Is It A Provocation To Knock Down Those N. Korean Missles?

[Eightball]

Now before you react to quickly, here's what the title of my post meant.

Some folks in the news media actually, I really mean this, actually have questioned whether or not we should knock down those N. Korean long range missles with our new anti-missle defense system. They have actually questioned whether the act of doing this would be a provocation against the N. Koreans?

I ask those great liberal intellects(Poli-Sci Majors) of the News Media this: What is the alternative? Let a Taep-dong incinerate a U.S. city as the alternative. Then what?

Well, of course they wouldn't want that to happen would they? Remember we are under the heavy media blanket of the ex-"Make Love not War" genre of the 70's who have graduated to ironed shirts, neck ties and business suits to give legitimacy to their callings.

To them, this is a legitimate question. They have taken a semi-biblical view of "turning the other cheek", and have replaced "fist/hand" with "Taep-dong" multi-stage, nuclear armed intercontinental ballistic missle.

Isn't it wonderful to have these folks watching-out for your collective lives through their caring, global view, of group hugginess to all.

I still remember these potentially beautiful minds being destroyed with LSD, Free Sex, and Ecstacy; creating a world for themselves that was akin to the old ostrich burying it's head in a hole, while all hell was breaking loose around them.

3 million Cambodians could be slaughtered, but these warped intellects only saw their own country as the aggressor against the innocent.

Selective empathy, typified their lives, as myriads of political, religious, and philosophical dissentors around the world were butchered, they continued there mantra, of anti-authoritarianism. "America could do no good, the rest of the world could do no wrong.".
*
So we come back to N. Korea again. We have here a country that rattles it's collective swords in our face. It plays dangerous games with their missle arsenal in both the Sea of Japan and China, and now potentially in the Eastern Pacific(That's us!). A large portion of the media, would like us to believe that N. Korea is actually the one who is on the defensive, and that the U.S. is in some convoluted way the aggressor.

Back during the Cold War Days, both Democrats and Republicans all agreed that the way to thwart the Soviet Super Power was to counter their aggressive anti-U.S. nuclear arsenal, was to match and even exceed them so that at no time would the U.S.S.R. consider a first-strike option against us. No one in the media back then would even consider questioning the U.S.'s response if the Soviets had committed a first-act provocation. In fact if a Soviet intercontinental ballistic missle was test fired anywhere near or towards our nation, that was considered a war-provocation. The Soviets new that, and didn't shoot any missles towards our nation in any test mode. They knew that we would react with overwhelming might.

Well, here we are today. We are forced into the "appease" mode by the left. We are supposed to try and understand our enemys and have empathy for their plight, and why they act belligerently towards us. We metaphorically are supposed to hand the mugger/burglar all our possessions, as we don't understand their pitiful plight of life.

We Americans are fat, and drunk with wealth, and calloused hearts. We deserve to be "shellac-ed" up one side and down another. We rape the resources of the world for our own greedy wants, and now we have the "gall" to actually provoke N. Korea by blasting one of their "hell" bound missles menacingly headed towards our Nation/continent.

We need to lie down and suffer for our survivalist attitude in the midst of such wealth. Not!!!

Maybe our greatest enemy(s) isn't N. Korea, but actually those that claim to be Americans out of one side of their mouths, and "dish" their country out ot the other side. Seems that there's a hypocrisy here. "I'm a patriot, but, oh, how I abhor this nation!!".
*
You won't find a reference link for the above as this was all from Eightball's convoluted mind. lol... I'm sure the libs have an internment camp in the Utah desert, waiting for me in a few years when they get back Congress, the Supreme Court, and the White House.

 

[theHawk]

And what happens if our missle defense fails? Then the North Koreans will be emboldened and claim a 'victory' over the US.

We should be blasting these things off their launch pads.

 

[acludem]

I don't understand why Dubya hasn't launched a war against North Korea. They are, and have been for the last decade, a far greater threat than Saddam ever was. Their leader is completely nuts and, unlike Saddam, has absolutely nothing to lose (because there is absolutely nothing of value in that country).

I would support a war against North Korea.

acludem

 

[no1tovote4]

I don't understand why Dubya hasn't launched a war against North Korea. They are, and have been for the last decade, a far greater threat than Saddam ever was. Their leader is completely nuts and, unlike Saddam, has absolutely nothing to lose (because there is absolutely nothing of value in that country).

I would support a war against North Korea.

acludem

Under what pretext? That they say they have Nukes? Honestly, what would the reason for war be against N. Korea?

As for the originating question... No, we shouldn't attempt to knock down their missiles, not because it would be provocation, but because their secondary launches are only to cover their previous failure. Instead we should be pointing our fingers and laughing, they have egg on their face.

 

[Eightball]

Under what pretext? That they say they have Nukes? Honestly, what would the reason for war be against N. Korea?

As for the originating question... No, we shouldn't attempt to knock down their missiles, not because it would be provocation, but because their secondary launches are only to cover their previous failure. Instead we should be pointing our fingers and laughing, they have egg on their face.

Don't shoot them down. Let them practice and practice and hone their stuff so they can have formidable weapon.

Now we just have to decide when their next missle is the one that works, ok. Right?

 

[theHawk]

I don't understand why Dubya hasn't launched a war against North Korea. They are, and have been for the last decade, a far greater threat than Saddam ever was. Their leader is completely nuts and, unlike Saddam, has absolutely nothing to lose (because there is absolutely nothing of value in that country).

I would support a war against North Korea.

acludem

And when Japan or Alaska gets nuked you can all blame Bush and grab more seats in the house!

 

[Mr. P]

Don't shoot them down. Let them practice and practice and hone their stuff so they can have formidable weapon.

Now we just have to decide when their next missle is the one that works, ok. Right?

So how much information do you think we gained on the stage of development in their missile program, by watching these failed tests? My guess is a lot.
How much more will we learn from the second round? Much more, including verification of the first test data IMO.

In the end we will know just how close they are to success. At that point an informed decision can be made. A cruise will wipe out their missile while it sits on the pad. Until then why bother? We have many pans in the fire right now.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Given that their guidance systems are crap and they don't have any payload beyond conventional HE, and they can't fit their nukes on them...Not to mention that Chimpy's "Missile Shield" has only worked a couple of times under VERY controlled conditions, it's really a moot point.

We also have to consider that by attacking the only non-nuclear memebr of Chimpy's famous "Axis of Evil" (<i>who writes his crap anyways?</i>), Iraq, North Korea and Krazy Kim could make a somewhat credible argument that they restarted their nuclear weapons program to deter US aggression. Iran, if they actually fessed up to their program can make the same argument. Especially given that they share a border with Iraq.

 

[Mr. P]

Given that their guidance systems are crap and they don't have any payload beyond conventional HE, and they can't fit their nukes on them...Not to mention that Chimpy's "Missile Shield" has only worked a couple of times under VERY controlled conditions, it's really a moot point.

We also have to consider that by attacking the only non-nuclear memebr of Chimpy's famous "Axis of Evil" (<i>who writes his crap anyways?</i>), Iraq, North Korea and Krazy Kim could make a somewhat credible argument that they restarted their nuclear weapons program to deter US aggression. Iran, if they actually fessed up to their program can make the same argument. Especially given that they share a border with Iraq.

yup

 

[Bullypulpit]

I don't understand why Dubya hasn't launched a war against North Korea. They are, and have been for the last decade, a far greater threat than Saddam ever was. Their leader is completely nuts and, unlike Saddam, has absolutely nothing to lose (because there is absolutely nothing of value in that country).

I would support a war against North Korea.

acludem

You might support a war against North Korea...But doesn't South Korea have any say in the matter? After all, it's South Korea that would become the killing field should the North Korean army come spilling across the DMZ. We are talking about one of the world's most robust economies being laid waste, you know.

 

[Annie]

Given that their guidance systems are crap and they don't have any payload beyond conventional HE, and they can't fit their nukes on them...Not to mention that Chimpy's "Missile Shield" has only worked a couple of times under VERY controlled conditions, it's really a moot point.

We also have to consider that by attacking the only non-nuclear memebr of Chimpy's famous "Axis of Evil" (<i>who writes his crap anyways?</i>), Iraq, North Korea and Krazy Kim could make a somewhat credible argument that they restarted their nuclear weapons program to deter US aggression. Iran, if they actually fessed up to their program can make the same argument. Especially given that they share a border with Iraq.

Iran does not have nukes, yet. NK hasn't a way to deliver them, so how is that a deterent?

I wonder just why under your perspective, Clinton did not attack NK, prior to development? Oh yeah, he was 'surprised', right.

While there is much to argued about the way Iraq has been dealt with I do think it is probably a better example of 'handling a crisis' than further talks with NK and even possibly Iran are at this time.

My guess, GW is going to turn NK over to Rice and UN. Same with Iran, down the road is going to be very interesting with 20/20.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Iran does not have nukes, yet. NK hasn't a way to deliver them, so how is that a deterent?

I wonder just why under your perspective, Clinton did not attack NK, prior to development? Oh yeah, he was 'surprised', right.

While there is much to argued about the way Iraq has been dealt with I do think it is probably a better example of 'handling a crisis' than further talks with NK and even possibly Iran are at this time.

My guess, GW is going to turn NK over to Rice and UN. Same with Iran, down the road is going to be very interesting with 20/20.

Since the Agreed Framework between the United States of America and the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, signed in October of 1994, broke down completely on Chimpy's watch in 2003, to once again point the finger at Goatboy for Chimpy's failure is simply absurd.

Prior to Chimpy's election in 2000, there were one-on-one negotioations with North Korea by Goatboy's administration, with appreciable results. After Chimpy McPresident came to office, talks stalled, and after 9/11, the issue took a new tack when he gave his "Axis of Evil" speech. Which was followed by Chimpy's announcement of the policy of "pre-emptive war" against foreign powers it thought to be developing WMD's.

For a more detailed history of this issue, I direct you here:

<center><a href=http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2002_12/sigal_dec02.asp>Arms Control Association</a></center>

While events have passed this article by, it still provides a good background upon which to judge current events.

It was this administration's utter and abject failures in this matter which have led us to the impasse we now face. Attempts to blame others are simply poor attempts to mask the facts of the matter, and even poorer attempts at historical revisionism.

As for Condi handling North Korea, given how she botched her job as National Security Advisor prior to 9/11, I wouldn't trust her to clean the office.

 

[Annie]

Since the Agreed Framework between the United States of America and the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, signed in October of 1994, broke down completely on Chimpy's watch in 2003, to once again point the finger at Goatboy for Chimpy's failure is simply absurd.

Prior to Chimpy's election in 2000, there were one-on-one negotioations with North Korea by Goatboy's administration, with appreciable results. After Chimpy McPresident came to office, talks stalled, and after 9/11, the issue took a new tack when he gave his "Axis of Evil" speech. Which was followed by Chimpy's announcement of the policy of "pre-emptive war" against foreign powers it thought to be developing WMD's.

For a more detailed history of this issue, I direct you here:

<center><a href=http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2002_12/sigal_dec02.asp>Arms Control Association</a></center>

It was this administration's utter and abject failures in this matter which have led us to the impasse we now face. Attempts to blame others are simply poor attempts to mask the facts of the matter, and even poorer attempts at historical revisionism.

As for Condi handling North Korea, given how she botched her job as National Security Advisor prior to 9/11, I wouldn't trust her to clean the office.

The 'agreement' that Bubba had with North Korea, is what got us in this mess, which as you can see is why he said, what he said, in 2002. Of course, Clinton tries to leave the impression that he was 'cleaning up' from previous administrations:

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/12/15/nkorea.us/index.html

Clinton 'had plans to attack N. Korea reactor'

ROTTERDAM, The Netherlands --Former U.S. President Bill Clinton says he had plans in the early 1990s to attack and destroy North Korea's nuclear facilities after the secretive communist state was found to be producing weapons-grade plutonium.

At the time, he said, North Korea had plans to produce between six and eight nuclear weapons per year.

"We actually drew up plans to attack North Korea and to destroy their reactors and we told them we would attack unless they ended their nuclear program," Clinton told a security forum in the Dutch port city of Rotterdam Sunday.

"We were in a very intense situation," he said.

His statement came days after North Korea announced that it planned to restart its nuclear reactor after Clinton's successor, President George W. Bush, announced he was halting supplies of fuel oil to the country.

The United States had been providing North Korea with the oil under the terms of a 1994 agreement, ending the first crisis over the North's suspected weapons program.

Under the deal, known as the Agreed Framework, the North had agreed to mothball its reactor and abandon efforts to construct nuclear weapons, pending the construction of two advanced reactors that do not produce weapons-grade material.

However, in October North Korean officials told a visiting U.S. delegation they had continued with their weapons program in contravention of the deal.
Highest bidder

Last week Pyongyang said it planned to restart its nuclear reactor to cover the energy shortfall created by the cutting of fuel supplies.

Commenting on the North Korean announcement, Clinton said the move made it imperative that Pyongyang be persuaded or forced to halt its weapons program.

"Make no mistake about it, it has to be ended," Clinton said.

"You do not want North Korea making bombs and selling them to the highest bidder because they cannot feed themselves through the winter," he added.

However, he said it was more likely North Korea would use the nuclear issue to bargain for more aid rather than put weapons on the market.

The former president's comments came as ranking U.S. Republican and Democrat senators warned that the worsening standoff with North Korea could become dangerous and should not be ignored simply because of tensions with Iraq.

Republican Senator Richard Lugar, the incoming chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and Senator Joseph Lieberman, a Democrat, called for stronger diplomatic efforts to overcome a recent breakdown in agreements aimed at freezing North Korea's nuclear weapons program.

"I think we're in danger as a result of the Bush administration policy towards North Korea of turning a situation which is difficult into one which is quite dangerous," Lieberman said on ABC's This Week. "We cannot have a nuclear North Korea. That is a danger."
'Very dangerous'

"North Korea is very dangerous, and we cannot miscalculate, because the effects upon South Korea and the neighborhood are great," Lugar said.

"And they are developing ... missilery that could reach us," he added. "I think we have to recognize that."

Both senators urged renewed negotiations with Pyongyang, and said Washington should not threaten it with military action, which Lieberman said would be "unwise."

"I think we're at a point now where each side ... seems to be trying to be more macho than the other," he said. "And when you do that, you can end up in a war that you didn't really mean to get into."

Both agreed that postponing action on North Korea and focusing on Iraq was not a good idea.

"We really have to be in negotiations; we have to be talking," Lugar said. "I think the idea that we can handle one thing at a time is clearly not the case."

"I don't think we can wait," Lieberman said. "As much as I support what we're doing in Iraq, I don't think we can say, 'North Korea, forget about it until we're done with this.'"

Clinton sent, 'drumroll....' Jimmy Carter' to negotiate with Kim at the height of the 'crisis' and you speak of Rice?!! (Which I happen to agree with you about, at least today. I think for probably a myriad of reasons, she should go): http://www.cartercenter.org/doc221.htm

http://www.cartercenter.org/doc221.htm

President Carter met with South Korean leaders and North Korean President Kim Il Sung (above) in June 1994, paving the way for an accord to ease international fears about a possible North Korean nuclear threat.

Building on the resumption of talks brokered in June by former President Jimmy Carter, the United States and North Korea signed an agreement this fall that was a major step toward ending 40 years of hostility and easing international fears about a possible nuclear buildup in the North.

In announcing the pact, U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Bob Gallucci thanked President Carter for restarting the negotiations that led to the October agreement. "President Carter played a key role," he said, in averting sanctions and in reopening the dialogue between Washington and Pyongyang.

and we know what followed.

So Bully, there is enough blame and enough presidents to spread it around. I must say though, I'll take Rice over Alduh any year you would like. I wish James Baker weren't too old for that office right now, we could use him.

 

[Bullypulpit]

The 'agreement' that Bubba had with North Korea, is what got us in this mess, which as you can see is why he said, what he said, in 2002. Of course, Clinton tries to leave the impression that he was 'cleaning up' from previous administrations:

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/12/15/nkorea.us/index.html


Clinton sent, 'drumroll....' Jimmy Carter' to negotiate with Kim at the height of the 'crisis' and you speak of Rice?!! (Which I happen to agree with you about, at least today. I think for probably a myriad of reasons, she should go): http://www.cartercenter.org/doc221.htm

http://www.cartercenter.org/doc221.htm


and we know what followed.

So Bully, there is enough blame and enough presidents to spread it around. I must say though, I'll take Rice over Alduh any year you would like. I wish James Baker weren't too old for that office right now, we could use him.

Yes, there is sufficient blame to go around 50 years worth or so. However, responsibility for our current impasse can be rested, foursquare, on the doorstep of Chimpy and his half-assed cowboy diplomacy.

 

[Annie]

Yes, there is sufficient blame to go around 50 years worth or so. However, responsibility for our current impasse can be rested, foursquare, on the doorstep of Chimpy and his half-assed cowboy diplomacy.

Bully, not often I say this to you, that is so much horseshit....

 

[Bullypulpit]

Bully, not often I say this to you, that is so much horseshit....

Then, I fear dear lady, we must agree to disagree in this matter.

 

[Gunny]

Now before you react to quickly, here's what the title of my post meant.

Some folks in the news media actually, I really mean this, actually have questioned whether or not we should knock down those N. Korean long range missles with our new anti-missle defense system. They have actually questioned whether the act of doing this would be a provocation against the N. Koreans?

I ask those great liberal intellects(Poli-Sci Majors) of the News Media this: What is the alternative? Let a Taep-dong incinerate a U.S. city as the alternative. Then what?

Well, of course they wouldn't want that to happen would they? Remember we are under the heavy media blanket of the ex-"Make Love not War" genre of the 70's who have graduated to ironed shirts, neck ties and business suits to give legitimacy to their callings.

To them, this is a legitimate question. They have taken a semi-biblical view of "turning the other cheek", and have replaced "fist/hand" with "Taep-dong" multi-stage, nuclear armed intercontinental ballistic missle.

Isn't it wonderful to have these folks watching-out for your collective lives through their caring, global view, of group hugginess to all.

I still remember these potentially beautiful minds being destroyed with LSD, Free Sex, and Ecstacy; creating a world for themselves that was akin to the old ostrich burying it's head in a hole, while all hell was breaking loose around them.

3 million Cambodians could be slaughtered, but these warped intellects only saw their own country as the aggressor against the innocent.

Selective empathy, typified their lives, as myriads of political, religious, and philosophical dissentors around the world were butchered, they continued there mantra, of anti-authoritarianism. "America could do no good, the rest of the world could do no wrong.".
*
So we come back to N. Korea again. We have here a country that rattles it's collective swords in our face. It plays dangerous games with their missle arsenal in both the Sea of Japan and China, and now potentially in the Eastern Pacific(That's us!). A large portion of the media, would like us to believe that N. Korea is actually the one who is on the defensive, and that the U.S. is in some convoluted way the aggressor.

Back during the Cold War Days, both Democrats and Republicans all agreed that the way to thwart the Soviet Super Power was to counter their aggressive anti-U.S. nuclear arsenal, was to match and even exceed them so that at no time would the U.S.S.R. consider a first-strike option against us. No one in the media back then would even consider questioning the U.S.'s response if the Soviets had committed a first-act provocation. In fact if a Soviet intercontinental ballistic missle was test fired anywhere near or towards our nation, that was considered a war-provocation. The Soviets new that, and didn't shoot any missles towards our nation in any test mode. They knew that we would react with overwhelming might.

Well, here we are today. We are forced into the "appease" mode by the left. We are supposed to try and understand our enemys and have empathy for their plight, and why they act belligerently towards us. We metaphorically are supposed to hand the mugger/burglar all our possessions, as we don't understand their pitiful plight of life.

We Americans are fat, and drunk with wealth, and calloused hearts. We deserve to be "shellac-ed" up one side and down another. We rape the resources of the world for our own greedy wants, and now we have the "gall" to actually provoke N. Korea by blasting one of their "hell" bound missles menacingly headed towards our Nation/continent.

We need to lie down and suffer for our survivalist attitude in the midst of such wealth. Not!!!

Maybe our greatest enemy(s) isn't N. Korea, but actually those that claim to be Americans out of one side of their mouths, and "dish" their country out ot the other side. Seems that there's a hypocrisy here. "I'm a patriot, but, oh, how I abhor this nation!!".
*
You won't find a reference link for the above as this was all from Eightball's convoluted mind. lol... I'm sure the libs have an internment camp in the Utah desert, waiting for me in a few years when they get back Congress, the Supreme Court, and the White House.

Knock 'em down. Who cares if it provokes Kim il Punk? What's he going to do? Fire more missiles that fail at us?

 

[acludem]

South Korea would love us to go in an get rid of that nutcase. He's a bigger threat to them than anyone else is. They are making nice with each other, but I guarantee you, the South Koreans would love nothing better than to Kim Il Jong run out of North Korea on a rail. Then perhaps democracy could take root there and Korea could once again be united.

If Iraq was enough of a threat to launch a war against, than North Korea certainly is, and you don't have to deal with religious wars, insurgency, and large land areas there. George Bush has grounds to attack North Korea, they launched missles in the direction of our allies in Japan. They are a major threat to Hawaii.

George Bush is failing to protect our country from a dangerous dictatorship, while he spends massive resources and many brave soldiers lives, in trying to clean up after toppling a dictator who was absolutely no danger to the U.S. This like letting a massive cut in your finger fester because you're too busy fixing a hangnail.

acludem

 

[rtwngAvngr]

South Korea would love us to go in an get rid of that nutcase. He's a bigger threat to them than anyone else is. They are making nice with each other, but I guarantee you, the South Koreans would love nothing better than to Kim Il Jong run out of North Korea on a rail. Then perhaps democracy could take root there and Korea could once again be united.

If Iraq was enough of a threat to launch a war against, than North Korea certainly is, and you don't have to deal with religious wars, insurgency, and large land areas there. George Bush has grounds to attack North Korea, they launched missles in the direction of our allies in Japan. They are a major threat to Hawaii.

George Bush is failing to protect our country from a dangerous dictatorship, while he spends massive resources and many brave soldiers lives, in trying to clean up after toppling a dictator who was absolutely no danger to the U.S. This like letting a massive cut in your finger fester because you're too busy fixing a hangnail.

acludem

Are any dems advocating we invade N. Korea? Is it just you?

 

[acludem]

I'm not promoting invasion per se, I'm pointed out that under the George (Chimpy McPresident) Bush foreign policy, we should invade. According to dubya, if we decide you're a threat to our country, whether you've actually threatened us or not, we should invade, eliminate your government and destroy your infrastructure, then go on a bizillion dollar rebuilding spree led by Halliburton.

That being said, I honestly wouldn't have much problem with invading North Korea. I would hope we wouldn't have to, but if this guy insists on launching nukes at Hawaii, I'm not sure we won't have a choice.

acludem