Is homosexuality a choice, a mental illness or something simply inherent?

[Inevitable]

Why are you pointing out something I already posted? What does it have to do with the fact that monozygotic twins have identical DNA, and your claim that they can still get different genes? You do understand that epigenetics, if valid, is about how the same genes develop differently, don't you?

In other words, you are wrong, just admit you made a stupid mistake and move on.

I have heard others claim you were being intentionally obtuse but had never seen it till now. I said that homosexuality is genetic. You said it's not and posted a study in support of what you said that actually supported me. Then you bring up the twins issue and once again I post a study that shows how epigenetic factors CAN TURN GENES ON AND OFF AFTER BIRTH and that sails right over your head.

Like I said. You don't understand even the basics so until you learn something you're merely wasting mine and everyone else's time. It's YOU who refuses to learn something new QW. Not me, and not anyone else who has posted here except for the religious nutters.

I'm unconvinced sexual behaviours are genetic. I htink we toor eadilt accept claims that a given inclination has a genetic source. My concern lies in that if such n such a behaviour has a genetic cause, then isn't genetic engineering away those genes inevitible? If homosexuality is genetic, aren't people going to ask for genetic engineered children minus that gene, or with it toggled 'off?'

Who we have sexual relations with is the result of our making a choice. The attraction though is different. But given all-male/female groups like in prison, otherwise perfectly heterosexual people will have sex with members of their own sex because that their only option. They're making a deliberate choice to have sex. May not be their first choice, but their ability to have orgasm or climaxes from it reveals that at least genes aren't solely involved. Conscious will plays a big part as well. And the willingness to 'make due' is the result of conditioning, not anything biological/genetic.

I don't know that it's genetic, I happen to thinkany number of causes are possible, perhaps combinations of causes could be the culprit. But you must understand this, bisexuals have the choice, prisoners don't, I guess you could say heterosexuals and homosexuals have a choice but it's hard to make it work if you aren't into it.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Can condition people to do anything, up to and especially including commit mass murder (ask Hitler.) By comparison, sexuality is a weekends worth of work.

 

[Inevitable]

Can condition people to do anything, up to and especially including commit mass murder (ask Hitler.) By comparison, sexuality is a weekends worth of work.

The ability to brainwash a person doesn't really fit your dialogue. If sexuality was merely a choice you wouldn't need such measures to talk you out of it.

Talking someone into doing something that it's out of their nature isn't at all like them doing something intheir nature.

 

[Katzndogz]

What causes any compulsive behavior? It's not genetics. There is nothing about genetics that causes a man to be turned on by watching women wearing high heel shoes stomp small animals to death, but some men are turned on by that.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

But where is that nature coming from? We're all raised by other people who're imparting their natures onto us in the process. If we were raised alone on a desert island without even animals to witness behaviours from then we could see what our true natue is (assuming that were possible which it isn't.) So when we raise kids who eventually hit puberty and their bodies begin producing larger amounts of sexual hormones intiating desire to have sex, they've been conditioned for some years to think certain ways about sexuality. I'd think then that 5% of the ones raised to be heterosexual (as most everyone is but for a few exceptions perhaps) that identify as homosexual or at least not strictly heterosexual are overriding their conditioning by thinking independently. And maybe that's the variable. Rather than sexual behaviour having a genetic trigger, maybe raising kids to be more indepent-minded leads to some to experiment with homosexual behaviours, some realize they like it even more than hetero, and then id that way. Whereas more dependent-minded obvediant types stick to how they were taught repressing the natural curiousity for experimentation. I experimented with an out co-worker and realized both had their appeal. I was also taught to be very independent and self-reliant. So while my Mom emphasized heterosexuality, I had enough will to find out for myself.

 

[Inevitable]

What causes any compulsive behavior? It's not genetics. There is nothing about genetics that causes a man to be turned on by watching women wearing high heel shoes stomp small animals to death, but some men are turned on by that.

Fetishes are typically acquired, being that homosexuals tend to cohabitate, become involved in romantic relationships sometimes even abstaining from sexual contact until it isdeemed appropriate, it doesn't seem reasonable to equate it to merely something that you getyour jollies from. That tends to be the staple mischaracterization from people that argue against homosexuality.

 

[G.T.]

But where is that nature coming from? We're all raised by other people who're imparting their natures onto us in the process. If we were raised alone on a desert island without even animals to witness behaviours from then we could see what our true natue is (assuming that were possible which it isn't.) So when we raise kids who eventually hit puberty and their bodies begin producing larger amounts of sexual hormones intiating desire to have sex, they've been conditioned for some years to think certain ways about sexuality. I'd think then that 5% of the ones raised to be heterosexual (as most everyone is but for a few exceptions perhaps) that identify as homosexual or at least not strictly heterosexual are overriding their conditioning by thinking independently. And maybe that's the variable. Rather than sexual behaviour having a genetic trigger, maybe raising kids to be more indepent-minded leads to some to experiment with homosexual behaviours, some realize they like it even more than hetero, and then id that way. Whereas more dependent-minded obvediant types stick to how they were taught repressing the natural curiousity for experimentation. I experimented with an out co-worker and realized both had their appeal. I was also taught to be very independent and self-reliant. So while my Mom emphasized heterosexuality, I had enough will to find out for myself.

You know how some gay persons have a different speech inflection and body language?

I've witnessed that in a child, lispy gay voice / girly seeming demeanor - - - - - straight brothers and sisters....................


who then grew up and came out as gay.

Nobody can ever convince me that it's not something *most homosexuals are born with since I've seen a child "act gay" before their sexuality was even present in their life, and then magically was gay when they were older.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

The 'gay accent' is a myth. I've known many Southerners with it who were hetereosexual. And Senator Lindsey Graham has it but is seemingly heterosexual too.

 

[Inevitable]

But where is that nature coming from? We're all raised by other people who're imparting their natures onto us in the process. If we were raised alone on a desert island without even animals to witness behaviours from then we could see what our true natue is (assuming that were possible which it isn't.) So when we raise kids who eventually hit puberty and their bodies begin producing larger amounts of sexual hormones intiating desire to have sex, they've been conditioned for some years to think certain ways about sexuality. I'd think then that 5% of the ones raised to be heterosexual (as most everyone is but for a few exceptions perhaps) that identify as homosexual or at least not strictly heterosexual are overriding their conditioning by thinking independently. And maybe that's the variable. Rather than sexual behaviour having a genetic trigger, maybe raising kids to be more indepent-minded leads to some to experiment with homosexual behaviours, some realize they like it even more than hetero, and then id that way. Whereas more dependent-minded obvediant types stick to how they were taught repressing the natural curiousity for experimentation. I experimented with an out co-worker and realized both had their appeal. I was also taught to be very independent and self-reliant. So while my Mom emphasized heterosexuality, I had enough will to find out for myself.

People don't become heterosexual/homosexual because they get the opportunity to fool around. sexuality drives them to fool around. Nature is what cannot be man made itcomes from evolution, nurture isn't nature those two things I think you have confused.

 

[G.T.]

The 'gay accent' is a myth. I've known many Southerners with it who were hetereosexual. And Senator Lindsey Graham has it but is seemingly heterosexual too.

It wasn't just that, but there WAS that.

It was much more then that.

 

[Inevitable]

The 'gay accent' is a myth. I've known many Southerners with it who were hetereosexual. And Senator Lindsey Graham has it but is seemingly heterosexual too.

There is body language though it is subtle it dose not lie.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

But where is that nature coming from? We're all raised by other people who're imparting their natures onto us in the process. If we were raised alone on a desert island without even animals to witness behaviours from then we could see what our true natue is (assuming that were possible which it isn't.) So when we raise kids who eventually hit puberty and their bodies begin producing larger amounts of sexual hormones intiating desire to have sex, they've been conditioned for some years to think certain ways about sexuality. I'd think then that 5% of the ones raised to be heterosexual (as most everyone is but for a few exceptions perhaps) that identify as homosexual or at least not strictly heterosexual are overriding their conditioning by thinking independently. And maybe that's the variable. Rather than sexual behaviour having a genetic trigger, maybe raising kids to be more indepent-minded leads to some to experiment with homosexual behaviours, some realize they like it even more than hetero, and then id that way. Whereas more dependent-minded obvediant types stick to how they were taught repressing the natural curiousity for experimentation. I experimented with an out co-worker and realized both had their appeal. I was also taught to be very independent and self-reliant. So while my Mom emphasized heterosexuality, I had enough will to find out for myself.

You know how some gay persons have a different speech inflection and body language?

I've witnessed that in a child, lispy gay voice / girly seeming demeanor - - - - - straight brothers and sisters....................


who then grew up and came out as gay.

Nobody can ever convince me that it's not something *most homosexuals are born with since I've seen a child "act gay" before their sexuality was even present in their life, and then magically was gay when they were older.

Our sexuality is with us from our mothers' wombs onwards as invitro video has revealed with our masturbating. Or at least spending a lot of time fondling our genitals. The belief that a child doesn't become sexual until puberty or even later is completely wrong. I was masturbating to climax from about 6 (or whatever age I was when still wearing Batman pajammas.)

 

[Inevitable]

But where is that nature coming from? We're all raised by other people who're imparting their natures onto us in the process. If we were raised alone on a desert island without even animals to witness behaviours from then we could see what our true natue is (assuming that were possible which it isn't.) So when we raise kids who eventually hit puberty and their bodies begin producing larger amounts of sexual hormones intiating desire to have sex, they've been conditioned for some years to think certain ways about sexuality. I'd think then that 5% of the ones raised to be heterosexual (as most everyone is but for a few exceptions perhaps) that identify as homosexual or at least not strictly heterosexual are overriding their conditioning by thinking independently. And maybe that's the variable. Rather than sexual behaviour having a genetic trigger, maybe raising kids to be more indepent-minded leads to some to experiment with homosexual behaviours, some realize they like it even more than hetero, and then id that way. Whereas more dependent-minded obvediant types stick to how they were taught repressing the natural curiousity for experimentation. I experimented with an out co-worker and realized both had their appeal. I was also taught to be very independent and self-reliant. So while my Mom emphasized heterosexuality, I had enough will to find out for myself.

You know how some gay persons have a different speech inflection and body language?

I've witnessed that in a child, lispy gay voice / girly seeming demeanor - - - - - straight brothers and sisters....................


who then grew up and came out as gay.

Nobody can ever convince me that it's not something *most homosexuals are born with since I've seen a child "act gay" before their sexuality was even present in their life, and then magically was gay when they were older.

Our sexuality is with us from our mothers' wombs onwards as invitro video has revealed with our masturbating. Or at least spending a lot of time fondling our genitals. The belief that a child doesn't become sexual until puberty or even later is completely wrong. I was masturbating to climax from about 6 (or whatever age I was when still wearing Batman pajammas.)

this really cuts against your previous posts where you mentioned sexuality is nurtured.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Not really. Masturbation may be considered wholly sexual, but you could reason it's no more different than scratching an itchy arm. Minus another person maybe masturbation isn't so much a sexual behaviour we're taught but simply satisfying a need we're all born with. Whereas choosing to be sexual with other people is of course a sexual behaviour, and who we choose to do those behaviours with is the result of nurture. Or to be fair, maybe I'm completely wrong. Anyone who can't conceed they might be wrong isn't worth listening to.

 

[Inevitable]

Not really. Masturbation may be considered wholly sexual, but you could reason it's no more different than scratching an itchy arm. Minus another person maybe masturbation isn't so much a sexual behaviour we're taught but simply satisfying a need we're all born with. Whereas choosing to be sexual with other people is of course a sexual behaviour, and who we choose to do those behaviours with is the result of nurture. Or to be fair, maybe I'm completely wrong. Anyone who can't conceed they might be wrong isn't worth listening to.

Okay, yes we choose to do those behaviors, but do we choose who we are attracted to?

 

[G.T.]

But where is that nature coming from? We're all raised by other people who're imparting their natures onto us in the process. If we were raised alone on a desert island without even animals to witness behaviours from then we could see what our true natue is (assuming that were possible which it isn't.) So when we raise kids who eventually hit puberty and their bodies begin producing larger amounts of sexual hormones intiating desire to have sex, they've been conditioned for some years to think certain ways about sexuality. I'd think then that 5% of the ones raised to be heterosexual (as most everyone is but for a few exceptions perhaps) that identify as homosexual or at least not strictly heterosexual are overriding their conditioning by thinking independently. And maybe that's the variable. Rather than sexual behaviour having a genetic trigger, maybe raising kids to be more indepent-minded leads to some to experiment with homosexual behaviours, some realize they like it even more than hetero, and then id that way. Whereas more dependent-minded obvediant types stick to how they were taught repressing the natural curiousity for experimentation. I experimented with an out co-worker and realized both had their appeal. I was also taught to be very independent and self-reliant. So while my Mom emphasized heterosexuality, I had enough will to find out for myself.

You know how some gay persons have a different speech inflection and body language?

I've witnessed that in a child, lispy gay voice / girly seeming demeanor - - - - - straight brothers and sisters....................


who then grew up and came out as gay.

Nobody can ever convince me that it's not something *most homosexuals are born with since I've seen a child "act gay" before their sexuality was even present in their life, and then magically was gay when they were older.

Our sexuality is with us from our mothers' wombs onwards as invitro video has revealed with our masturbating. Or at least spending a lot of time fondling our genitals. The belief that a child doesn't become sexual until puberty or even later is completely wrong. I was masturbating to climax from about 6 (or whatever age I was when still wearing Batman pajammas.)

6 is freakish, it highly doubt it's anywhere NEAR any norm.

There is a 0% chance the person that I'm speaking about was not born gay. Anecdotal and all, but there is NO chance,

and add in myself to the anecdote - there is a 0% chance I could "choose" to get a boner for a male. It's not possible. Just like I didn't "choose" my arousal for women, it just was. My brain wasn't telling me to react consciously, it was inherent.

 

[Inevitable]

You know how some gay persons have a different speech inflection and body language?

I've witnessed that in a child, lispy gay voice / girly seeming demeanor - - - - - straight brothers and sisters....................


who then grew up and came out as gay.

Nobody can ever convince me that it's not something *most homosexuals are born with since I've seen a child "act gay" before their sexuality was even present in their life, and then magically was gay when they were older.

Our sexuality is with us from our mothers' wombs onwards as invitro video has revealed with our masturbating. Or at least spending a lot of time fondling our genitals. The belief that a child doesn't become sexual until puberty or even later is completely wrong. I was masturbating to climax from about 6 (or whatever age I was when still wearing Batman pajammas.)

6 is freakish, it highly doubt it's anywhere NEAR any norm.

There is a 0% chance the person that I'm speaking about was not born gay. Anecdotal and all, but there is NO chance,

and add in myself to the anecdote - there is a 0% chance I could "choose" to get a boner for a male. It's not possible. Just like I didn't not "choose" my arousal for women, it just was. My brain wasn't telling me to react consciously, it was inherent.

I was only a little older when I started. It's not uncommon for prepubescent children to play with their genitals, Sigmund Freud studied that.

Delta is bisexual, I have dated bisexuals in the past and they do seem to have a bitof difficulty understanding "monosexuals"

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Not really. Masturbation may be considered wholly sexual, but you could reason it's no more different than scratching an itchy arm. Minus another person maybe masturbation isn't so much a sexual behaviour we're taught but simply satisfying a need we're all born with. Whereas choosing to be sexual with other people is of course a sexual behaviour, and who we choose to do those behaviours with is the result of nurture. Or to be fair, maybe I'm completely wrong. Anyone who can't conceed they might be wrong isn't worth listening to.

Okay, yes we choose to do those behaviors, but do we choose who we are attracted to?

I don't think who we're attracted to involves much choice, or at least, not conscious choice. Think whatever cues are present resulting in being attracted romantically are subtle and all but unnoticeable. Takes more than a pretty face to fall in love and pledge yourself to being with only them afterall. If it were conscious then wouldn't blind people not be falling in love?

 

[Asclepias]

Why are you pointing out something I already posted? What does it have to do with the fact that monozygotic twins have identical DNA, and your claim that they can still get different genes? You do understand that epigenetics, if valid, is about how the same genes develop differently, don't you?

In other words, you are wrong, just admit you made a stupid mistake and move on.

I have heard others claim you were being intentionally obtuse but had never seen it till now. I said that homosexuality is genetic. You said it's not and posted a study in support of what you said that actually supported me. Then you bring up the twins issue and once again I post a study that shows how epigenetic factors CAN TURN GENES ON AND OFF AFTER BIRTH and that sails right over your head.

Like I said. You don't understand even the basics so until you learn something you're merely wasting mine and everyone else's time. It's YOU who refuses to learn something new QW. Not me, and not anyone else who has posted here except for the religious nutters.

I'm unconvinced sexual behaviours are genetic. I htink we toor eadilt accept claims that a given inclination has a genetic source. My concern lies in that if such n such a behaviour has a genetic cause, then isn't genetic engineering away those genes inevitible? If homosexuality is genetic, aren't people going to ask for genetic engineered children minus that gene, or with it toggled 'off?'

Who we have sexual relations with is the result of our making a choice. The attraction though is different. But given all-male/female groups like in prison, otherwise perfectly heterosexual people will have sex with members of their own sex because that their only option. They're making a deliberate choice to have sex. May not be their first choice, but their ability to have orgasm or climaxes from it reveals that at least genes aren't solely involved. Conscious will plays a big part as well. And the willingness to 'make due' is the result of conditioning, not anything biological/genetic.

Its definitely your genes or the way your genes are expressed. There are several studies out that claim this. I'm thinking expression makes the most sense because identical twins can have different sexual orientations. Still that invalidates it being a choice.

http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/33773/title/Can-Epigenetics-Explain-Homosexuality-/

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Our sexuality is with us from our mothers' wombs onwards as invitro video has revealed with our masturbating. Or at least spending a lot of time fondling our genitals. The belief that a child doesn't become sexual until puberty or even later is completely wrong. I was masturbating to climax from about 6 (or whatever age I was when still wearing Batman pajammas.)

6 is freakish, it highly doubt it's anywhere NEAR any norm.

There is a 0% chance the person that I'm speaking about was not born gay. Anecdotal and all, but there is NO chance,

and add in myself to the anecdote - there is a 0% chance I could "choose" to get a boner for a male. It's not possible. Just like I didn't not "choose" my arousal for women, it just was. My brain wasn't telling me to react consciously, it was inherent.

I was only a little older when I started. It's not uncommon for prepubescent children to play with their genitals, Sigmund Freud studied that.

Delta is bisexual, I have dated bisexuals in the past and they do seem to have a bitof difficulty understanding "monosexuals"

True in my case as I htink about it. I have the same difficulty 'getting' strict heterosexuals as I do strict homosexuals. Sex first and foremost is a matter of pleasure, and having two sexes (generally speaking, there's more of course as with hermaphrodites) means that that sexual pleasure can be had different ways. Why limit yourself to only one? Until the terms heterosexual/homosexual came about we didn't really limit ourself as in ancient Greece and Rome.