CDZ Is it Treason

[JakeStarkey]

Prove it; otherwise, it is your ignorant opinion only.

Current events, cause and effect.

Not at all. There has been no cause and effect, only your silly assertion.

Too funny. All things have cause and effect.

And that is why you have failed. Your non sequitur is based on a non-existent cause and effect. Nothing has happened.

Then why is Iran celebrating?

Ask them. Where is the cause and where is the effect?

 

[Syriusly]

if a citizen honestly believes that American power has been a source of evil in the world and acts to reduce that power in any way he or she can? I think that a large portion of our population considers patriotism to be an evil concept which must be undermined if we are ever going to achieve peaceful coexistence on our planet.

Is this profound ignorance/naivete an acceptable excuse for diminishing America and aiding our opponents?

What does the Constitution say?

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

If someone does the above it doesn't matter the reason or rational why

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

Current events, cause and effect.

Not at all. There has been no cause and effect, only your silly assertion.

Too funny. All things have cause and effect.

And that is why you have failed. Your non sequitur is based on a non-existent cause and effect. Nothing has happened.

Then why is Iran celebrating?

Ask them. Where is the cause and where is the effect?

Open your other eye, Polyphemus.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Not at all. There has been no cause and effect, only your silly assertion.

Too funny. All things have cause and effect.

And that is why you have failed. Your non sequitur is based on a non-existent cause and effect. Nothing has happened.

Then why is Iran celebrating?

Ask them. Where is the cause and where is the effect?

Open your other eye, Polyphemus.

And you give up. Noted and accepted.

 

[rightwinger]

We are very fortunate the Kinettas are not in charge.

Sensible DOD spending is not treason.

Well, the Islamists are certainly fortunate, both foreign and domestic.

Why....what military force to you think we need to fight Islam?

Never a question of whether the force is available. It's a question of leadership and use of force.

We are currently lacking it.

Actually, it takes leadership NOT to use force

 

[rightwinger]

rightwinger, et al,

I agree to a point that the US Armed Forces must be flexible to fulfill its mission roles. Having said that, you are confused as to the mission roles.

It is not the Mission of the US Armed Forces to be the "defender of the free world." No sovereign world organization has asked for that! That was a role that US Leadership assumed on its own and have place our nation at jeopardy at times. No Nation in the world contributes to the research and development to the US Armed Forces that is necessary to maintain the qualitative edge that gives America a decisive advantage in battle. No other nation in the world freely provides the US Armed Forces any foreign military aid to the US in a quantitatively fashion that permits America that dominations on the battlefield, control of the skies and superiority at sea; we pay for everything we get either monetarily or politically.

Our military needs to be flexible and fulfill its mission

right now, that mission is defender of the free world. There was a time we were the only ones who could fulfill that mission. Today the EU can do that mission in Europe and the Middle East while Japan and S Korea can do it in Asia

We need to stop being world policeman

(REFERENCEs)

Form the Official Web Sites:

Mission of the US Army: Regardless of component, The Army conducts both operational and institutional missions. The operational Army consists of numbered armies, corps, divisions, brigades, and battalions that conduct full spectrum operations around the world. (Operational Unit Diagram and descriptions) The institutional Army supports the operational Army. Institutional organizations provide the infrastructure necessary to raise, train, equip, deploy, and ensure the readiness of all Army forces. The training base provides military skills and professional education to every Soldier—as well as members of sister services and allied forces. It also allows The Army to expand rapidly in time of war. The industrial base provides world-class equipment and logistics for The Army. Army installations provide the power-projection platforms required to deploy land forces promptly to support combatant commanders. Once those forces are deployed, the institutional Army provides the logistics needed to support them.

Mission of the US Navy: The mission of the Navy is to maintain, train and equip combat-ready Naval forces capable of winning wars, deterring aggression and maintaining freedom of the seas.

Mission of the US Air Force: "The Air Force will continue to perform these missions so that our military can respond quickly and appropriately to unpredictable threats and challenges. Today, we call our core missions:

(1) air and space superiority;
(2)intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR);
(3) rapid global mobility;
(4) global strike; and
(5) command and control."
​

(COMMENT)

The appearance that the US is the "defender of the free world" comes from a political illusion wherein America jealously guards its Freedom of Navigation [(FON)(on the ground, in the air, and at sea)] a principle that protects American foreign commerce from the dominance of other nations; that America will not suffer interference from other states in the success of it commercial, industrial and monetary endeavors.

I agree that the US should not be the "world police." And I also agree that America should not extend or otherwise promote the idea that it is the "defender of the free world." Having said that, one must consider that the critical freedoms that have made America the second largest economy in the world must not be left in the hands of nations that have not proven themselves capable.

• List of countries by GDP (PPP) - Wikipedia, the free ...
  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)
  192 rows · It is however limited when comparing the size of national economies; GDPPPP is designed to compare the purchasing power of the citizens of ... Rank CountryGDP ...
  • Rank Country GDP (Billions of Int$)
    1 China 17,617.3
    2 United States 17,418.9
    3 India 7,375.9
    4 Japan 4,750.8
    See all 192 rows on en.wikipedia.org

• List of countries by GDP (nominal) - Wikipedia, the free ...
  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)
  192 rows · A map of world economies by size of GDP ... Comparisons of national …
  • Rank Country/Region GDP (Millions of US$)
    1 United States 17,418,925
    2 China 10,380,380

It must also be understood that the American Economy is not necessarily the best economy or the freest economy.

"The United States’ economic freedom score is 76.2, making its economy the 12th freest in the 2015 Index. Its score is 0.7 point higher than last year, with modest gains in six of the 10 economic freedoms, including control of government spending, outweighing a slight decline in business freedom.

Although the precipitous downward spiral in U.S. economic freedom since 2008 has come to a halt in the 2015 Index, a 1.6-point decline in overall economic freedom over the past five years reflects broad-based deteriorations in key policy areas, particularly those related to upholding the rule of law and limited government. Continuing to trail such comparable economies as Australia, New Zealand, Switzerland, and Canada, America has been ranked “mostly free” since 2010."​

Just as the leadership in Washington has failed the American People consistently over the last half century on the political-diplomatic-military front, so has it failed to reinvest in America in terms of education, scientific endeavors, research and development, commercially, industrially and maintaining the critical infrastructure (thus the reason for the drop from being #1 economy).

If the US wants to influence the world, first it has to be the best nation in the world, and the Washington Leadership has not yet transitioned from 20th Century thinking into a nation on the leading edge of the 21st Century.

Just my thought and perspective ---
Most Respectfully,
R

The U.S. Navy has always maintained to role to keep the shipping lanes open. That mission has been expanded to all services to protect US commercial interests around the world.

Reducing that role does not make us less safe or less free

 

[Tehon]

if a citizen honestly believes that American power has been a source of evil in the world and acts to reduce that power in any way he or she can? I think that a large portion of our population considers patriotism to be an evil concept which must be undermined if we are ever going to achieve peaceful coexistence on our planet.

Is this profound ignorance/naivete an acceptable excuse for diminishing America and aiding our opponents?

Or could it be that those who place patriotism above all, including common sense and rational thought are actually the ones who exhibit ignorance/naivete. Perhaps those in whom you try to impugn with this thread have your best interests in mind, and the best interests of our society, and only wish to awaken you to your naivete.

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

We are very fortunate the Kinettas are not in charge.

Sensible DOD spending is not treason.

Well, the Islamists are certainly fortunate, both foreign and domestic.

Why....what military force to you think we need to fight Islam?

Never a question of whether the force is available. It's a question of leadership and use of force.

We are currently lacking it.

Actually, it takes leadership NOT to use force

Isn't that what Neville said?

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

Too funny. All things have cause and effect.

And that is why you have failed. Your non sequitur is based on a non-existent cause and effect. Nothing has happened.

Then why is Iran celebrating?

Ask them. Where is the cause and where is the effect?

Open your other eye, Polyphemus.

And you give up. Noted and accepted.

Not at all. You merely missed the metaphor.

 

[rightwinger]

We are very fortunate the Kinettas are not in charge.

Sensible DOD spending is not treason.

Well, the Islamists are certainly fortunate, both foreign and domestic.

Why....what military force to you think we need to fight Islam?

Never a question of whether the force is available. It's a question of leadership and use of force.

We are currently lacking it.

Actually, it takes leadership NOT to use force

Isn't that what Neville said?

Who is the equivalent of Nazi Germany today and then we can discuss your Neville Chamberlain reference

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

Well, the Islamists are certainly fortunate, both foreign and domestic.

Why....what military force to you think we need to fight Islam?

Never a question of whether the force is available. It's a question of leadership and use of force.

We are currently lacking it.

Actually, it takes leadership NOT to use force

Isn't that what Neville said?

Who is the equivalent of Nazi Germany today and then we can discuss your Neville Chamberlain reference

Islamism in all its forms, and its supporters.

 

[rightwinger]

Why....what military force to you think we need to fight Islam?

Never a question of whether the force is available. It's a question of leadership and use of force.

We are currently lacking it.

Actually, it takes leadership NOT to use force

Isn't that what Neville said?

Who is the equivalent of Nazi Germany today and then we can discuss your Neville Chamberlain reference

Islamism in all its forms, and its supporters.

OK......which nations have been annexed or invaded by Islam?
In terms of global military strength, where does Islam stand?

It was you who made the Nazi reference

 

[RoccoR]

rightwinger, et al,

Some people would agree with you.

The U.S. Navy has always maintained to role to keep the shipping lanes open. That mission has been expanded to all services to protect US commercial interests around the world.

Reducing that role does not make us less safe or less free

(COMMENT)

A prolonged peacekeeping mission or nation building operation does not add to the safety of the US.

However, reducing the Freedom of Navigation [(FON)(on the ground, in the air, and at sea)] can make the US more vulnerable; depending on the potential of an adversary to exploit the reduction in force projecting and response time.

These types of decisions depend on the ability of the US to make an accurate risk assessment. In the last three decades, the US Intelligence Community has not demonstrated any improvements in the estimation of intentions and capabilities of our adversaries. And even much worse, the US Congress could not have damaged our nations counterintelligence services more more so if they actually had been working on behalf of our adversaries. Thus, the less effective our foreign intelligence and counterintelligence services, the more prepared and flexible our military response has to be in order to make-up for those shortcomings; unless you are willing to accept surrendering the strategic and tactical advantage to a hostile opponent willing to take advantage of Congressional and Executive leadership weaknesses.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

rightwinger, et al,

This is not the proper approach.

OK......which nations have been annexed or invaded by Islam?
In terms of global military strength, where does Islam stand?

It was you who made the Nazi reference

(COMMENT)

Current contemporary issues relative to Islamic Leadership aggression have been noted.

Currently, DAESH (AKA: Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant ISIS/ISIL) is on the move.
The Sunni-Shia conflict in the Middle East (their rivalry is settled will likely shape the political balance between Sunnis and Shias and the future of the region, especially in Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Bahrain, and Yemen).
The various Arab Spring movements

Not to mention the fact that the Hashemite Kingdom invaded the West Bank and annexed it in April 1950. Or the Egyptian takeover of the Gaza Strip in the same timeframe, dissolving the All Palestine Government in 1959, and installing an Egyptian Military Governorship.

Now, by comparison, the Arab Islamic states have been no less or no more troublesome in the cause of conquest and revolution than any of the other significant Empires; but they certainly have not been much in terms of the peace loving nations of the world. Nor have they contributed much to the advancement of humanity in the last millennium.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[JakeStarkey]

And that is why you have failed. Your non sequitur is based on a non-existent cause and effect. Nothing has happened.

Then why is Iran celebrating?

Ask them. Where is the cause and where is the effect?

Open your other eye, Polyphemus.

And you give up. Noted and accepted.

Not at all. You merely missed the metaphor.

No metaphor exists, only a poor non sequitur. As well as a false derivative analogy implication fallacy.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The most incorrect statement of the day, other than Billy's sillies: "the US Congress could not have damaged our nations counterintelligence services more more so if they actually had been working on behalf of our adversaries."

Our defense forces are in good shape, and our nation is well protected against traditional and cyber enemies. The real threat remains sneaky home-grown terrorists, and that is best approached as a LEO issue.

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

Never a question of whether the force is available. It's a question of leadership and use of force.

We are currently lacking it.

Actually, it takes leadership NOT to use force

Isn't that what Neville said?

Who is the equivalent of Nazi Germany today and then we can discuss your Neville Chamberlain reference

Islamism in all its forms, and its supporters.

OK......which nations have been annexed or invaded by Islam?
In terms of global military strength, where does Islam stand?

It was you who made the Nazi reference

I did not say Islam. I said Islamism. Do you not know the difference?

The Nazis started off as a group of barflies.

 

[RoccoR]

JakeStarkey, et al,

The implication that "our nation is well protected" (being kept safe from harm or injury) can NOT be more inaccurate in terms of the mission goals and objectives that were being discussed in the context of the posting. But that is what debate is all about.

The most incorrect statement of the day, other than Billy's sillies: "the US Congress could not have damaged our nations counterintelligence services more more so if they actually had been working on behalf of our adversaries."

Our defense forces are in good shape, and our nation is well protected against traditional and cyber enemies. The real threat remains sneaky home-grown terrorists, and that is best approached as a LEO issue.

(COMMENT)

The defense against "tradition" (traditional and cyber enemies) attacks is not the same as clandestine and/or covert asymmetric threats. And the domestic issues (LEAs and LEOs, jurisdiction) is not the same as the international threat to which Post #74 was remotely addressing; the Armed Forces do not generally address domestic threat issues [(Posse Comitatus 18 U.S. Code § 1385)(with the exception of a very few IC members (FBI DHS are example), most FI and CI Activities are not Law Enforcement)] that do not have a direct affiliation with DoD. Both the FBI and DHS are seriously under-founded; and DHS is relatively segmented. And Office of the Director of National Intelligence (ODNI) is merely another layer of bureaucracy on top of a indecisive association of top heavy organizations to start with; operationally DNI did not lend any better management to a system that was already in cascade failure.

To address you internal domestic type threat, excluding terrorism for the moment, and focusing on other issues having an impact on foreign intelligence and the separate and discrete discipline of counterintelligence, I would like to add this quote:

Governments and institutions of many kinds have faced the danger of hostile acts by insiders from time immemorial. In the case of the US government, such hostile acts have included betrayals by employees who supplied secrets to hostile powers, committed sabotage, and fatally attacked fellow employees. After each of these events investigators produced reports which, in 20/20 hindsight, assessed the damage and demonstrated that warnings of risks had been missed. These case-based, “One should have seen the writing on the wall” exercises often produce increased awareness and some revisions in policies and practices in screening, adjudication, and risk assessment. But when these cases are reviewed in depth, it becomes clear that a lack of appreciation exists for the factors that increase the risk that insiders will undertake hostile acts against their organizations. SOURCE: Application of the Critical-Path Method to Evaluate Insider Risks Eric Shaw and Laura Sellers --- Studies in Intelligence Vol 59, No. 2 (UNCLAS Extracts, June 2015) ​

This is not something that LEOs are at all equipped to address by any stretch of the imagination.

The reason that I separated terrorism out of the discussion is because that counterterrorism (CT) has almost become a fish of its own, and not following the school of fish from which it originally came. And those that have worked counterintelligence (CI)(50 USC §401a) but specialized in CT have a a separate and distinct problem set from CI, as CI is a separate and distinct from the remainder of foreign intelligence (FI)(still in §401a).

TITLE 50—WAR AND NATIONAL DEFENSE

(2) The term ‘‘foreign intelligence’’ means information relating to the capabilities, intentions, or activities of foreign governments or elements thereof, foreign organizations, or foreign persons, or international terrorist activities.

(3) The term ‘‘counterintelligence’’ means information gathered, and activities conducted, to protect against espionage, other intelligence activities, sabotage, or assassinations conducted by or on behalf of foreign governments or elements thereof, foreign organizations, or foreign persons, or international terrorist activities.
​

In this regard, I would like to quote of of Dr Ursula M. Wilder's observations:

For leaders who have experienced failure to protect the public, the guilt and anger are profound; one noted that after a failure it became hard to keep an open mind to experimental and creative political solutions. Several noted that the ethical conundrums are particularly difficult in CT policy work, and leaders are often required to choose “the least bad option.” Terrorism can sap the optimism and buoyancy of those who lead the effort to counter it because they must always choose among negative options. Finally, several noted the irony that the more power one has, the more helpless one feels. One reported, with some humor, that he was told by those tasked to execute his policy to “please stop calling and asking for updates” because it was distracting and interrupted their “flow.”
SOURCE: Inside the Inferno --- Counterterrorism Professionals Reflect on Their Work --- Studies in Intelligence Vol 58, No. 4 (UNCLAS Extracts, December 2014)
​

CT and Offensive Cyber Warfare is anything by "traditional." It is about as untraditional as one can get. In fact it is so untraditional that the United Nations has been unable to even put forth an acceptable definition for "terrorism" in any kind of usable form. It is so confusing that even the Court of the European Union (EU) has ruled that the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), who's Covenant clearly states that "[t]here is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad (Article 13)," be removed from the EU Designated Terrorist List.

EU court rules Hamas should be taken off terror list
Palestinian fighters of the Ezz Al-Din Al Qassam militia, the military wing of Hamas, attend a rally to commemorate the 27th anniversary of Hamas militant group in Gaza City on Dec. 14, 2014. (Photo: Mohammed Saber, European Press photo Agency) A top ...
USA Today · 12/17/2014
​

Yes, there is a distinction between what I was addressing, and what you are referring to in terms of LEO domestic operations, protection and enforcement. CT is something that cannot be easily discussed in a limited forum such as this.

Again,

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

That said, our most dangerous enemies are domestic and are busy undermining us on the world stage.

There is nothing in America more Orwellian than the Democratic Party and its intent.

I would remind you that it is the Republicans who gave us the DHS, the TSA, the secret FISA courts, and the illegal NSA domestic surveillance programs.

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

That said, our most dangerous enemies are domestic and are busy undermining us on the world stage.

There is nothing in America more Orwellian than the Democratic Party and its intent.

I would remind you that it is the Republicans who gave us the DHS, the TSA, the secret FISA courts, and the illegal NSA domestic surveillance programs.

No different than FDR locking up the Japanese.

In times of war, certain changes are necessary.