Is There A God?

[Divine Wind]

No. Not being separated from God is heaven. I thought we went through this already.

Agreed. OTOH, I do not think the Almighty is petty nor a punisher. People who wish to be in God's grace can be, those who do not remain in the darkness. Their choice.

Question: Do you believe "evil" is a force unto itself or is it simply the absence of Grace like cold is not a force, just an absence of heat?

 

[yiostheoy]

With the explosion of the Singularity, all space time began. "Let there be light". So what caused the Singularity? What was before (despite the fact there really isn't a "before" where the beginning of time is concerned. We just don't have the language to say otherwise)

Before the Oscillating Universe theory was disproved, it was plausible to think in terms of "always". Now we cannot. The Universe had a definite beginning and we know it will have a cold, endlessness which never ends. Why? What are the external forces that are causal to the origin of our Universe? Why do most people get a sense there is something beyond physical reality? Most meaning about 98% of the human population throughout history.

I don't think it makes sense to take Moses' words too literally here.

He was just telling a story to 600 clans of Hebrews that he was leading out of Egypt.

As for his reason for making this story up, he probably wanted to impress upon them the need for them to obey laws and not murder each other at the drop of a hat.

Consider the necessity for the various commandments he gave them -- they were cursing, lying, cheating, stealing, adultering each other's wives, coveting each others goods, having sex with beasts, children, and same sex sex, etc. Egypt was a very corrupt place, like all civilizations.

"Let there be light" (per the KJV -- in Hebrew it actually says "YHY AOUR" -- be light!) does not explain where God himself/herself/themselves came from. So you cannot treat it as a literal beginning. Moses has not explained the beginning of God. Perhaps God did not want to tell us. Or perhaps Moses did not want us to know.

 

[Divine Wind]

With the explosion of the Singularity, all space time began. "Let there be light". So what caused the Singularity? What was before (despite the fact there really isn't a "before" where the beginning of time is concerned. We just don't have the language to say otherwise)

Before the Oscillating Universe theory was disproved, it was plausible to think in terms of "always". Now we cannot. The Universe had a definite beginning and we know it will have a cold, endlessness which never ends. Why? What are the external forces that are causal to the origin of our Universe? Why do most people get a sense there is something beyond physical reality? Most meaning about 98% of the human population throughout history.

I don't think it makes sense to take Moses' words too literally here.

He was just telling a story to 600 clans of Hebrews that he was leading out of Egypt.

As for his reason for making this story up, he probably wanted to impress upon them the need for them to obey laws and not murder each other at the drop of a hat.

Consider the necessity for the various commandments he gave them -- they were cursing, lying, cheating, stealing, adultering each other's wives, coveting each others goods, having sex with beasts, children, and same sex sex, etc. Egypt was a very corrupt place, like all civilizations.

"Let there be light" (per the KJV -- in Hebrew it actually says "YHY AOUR" -- be light!) does not explain where God himself/herself/themselves came from. So you cannot treat it as a literal beginning. Moses has not explained the beginning of God. Perhaps God did not want to tell us. Or perhaps Moses did not want us to know.

Agreed. So why the heartburn?

 

[yiostheoy]

Maybe I should have said fear and conditioning. Fear of the unknown. Fear of death. Fear of no longer existing. I know of no other animal than the human animal who has these fears and a need for a god to rule them.

It makes no sense to fear the status quo that has been in existence for billions of years.

Philosophy explains that consciousness is an existence that is proven per Rene Descartes, and not doubted per the modern Empiricists, and the argument for nonexistence or cessation of existence makes no sense.

It's just as Socrates said -- the next phase of existence must be more glorious even than this present one.

So fear of the future just because it is unknown is irrational.

 

[yiostheoy]

With the explosion of the Singularity, all space time began. "Let there be light". So what caused the Singularity? What was before (despite the fact there really isn't a "before" where the beginning of time is concerned. We just don't have the language to say otherwise)

Before the Oscillating Universe theory was disproved, it was plausible to think in terms of "always". Now we cannot. The Universe had a definite beginning and we know it will have a cold, endlessness which never ends. Why? What are the external forces that are causal to the origin of our Universe? Why do most people get a sense there is something beyond physical reality? Most meaning about 98% of the human population throughout history.

I don't think it makes sense to take Moses' words too literally here.

He was just telling a story to 600 clans of Hebrews that he was leading out of Egypt.

As for his reason for making this story up, he probably wanted to impress upon them the need for them to obey laws and not murder each other at the drop of a hat.

Consider the necessity for the various commandments he gave them -- they were cursing, lying, cheating, stealing, adultering each other's wives, coveting each others goods, having sex with beasts, children, and same sex sex, etc. Egypt was a very corrupt place, like all civilizations.

"Let there be light" (per the KJV -- in Hebrew it actually says "YHY AOUR" -- be light!) does not explain where God himself/herself/themselves came from. So you cannot treat it as a literal beginning. Moses has not explained the beginning of God. Perhaps God did not want to tell us. Or perhaps Moses did not want us to know.

Agreed. So why the heartburn?

The O/P's heartburn comes from ignorance of Philosophy.

He needs to read and study it.

He is the only one that can make himself smarter.

Criticizing basic Christianity and Judaism is not going to get him anywhere, motorcycle or not.

 

[yiostheoy]

Maybe I should have said fear and conditioning. Fear of the unknown. Fear of death. Fear of no longer existing. I know of no other animal than the human animal who has these fears and a need for a god to rule them.

You should have said that you picked up a Philosophy book and started reading in it.

And then you can say you understand Socrates, and Aristotle, and Aquinas, and Descartes, and Leibniz.

Then you would say "Now I understand! God created the best possible world for us that he could!"

 

[Divine Wind]

....So fear of the future just because it is unknown is irrational.

Agreed.

 

[Czernobog]

And in that we are in agreement. Also, as a matter of full disclosure, I should say that I do believe in divinity. I just reject the Christian conception of that divinity.

I do not believe that it is either omnipresent, nor omniscient. I also do not believe that it "demands" anything of creation. I do not believe divinity to be nearly so oppressive, nor petty. Nor do I believe it to be perfect. Pre-Christian societies recognised divinity to be capable of flaws, and even mistakes. So do I.

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Thanks for the background. Again, it's a matter of faith, of belief. While you reject the Christian concept of divinity, do you also reject all other concepts? Except witchery, obviously.

Like the previous martial arts analogy, religion, IMHO, is simply a style, a path to same end: spiritual growth, if not enlightenment. Yes, some people misuse it just as some misuse witchcraft, cars, alcohol, guns and anything else. All are simply tools, a means to an end, but some people forget about the end.

Perhaps when I said "reject", that may have been a bit..harsh. To say that I reject such concepts implies that I believe them to be incorrect. It would be more accurate to say that such concepts are incompatible with me, and my understanding of the cosmos. I would never presume to tell anyone else that their understanding of divinity is "wrong".

I remember reading something somewhere (I don't really remember where I read it) that I always liked:

"Truth is but a shattered mirror, and every one of us, possessing but a single shard, is convinced that we hold the whole"




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[ding]

I have concluded that human kind, for some reason (to which I have opinions) feel a need to belong. They believe they have to belong to something or they have no meaning or purpose. Religion is one of the biggest drawers for those who seek to belong to something. Political parties is another. Both are free and it costs nothing to join and feel connected to other like believing human beings. A person can 'fellowship' with a church 'brother' or 'sister', or create vote for __ signs with their fellow politician adorers. Of course this doesn't just apply to religion and politics, it applies to anything in which people join and claim to belong to.

You have made a very astute observation. This is not only true today, but it is true since the beginning of mankind. Therefore, we can only conclude it is a part of man's nature. So the question becomes, why? The simplest answer is that man is compulsive. Think of it like height... some of us are tall and some of us are short but we all have some degree of height, right. Same thing for compulsion, we all have some degree of it. Some more than others. That's why some of us are alcoholics or drug addicts or workaholics or sex addicts, etc. Most of us though choose to worship ourselves. And therein lies the problem. When we worship ourselves we become self centric and are unable to see reality because we keep skewing it with our self centric bias.

So... in effect we all worship something because it is in our nature to do so. Most of us worship ourselves, most of us only see what we want to see and few of us see things for how they really are. The only choice we have is in choosing what we will worship. We should all choose wisely.

I suspect it is conditioning and not nature that makes human beings feel a need to worship.

If that were the case it would not have been a constant throughout time.

Maybe I should have said fear and conditioning. Fear of the unknown. Fear of death. Fear of no longer existing. I know of no other animal than the human animal who has these fears and a need for a god to rule them.

Same answer... If that were the case it would not have been a constant throughout time.

 

[Buck111]

With the explosion of the Singularity, all space time began. "Let there be light". So what caused the Singularity? What was before (despite the fact there really isn't a "before" where the beginning of time is concerned. We just don't have the language to say otherwise)

Before the Oscillating Universe theory was disproved, it was plausible to think in terms of "always". Now we cannot. The Universe had a definite beginning and we know it will have a cold, endlessness which never ends. Why? What are the external forces that are causal to the origin of our Universe? Why do most people get a sense there is something beyond physical reality? Most meaning about 98% of the human population throughout history.

I don't think it makes sense to take Moses' words too literally here.

He was just telling a story to 600 clans of Hebrews that he was leading out of Egypt.

As for his reason for making this story up, he probably wanted to impress upon them the need for them to obey laws and not murder each other at the drop of a hat.

Consider the necessity for the various commandments he gave them -- they were cursing, lying, cheating, stealing, adultering each other's wives, coveting each others goods, having sex with beasts, children, and same sex sex, etc. Egypt was a very corrupt place, like all civilizations.

"Let there be light" (per the KJV -- in Hebrew it actually says "YHY AOUR" -- be light!) does not explain where God himself/herself/themselves came from. So you cannot treat it as a literal beginning. Moses has not explained the beginning of God. Perhaps God did not want to tell us. Or perhaps Moses did not want us to know.

Agreed. So why the heartburn?

The O/P's heartburn comes from ignorance of Philosophy.

He needs to read and study it.

He is the only one that can make himself smarter.

Criticizing basic Christianity and Judaism is not going to get him anywhere, motorcycle or not.

Philosophy is a study; it is not a conclusion. Philosophers do not answer the questions, they simply ponder the questions. There is nothing holy or superior in philosophy as it is not uncommon and is, to some degree, practiced by all of us. True philosophy takes a certain amount of discipline and humility. Something you seem to lack. I suggest, instead of you telling me to read a book (which I may have already read), you check your manners. You'll not get an adult debate by throwing around childish insults.

As I told you before, you do not know my credentials. So I am going to lay the relevant ones out for you:
1. I was an educator in a state penal institution for several years. I was not financially compensated for my investments of time and knowledge.
2. My job was to instruct and assist inmates to the point of being able to pass the GED tests. However, I also aided college students (inmates) in their courses. Among the courses I tutored in were, paralegal, sociology, business administration, accounting, religious studies, and, yes, philosophy.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
than are dreamt of in [y]our philosophy." - Shakespeare

 

[Divine Wind]

Perhaps when I said "reject", that may have been a bit..harsh. To say that I reject such concepts implies that I believe them to be incorrect. It would be more accurate to say that such concepts are incompatible with me, and my understanding of the cosmos. I would never presume to tell anyone else that their understanding of divinity is "wrong".

I remember reading something somewhere (I don't really remember where I read it) that I always liked:

"Truth is but a shattered mirror, and every one of us, possessing but a single shard, is convinced that we hold the whole"




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Thanks for the clarification.

Interesting quote. While I understand the sentiment, I'm also reminded of a fact about holograms. If you shatter a holographic mirror, each shard holds the whole picture.

As for religious points of view, I favor the "diamond facet theory"; Several people are sitting around a round table looking a single diamond. They each see the diamond through a single facet. What they see is truth, but it's only a single point of view. If they argue about their different views they are both right and wrong at the same time. The problem isn't their view, but their belief that only their view is correct.

 

[Mudda]

You mean the singularity that exploded into the Big Bang? Or something else?

With the explosion of the Singularity, all space time began. "Let there be light". So what caused the Singularity? What was before (despite the fact there really isn't a "before" where the beginning of time is concerned. We just don't have the language to say otherwise)

Before the Oscillating Universe theory was disproved, it was plausible to think in terms of "always". Now we cannot. The Universe had a definite beginning and we know it will have a cold, endlessness which never ends. Why? What are the external forces that are causal to the origin of our Universe? Why do most people get a sense there is something beyond physical reality? Most meaning about 98% of the human population throughout history.

Some people THINK the universe will have a "cold, endlessness which never ends." No actual proof though.

 

[Czernobog]

Perhaps when I said "reject", that may have been a bit..harsh. To say that I reject such concepts implies that I believe them to be incorrect. It would be more accurate to say that such concepts are incompatible with me, and my understanding of the cosmos. I would never presume to tell anyone else that their understanding of divinity is "wrong".

I remember reading something somewhere (I don't really remember where I read it) that I always liked:

"Truth is but a shattered mirror, and every one of us, possessing but a single shard, is convinced that we hold the whole"




Sent from my 5054N using Tapatalk

Thanks for the clarification.

Interesting quote. While I understand the sentiment, I'm also reminded of a fact about holograms. If you shatter a holographic mirror, each shard holds the whole picture.

As for religious points of view, I favor the "diamond facet theory"; Several people are sitting around a round table looking a single diamond. They each see the diamond through a single facet. What they see is truth, but it's only a single point of view. If they argue about their different views they are both right and wrong at the same time. The problem isn't their view, but their belief that only their view is correct.

I think it's the same concept. Everyone is convinced that they are in possession of the absolute whole of truth, when, in fact, everyone holds but a tiny share.

I become less impressed with even the concepts of absolutes, particularly in ethics, morality, and theology as I grow older. It seems the only people who hold to "absolute truths" are those who fanatically wish to require everyone to concede to their narrow views of reality.

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[Divine Wind]

I think it's the same concept. Everyone is convinced that they are in possession of the absolute whole of truth, when, in fact, everyone holds but a tiny share.

I become less impressed with even the concepts of absolutes, particularly in ethics, morality, and theology as I grow older. It seems the only people who hold to "absolute truths" are those who fanatically wish to require everyone to concede to their narrow views of reality.

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Not everyone. Not even most everyone. Please don't mistake the words of a few loudmouths for the majority.

 

[Divine Wind]

Some people THINK the universe will have a "cold, endlessness which never ends." No actual proof though.

The evidence indicates you are wrong. You, however, are free offer evidence refuting the links below:

The Big Crunch, the Big Freeze and the Big Rip - The Big Bang and the Big Crunch - The Physics of the Universe

Big Freeze - Universe Today
The Big Freeze, which is also known as the Heat Death, is one of the possible scenarios predicted by scientists in which the Universe may end. It is a direct consequence of an ever expanding universe. The most telling evidences, such as those that indicate an increasing rate of expansion in regions farthest from us, support this theory. As such, it is the most widely accepted model pertaining to our universe’s ultimate fate.

 

[BreezeWood]

Some people THINK the universe will have a "cold, endlessness which never ends." No actual proof though.

The evidence indicates you are wrong. You, however, are free offer evidence refuting the links below:

The Big Crunch, the Big Freeze and the Big Rip - The Big Bang and the Big Crunch - The Physics of the Universe

Big Freeze - Universe Today
The Big Freeze, which is also known as the Heat Death, is one of the possible scenarios predicted by scientists in which the Universe may end. It is a direct consequence of an ever expanding universe. The most telling evidences, such as those that indicate an increasing rate of expansion in regions farthest from us, support this theory. As such, it is the most widely accepted model pertaining to our universe’s ultimate fate.

.

It is a direct consequence of an ever expanding universe.

the Bang is cyclical, all matter is traveling, not expanding at a finite (angle) trajectory derived from the propulsion caused by the singularity eventually returning in unison to their origin recreating the compaction that will again ignite a "new" singularity. and is the composite for life and death's renewal without the necessity of a creator.

.

 

[Mudda]

Some people THINK the universe will have a "cold, endlessness which never ends." No actual proof though.

The evidence indicates you are wrong. You, however, are free offer evidence refuting the links below:

The Big Crunch, the Big Freeze and the Big Rip - The Big Bang and the Big Crunch - The Physics of the Universe

Big Freeze - Universe Today
The Big Freeze, which is also known as the Heat Death, is one of the possible scenarios predicted by scientists in which the Universe may end. It is a direct consequence of an ever expanding universe. The most telling evidences, such as those that indicate an increasing rate of expansion in regions farthest from us, support this theory. As such, it is the most widely accepted model pertaining to our universe’s ultimate fate.

It's is currently impossible to predict the future, let alone the very distant future. Maybe the universe starts to slow down in 100 billion years?

 

[Divine Wind]

the Bang is cyclical, all matter is traveling, not expanding at a finite (angle) trajectory derived from the propulsion caused by the singularity eventually returning in unison to their origin recreating the compaction that will again ignite a "new" singularity. and is the composite for life and death's renewal without the necessity of a creator.

.

So you correct and all leading science on the matter is wrong. Interesting.

 

[Divine Wind]

It's is currently impossible to predict the future, let alone the very distant future. Maybe the universe starts to slow down in 100 billion years?

I'm not an astrophysicist, but odds are they know more about this than you or me.

OTOH, math is math and physics is physics. Newton's laws of motion apply. Mass doesn't suddenly slow down and reverse direction without a reason. The science, as the links noted, indicates matter is accelerating as the Universe expands. Why is unknown, but there is no reason to think it would suddenly stop and reverse direction.

 

[Mudda]

It's is currently impossible to predict the future, let alone the very distant future. Maybe the universe starts to slow down in 100 billion years?

I'm not an astrophysicist, but odds are they know more about this than you or me.

OTOH, math is math and physics is physics. Newton's laws of motion apply. Mass doesn't suddenly slow down and reverse direction without a reason. The science, as the links noted, indicates matter is accelerating as the Universe expands. Why is unknown, but there is no reason to think it would suddenly stop and reverse direction.

You don't know if the universe is finite or not.