances, although not everyone might see it as such, lol.

So you never have an expectation for a fair outcome? Never?

If that were true you wouldn't keep bringing up deformed babies, now would you?

Sure, there are fair situations with fair outcomes, but it's not always like that. You gotta go with the flow.

Thank you for admitting to the moral law. It's about time.

 

[ding]

Violate a promise?

It's called keeping your word and it is a moral law and there are predictable surprises when one is not true to his word. Most people see this as a self evident truth.

Lying can lead to positive outcomes, now THAT'S a self-evident truth.

Not in the long run it doesn't. Truth is always the best answer.

The truth can get you killed, so no, not always the way forward.

The Bullies' Pulpit of Self-Righteous Sermonizing

People have to earn the right to be told the truth. It is the private property of the person telling. It is not there for the asking.

"Wisdom is not given to just any jack-a-nape." Tom Robbins

 

[Taz]

Personal opinion mixed with some mumbo jumbo. Not proof either.

No. Factual evidence. You do understand how natural selection works, right?

Are you denying evolution?

Peace and harmony work for certain species and for others, it doesn't. There's not a single way that only that way leads to your good outcomes. And you haven't shown it either.

Which species does it work for and which species doesn't it work for, Taz?

As an example, I was watching a show on Tasmanian devils the other day, the cubs fight NON-STOP over EVERYTHING, as a way to assert their dominance, even at an early age. Pretty nasty animals.

Putting aside that I don't necessary agree with you, is that all you have to answer my question?

Which species does peace and harmony work for and which species doesn't peace and harmony work for, Taz? I don't think saying that you saw show on Tasmanian devils the other day is much of an answer.

That's just one example of a species that don't use peace and harmony to get ahead. Nature is full of them. Even some humans are like that. And there are others, like a school of fish, that need harmony and cooperation to get by. Waddaya want? A ******* zoology lesson?

 

[ding]

No. Factual evidence. You do understand how natural selection works, right?

Are you denying evolution?

Peace and harmony work for certain species and for others, it doesn't. There's not a single way that only that way leads to your good outcomes. And you haven't shown it either.

Which species does it work for and which species doesn't it work for, Taz?

As an example, I was watching a show on Tasmanian devils the other day, the cubs fight NON-STOP over EVERYTHING, as a way to assert their dominance, even at an early age. Pretty nasty animals.

Putting aside that I don't necessary agree with you, is that all you have to answer my question?

Which species does peace and harmony work for and which species doesn't peace and harmony work for, Taz? I don't think saying that you saw show on Tasmanian devils the other day is much of an answer.

That's just one example of a species that don't use peace and harmony to get ahead. Nature is full of them. Even some humans are like that. And there are others, like a school of fish, that need harmony and cooperation to get by. Waddaya want? A ******* zoology lesson?

But they do. They all do. You just don't understand it.

 

[Taz]

For the record, I don't think you are very happy at all with life.

Well, at least you're consistent, consistently wrong that is.

 

[Taz]

Is that why the US is in such chaos all the time?

Can you give me an example of a virtuous country living in peace and harmony?

Yes, because we stopped following the moral law.

Yes, there are numerous examples. Here is my witness.

Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America
Upon my arrival in the United States the religious aspect of the country was the first thing that struck my attention; and the longer I stayed there, the more I perceived the great political consequences resulting from this new state of things. In France I had almost always seen the spirit of religion and the spirit of freedom marching in opposite directions. But in America I found they were intimately united and that they reigned in common over the same country. Religion in America...must be regarded as the foremost of the political institutions of that country; for if it does not impart a taste for freedom, it facilitates the use of it. Indeed, it is in this same point of view that the inhabitants of the United States themselves look upon religious belief. I do not know whether all Americans have a sincere faith in their religion -- for who can search the human heart? But I am certain that they hold it to be indispensable to the maintenance of republican institutions. This opinion is not peculiar to a class of citizens or a party, but it belongs to the whole nation and to every rank of society. In the United States, the sovereign authority is religious...there is no country in the world where the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America, and there can be no greater proof of its utility and of its conformity to human nature than that its influence is powerfully felt over the most enlightened and free nation of the earth. In the United States, the influence of religion is not confined to the manners, but it extends to the intelligence of the people...

Christianity, therefore, reigns without obstacle, by universal consent...

I sought for the key to the greatness and genius of America in her harbors...; in her fertile fields and boundless forests; in her rich mines and vast world commerce; in her public school system and institutions of learning. I sought for it in her democratic Congress and in her matchless Constitution Not until I went into the churches of America and heard her pulpits flame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and power. America is great because America is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great. The safeguard of morality is religion, and morality is the best security of law as well as the surest pledge of freedom. The Americans combine the notions of Christianity and of liberty so intimately in their minds, that it is impossible to make them conceive the one without the other Christianity is the companion of liberty in all its conflicts -- the cradle of its infancy, and the divine source of its claims.

One Nation Under God: Alexis de Tocqueville

"Yes, there are numerous examples." So give me 5.

Early America.

Early China.

Early Israel.

Early Western Civilization.

Early Mesopotamia.

All those examples are filled with war, massacres, rapes-as-a-weapon and slavery. Please try again.

Wounded Knee Pest Control

What makes you believe that all four of those are evil under any circumstances?

I don't know what that is. Please explain.

 

[Taz]

Why do you INSIST on other people accepting shit you make up? There is no invisible law of common decency and the only moral laws are the 10 big ones, which nobody follows.

But you yourself demonstrate on a daily basis that you believe there is an invisible law of common decency. You believe in the concept of fairness.

No I don't, life isn't always fair, and sometimes you do things that other people see as not fair. Fairness works like a contract, I'll be fair with someone until they screw me, then it can't be a one way street of fairness on my part, because then you're just a sap. Your positive outcomes can happen in those instances, although not everyone might see it as such, lol.

So you never have an expectation for a fair outcome? Never?

If that were true you wouldn't keep bringing up deformed babies, now would you?

Sure, there are fair situations with fair outcomes, but it's not always like that. You gotta go with the flow.

Thank you for admitting to the moral law. It's about time.

Talk about grasping at straws!! Geez, you're getting desperate! Your moral law has good outcomes for fairness and unfairness. Great ******* law.

 

[ding]

But you yourself demonstrate on a daily basis that you believe there is an invisible law of common decency. You believe in the concept of fairness.

No I don't, life isn't always fair, and sometimes you do things that other people see as not fair. Fairness works like a contract, I'll be fair with someone until they screw me, then it can't be a one way street of fairness on my part, because then you're just a sap. Your positive outcomes can happen in those instances, although not everyone might see it as such, lol.

So you never have an expectation for a fair outcome? Never?

If that were true you wouldn't keep bringing up deformed babies, now would you?

Sure, there are fair situations with fair outcomes, but it's not always like that. You gotta go with the flow.

Thank you for admitting to the moral law. It's about time.

Talk about grasping at straws!! Geez, you're getting desperate! Your moral law has good outcomes for fairness and unfairness. Great ******* law.

Again you fail to grasp that the moral law is what we ought to do and not what we do. You continue to confuse the two.

 

[ding]

For the record, I don't think you are very happy at all with life.

Well, at least you're consistent, consistently wrong that is.

I'm just basing it on my observation of your behavior. Only you know the truth.

 

[Taz]

Peace and harmony work for certain species and for others, it doesn't. There's not a single way that only that way leads to your good outcomes. And you haven't shown it either.

Which species does it work for and which species doesn't it work for, Taz?

As an example, I was watching a show on Tasmanian devils the other day, the cubs fight NON-STOP over EVERYTHING, as a way to assert their dominance, even at an early age. Pretty nasty animals.

Putting aside that I don't necessary agree with you, is that all you have to answer my question?

Which species does peace and harmony work for and which species doesn't peace and harmony work for, Taz? I don't think saying that you saw show on Tasmanian devils the other day is much of an answer.

That's just one example of a species that don't use peace and harmony to get ahead. Nature is full of them. Even some humans are like that. And there are others, like a school of fish, that need harmony and cooperation to get by. Waddaya want? A ******* zoology lesson?

But they do. They all do. You just don't understand it.

No I don't, life isn't always fair, and sometimes you do things that other people see as not fair. Fairness works like a contract, I'll be fair with someone until they screw me, then it can't be a one way street of fairness on my part, because then you're just a sap. Your positive outcomes can happen in those instances, although not everyone might see it as such, lol.

So you never have an expectation for a fair outcome? Never?

If that were true you wouldn't keep bringing up deformed babies, now would you?

Sure, there are fair situations with fair outcomes, but it's not always like that. You gotta go with the flow.

Thank you for admitting to the moral law. It's about time.

Talk about grasping at straws!! Geez, you're getting desperate! Your moral law has good outcomes for fairness and unfairness. Great ******* law.

Again you fail to grasp that the moral law is what we ought to do and not what we do. You continue to confuse the two.

So what does fairness have to do with what we ought to do? Fairness isn't a first response when thinking about what I should do. In fact, fairness rarely comes into it, if ever.

 

[ding]

Which species does it work for and which species doesn't it work for, Taz?

As an example, I was watching a show on Tasmanian devils the other day, the cubs fight NON-STOP over EVERYTHING, as a way to assert their dominance, even at an early age. Pretty nasty animals.

Putting aside that I don't necessary agree with you, is that all you have to answer my question?

Which species does peace and harmony work for and which species doesn't peace and harmony work for, Taz? I don't think saying that you saw show on Tasmanian devils the other day is much of an answer.

That's just one example of a species that don't use peace and harmony to get ahead. Nature is full of them. Even some humans are like that. And there are others, like a school of fish, that need harmony and cooperation to get by. Waddaya want? A ******* zoology lesson?

But they do. They all do. You just don't understand it.

So you never have an expectation for a fair outcome? Never?

If that were true you wouldn't keep bringing up deformed babies, now would you?

Sure, there are fair situations with fair outcomes, but it's not always like that. You gotta go with the flow.

Thank you for admitting to the moral law. It's about time.

Talk about grasping at straws!! Geez, you're getting desperate! Your moral law has good outcomes for fairness and unfairness. Great ******* law.

Again you fail to grasp that the moral law is what we ought to do and not what we do. You continue to confuse the two.

So what does fairness have to do with what we ought to do? Fairness isn't a first response when thinking about what I should do. In fact, fairness rarely comes into it, if ever.

It proves there is a moral law that you didn't make and can't get rid of.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Yes, because we stopped following the moral law.

Yes, there are numerous examples. Here is my witness.

Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America
Upon my arrival in the United States the religious aspect of the country was the first thing that struck my attention; and the longer I stayed there, the more I perceived the great political consequences resulting from this new state of things. In France I had almost always seen the spirit of religion and the spirit of freedom marching in opposite directions. But in America I found they were intimately united and that they reigned in common over the same country. Religion in America...must be regarded as the foremost of the political institutions of that country; for if it does not impart a taste for freedom, it facilitates the use of it. Indeed, it is in this same point of view that the inhabitants of the United States themselves look upon religious belief. I do not know whether all Americans have a sincere faith in their religion -- for who can search the human heart? But I am certain that they hold it to be indispensable to the maintenance of republican institutions. This opinion is not peculiar to a class of citizens or a party, but it belongs to the whole nation and to every rank of society. In the United States, the sovereign authority is religious...there is no country in the world where the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America, and there can be no greater proof of its utility and of its conformity to human nature than that its influence is powerfully felt over the most enlightened and free nation of the earth. In the United States, the influence of religion is not confined to the manners, but it extends to the intelligence of the people...

Christianity, therefore, reigns without obstacle, by universal consent...

I sought for the key to the greatness and genius of America in her harbors...; in her fertile fields and boundless forests; in her rich mines and vast world commerce; in her public school system and institutions of learning. I sought for it in her democratic Congress and in her matchless Constitution Not until I went into the churches of America and heard her pulpits flame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and power. America is great because America is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great. The safeguard of morality is religion, and morality is the best security of law as well as the surest pledge of freedom. The Americans combine the notions of Christianity and of liberty so intimately in their minds, that it is impossible to make them conceive the one without the other Christianity is the companion of liberty in all its conflicts -- the cradle of its infancy, and the divine source of its claims.

One Nation Under God: Alexis de Tocqueville

"Yes, there are numerous examples." So give me 5.

Early America.

Early China.

Early Israel.

Early Western Civilization.

Early Mesopotamia.

All those examples are filled with war, massacres, rapes-as-a-weapon and slavery. Please try again.

Wounded Knee Pest Control

What makes you believe that all four of those are evil under any circumstances?

I don't know what that is. Please explain.

Whirled Wad Wub

It is perfectly clear. Quit pretending it isn't, in order to evade the question. That is a typical Internet act.

 

[Taz]

"Yes, there are numerous examples." So give me 5.

Early America.

Early China.

Early Israel.

Early Western Civilization.

Early Mesopotamia.

All those examples are filled with war, massacres, rapes-as-a-weapon and slavery. Please try again.

Wounded Knee Pest Control

What makes you believe that all four of those are evil under any circumstances?

I don't know what that is. Please explain.

Whirled Wad Wub

It is perfectly clear. Quit pretending it isn't, in order to evade the question. That is a typical Internet act.

I wasn't sure what the "wounded knee pest control" thing was, but I'll keep playing.

dingbat was saying that peace and harmony led to virtuous societies. The ones he named were filled with all kinds of nasty shit. So not peaceful, harmonious or virtuous.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Early America.

Early China.

Early Israel.

Early Western Civilization.

Early Mesopotamia.

All those examples are filled with war, massacres, rapes-as-a-weapon and slavery. Please try again.

Wounded Knee Pest Control

What makes you believe that all four of those are evil under any circumstances?

I don't know what that is. Please explain.

Whirled Wad Wub

It is perfectly clear. Quit pretending it isn't, in order to evade the question. That is a typical Internet act.

I wasn't sure what the "wounded knee pest control" thing was, but I'll keep playing.

dingbat was saying that peace and harmony led to virtuous societies. The ones he named were filled with all kinds of nasty shit. So not peaceful, harmonious or virtuous.

Trail of Crybabies

You could look up Wounded Knee in a few seconds. I've heard your evasion many times.

"Nasty shit" may be necessary to form a viable society. Early Israel, for example, knew what it was doing when it exterminated the feral occupants. Recent events have proved they were right. They were an inspiration to our pioneers, who were the true Founding Fathers, not those Wags Wearing Wigs in Philadelphia. Today's ruling classes are too weak-willed and feralphile to do the hard things necessary for survival against savages, so they must be overthrown if we are to have a future

 

[oldsoul]

The moral law is about what we ought to do, not what we do. But what we do does not negate the moral law.

But everyone who leans on religion thinks they are right and following your moral law. Like I said before, who gets to decide? Because ALL believers think that their view is right, especially Christians in the US, and they are obviously simply stupid and nuts.

Well, I guess that makes me a non-believer then. I do NOT think my view is the only way, I do NOT think my view is right for anyone but me. Therefore, by your logic, I am a non-believer.

See what happens when you start over generalising? It's offensive and immoral. You ONLY create animosity, and THAT is where your view falls.

You made something up to fit your world, which makes you a believer... in something made up. That it creates animosity is on you, people don't usually like the hard questions...

Hard questions? you want hard questions? Hows's this:

If not God, then how did EVERYTHING come to be? I mean before even the theory of "The Big Bang"? Where did the matter come from to begin with? How's that for a hard question?

that's not proof of god when you ask questions..answers are proof--not questions

Notice how I started with "Hard questions..."? Not, "here's proof." You seem to be attempting to put words in my mouth.

 

[oldsoul]

If it is proof you are looking for, I have what I believe and nothing more. One can "see" proof if one wishes, or one can "see" no proof, if that is what one wishes. Whether or not there is proof is not the point here. If you do not believe there is a god that's just fine with me. What I want to know from you, then, is what does that mean to you?

I'm agnostic, I see no proof either way for or against the possibility of a god(s), but am open to changing my mind given empirical proof either way. That's why I first came here, to see if there was anything concrete that people believed in. Apparently, there's not. Not here, anyways.

Well, if it's empirical proof you seek, I wish you all the luck in the world. I doubt you will ever find any, at least not in this life. See, the problem is that the very concept of god is far beyond anything we mere humans can comprehend. Therefore, empirical proof is impossible.

In other words, you have no real proof so you scapegoat your made up god and say that it's so on another level that there can be no proof. Oldest trick in The Book. YAWWWWN!

Ok, maybe this will be of more interest to you. Assume, for a moment, there is a god, and that said god created the entire universe. What tells you that we, as mere humans, would have the ability to come even close to comprehending what that god is, let alone "real proof" that said god exists? What tells you that we have the ability to explain such an entity? Such an entity would, I say is, so far beyond our ability to comprehend that we really have no hope of EVER understanding. Therefore, what you ask for is far beyond your ability to comprehend, and is, therefore, completely futile. Unless, of course, you can explain where all the matter in the universe came from... If not a god, then what? It just always has been? Where did the laws of nature come from? If evolution is the truth, then why did life on this planet only start once? Do you understand what the odds of THAT scenario are, that life, spontaneously, started only once in the entire history of the world?

What tells you that we wouldn't have the ability to explain and understand such an entity? You're assuming facts not in evidence. And then say, well, since such an entity is beyond our scope, then I'll simply make one up, some hateful brah who drowns babies and adults, helps kills others, and threatens up with roasting if we don't obey a book. It's so totally ludicrous that I'm amazed that in this day and age, ANYONE still believes in that nonsense.

What tells you that we wouldn't have the ability to explain and understand such an entity?

Simple. Let me scale it back a bit. How could a machine, created by man, understand how it was created, if man did not tell it? Same concept.

 

[Taz]

I'm agnostic, I see no proof either way for or against the possibility of a god(s), but am open to changing my mind given empirical proof either way. That's why I first came here, to see if there was anything concrete that people believed in. Apparently, there's not. Not here, anyways.

Well, if it's empirical proof you seek, I wish you all the luck in the world. I doubt you will ever find any, at least not in this life. See, the problem is that the very concept of god is far beyond anything we mere humans can comprehend. Therefore, empirical proof is impossible.

In other words, you have no real proof so you scapegoat your made up god and say that it's so on another level that there can be no proof. Oldest trick in The Book. YAWWWWN!

Ok, maybe this will be of more interest to you. Assume, for a moment, there is a god, and that said god created the entire universe. What tells you that we, as mere humans, would have the ability to come even close to comprehending what that god is, let alone "real proof" that said god exists? What tells you that we have the ability to explain such an entity? Such an entity would, I say is, so far beyond our ability to comprehend that we really have no hope of EVER understanding. Therefore, what you ask for is far beyond your ability to comprehend, and is, therefore, completely futile. Unless, of course, you can explain where all the matter in the universe came from... If not a god, then what? It just always has been? Where did the laws of nature come from? If evolution is the truth, then why did life on this planet only start once? Do you understand what the odds of THAT scenario are, that life, spontaneously, started only once in the entire history of the world?

What tells you that we wouldn't have the ability to explain and understand such an entity? You're assuming facts not in evidence. And then say, well, since such an entity is beyond our scope, then I'll simply make one up, some hateful brah who drowns babies and adults, helps kills others, and threatens up with roasting if we don't obey a book. It's so totally ludicrous that I'm amazed that in this day and age, ANYONE still believes in that nonsense.

What tells you that we wouldn't have the ability to explain and understand such an entity?

Simple. Let me scale it back a bit. How could a machine, created by man, understand how it was created, if man did not tell it? Same concept.

An advanced robot could scan us... Like "Data" is on Star Trek: The Next Generation. Anyways, you're comparing man to a machine, so double failure.

 

[oldsoul]

If it is proof you are looking for, I have what I believe and nothing more. One can "see" proof if one wishes, or one can "see" no proof, if that is what one wishes. Whether or not there is proof is not the point here. If you do not believe there is a god that's just fine with me. What I want to know from you, then, is what does that mean to you?

I'm agnostic, I see no proof either way for or against the possibility of a god(s), but am open to changing my mind given empirical proof either way. That's why I first came here, to see if there was anything concrete that people believed in. Apparently, there's not. Not here, anyways.

Well, if it's empirical proof you seek, I wish you all the luck in the world. I doubt you will ever find any, at least not in this life. See, the problem is that the very concept of god is far beyond anything we mere humans can comprehend. Therefore, empirical proof is impossible.

In other words, you have no real proof so you scapegoat your made up god and say that it's so on another level that there can be no proof. Oldest trick in The Book. YAWWWWN!

Ok, maybe this will be of more interest to you. Assume, for a moment, there is a god, and that said god created the entire universe. What tells you that we, as mere humans, would have the ability to come even close to comprehending what that god is, let alone "real proof" that said god exists? What tells you that we have the ability to explain such an entity? Such an entity would, I say is, so far beyond our ability to comprehend that we really have no hope of EVER understanding. Therefore, what you ask for is far beyond your ability to comprehend, and is, therefore, completely futile. Unless, of course, you can explain where all the matter in the universe came from... If not a god, then what? It just always has been? Where did the laws of nature come from? If evolution is the truth, then why did life on this planet only start once? Do you understand what the odds of THAT scenario are, that life, spontaneously, started only once in the entire history of the world?

Just because at this point in time we don't know where all matter comes from doesn't default over to it being from an invisible being. That's pure fantasy.

If evolution isn't the truth, then do you believe that god just started plopping people around there earth? How did that work exactly? He made Adam out of thin air, then ripped out one of his ribs to make Eve?

It is beyond my understanding, something I can accept. Apparently you cannot, that's not a fault, just an observation. Some people require more evidence than I do. I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is you classifying my beliefs as "fantasy" simply because you do not share them. That is really quite offensive to me, therefore I respectfully request you stop using that term. I thank you in advance.