Is it Possible for Israel and Palestine to Peacefully Coexist?

[Hector12]

Okay and you think that about them.

Who is doing the killing? You!

I am not killing anyone.

 

[Lisa558]

I am not killing anyone.

You have to understand the “logic” of antisemites. First, they assume anyone who sides with Israel is Jewish. And second, since Israel is defending itself against Islamic terrorists who want to wipe it off the map, and since he thinks you’re Jewish, he says “you” are killing them.

It’s the same thing as if a white man stopped a black man on the street and accused him of looting Target.

 

[ESay]

And you believe this will create conditions where the people of Gaza no longer feel "occupied". Or just not "occupied" by Israel?

Do you believe Egypt, Jordan, and the Gulf states will be reliable in preventing importation of weapons?

For clarity, I don't hate this idea, but feel it is perhaps optimistic on all fronts, and it depends on Israel trusting state and non-state actors with Israel's security.

I don't know how they feel, and I don't know what partners these states will be. Though, if they are not reliable, then why Israel was signing agreements with them. The only other option is a constant occupation of the Strip. If Israel thinks it their best choice, then okay.

 

[ESay]

Well, the Arabs can deny reality and international law all they want, but it doesn't make it objectively true. So, let's get back to the objective reality of borders in 1948.

Israel also ignores the UNSC resolutions that themselves have an international law status. And what 'objective reality of 1948 borders' do you want to talk?

 

[ESay]

Well, if "guys in hats" is to be interpreted as Jews (which is reductive and insulting), we'd have to talk about what is meant by "desecration". I think you are implying that the mere presence of a mosque on the site of the Temple Mount is, of itself, a desecration.

Not the Jews as a whole, but their Orthodox part. And yes, I am implying that these guys who don't use electricity in the shabbat and put a wire over their neighbourhoods because God 'forbids' them to set a fire and travel on this day will hardly tolerate a foreign cult in their holy place.

 

[ESay]

When Arab Muslims are in control of the holy sites we witness severe restrictions (no access to the Kotel or the Tomb of the Patriarchs 1948-1967, no full access now to the Temple Mount or Joseph's Tomb

I am almost sure this has something to do with stripping them of their land (as they think) by creating Israel.

 

[Shusha]

I don't know how they feel, and I don't know what partners these states will be. Though, if they are not reliable, then why Israel was signing agreements with them. The only other option is a constant occupation of the Strip. If Israel thinks it their best choice, then okay.

There are only two options here. Self-determination or some sort of "occupation". The question is what the people of Gaza want. And who they will accept as "occupiers" since they seem unable to govern on their own.

 

[Shusha]

Israel also ignores the UNSC resolutions that themselves have an international law status. And what 'objective reality of 1948 borders' do you want to talk?

I want to talk about the actual objective reality of the borders that existed in 1948 when Israel declared independence in concordance with international law.

 

[Shusha]

I am almost sure this has something to do with stripping them of their land (as they think) by creating Israel.

Well, no. Read what I wrote again. When Arabs/Muslims are in control of a site which is holy to Jews, access is denied to the Jewish people. When the Jewish people control the holy site access is assured to everyone.

 

[ESay]

There are only two options here. Self-determination or some sort of "occupation". The question is what the people of Gaza want. And who they will accept as "occupiers" since they seem unable to govern on their own.

I think that the "international committee' I mentioned above will be accepted by them. I want to clarify that this committee shouldn't be a governing body, but rather a supervisory one.

 

[ESay]

I want to talk about the actual objective reality of the borders that existed in 1948 when Israel declared independence in concordance with international law.

Clarify what 'objective reality' you want to talk about. Can you say definitely? What I should do at this point? Show a map with the partition plan? 'Palestine' was divided on patches - three patches were supposed to go to the Arabs, another three - to the Jews. What should I add?

 

[ESay]

Well, no. Read what I wrote again. When Arabs/Muslims are in control of a site which is holy to Jews, access is denied to the Jewish people. When the Jewish people control the holy site access is assured to everyone.

Well, if the whole of the Mount is considered as an area of two mosques there, then the Arabs may deny entry to non-Muslims. Their property, their rules. But I suppose it is not only about Jews, the Christians would have also been denied entry there.

 

[Shusha]

Well, if the whole of the Mount is considered as an area of two mosques there, then the Arabs may deny entry to non-Muslims. Their property, their rules. But I suppose it is not only about Jews, the Christians would have also been denied entry there.

Then you should have no argument against Jewish property, Jewish rules. Whoever controls the property, controls the rules. If that is the game you want to play, then you have to play it.

 

[Shusha]

Clarify what 'objective reality' you want to talk about. Can you say definitely? What I should do at this point? Show a map with the partition plan? 'Palestine' was divided on patches - three patches were supposed to go to the Arabs, another three - to the Jews. What should I add?

Objective reality. The objective reality. Yes, I can say definitively. According to the international law and objective reality at the time - in 1948 - what were the actual borders of Israel and/or "Palestine"? It is not a trick question. There is a real answer here.

 

[ESay]

Then you should have no argument against Jewish property, Jewish rules. Whoever controls the property, controls the rules. If that is the game you want to play, then you have to play it.

A while ago, when I became interested in Judaism, the Noahide movement I had a conversation here with an Orthodox Jewish guy from Israel. And I asked him why they are so keen in rebuilding the Temple in a form and traditions that existed way and way ago. I said maybe it was the time to turn Judaism into really a universal worldwide religion and build the Temple that wouldn't be a temple per se, but rather a worldwide center for Judaism and the Noahides, religious studies and debate, a center for humanitarian help around the world. He said that no, no way, the Temple must be the temple as it was many generations ago.

Well, why I brought up that? It is their way and their life, and yes their rules. If they want to start a war, maybe even a big war, for a place where they can pray and burn meat, if they want to remain a nation and religion in itself and for their own - it is their choice, their life, and their rules. Good luck with that. But don't get surprised why this stance doesn't look so appealing for others.

 

[ESay]

Objective reality. The objective reality. Yes, I can say definitively. According to the international law and objective reality at the time - in 1948 - what were the actual borders of Israel and/or "Palestine"? It is not a trick question. There is a real answer here.

It seems that I really should to post a map.

The orange part was supposed to be the Jewish state (Israel). The green part was supposed to be the Arab state. And yes, it was in 1947, by bad.

 

[ShahdagMountains]

It seems that I really should to post a map.

View attachment 1073589

The orange part was supposed to be the Jewish state (Israel). The green part was supposed to be the Arab state. And yes, it was in 1947, by bad.

Here’s the Arab state, originally earmarked for Eretz.

I

 

[Lisa558]

There are only two options here. Self-determination or some sort of "occupation". The question is what the people of Gaza want. And who they will accept as "occupiers" since they seem unable to govern on their own.

1) How can we trust what the people of Gaza want? The majority were in full support of the Oct 7th massacre of innocent Jews, and have been indoctrinated since toddlerhood to see killing Jews as an admirable goal.

2) As you mention, the Gazans have shown themselves incapable of self-governance. They need the Jews to supply such basics as water and electricity since they can’t seem to provide it for themselves.

The only two options I see are:

1) Condition foreign aid to Egypt on their accepting in their fellow Arabs. I realize nobody wants these hateful people, but wouldn’t it make more sense for an Arab country to take them in?

2) They remain in Gaza, but with a strong Israeli presence - with military near the border.

 

[Hector12]

It seems that I really should to post a map.

View attachment 1073589

The orange part was supposed to be the Jewish state (Israel). The green part was supposed to be the Arab state. And yes, it was in 1947, by bad.

When the Arabs tried to destroy the Jewish State, they gave the Jews the right to conquer all of Palestine and turn it into Israel. That is what they did.

 

[Lisa558]

A while ago, when I became interested in Judaism, the Noahide movement I had a conversation here with an Orthodox Jewish guy from Israel. And I asked him why they are so keen in rebuilding the Temple in a form and traditions that existed way and way ago. I said maybe it was the time to turn Judaism into really a universal worldwide religion and build the Temple that wouldn't be a temple per se, but rather a worldwide center for Judaism and the Noahides, religious studies and debate, a center for humanitarian help around the world. He said that no, no way, the Temple must be the temple as it was many generations ago.

Well, why I brought up that? It is their way and their life, and yes their rules. If they want to start a war, maybe even a big war, for a place where they can pray and burn meat, if they want to remain a nation and religion in itself and for their own - it is their choice, their life, and their rules. Good luck with that. But don't get surprised why this stance doesn't look so appealing for others.

Hey, antisemite: you got that wrong. It’s the Islamists who want to take over the world. The Jews just want to be left in peace.